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SiTrix Evolution
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:40:00 -
[31]
I've joined about a month to ago. I'm a cautious player but do take the occasional (and sometimes ill-informed) risk. Since the start I have tried missions, trading, mining, manufacturing and a badly ended trip on my own into low-sec space (where I got pod killed just like that)
My point is that I've tried as much as I could to see whether I wanted to continue playing or not and, believe it or not, getting pod killed with 95% of my assets on board was the turning point. I discovered that the game was so diverse, I could play exactly as I wanted (uniquely) despite the fact there were players much much better than me. Whether I choose to speed up certain areas of learning or choose to specialise in certain skills is my choice. I don't want that taken away from me and I also don't want the people who have played for years sudden;y finding their time and effort specialising eroded because new players don't want to spend time developing their character. Eve is as simple or as complex as you want to make it. you can play by yourself or you can join with or against other players as wish. What attracted me was the amazing amount of choice for both short term and long term that I could make - I personally wouldn't have it any other way.
New players always want to advance faster in any game but I think this one has enough balance and potential for risk (should we want it) at the start that the game ought to be interesting at whatever level you play. Take away the opportunity to choose how your character develops - I hope not!
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Zackaryel
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.01 15:30:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Zackaryel on 01/03/2009 15:30:29
In some MMO's ( DAoC, Ragnarok ), you have some sort of trial period in which you can't do anything but basic moves : sit, stand up, fight, and talk. Basically that's it until you reach level 5 (or 10) to get your first class change to actually what you wanted your char to be.
Just take defining attributes and get learnings as such a trial period.
Neural remapping is just like respec stones in DAoC for those who played it.
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NaBeRa
DRUCKWELLE Evolution
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.03.01 15:37:00 -
[33]
op is right, remove them.
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Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.03.01 19:55:00 -
[34]
Dude, attributes are a main strategic choice on this game.
Oh, I get it, 3 base points intelligence... nothing more to say. You can ragequit. Please close the door when you have left :)
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Hayale
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Posted - 2009.03.01 22:36:00 -
[35]
This topic has been discussed to death here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1002018
in the New Player Experience forum of the Apocrypha site - count at this moment is 15 pages and one more post might push it to 16 pages...
That forum is loaded with training haters which may or may not accurately represent the player base.
Imagine two players who start the game at the exact same moment. One builds a character with as few learning skills as possible and never trains a single learning skill. The other one builds a character with as many learning skills as possible and trains all eleven learning skills to level five.
CCP gets rid of learning skills in the new expansion released in the next DT.
The second character described above wakes up and downloads a loss of upwards to five million skill points and is that far behind the first player described above. And don't forget the loss of the ISKs used to buy all those learning skill books.
Hmmm. Punished for planning ahead. Player two really spent all that time training the skill "Screwed by CCP For Training Learning Skills When I Could Have Been Training A Skill Which Would Have Allowed Me To Get Better Stuff"
I know someone will tell me the accelerated learning of the "Stuff Getting" skills afforded player two by the advanced learning skills evens out when compared with the longer time player one took to learn the same skill. In any event, making null the time spent learning any skill will advantage some players and disadvantage others - so how does CCP make it fair?
I know life is not fair - if it was, then the horse would get to ride half the time - but CCP is not life, it is a product offered for sale with the sale based on time, so some of my sub is paying for skill development time. Imagine Nvidia "forcing" (somehow) every owner of one of their vid cards to download a driver which would knock off a chunk of on-board RAM the owner bought and paid for. (I said "imagine" so please don't flame me about how Nvidia could "force"... just go with the metaphor...)
Here's an idea I've had for a long time and it could be a new income stream for CCP and make the "death of learning" a little more towards fair. Every business likes a new revenue stream.
Let each account (maybe each 'Toon) have a one-time skill points realignment and charge a fee. (Fixed amount or SPs re-aligned dependent, whatever...)
Set it up using current market software with a spruced up page.
Allow players to "sell" SPs and "buy" SPs using the skill point as the medium of currency. I could sell 256k SP of charisma and buy 256k SP of... hmmm, skirmish warfare as an even trade or perhaps buy 100k SP of cybernetics and 156k SP of any other skill(s) I choose.
Adding this feature would allow CCP to give a skill point loss "consideration" to every player, as every player will suffer a loss of SP after downloading the "Death of Learning" patch.
Deleting the usefulness of any feature which required players to forego obtaining a feature which remains in the game, is a bad idea.
But what about the players who lost a ship which would not have been lost if the time spent training willpower was used to learn gunnery skills? I guess the loss was due to stupidity, but someone will bring up that weak argument.
Thanks and fly safe!
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NaBeRa
DRUCKWELLE Evolution
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.03.02 22:29:00 -
[36]
no SP exchange is necessary, just remove them with the complete attribute thing.
if really wanted, you can give every character half training time till the double ammount of skillpoints lost by removing the learnings is gained.
example:
char with 10mil SP, 2mil in learnings.
remove the attributes and learnings, char has 8mil SP and has double learning time till 12mil SP.
char with 85mil SP and 5,3mil learnings.
remove the attributes and learnings, char has 79,5mil SP and has double learning time till 90,5mil SP.
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Ara Veritas
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Posted - 2009.03.04 00:13:00 -
[37]
Keep attributes and learning skills, I like the extra layer of decision making and complexity in EVE online.
I'd vote for adding another tier of learning skills, and also add 2 more tiers to learning itself ( the skill not the skill group )
I would also give newbies +/- 700k worth of learning skills so they dont have to train them as much in the start.
This would bring the newbies total back to +/- 800k as it is currently.
And perhaps another tier of cybernetics and corresponding implants.
Cyberwiz aka CyberGh0st aka Mentakh
Active @ EvE Online
Favorites : DAoC-SI/SWG Pre CU-NGE/Ryzom
Retired @ WoW/LOTRO/WAR/Planetside/Entropia/UO/Lineage/GW/EQ/Jumpgate/Dofus/AoC |
the member
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2009.03.04 11:40:00 -
[38]
 Originally by: Tommy Caldari
I have recently put in +4 attribute implants and my god am i let down!!
What a complete and utter waste of time at training cybernetic to lvl5 and what a waste of time it was to buy the implants. They ain't speeded up my training time by much.
I think, instead of having it all done in real time. I think you should drop it completely, as in, once you buy the book and put it in to your chars klnowlecge base or whatever you call it, then...thats it fully trained.
All that would've changed is no more different annoying levels.
And he's right, this attribute remapper is ****ing pointless.
I am seriosuly thinking about going back to Everquest 2..
+4 implants require cybernetics at 4 not 5...
Quote:
"You're obviously from France."
-- Intel CEO Paul Ottelini
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Zaldox
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Posted - 2009.03.05 07:41:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tommy Caldari
I have recently put in +4 attribute implants and my god am i let down!!
What a complete and utter waste of time at training cybernetic to lvl5 and what a waste of time it was to buy the implants. They ain't speeded up my training time by much.
I think, instead of having it all done in real time. I think you should drop it completely, as in, once you buy the book and put it in to your chars klnowlecge base or whatever you call it, then...thats it fully trained.
All that would've changed is no more different annoying levels.
And he's right, this attribute remapper is ****ing pointless.
I am seriosuly thinking about going back to Everquest 2..
Hate too brake the news too you..But +4 implants only require lvl 4 cybernetics.
On the other hand you post is either a sarcastic post or your blind if you did not see your training time decreasing allot by plugin them in..
Make a long term plan in evemon then compare whit and without implants,and come back and say you still think its wasted..
Then i will tell you to go back to Everquest 
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Ara Veritas
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Posted - 2009.03.05 16:16:00 -
[40]
Stop trying to fix something that isn't broken mmkay?
Cyberwiz aka CyberGh0st aka Mentakh
Active @ EvE Online
Favorites : DAoC-SI/SWG Pre CU-NGE/Ryzom
Retired @ WoW/LOTRO/WAR/Planetside/Entropia/UO/Lineage/GW/EQ/Jumpgate/Dofus/AoC |
Mad Mona
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Posted - 2009.03.05 21:14:00 -
[41]
If you start with taking out learning skills where will it end.
Maybe when you get blown up you can respawn as its upsetting to actually lose your ship.
Leaning skills dont take that long to train and if you do it early it gives you time to get some isk behind you so you can actually buy the things you have the skills for.
Lets not make the game too carebear.
on a different note..if they do remove learning skills how do I get back the time I spent training these? Maybe 100mill isk for each lvl of each learning skill could compensate me.
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Emorius
Woopatang
Primary.
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Posted - 2009.03.05 21:51:00 -
[42]
If they ever removed learning skills, they should allow us to use that sp spent on them and put anywhere else we would like. So if u spent 5m sp in learnings, on launch day, u go in your character sheet and see you have lost 5m sp. But like attribute retribution, there would be a skill retribution. And in there you can place that sp u had from learnings and put them anywhere else. I think thats the most fair thing to do, IF they did remove them.
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Dzil
Caldari
Late Night Research
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Posted - 2009.03.06 02:26:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Deizel
Edited by: Deizel on 26/02/2009 18:27:12
CCP Flatboy, in case you missed my reply in the other post I made this into a new thread, to get some other views:
I find the whole concept of attributes superfluous and something that adds little if anything to this wonderful game.
Seriously, I have 100M SP, all the learnign skills trained to 5 a long time ago (yes, even the advanced ones), and yet I still wonder why training a rank 5 skill in a particular area should take longer than a same rank skill of another area.
Attribute implants can be raplaced with skill-hardwiring, and thus the 'value' of a pod can be preserved; or you could have generic implants each granting a % faster learning but that's it.
Not only should learning skills be removed but attributes alltogether. Thay add an unnecessary complexity to the game and serve only to confuse new players, not to mention that they are a distraction from 'actual' game play.
Being able to remap attributes is just a workaround to what is commonely perceived as an undesired feature. Yet the simplest solution is the best: get rid of attributes as well as learning skills and make each skill of the same rank take the same training time.
Think about it: now one has to go and optimize his training schedule around the next attribute allocation, and focus skill training in those areas; in one year, however, after a new attribute allocation, they can start training a different set of skills in order to be optimal.
Why don't you let people train what they like without having to worry about missing out on training time becasue the attribute allocation is not optimal?
Attributes add absolutely nothign to the game and is certainly not considered one of the great features of EVE Online by anyone. It only creates a real and perceived inconvenience ot the players.
+1 guy that likes the attribute system, and would prefer that the OP go write his own MMO instead of begging to ruin an existing one.
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maranne marachian
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Posted - 2009.03.06 02:48:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Emorius
If they ever removed learning skills, they should allow us to use that sp spent on them and put anywhere else we would like. So if u spent 5m sp in learnings, on launch day, u go in your character sheet and see you have lost 5m sp. But like attribute retribution, there would be a skill retribution. And in there you can place that sp u had from learnings and put them anywhere else. I think thats the most fair thing to do, IF they did remove them.
rather than just giving you 5mil to put straight into skills they'd be much more likely to just give you 2x learning speed for 2x they amount of points you lost (ie in the time most people would learn 5 million you'd learn 10)
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Lagruna Zegata
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Posted - 2009.03.06 11:36:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Lagruna Zegata on 06/03/2009 11:39:54
Edited by: Lagruna Zegata on 06/03/2009 11:39:12
CCP should not remove learning skills!
It is actually a good decision on their part to keep them there, because deciding whether to train learning is very much like deciding whether to attend college in real life.
Going to college takes sacrifice and dedication, but the long-term payoff is generally worth it.
You don't have to attend college in real life, just as you don't have to train learning skills in EVE.
Want a bachelor's degree? Train basic learnings 4, advanced 3
Master's degree? Basic learnings 5, advanced 4
PhD? All learnings maxed out.
EDIT - BTW, those advanced learning skillbooks are very expensive to rookies, sure! Just like the expensive textbooks bought for university classes....No one said college tuition is cheap 
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.03.06 23:29:00 -
[46]
Id be cool with the removal of learning skills - if I got all the points back to spend where ever i wanted all at once.
If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
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Koloch
Amarr
Warriors Lost
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Posted - 2009.03.07 01:35:00 -
[47]
There are people that like the added depth that attributes and learning skills add to the game.
Not all characters should train every skill group at the same rate. Traders shouldn't train gunnery skills as fast as someone who wants to spec in combat etc. Players that can afford +5s can train slightly faster than players that don't want to bother with implants. I would even go as far as to say they do offer some role playing background for some characters.
I can see that they don't add value to YOUR game play. That's certainly fine, but there is the catch that other players do enjoy them -heck some people play the game only to train.
End of the day your suggestion only takes away from Eve's unique game design.
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Zackaryel
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.07 21:11:00 -
[48]
Well, to be objective, 99.9% of the EVE playing community find that Learnings are a terrible pain in the ass. Of course it is.
If you want to train Basics 5 and Advanced 4, it already takes you 2 months -ish of your play time just to increase your learning speed. Add Cybernetics 5 and add another 15d-ish to the plan. That's 2,5 months of not learning anything more to fit of fly.
However, the payoff is definately worth it, having a +9,9 to each attribute ( actually +9 x1.1 with Learning V ), and another +5,5 with a +5 set, rocketting your attributes to +15.4 from what their bases were.
Now here's my plan :
- Basics 5
- Advanced 4
- Cybernetics 5
- Charisma needing skills ( Social as a mission runner + Leadership/Warfare Link Specialist)
Then what ? Go to neural remapping and rip off those +9.9 points of Charisma I don't think you'll ever need again, and even the remaining four attributes about equally.
With my char I should end up with something like 25-ish in Int/Mem/Perc and Wil.
Well ok i'm way out of subject here but just compare myself when I'm done (I/M/C/P/W)
25-25-??-25-25
to a new created char who wouldn't do any learning ? highest attribute would be roughtly 10 or 11 -ish with the other ones up to 5/6 or even worse. With this I'd probably catch up and even go past this poor guy in less than 6 months, and probably would have 2x his SP's in less thana year.
If I'm not wrong and if you don't miss too much skill changes, you can do 20m-ish SP a year, maybe even 25m depending on your skillplan and attributes.
All this to say, yes it's painful, it's long and you don't see the imediate reward out of it, but it's HUGE !
Training Learnings is all but immediate reward.
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http://www.youtube.com/user/Zackaryel |
Koloch
Amarr
Warriors Lost
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Posted - 2009.03.07 22:09:00 -
[49]
...which is why they are important. Players that decide they want to make that investment in training time are payed back if they stay in game long enough.
With the upcoming respecting of attributes players must carefully decide if they want to focus train one area for 12 months or if they want a more balanced attribute distribution. These choices add depth to the game.
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JannelleSilver
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Posted - 2009.03.08 16:02:00 -
[50]
Originally by: maranne marachian
Originally by: Emorius
If they ever removed learning skills, they should allow us to use that sp spent on them and put anywhere else we would like. So if u spent 5m sp in learnings, on launch day, u go in your character sheet and see you have lost 5m sp. But like attribute retribution, there would be a skill retribution. And in there you can place that sp u had from learnings and put them anywhere else. I think thats the most fair thing to do, IF they did remove them.
rather than just giving you 5mil to put straight into skills they'd be much more likely to just give you 2x learning speed for 2x they amount of points you lost (ie in the time most people would learn 5 million you'd learn 10)
Why?
I've already spent the time to accrue those training points. Why shouldn't I be able to redistribute them immediately if CCP decides to remove skills I chose to train in the past.
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Ara Veritas
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Posted - 2009.03.09 02:13:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Koloch
...which is why they are important. Players that decide they want to make that investment in training time are payed back if they stay in game long enough.
With the upcoming respecting of attributes players must carefully decide if they want to focus train one area for 12 months or if they want a more balanced attribute distribution. These choices add depth to the game.
Quoted for truth !
Cyberwiz aka CyberGh0st aka Mentakh
Active @ EvE Online
Favorites : DAoC-SI/SWG Pre CU-NGE/Ryzom
Retired @ WoW/LOTRO/WAR/Planetside/Entropia/UO/Lineage/GW/EQ/Jumpgate/Dofus/AoC |
maranne marachian
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Posted - 2009.03.09 03:15:00 -
[52]
Originally by: JannelleSilver
Originally by: maranne marachian
rather than just giving you 5mil to put straight into skills they'd be much more likely to just give you 2x learning speed for 2x they amount of points you lost (ie in the time most people would learn 5 million you'd learn 10)
Why?
I've already spent the time to accrue those training points. Why shouldn't I be able to redistribute them immediately if CCP decides to remove skills I chose to train in the past.
mainly because thats much harder to code for its "easy" to program a database search to;
grab those numbers add them to your current points stick that number in the "2x learning till" filed of the database then remove them and their points from your character, (say 5-6 database interactions per character + some code most of which is currently in game already and can probs be done in downtime with ease)
when compared to..
take total learning skill points put them in a new specially coded for "points lost" field then remove those points have you log on to a newly coded interface asking you to please select x number of skills to put these points into have the database add these points to those fields until every last point is spent (so i'll be nice and call it 5 interactions per SKILL + lots of new game code that will likely never be used again done during downtime AND uptime slowing down the DB server)
now if you were one of the devs which would be the most likely route you'd take? the one which could be done in an (all be it extended) downtime or the one where even after your downtime your seeing lots of DB slowdown?
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Emorius
Woopatang
Primary.
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Posted - 2009.03.09 07:31:00 -
[53]
Regarding how "hard" it is to implement is frankly not our concern, its the devs. That would be their issue and they would have to find a solution to it. If you really thank your 2x training for w.e. points in sp u got in learning is best, then might as well just make it 50-100x training speed, since its what you call "simple" coding and have us get those 5m plus sp back in a VERY short time. Problem solved.
Whatever the case, CCP would be completely foolish not to compensate us in a big way for the learnings if they removed them, or they would have ****ed off people through the roof, lets be honest.
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maranne marachian
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Posted - 2009.03.09 11:28:00 -
[54]
Edited by: maranne marachian on 09/03/2009 11:32:09
the "simple"coding is 1(one!) line of SQL code the "hard" is fuel bays from ships removed from the next expansion while the devs code the new interface your asking for.. the reason I said 2x speed is because its an easy sum 2xspeed for 2x the amount lost nice and simple and no chance of rounding errors so no people screaming about losing SP.
so which would get more complaints? a few people having to wait for a few months to regain their SP while being more able to make quick changes to their plans thanks to DOUBLE the learning speed, or the people waiting on whatever it is they have to delay to code your new skill change interface which is never used again?
as for pay off lets see you have 2x learning speed for 10 million points +10 to each att and you think the *****ing would be from the (relatively) small group with all these bonuses?
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Vasco Falcon
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.09 14:26:00 -
[55]
Its such a shame CCCP insist on learning skills remaining ingame. New players want to try as many different craft and things asap, yet in npc corps channels i always see ppl recomending them to go off and learn learning skills which bring no new equipment.
There a complete waste of time, either buff starting stats or just remove them altogether, its really long overdue.
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Vasco Falcon
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.09 14:28:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Hayale
Imagine two players who start the game at the exact same moment. One builds a character with as few learning skills as possible and never trains a single learning skill. The other one builds a character with as many learning skills as possible and trains all eleven learning skills to level five.
CCP gets rid of learning skills in the new expansion released in the next DT.
The second character described above wakes up and downloads a loss of upwards to five million skill points and is that far behind the first player described above. And don't forget the loss of the ISKs used to buy all those learning skill books.
Hmmm. Punished for planning ahead. Player two really spent all that time training the skill "Screwed by CCP For Training Learning Skills When I Could Have Been Training A Skill Which Would Have Allowed Me To Get Better Stuff"
I!
Im well into the second catagory and for the good of the game even if learning skills cant be refunded re skill points just get rid of the crap, they the most uneeded and unessary time sink ever. Having finally hit 20mil sp myself eve online is a completely different game in that i can use many basic fittings and lots of equipment, the sooner everybody gets here the better.
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Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
Minmatar
The Perfect Harvesting Experience
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Posted - 2009.03.09 18:13:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Vasco Falcon
Its such a shame CCCP insist on learning skills remaining ingame. New players want to try as many different craft and things asap, yet in npc corps channels i always see ppl recomending them to go off and learn learning skills which bring no new equipment.
There a complete waste of time, either buff starting stats or just remove them altogether, its really long overdue.
Then you always have heard crappy advice...
I have always given the advice to train learning skill when you can, but let something that gives you access to a module that makes you life easier priority.
Then again, I am a fan of having new recruits/players mine for their first ship in a class. In other words you bring the Trit, Pyer and Mex and the corp will provide you with the Cruiser/BC/BS of your choice.
-----------------------------------------------
Originally by: Paper
Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
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KtoJest
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.09 19:10:00 -
[58]
i say get rid of everything except the jukebox. the pizza delivery service and the guided wormhole tours. lol
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nostromer
Minmatar
Subnet Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.03.09 21:35:00 -
[59]
I couldn't help but notice a lot of posts saying things like
"I would be cool with banishing learning, in exchange for all my SP being droppable into other fields"
I'm not sure about you guys.. But I don't think I would take lightly to another alliance, or rival corp having everybody in their entire fleet have +8MSP into any fields they want overnight.. I would imagine something like that would throw the game into a bit of a chaos for a while.
I would also felt cheated by CCP, in the respect that the 2 1/2 months (around $40 or so with learning 4, subs IV) was time paid for, and now they are saying "sorry about that planning you did... here's your SP back. feel free to get that exhumers V, or battleships V you wanted in one click!"
I don't believe that is the correct approach.
Sure learning sucks, but I think its all just part of the design of EvE. every facet of this game likes to take it fairly deep, and I consider learnings just another layer of added depth.
If anything, they should add an entire subtree to learnings. That add bonuses to other skills.
I.e. - "+1 perception per level and 1% damage to proj/hybr/etc turrets per level if perception is 22+"
or have specialized learning skills for different professions.
I.e."2% faster learning of skills with a primary attribute of perception, and a secondary attribute of willpower per skill level"
There is honestly so many possibilities to expand on learning that In my opinion wouldn't necessarily make the new player experience more "grind and wait" oriented, but rather allow players to use new learning skills early on to boost specialization with new characters and allow for better and more in depth planning. (which is what new players fiend for, an identity quickly)
I just think that the game has been around far to long to find any "reasonable" alternative to learning that would make everyone happy.
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Iridius Saalvan
M'8'S
Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2009.03.09 22:53:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Iridius Saalvan on 09/03/2009 22:54:12
I am not sure i agree with the OP entirely, getting rid of attributes and learning skills would remove a level of complexity from the game of EVE, and one of the main reasons why i love the game so much is the depth of experiences and features.
I for one am looking forward to being able to change my attributes around a bit, its a tad annoying to have charisma as one of your highest natural attributes.
An idea i just had, and im sorry if this has already been mentioned in the thread i didnt read it all, is that maybe instead of making choices at your characters inception that give you your attribute layout, maybe leave that decision until a later date, say at 2 or 3 months, or at a certain SP level, when a player will have more of an idea about what areas they would like to specialise in. Of course, there would have to be certain compensationary measures to ensure that new players still gained SPs at an acceptable level, possibly like the sped up SP learning rate that CCP are introducing for players in the next patch could be experimented with.
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