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Oni Triad	Posted - 2009.02.25 23:07:00 - [1] Simple question : Why does CCP intend to charge 14.95 euro? This is wrong. Why? Because 1 US dollar =/= 1 Euro World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Warhammer OnLine (just to name a few) use standard conversion like 14.99 US Dollars or 12.99 Euros What the hell CCP?
Lucas Tigh East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.25 23:08:00 - [2] Maybe they're bitter about Iceland's economy going the way of your trolling skills.
Oni Triad	Posted - 2009.02.25 23:09:00 - [3] I'm gonna laugh when they will touch the GTC forum with something like "700 mil Isk normal fee / 850 mil Isk for EU players" -_-
Captain Pompous Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It	Posted - 2009.02.25 23:09:00 - [4] So just because other companies use dynamic conversion means CCP has to as well? Yes, my name is Pompous. Yes, this has been designed for maximum deliberate effect. Sweet disclaimer eh
Lucas Tigh East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.25 23:14:00 - [5] Edited by: Lucas Tigh on 25/02/2009 23:13:59 Originally by: Captain Pompous So just because other companies use dynamic conversion means CCP has to as well? After seeing your post, I am suddenly compelled to vote for you in the next CSM election. Edit: formatting fail
Captain Pompous Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It	Posted - 2009.02.25 23:14:00 - [6] Originally by: Lucas Tigh Edited by: Lucas Tigh on 25/02/2009 23:13:59 Originally by: Captain Pompous So just because other companies use dynamic conversion means CCP has to as well? After seeing your post, I am suddenly compelled to vote for you in the next CSM election. Edit: formatting fail Smashing :) The mind control works! Yes, my name is Pompous. Yes, this has been designed for maximum deliberate effect. Sweet disclaimer eh
Ms Delerium	Posted - 2009.02.25 23:19:00 - [7] Originally by: Oni Triad I'm gonna laugh when they will touch the GTC forum with something like "700 mil Isk normal fee / 850 mil Isk for EU players" -_- you obviously dont get it. There is a universal currency for eve players: the ISK. But we are talking about real life here. 1Ç is more than 1$, so the 14.95$ should be converted into 11Ç or something like that.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.02.25 23:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Oni Triad Simple question : Why does CCP intend to charge 14.95 euro? This is wrong. Why? Because 1 US dollar =/= 1 Euro World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Warhammer OnLine (just to name a few) use standard conversion like 14.99 US Dollars or 12.99 Euros What the hell CCP? here is a thread which may help you This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
Akor Flandres	Posted - 2009.02.26 00:16:00 - [9] VAT
Strikeclone The Steel Ravens	Posted - 2009.02.26 00:24:00 - [10] EU players are charges around 40% more than the rest of the world because of the EU VAT rules which state that certain services provided through the internet elecctronically are subject to VAT which is assesed at the rate of the consumers country. As a UK player my VAT rate is 15% (reverting to 17.5% at the end of the year) which means I would be over charged by at least twice my VAT rate over and above the rest of the world. Rather than post on Eve forums and thuse receive the obligatory "blah blah your a troll blah blah" brainless reply I petitioned CCP and as a result have also sent an inquiry to HMRC regarding the EU VAT laws application to online gaming when no real money is involved (ie gambling). "Peace through the application of superior firepower"
Agent Unknown Caldari Fist of Eargon	Posted - 2009.02.26 00:32:00 - [11] You could always pay in USD...convert through Paypal then send it through. Easy enough...right? At least, I think that method works. ----------------------------------- "What can go wrong, will go wrong."
Jacharian Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.26 00:44:00 - [12] The VAT-thing is kinda funny, despite the fact that it's a virtually unheard of practice quite a few people simply bend over and assume it's the true reason. I'm not going to be dragged into a flame-war over a few dollars, but come on :-) It's more likely that the powers that be at CCP have looked at whether lowering the EU price or increasing the US price would increase their total expected earnings, and come up with a negative. This is a game about cut-throat business though, so why not?
Strikeclone The Steel Ravens	Posted - 2009.02.26 02:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Agent Unknown You could always pay in USD...convert through Paypal then send it through. Easy enough...right? At least, I think that method works. Unfortunately its not as simple as this, CCP is saying that the price increase for EU residents is due to the fact of living in the EU and EU VAT laws. It has nothing to do with the currency used to pay subscription fees and everything to do with location of the player. When asked why there is such a large difference between the amount EU players are forced to pay and the amount of VAT they may be required to pay CCP will only say its down to exchange rates. This to me rings hollow, if online gaming such as Eve and WoW and other mmorpgs are subject to EU VAT laws regarding electronic services then how is it that both WoW and LotRo are actually cheaper for EU players paying in pounds/Euros than it is for the rest of the world paying in US Dollars. Surely then the same should hold true for Eve...something is very wrong here I feel and I eagerly await the reply from the HMRC... "Peace through the application of superior firepower"
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.26 02:24:00 - [14] If you work in the Euro, you make Euros. Pay in damn Euros. If you work in the US, you make $. Pay in $ GTF over it. If you want to find your own method to take advantage of this, feel free. --
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.02.26 03:13:00 - [15] Damnit...why has no one posted this yet? Sig is now EVE related. Happy mods?
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.02.26 03:25:00 - [16] Originally by: Strikeclone Unfortunately its not as simple as this, CCP is saying that the price increase for EU residents is due to the fact of living in the EU and EU VAT laws. It has nothing to do with the currency used to pay subscription fees and everything to do with location of the player. When asked why there is such a large difference between the amount EU players are forced to pay and the amount of VAT they may be required to pay CCP will only say its down to exchange rates. This to me rings hollow, if online gaming such as Eve and WoW and other mmorpgs are subject to EU VAT laws regarding electronic services then how is it that both WoW and LotRo are actually cheaper for EU players paying in pounds/Euros than it is for the rest of the world paying in US Dollars. Surely then the same should hold true for Eve...something is very wrong here I feel and I eagerly await the reply from the HMRC... Interesting, post updates when you get it. As for WoW/LotRo/WAR etc, they have respective US and EU divisions afaik. EVE = Iceland (albeit servers in England, we're talking about the company/transactions here). I'm guessing that's why VAT kicks in and messes things up for EVE but not in the other games? Originally by: Marcus Druallis If you work in the Euro, you make Euros. Pay in damn Euros. If you work in the US, you make $. Pay in $ GTF over it. If you want to find your own method to take advantage of this, feel free. Ignorance ftw? Not all europeans have Euro, hell not even all EU-members has it. -
Jacharian Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.26 03:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Marcus Druallis If you work in the Euro, you make Euros. Pay in damn Euros. If you work in the US, you make $. Pay in $ GTF over it. If you want to find your own method to take advantage of this, feel free. I LOL'ed.
Agent Unknown Caldari Fist of Eargon	Posted - 2009.02.26 03:54:00 - [18] Originally by: Khemul Zula Damnit...why has no one posted this yet? Your smileys are effective, if not crude ----------------------------------- "What can go wrong, will go wrong."
Jhoria Englside	Posted - 2009.02.26 04:23:00 - [19] so you will honestly point out in other MMO's you get off easy yet in this game you end up paying more, as a change...and your complaining? GB2WoW for cheap subs. Srius Bisnis
EliteSlave Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.26 04:59:00 - [20] Originally by: Strikeclone EU players are charges around 40% more than the rest of the world because of the EU VAT rules which state that certain services provided through the internet elecctronically are subject to VAT which is assesed at the rate of the consumers country. As a UK player my VAT rate is 15% (reverting to 17.5% at the end of the year) which means I would be over charged by at least twice my VAT rate over and above the rest of the world. Rather than post on Eve forums and thuse receive the obligatory "blah blah your a troll blah blah" brainless reply I petitioned CCP and as a result have also sent an inquiry to HMRC regarding the EU VAT laws application to online gaming when no real money is involved (ie gambling). To bad the HMRC has no say in the VAT being charged to you since the VAT is charged in the operating country, ie: Iceland. thus you get charged the VAT of Iceland not the UK.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.26 05:09:00 - [21] CCP should have individual, different subscription prices for each country of the world, based on a country's economic wealth. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Strikeclone The Steel Ravens	Posted - 2009.02.26 06:08:00 - [22] Originally by: EliteSlave To bad the HMRC has no say in the VAT being charged to you since the VAT is charged in the operating country, ie: Iceland. thus you get charged the VAT of Iceland not the UK. Incorrect. According to EU VAT laws VAT is charged by the company providing the service, but the amount payable is charged at the VAT rate of the consumer and is payable by the provider to the consumers taxman. So HMRC will have a very great deal to do with any VAT related monies due to them. The first point of argument regarding Eve and EU VAT laws is that CCP charges approximately 40% more to EU players compared to the rest of the world. In raw dollars this means that a non EU player paying monthly will pay over a year $179.4 where as an EU player paying monthly over a year will pay $228.16. A difference of $48.7 or about ú34 The second point of argument is whether or not Eve-online or indeed any online pc game is VAT liable according to EU VAT laws,which again is something I have asked HMRC to clarify. This matter is very serious in the minds of many EU players especially given the current finacial situation of many households. As such I have actually researched this topic in some depth,I suggest anyone interested in it or on commenting on it do the same "Peace through the application of superior firepower"
Tyrenical Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.02.26 06:11:00 - [23] It's all worthless if ya can't trade it in for Gold or Silver.
Lothros Andastar Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.26 06:38:00 - [24] Maybe its because CCP wanna make Money, like, I dunno, a Capitalist Company? The Differences in Price are due to Market Forces causing the Exchange Rates to change. That isn't CCP's Fault. If you dont like it, then f--k off and play a Shi-ty Sharded Game like WoW
Herring Caldari Industrial Accidents Incorporated	Posted - 2009.02.26 09:00:00 - [25] Wait till CCP starts charging US citizens more because the dollar is imploding. All hail Obama.
Strikeclone The Steel Ravens	Posted - 2009.02.26 09:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Lothros Andastar Maybe its because CCP wanna make Money, like, I dunno, a Capitalist Company? The Differences in Price are due to Market Forces causing the Exchange Rates to change. That isn't CCP's Fault. If you dont like it, then f--k off and play a Shi-ty Sharded Game like WoW Another pointless reply made by someone ignorant of the basic facts of the topic under debate. Guess your afraid to open your eyes lest someone pokes them out? "Peace through the application of superior firepower"
Anson Halleck Lost Eden	Posted - 2009.02.26 10:07:00 - [27] Originally by: Oni Triad Simple question : Why does CCP intend to charge 14.95 euro? This is wrong. Why? Because 1 US dollar =/= 1 Euro World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Warhammer OnLine (just to name a few) use standard conversion like 14.99 US Dollars or 12.99 Euros What the hell CCP? As an EU citizen, you have to pay VAT (Value Added Tax). VAT in Iceland is one of highest in Europe, 24.5% Which means most of exchange rate difference between USD and EUR is used by VAT. Other online games could have EU HQ in different country, where VAT is lower (some EU countries have VAT around 15%, even though average is about 19%). It always amazes me, how many ppl have no idea about VAT system, even though they pay this tax many times a day in price of all products and services.
Beor0d Congregatio Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.02.26 10:12:00 - [28] Simple: Don't buy your GTC in Europe, buy it on shatteredcrystal.com _______________________ hmmm....
TigerXtrm BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.02.26 11:30:00 - [29] I believe the VAT is something CCP can't get out of, hence the difference in prices. However it's easy enough to get around. As long as time codes are sold in America you can pay for your game in Dollars, period. Just buy your timecodes at an American retailer and use those codes, you'll save a ton. I pay like 27 euro's for that 60 day timecard which usualy would cost me about 35 euro's.
Xanaii	Posted - 2009.02.26 18:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Anson Halleck As an EU citizen, you have to pay VAT (Value Added Tax). VAT in Iceland is one of highest in Europe, 24.5% Which means most of exchange rate difference between USD and EUR is used by VAT. Other online games could have EU HQ in different country, where VAT is lower (some EU countries have VAT around 15%, even though average is about 19%). Yeah but CCP only pay 18% corporate tax on the money they make. One of (if not THE) lowest corporate tax rate in the world.
King Amarrian	Posted - 2009.02.26 18:49:00 - [31] Edited by: King Amarrian on 26/02/2009 18:51:23 Originally by: Xanaii Originally by: Anson Halleck As an EU citizen, you have to pay VAT (Value Added Tax). VAT in Iceland is one of highest in Europe, 24.5% Which means most of exchange rate difference between USD and EUR is used by VAT. Other online games could have EU HQ in different country, where VAT is lower (some EU countries have VAT around 15%, even though average is about 19%). Yeah but CCP only pay 18% corporate tax on the money they make. One of (if not THE) lowest corporate tax rate in the world. VAT is the modern form of slavery, i.e tax on people via goods. Corporation tax is a tax on the company itself. Thats two seperate things. Not everthing has vat on it, so a corporation can sell stuff that is VAT free and still pay corporation tax VAT is just a fancy way of getting the corporation to become the tax collector. P.S Getting VAT registered means you get you VAT tax back in theory on stuff you purchase as part of your business. So ISK farmers in the EU can claim back VAT they pay on subscriptions to CCP. But Ordinary Joe's cannot.
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.02.26 19:06:00 - [32] Well its simple really... Iceland is a land of terrorists. Gordon Brown said so so it must be true [i] Ransom List Project: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=999677&page=1
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.26 19:38:00 - [33] Originally by: Strikeclone Incorrect. According to EU VAT laws VAT is charged by the company providing the service, but the amount payable is charged at the VAT rate of the consumer and is payable by the provider to the consumers taxman. So HMRC will have a very great deal to do with any VAT related monies due to them. The first point of argument regarding Eve and EU VAT laws is that CCP charges approximately 40% more to EU players compared to the rest of the world. In raw dollars this means that a non EU player paying monthly will pay over a year $179.4 where as an EU player paying monthly over a year will pay $228.16. A difference of $48.7 or about ú34 The second point of argument is whether or not Eve-online or indeed any online pc game is VAT liable according to EU VAT laws,which again is something I have asked HMRC to clarify. This guy speaks the truth. In accordance with Council Directive 2002/38/E electronic services sold to EU non-business individuals by non-EU company are subject to VAT charges. Non-EU company have to charge a VAT according to VAT rate of customer country. Non-EU company choses which Member State tax authority will be acting on behalf of the whole EU and pays all the VAT collected to this authority who then distributes money between Member States. So "Europeans pay more because there is a VAT" argument is invalid because VAT rates vary greatly across EU. Moreover CCP fails to comply because they do not specify VAT rate when they charge for monthly subscription. And before you flame me... I work for Tax Authority in VAT Audit Department.
Sargeant HAmmer Caldari Hammers Academy	Posted - 2009.02.26 19:44:00 - [34] its a nice 15% vat now in the uk :) only downside is that we now are paying 33% more than this time last year. although ccp is still getting precisely the same amount its just valued higher. they chose euro and dollar as universal currencies so that they dont need to worry about exchange rates although now they have a professor or whatnot in economies i think they should look at structuring payments in 1 way or every single currency.
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.02.26 19:54:00 - [35] Edited by: Juwi Kotch on 26/02/2009 19:56:46 The lowest VAT rate in EU is 15% in Luxemburg (at present). Any non-EU company selecting a different country then that to pay its VAT to is somewhat stupid and giving away money. Its unlikely that CCP is that stupid. So you can calculate the difference between US and EU price based on a VAT rate of 15%. When I get my eBay bills, it states that the VAT is taxed by Luxemburg with the amount of 15%. CCP should make a statement how much VAT they pay to which country as well. Edit: And yes, GB as well has just 15%. Used to be 17.5%, though, so most non-EU companies are taxed via Luxemburg out of habit. Juwi Kotch Universal Rule for Forumusers: Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent!
Sargeant HAmmer Caldari Hammers Academy	Posted - 2009.02.26 19:55:00 - [36] Originally by: Juwi Kotch The lowest VAT rate in EU is 15% in Luxemburg (at present). Any non-EU company selecting a different country then that to pay its VAT to is somewhat stupid and giving away money. Its unlikely that CCP is that stupid. So you can calculate the difference between US and EU price based on a VAT rate of 15%. When I get my eBay bills, it states that the VAT is taxed by Luxemburg with the amount of 15%. CCP should make a statement how much VAT they pay to which country as well. Juwi Kotch PS 2 countries luxembourg and UK
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.26 19:58:00 - [37] Edited by: Kirja on 26/02/2009 19:59:16 Originally by: Juwi Kotch Edited by: Juwi Kotch on 26/02/2009 19:56:46 The lowest VAT rate in EU is 15% in Luxemburg (at present). Any non-EU company selecting a different country then that to pay its VAT to is somewhat stupid and giving away money. No. CCP charges VAT in accordance with customer's country VAT rate.
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.02.26 20:07:00 - [38] If that is the case, then it should add quite a lot of profit for CCP to just open an office in Luxemburg only to invoice its customers. Reduces their average tax bill for European customers by probably something like 5% absolute, or 25% relative. When they do not change the price, that's a full 5% more profit (250.000 accounts, 100.000 of them in EU, 1.5 mill Euro each month, 5% of that 75.000 per month or nearly a million per year). For a million more profit they could afford a nice office with a few people working on payments and taxes ... Greetings Juwi Universal Rule for Forumusers: Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent!
Brema Gangrel Caldari b.b.k Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2009.02.27 13:15:00 - [39] Originally by: Kirja Edited by: Kirja on 26/02/2009 19:59:16 Originally by: Juwi Kotch Edited by: Juwi Kotch on 26/02/2009 19:56:46 The lowest VAT rate in EU is 15% in Luxemburg (at present). Any non-EU company selecting a different country then that to pay its VAT to is somewhat stupid and giving away money. No. CCP charges VAT in accordance with customer's country VAT rate. And strangely enough the price that you pay INCLUDES that VAT....it isnt added on top of the sub fee (ie you dont pay Ç14.95+VAT)
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.27 17:18:00 - [40] Originally by: Brema Gangrel And strangely enough the price that you pay INCLUDES that VAT....it isnt added on top of the sub fee (ie you dont pay Ç14.95+VAT) A purchase receipe should clearly state the sum of purchase, VAT ammount charged on top of that and a total amount.
Gunnanmon Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2009.02.27 18:34:00 - [41] omg another one of these threads. Have we reached 50 billion yet?
Estel Arador Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.27 19:16:00 - [42] Lots of misinformation in this thread. CCP can charge Icelandic VAT to people in EEA countries. You can read here that "VAT on services is paid at the place where the service has been supplied. This will most often, but not always, be where the service supplier is established." Note that that's a site from the European Commision, which was also linked to by Wrangler here. FREE! jumpclone service - 146 locations!
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2009.02.27 20:01:00 - [43] given what looks likely to happen to the euro in the near future be very very grateful anyone will take them off your hands at any price.
Enthral	Posted - 2009.02.27 20:09:00 - [44] You're complaining that your money is worth more than ours?
Aurevoir Connard	Posted - 2009.02.27 20:19:00 - [45] Originally by: Enthral You're complaining that your money is worth more than ours? Well they are so used to having crap currency in europe that now that they have money that is worth something they feel taken advantage of. I have to personally laugh at this. get over it, or get a us dollar account and pay for it that way.
Stealing Honest	Posted - 2009.02.27 20:29:00 - [46] Edited by: Stealing Honest on 27/02/2009 20:31:45 Originally by: Enthral You're complaining that your money is worth more than ours? Yea hmm. It's funny but i thought that was the whole idea why they made the Euro? Edit: Speilang si bad
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.28 20:21:00 - [47] Edited by: Kirja on 28/02/2009 20:23:18 Originally by: Estel Arador Lots of misinformation in this thread. CCP can charge Icelandic VAT to people in EEA countries. You can read here that "VAT on services is paid at the place where the service has been supplied. This will most often, but not always, be where the service supplier is established." Note that that's a site from the European Commision, which was also linked to by Wrangler here. Please do not provide even more misinformation. Taxation on e-commerce is regulated by "special scheme". Read here. Iceland is a part of EEA but not a part of EU. For the purpose of taxation it is considered as a country outside of EU. And no, CCP has no right to charge Icelandic VAT. Taken from EC page: What rate of tax is applicable as a result of the Directive to supplies of digital services? For a business using the special scheme, the rate of tax to be charged on the value of a transaction is the standard rate of VAT applicable in the Member State where the customer is resident. Currently, these are as follows: (table of vat values).
Soularize Caldari Yggdrasil Council	Posted - 2009.03.01 20:47:00 - [48] 25% swedish VAT ftw =)
Diziet EmblassSma	Posted - 2009.03.13 01:42:00 - [49] What about buying a time code froma US based site like shatterd cyrstal for example?
Lucas Tigh East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.13 01:44:00 - [50] Originally by: Diziet EmblassSma What about buying a time code froma US based site like shatterd cyrstal for example? WHAT HATH YOU WROUGHT?! The thread had died, and peacefully at that. ...But yes, that works. ------------------------------------- CCP, make me a winner.
Etchyboy Minmatar Firman AB 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.13 01:57:00 - [51] Originally by: Akita T CCP should have individual, different subscription prices for each country of the world, based on a country's economic wealth. hahaha so in Indonesia you could pay in rice.... or in Africa you could pay in spears! or how about this.. Antartica you could pay in penguins.. Thanks I needed a good laugh
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp KenZoku	Posted - 2009.03.13 02:00:00 - [52] In response to the OP: The reason is simple: CCP hates you. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Dani SP	Posted - 2009.03.13 02:39:00 - [53] Spain: VAT=16% and corp tax: 30% or 35% (depending on number of workers, +250employes = 35%)
Kaizer Douken Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.03.13 03:12:00 - [54] As easy as using google and searching "EVE Online vat" https://secure.eve-online.com/payment/vat.asp 1st link... ¼¼ Originally by: Imran Tam if your sausage looked anything like that, you should have checked the expiration date.
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.03.13 03:19:00 - [55] Originally by: Aurevoir Connard Originally by: Enthral You're complaining that your money is worth more than ours? Well they are so used to having crap currency in europe that now that they have money that is worth something they feel taken advantage of. I have to personally laugh at this. get over it, or get a us dollar account and pay for it that way. I am so jealous my crap currency is worth more than your ****e one. Oh wait...

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