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Deizel
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Posted - 2009.02.26 18:25:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Deizel on 26/02/2009 18:27:12
CCP Flatboy, in case you missed my reply in the other post I made this into a new thread, to get some other views:
I find the whole concept of attributes superfluous and something that adds little if anything to this wonderful game.
Seriously, I have 100M SP, all the learnign skills trained to 5 a long time ago (yes, even the advanced ones), and yet I still wonder why training a rank 5 skill in a particular area should take longer than a same rank skill of another area.
Attribute implants can be raplaced with skill-hardwiring, and thus the 'value' of a pod can be preserved; or you could have generic implants each granting a % faster learning but that's it.
Not only should learning skills be removed but attributes alltogether. Thay add an unnecessary complexity to the game and serve only to confuse new players, not to mention that they are a distraction from 'actual' game play.
Being able to remap attributes is just a workaround to what is commonely perceived as an undesired feature. Yet the simplest solution is the best: get rid of attributes as well as learning skills and make each skill of the same rank take the same training time.
Think about it: now one has to go and optimize his training schedule around the next attribute allocation, and focus skill training in those areas; in one year, however, after a new attribute allocation, they can start training a different set of skills in order to be optimal.
Why don't you let people train what they like without having to worry about missing out on training time becasue the attribute allocation is not optimal?
Attributes add absolutely nothign to the game and is certainly not considered one of the great features of EVE Online by anyone. It only creates a real and perceived inconvenience ot the players.
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Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.02.26 18:50:00 -
[2]
You lacking in the Intelligence Attribute arn't you?
 Originally by: CCP Whisper
Boo hoo. Cry some more.
Whisper is now officially my hero. |
Agent Unknown
Caldari
Fist of Eargon
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Posted - 2009.02.26 19:09:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Karrade Krise
You lacking in the Intelligence Attribute arn't you?
He had a base intel of 3.
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"What can go wrong, will go wrong." |
Yelan Zhou
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.26 19:42:00 -
[4]
Remove spaceships, they add nothing to the game for ME.
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Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Quam Singulari
Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.26 20:13:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Yelan Zhou
Remove spaceships, they add nothing to the game for ME.
There are spaceships ?
And here was me thinking .... (go figure)
Anyway, to the OP, in some ways you are right, the attribute system might be too complicated (or adding a extra level of complexity) regarding training times.
BUT
I think there are a few Industrialists/PvPers that like their "lop sided" training speeds.
And with regards to implants, they are just fine IMO. You can plug in what you can use, pay for and, eventually, afford to replace. I don't see anything that needs to be changed there.
--
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.26 20:22:00 -
[6]
Hey, I have this idea : get rid of SKILLS altogether, and just have implants to boost things, so that ONLY ISK MATTERS.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Deizel
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Posted - 2009.02.26 20:46:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Deizel on 26/02/2009 20:45:54
Well, I'm happy to bet you 1Bn ISK (each) that attributes won't be here in 5 years time if the game still exists, and you can use this thread as a reference and get back to me.
And here is why:
1) Attributes do not make you better at anything in-game, be it PVP, PVE, trading, manufacturing, research -> nothing!
2) Attributes only affect the speed of your (mostly offline) skill training
3) Why should this training speed be affected by some choice I have made 5 years ago? -> It shouldn't, that's why CCP makes it that you can change it now 
4) Why should people even need to train some skills so that they can train these and other skills faster? They shouldn't , so next thing on the agenda: learning skills will be reomoved (and of this I am certain even if it takes another year)
5) Once learnign skills are out of the way they will certainly consider removing attributes alltogether, as it's just fluff: your high perception is not actually going to help you in a fight is it?
PS: you can quote me on this, but before you post silly replies think about it for a moment ... what does your high charisma do for you? Improve yuor charm on the forums?
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Dark Soldat
Caldari
Heaven's Gate
Scalar Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.26 21:12:00 -
[8]
Give me the 5 odd bil isk right now and im gonna give it back to you if what you say comes true, and i have no alts to recieve the iskies so they go to me !
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Breaker77
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Posted - 2009.02.27 00:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Deizel
Think about it: now one has to go and optimize his training schedule around the next attribute allocation, and focus skill training in those areas; in one year, however, after a new attribute allocation, they can start training a different set of skills in order to be optimal.
Actually no one is forcing you to stick to a skill plan if/when you change your attribute points. You are free to train whatever you want, whenever you want to!!! It has been like that for years.
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.02.27 02:05:00 -
[10]
Attributes add strategy. This is a good thing.
If you dont want to be bothered with this, then respec your char so all your attributes are the same, and then all the skills of the same rank will then all train at the same time for you!
Originally by: CCP Whisper
No it is not an official statement. Not everything surrounded by blue bars is an official statement which can be quoted as fact until the end of time. Deal with it.
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Ryuga VonRhaiden
Caldari
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.27 02:40:00 -
[11]
i have a better idea:
remove all ships except bantams, as they add unnecessary complexity, and we'll fight on even terms... :|
Do not try and find the signature... that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth... There is no signature. |
Isageris
Rocky Mountian Lumber Co.
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Posted - 2009.02.27 05:46:00 -
[12]
shut up.
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Dyre
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.27 18:17:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Why don't you let people train what they like
You can train what you like whenever you like, no one is stopping you.
Quote:
without having to worry about missing out on training time becasue the attribute allocation is not optimal?
It's a game, be less OCD.
Imagine this... You are coming home from work and get stuck in a traffic jam. You have a skill coming out of training in 10 minutes, yet with the increased travel time you are easily 15 minutes from home.
If your palms just got sweaty, you have a problem sir.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.27 18:23:00 -
[14]
I was being sarcastic earlier, but the more I think about it, and with a bit of added cynicism... I have to reluctantly agree with the OP, it IS a distinct possibility this COULD happen in 5 years.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Dasalt Istgut
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Posted - 2009.02.27 18:32:00 -
[15]
OP is right.
Having race related to looks/learning speed/etc makes newbies feel like they have made bad long term decisions - it hurts the game overall, it means that you see tons of Achura's and Khanid's, etc.
Its not mindboggling strategy or anything, it doesn't significantly add value to the game, it just causes a 'should I reroll X' thread every day. And for every one of those thread's there's 5 people who a month after starting the trial when they start to figure out the scope of how long its going to take them to train/etc just say screw it and quit.
Let there be implants to allow you to 'spec' your training, that'll keep the value of pods still high and you can make them small values that take up multiple slots so the learning clone becomes just that/etc for some strategy to it. But at the end of the day that's all changeable and doesn't leave you feeling like your first decision joining the game as an utter newb is going to haunt you for years.
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Dyre
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.27 18:40:00 -
[16]
You see tons of achuras because:
1. The new character guides peg them as having the best stats.
2. The miner's guides tell them to fly caldari for the mining frig/cruiser.
3. The mission runner guides tell them to fly missile boats for versatile damage.
Saying that we have such a ton of them because they DON'T read before they make the character is silly...
The fact that MMO gamers generally DO read before they make their first character in a new game is the reason caldari space looks like vegas on the starmap.
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Helena Zeugir
Gallente
FW Scuad
Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.27 19:03:00 -
[17]
I agree to some extent.
Attributes are important, they differentiate characters, and make each of us unique. Implants should also stay, they further make us unique and special, and add that extra bit of risk vs reward (gettin podded with a set of +5s is not cool).
But, I agree about removing learning skills. They're there just to slow real trainning down. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE ends up trainning them anyway, one way or another, mostly at the beginning of the char "career", before any "real" trainning begins. So, why have them? they're there kind of to be a buffer, a time waste and time sink, not to mention a chore and an annoyance.
Either rework the attribs system to take into account the removal of these skills or make it everyone starts as if they had trained basics to 5 and advanced ones to 4, as everyone and their dog have done so. And then, redistribute those skill points somehow.
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Olivor
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Posted - 2009.02.27 19:15:00 -
[18]
Lets put it this way...
CCP are greatly revamping the new character creation in Apocrypha and Deizel is right about Learning Skills "distracting" players from actual game play.
When I first started I spent AGES and AGES training learning skills, with the odd useful ones put in here and there so I could fly better ships etc. It was my first experience of a game where you had no (real) control over how fast your character "levels up". As the learning skills would (in the long run) make it faster everything but Charisma Learning skills are V for me and was the first thing I trained up.
But to do this I couldn't learn anything of immediate use to me, couldn't get a better ship, couldn't do more damage, couldn't tank better etc etc etc, not only that but those advanced skill books are not cheap for a new player. Yes I'm now starting to reap the benefits of this and all but for other new players who want to stay with the game for a long time saying that to be as productive as possible you've got to spend the first... two months LEARNING TO LEARN is utterly ridiculous.
If you're trying to "sell" EVE to people then getting rid of learning skills would be a great step forward. Thankfully I've never got to touch mine again but would rather see my advantage taken away (well... maybe some way to redistribute the Points I put into Learning...) to make this game more accessible to new players.
Meh, don't mind attributes that much if I'm honest, Apocrypha seems to fix most of it, especially for new players.
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AFTERMARKET
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Posted - 2009.02.28 05:24:00 -
[19]
The skill system was one of the selling points of the game for me.
I like it in a game when the decisions you make actually have long term consequences. The day they get rid of the skill system or morph it into a system where mistakes don't matter, is the day i quit.
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Agent Unknown
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.28 06:13:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Agent Unknown on 28/02/2009 06:13:55
....no. What would be the point of skilling then? gb2WoW
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"What can go wrong, will go wrong." |
Juliette DuBois
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Posted - 2009.02.28 11:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Agent Unknown
....no. What would be the point of skilling then? gb2WoW
To get more skills of course, fool. Attributes arenŠt doing anything but controlling how fast your SP ticks and learnings are just bad game design.
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Robsander
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Posted - 2009.02.28 13:16:00 -
[22]
As a new player myself I can confirm that the learning skills are the anticlimax of eve skilling and I can't express in words how irking it is. Instead of skilling up the giant skill tree to enjoy the game the first month(didn't bother with 5's yet, otherwise it would be 2-3 months) is just building up those learning levels and grinding ISK to buy those advanced learning skill books, which are also very expensive as someone here stated (for new players who get about 100k ISK per mission, and I still wouldn't be able to afford them in a month grinding missions if it wasn't for my corp supporting me and dragging me out to 0.0).
With the new skill mechanic - the one that will allow new players to advance 100% faster until X skill points gained, it's possible to compensate for those people who have spent time on learnings and abolish the learning tree once and for all;
Set every character's attributes to their base+10, and learning skill to 5.
Players who spent their time on learnings would have the +100%(or whatever amount is decided on) learning speed boost until they are at [their current sp]+[whatever the person had in learnings tree prior to that].
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Guttripper
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.28 14:45:00 -
[23]
Perhaps CCP should remove the Frigate skill and give everyone Frigate V since everyone flies a ship.
Perhaps CCP should remove the Electronic skill and give everyone Electronics V since everyone trains for more ship CPU output.
Perhaps CCP should remove the Engineering skill and give everyone Engineering V since everyone trains for more powergrid output.
Even better - CCP should remove all rank one skills and give everyone all those skills maxed out so everyone can jump right into the game!!! And a month later, your character gains all the rank two skills at maximum level. Another month and all the rank three skills are completely maxed for your character. Training is so tedious and making decisions are such hard tasks for a video game. We have to make Eve just like reality - where everyone has everything on even footing and nobody has any advantages over anyone else. Even with the next expansion allowing a yearly attribute redistribution is not enough! Every pilot should have even attributes all year long. And every ISK gained has to be pooled so everyone has an even share of ISK at all times. There will be no fighting since everyone has an even share of the universe they can call their own.
Even better - everyone shall be named "One" so nobody will have an alphabetical advantage nor will anyone believe themselves to be secondary to anybody else since we're all one!
P.S. Let's keep the game as it is...
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Cagot
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.02.28 17:04:00 -
[24]
On reflection, I think I agree with the OP.
You need to make your attribute selection before you have any idea what those attributes really represent and whether or how they will gimp you in your future career. I had no clue when I picked them. I also didn't understand some other things, like the permanence of your name selection, but the attribute thing didn't come clear until long after it was too late to do anything about it.
As far as learning skills: I think even CCP has said it was a big mistake. There's plenty of customization available simply in selecting which ones to train without this additional annoyance.
I'm all for useful complexity - things that are fun to learn to do and that work better if you do them right. However, mechanisms for mechanisms' sake are wasted wheel-spinning.
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Obento Jones
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.28 17:05:00 -
[25]
Originally by: CCP Flatboy
It's no secret that everybody dislikes the Learning Skills. How would your opinions change if there were somehow removed from the game? (This won't happen for Apocrypha btw, just speculating)
As a newer player, I can definitely concur that learning skills SUCK. It's horrible knowing that I have to sit and train stupid learning skills for months that I could be using to train skills that will actually help me enjoy the game. It's basically training to train. In the Evemon Age when we can plan years of skill training into the future it's very depressing to see just how pointless and yet at the same time necessary they are.
All that said, I think Deizel was on the right track when he said the problem starts with attributes. Getting rid of learning skills completely is not the answer. It would be a huge slap in the face to everyone who has spent the time training them and expect to be rewarded for that. Also removing the learning skills would sort of invalidate the whole purpose of attributes, which is specialization of your character.
In my opinion, training times should be normalized and attributes should be reworked to give your character one or more bonuses depending on the attribute. For example you could make each point of perception increase scan strength or lock speed (or both) by X%. Each point of intelligence could descrease research and manufacturing times by Y%. Willpower could affect weapon damage and/or shield/armor/hull hp. Charisma could affect broker's fees. Maybe one stat, like memory, could increase your base skill training time (for all types of skills).
With this change the learning skills would give measurable improvements to one's character, and those who have trained them to the highest levels will not suddenly have their months of effort invalidated as they will be demonstratably more "powerful" than those who haven't. With normalized training speed, anyone who was ahead in skill points will keep their lead, and those new to the game will not have to spend months training to train.
Best of all it will add real specialization options to characters. Attributes would actually mean something. Instead of calling yourself an industrialist just because those are the skills you train the fastest, you'd actually have to have the stats and the skills to truely be a specialist in any one area. Overall I think it would lead to much more varied and interesting attribute spreads as some people (newer characters probably) would focus on training speeds while older more established characters would focus on maximizing their attributes for one or more particular roles. Most importantly it would make attributes interesting and learning skills useful, a win win situation for everyone.
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Ralitge boyter
Minmatar
BrightSpark Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.28 17:09:00 -
[26]
So Deizel are you planning on posting this every two weeks till you get your way or are you just intelligent enough to see that removing attributes form the game is like saying remove tracking speed and traversal velocity form the game they add complexity as well and confuse a lot of players I mean why have them if missile users can do with out them why would turret users have to suffer?
That you managed to mess up your attributes at character creation is said but not really an issue for the rest of us. The attributes add a lot of depth to the game because instead of WoW, Guild wars and well pretty much all other MMO's in EVE you get better by learning something not by doing the same thing over and over and over again. To add to that there are the attributes that make some players better at learning one thin and worse at learning something else, which is a really nice feature as you will in the end have to choose between learning really fast in one category and a lot slower in another or being just about average in all. It's cool stat you have about 100M skill points but clearly you don't completely understand the nice thing about EVE and that is we are not all created equal when it comes to our ability to learn certain things.
That the remap of attributes is a bad idea I agree with it has no place in EVE the more I think about it the harder it seems to fit in the back story and in the game as a whole, the cool thing about eve is that we all have slightly different stats and we all want to learn slightly different things, attributes are what makes us unique in the game and the remap option is about to destroy that, which is very sad.
But removing attributes... lets then just remove mining as well it is totally pointless and it confuses new players as some of them end up thinking that it could some how be fun.
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Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me. |
Tommy Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.28 21:16:00 -
[27]
I have recently put in +4 attribute implants and my god am i let down!!
What a complete and utter waste of time at training cybernetic to lvl5 and what a waste of time it was to buy the implants. They ain't speeded up my training time by much.
I think, instead of having it all done in real time. I think you should drop it completely, as in, once you buy the book and put it in to your chars klnowlecge base or whatever you call it, then...thats it fully trained.
All that would've changed is no more different annoying levels.
And he's right, this attribute remapper is ****ing pointless.
I am seriosuly thinking about going back to Everquest 2..
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Inspiration
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Posted - 2009.02.28 22:10:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Inspiration on 28/02/2009 22:12:47
Originally by: Deizel
Edited by: Deizel on 26/02/2009 21:50:18
1) Attributes do not make you better at anything in-game, be it PVP, PVE, trading, manufacturing, research -> nothing!
Wrong, the affect learning and this is part of what makes the game! In fact learning is a key feature in EVE and its what sets it apart from a shooter game where it takes little time to have seen it all. In EVE you are not too quickly exposed to all game content or reach peak level in whatever you choose and over time you can re-specialise as you know more.
Originally by: Deizel
Edited by: Deizel on 26/02/2009 21:50:18
2) Attributes only affect the speed of your (mostly offline) skill training
3) Why should this training speed be affected by some choice I have made 5 years ago? -> It shouldn't, that's why CCP makes it that you can change it now
Your mistake is yours to make and live with....and that is perfectly fine, again this ain't quake where everyone starts equal and is basiclly the same. Surgery every 6 months is a good balance between living with choices and an ability to refocus or change a bit faster.
Originally by: Deizel
Edited by: Deizel on 26/02/2009 21:50:18
4) Why should people even need to train some skills so that they can train these and other skills faster? They shouldn't , so next thing on the agenda: learning skills will be reomoved (and of this I am certain even if it takes another year)
Strategy options, you can either optimize for the long run and do leaning skills first or you can optimize to get into combat faster, earn more isk early in the game and buy your way up untill you really need to lean to progress. Strategy is good, it adds some depth!
Originally by: Deizel
Edited by: Deizel on 26/02/2009 21:50:18
5) Once learnign skills are out of the way they will certainly consider removing attributes alltogether, as it's just fluff: your high perception is not actually going to help you in a fight is it? In fact they don't mean a thing and you could just call them attributes 1-5, or give them colours.
PS: you can quote me on this, but before you post silly replies think about it for a moment ... what does your high charisma do for you? Improve yuor charm on the forums?
Edit: removed bet as it does not seem to inspire contructive posts
You are so full of it!
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Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
Minmatar
The Perfect Harvesting Experience
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Posted - 2009.03.01 01:29:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tommy Caldari
I have recently put in +4 attribute implants and my god am i let down!!
What a complete and utter waste of time at training cybernetic to lvl5 and what a waste of time it was to buy the implants. They ain't speeded up my training time by much.
I think, instead of having it all done in real time. I think you should drop it completely, as in, once you buy the book and put it in to your chars klnowlecge base or whatever you call it, then...thats it fully trained.
All that would've changed is no more different annoying levels.
And he's right, this attribute remapper is ****ing pointless.
I am seriosuly thinking about going back to Everquest 2..
Don't even bother sending me your stuff... enjoy EQ2.
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Originally by: Paper
Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
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Iferi
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Posted - 2009.03.01 07:35:00 -
[30]
On a related but tangential note I would like to add that I think one of the most serious issues affecting this game and its growth is the extreme amount of time that new players are expected to expend in laying down foundation skills such as learning as mentioned below.
For myself, when I first started playing EVE I was having loads of fun. I struggled to climb the massive learning curve but eventually started grasping the basics. It was when I first downloaded EVEmon and saw just how long it was going to take before I had all of the "core" skills trained to a decent level that I got discouraged.
That's a problem with EVE's skill system its very much a double edged sword. It does put the emphasis back on the player and their specialization choices, but its very hard on new players even ones that you get full buy in from, to get told that they get to sit and watch their skill bars fill up for six months before most player corporations worth anything will even begin to consider them competent.
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