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Aerick Dawn
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Posted - 2003.06.19 15:26:00 -
[1]
CCP, BP copies MUST be severely limited, nerfed or whatever. The market is about to fold over itself, and its only been a month. BP's are being xeroxed faster than you can say "Flooded Market". Considering almost all "basic" bps are sold everywhere in the first place, you have a recipe for disaster in the not so distant future.
The market will collapse because everyone has BP's for EVERYTHING, and those rare bp's being dropped by pirates are already copied to hell and back. Something needs to be done NOW to stem the absolute flood of bp's. I find this ridiculous myself, and I am beginning to wonder why CCP hasn't taken any action about this.
In beta we hardly had any bp's, because they were very rare and only dropped off pirates. The market was pretty good because of this, due to the rarity of said bp's. Now, it is begin to suck harder than a blackhole.
I suggest either nerfing the BP if it's a copy "10% loss of stats", or LIMIT the BP original to spit out only ONE copy and that's it.
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What Aerick has been up to lately.. |
Aerick Dawn
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Posted - 2003.06.19 15:48:00 -
[2]
60 views and not 1 reply? I can't be the only 1 with these thoughts(btw I have a bazillion copies of bp's)
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What Aerick has been up to lately.. |
ayretekz
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Posted - 2003.06.19 15:48:00 -
[3]
so obviously your corp has all the BPs that it needs, therefore the great concern, maybe ??
it's not the BPs it's the player corps that are ruining the market, only thing that this action would do is feed the big corps and starve out anyone's chance at a startup corp, or individuals that just want to build for themselves ammo & such.
sorry but that's my opinion, don't think this would cure anything, just cause a new disease.
Edited by: ayretekz on 19/06/2003 16:01:42
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.19 15:53:00 -
[4]
So you want to make money off the public but the public being able to make their own stuff limits the cash you get from them. Can't say I'm very sympathetic.
Most corporations only take from the public. They reinvest very little of the isk they get back into the economy, choosing to do everything themselves. Further, they focus on the big ticket (the sexier) items, leaving the public in situations like we have now in Heimatar: 12 jumps just to pick up ammo.
There are enough limitations on what people can manufacture based on the amount of effort they want to put into gathering the resources. IF I could find a factory slot near where I'm currently setup, I'd prolly manufacture my own ammo. The furthest I'd go is to manufacture Rifters for myself. But that's it. Cruiser+ items, I'd go to someone else.
Learn to diversify or deal with people getting tired of waiting on others to grace them with the items they need.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Aerick Dawn
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Posted - 2003.06.19 16:01:00 -
[5]
Umm, I would be HAPPY and ECSTATIC if all my BP copies were taken away in order to improve the GAME. Find another route to disprove my theory. There has to be limits. If I was given a copy of a BP, will my manufacturing boys know how to produce it perfectly? I find it rather silly if you ask me. Low cost BP copies will flood the market, and the market will be screwed.
I don't understand how anyone cannot see this as a major issue that will rear it's ugly head, Soon(tm).
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What Aerick has been up to lately.. |
Setec
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Posted - 2003.06.19 16:01:00 -
[6]
I agree that the easy availability of blueprints is currently hurting the market. I also agree that it's good for basic items to be readily available for startups. I think that the solution is to quickly start introducing tech level 2 equipment in very rare pirate drop blueprints that can only be copied a few times. This will give some savvy and/or lucky people the option to make a great amount of money in a healthy market for these "premium" items, while startups will still be able to survive with decent profit in the tech level 1 market.
Another thing I'd like to see is some more convenient way to move minerals around so that ships are actually sold mostly for pure cash. It's not natural for so many deals to occur for currency+minerals instead of just currency. You don't pull into a McDonalds and order a Big Mac Meal and hear, "That will be $4 or $2 and a cow, please drive through." It's not urgent but it's a flaw in the market that should be looked at.
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Space Invaders website: http://www.si-corp.net |
Aerick Dawn
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Posted - 2003.06.19 16:03:00 -
[7]
As always Setec's ideas are very good, and would go a long way towards market stabilization for both the large corps and the startups. Hope a dev reads this.
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What Aerick has been up to lately.. |
ayretekz
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Posted - 2003.06.19 16:12:00 -
[8]
You don't pull into a McDonalds and order a Big Mac Meal and hear, "That will be $4 or $2 and a cow, please drive through."
ROFL - now that's funny, wonder what moo would say about that, trading 'moo' cows for a Big Mac!
if only looking at this from a big corp's viewpoint, and not from an objective point of view, i can see your arguement. but do u really want just big corps in the game and no-one else that plays ?? or new people playing ??
why bother with 'eve' at all, just make it 'monopoly-online' instead!
the market is messed up because everyone won't wait for the sales and afraid someone else will sell one before they do! so instead of dropping their price a little they drop it 500k or more! now that's just stupidity !
do this to BPs and there won't be an economy at all, just another 'eve' monopoly.
i think eve needs to wait on tech level 2 stuff, till things even out, then we'll all race to get the new BPs. it's all just a big rat race, just rats in a cage, that's all we are!
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Gustavef
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Posted - 2003.06.19 16:12:00 -
[9]
The market is flooded. That means there is more supply then demand. BP copies are adding to the excessive supply but are not the only thing.
Pirate drops, even in higher sec areas, flood the market with "common" items.
Pirate drops are better then what can be manufactured. The only market for manufactures of Equipment is the newer players and those with out the resources to get the better loot.
Adding limits on coping BPs would only lower the supply on a few items.
There is a global over-supply issue. I would rather see something like Random NPC buys, just to increase demand by 1 or 2 times. For example, when a player buys an item, there is a chance that 0 to 3 "npcs" will buy the same item at that time as well.
-gustavef
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Lhyda Souljacker
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Posted - 2003.06.19 16:13:00 -
[10]
Two points:
I'm guilty of blue-print flooding (Wasp Heavy Drone copies if anyone wants any). Why am I selling copies of a "unique item" and flooding the market? It comes down to profit. I had to make the choice . . . Do I mine to get the minerals to build (or buy the minerals) and sell the individual drones piece-meal . . . or do I put the print in to copy 50 times and sell a copy every hour all day, with no investment or no time spent mining.
Yes, maybe copying should be limited, but we all know that those prints will be obsolete in short order. I'm milking my cash cow while I have it.
2nd point:
Minerals are suficiently valuable enough to replace money and often times easier to collect than cash. Cash is King, but Megacyte is God. I don't think you could buy a Big Mac for a cow, but I bet you could buy a yatch for a small bag of diamonds.
WTS: Wasp BP Copies! WTB: Megacyte for Cash!
... That's when I reach for my revolver ... |
Cachorro Louco
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Posted - 2003.06.19 16:24:00 -
[11]
Aerick Dawn could you please explain in more detail why it will fail?
I don't make things for my corp but the guy who does isn't complaining so he must be making a profit.
Mad Dog says:
Bet I'm the only true Reverend in the game. It says so on the printout I got from an Internet site. |
Gustavef
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Posted - 2003.06.19 16:26:00 -
[12]
Jash brings up an interesting point.
I would love to make ammo and sell it. But too many people/corps just roll their own. And Even for the "freelancers" I have no idea where they may need/want the ammo.
I don't see many buy orders for ammo. When I do, they are asking for near mineral value. There is no way to haggle with someone. Eveything must be done on speculation or by fulfilling low profit orders.
I would love to see some method of "Player needs daily supply of Ammo in system X." And allow the manufacturers the ability to set up long term contracts with other players.
-gustavef
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Isis Blackrose
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Posted - 2003.06.19 16:34:00 -
[13]
Personally, I wish the dev had not put any of the ship BPs or the higher-end module/ammo BPs for sale on the market at all, and instead made it so that if you did enough agent missions for the right corp, you would be offered the chance to buy the BP from your agent -- maybe just a copy of a BP. For instance, I'm doing some agent missions right now for Transstellar Shipping; if after I got a 1.0 rating with TSS, the agent offered me say, an Imicus BP copy (for say, 50% of the NPC original BP price), I might very well take it. That would have been a much better way to give out BPs. Why?
Well, first, it would have given the agent missions a bit more purpose than they have now, and get more people to do them. Second, it would have restricted them a bit more, so that we wouldn't see them flooding the market like this; the distribution would be more logical too -- pirates who have a horrible faction rating with the Amarr Empire would not be able to buy the Maller BP, which is supposedly a ship restricted to the Amarr military and their close associates (same with the ubitquitous Moa which is now everyone's favorite BP). It would have taken longer for the hgh-end ships to get in the game and I think things would have been much more interesting these first couple of months.
Unfortunately, that didn't happen. Now, I'm not sure what to do about the problem. The oversupply of BPs is killing the market; personally, I refuse to buy copies for anything since I want to be able to research, but most people do not care. Now that everyone can build anything they need though (almost anyway), manufacturers are really going to start hurting, and new people starting out are going to have a very rough time of it. Something really needs to be done -- restricting the number of copies is a start, but much of the damage is already done, I'm afraid.
Isis Blackrose
CEO, Olympian Cooperative
http://case.cso.uiuc.edu/eve |
Flower
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Posted - 2003.06.19 16:42:00 -
[14]
Hehe, I'm reminded of Douglas Adams' 'Shoe Event Horizon'. A society over produced shoes to the extent that the economy collapsed destroying civilisation and leaving the survivors to evolve into birds because they cursed the ground and swore they would never walk again.
There is a great need by many corps to become self sufficient. i.e. I personally prefer to build my own stuff (for less) than go 10 jumps to buy it from an NPC/Player Merchant. I belive that we are not the only corp to think that.
Given that there are a finite number of corp/single players, there is a finite number of times you can sell a specific BP. So at some point in the future you will reach saturation point.
CCP Marketing ploy: Tech Level 2 comes out. The Original BP hunt starts again.
I feel what will ultimately drive the economy is the availablility of BP's. I would not be supprised to find out that future BP's (Tech 2 and beyond) have copy restrictions and even restrictions on the number of uses.
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Heff
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Posted - 2003.06.19 16:45:00 -
[15]
I have never seen so much one-dimensional thinking in my life. Sure, there are hundreds or thousands of BP copies on the market, but they are all for basic equipment.
When research allows higher tech levels to become available, many of these basic BP copies will be junk. So what if you have a million blueprints of an ancient stone axe? ThatÆs old technology baybee!
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Arondos
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Posted - 2003.06.19 16:55:00 -
[16]
The stuff out there right now is the entry level, basic gear. I think they want lots of people to be able to make it. So what if everybody can make a volkswagen bug when there will be corvettes and porsches around soon enough?
The other thing is exactly what people are saying. When people undercut prices they aren't bothering to go a little. Instead it's oh someone is selling a stabber for 6 mil? I'll drop to 5.5 mil. It's not the real world. Talk to the other guy selling (if you can figure out who it is) and do a little old fashioned price fixing :)
Life isn't fair and neither is Eve. Get over it. |
Lhyda Souljacker
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Posted - 2003.06.19 17:17:00 -
[17]
Also a good point, Heff . . . I fully expect that when Ogre or Beserker BPs start showing up, my drone print will be worthless . . . why not make a buck (or 90 million) while I can :)
LSJ
... That's when I reach for my revolver ... |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.19 17:20:00 -
[18]
The market isn't saturated. Not the way I see it. The basic design in game mechanics has a fundamental flaw:
Once I buy it, I don't need to buy it again.
It's very simple from there on. I'm flying Rifters at the moment. I have 2 of them, one as a spare in case I do something stupid. But it's very rare for me to do something stupid. There's a better chance of me losing my ship to a CTD than to anything else. So whoever manufactured my rifters has gotten 2 sales from me. And that's ALL they're getting for a long time probably.
And I'm talking about a combat vessel. The situation is much worse when you consider the number of miners and the risk to their equipment. I'm willing to bet people like MOo and M3G4 have caused more industrial ship losses and mining gear than anything else in the game. Once you buy your Badger or Bestower, you're done. Short of stupidity or MOo encounters, you'll not need to buy another one. Got your mining lasers? You're finished interacting with the market for a long time.
The market isn't saturated because of the number of blueprints out there and the people manufacturing their own stuff. The market is saturated because of the lack of need to buy new items.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Gustavef
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Posted - 2003.06.19 18:00:00 -
[19]
Level 2 items both excite me and scare me.
They will be cool to be able to make better items, but then the pirates will drop better.
Also, alot (if not all) of the level 1 BPs would now be worthless.
I think the idea of agents rewarding with BPs is a good one. Currently the only way to get good BP original is attacking NPC convoys (which I don't know if that affects your sec rating) or getting lucky with some Pirate drops. There needs to be a way for non-combative types to get the better BPs then hoping that someone would be nice enough to part with a BP for a reasonable price.
-gustavef
Edited by: Gustavef on 19/06/2003 18:02:09
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.06.19 18:29:00 -
[20]
You may have the recipe for a Big Mac - but only we can do a Fedo Chillie-Dog.
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Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.06.19 22:00:00 -
[21]
Old BP Copies worthless when Tech lvl 2?
No, not really. There are Ferarris available, but Toyotas still sell good.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.06.19 22:04:00 -
[22]
BPs should be limited to 1-3 copies. Simple as that.
It makes people reconsider before they copy a BP because research becomes important. When you can only copy a BP 3 times then youŠd rather do some serious research on it before you copy. Heavily researched BP copies would sell much better for a higher price while the market canŠt get "flooded" with them because people canŠt do unlimited copying.
IŠm pretty irritated why CCP didnŠt implement this in the first place. In beta I remember they said that youŠd only be able to copy BPs 3 times in retail.
Mai's Idealog |
Gustavef
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Posted - 2003.06.19 22:21:00 -
[23]
But why by a Toyota when the Ferarri is the same price :)
Maybe not that bad. I am just cautious about level 2+ items. There is already little enough demand for the current level 1 items. How many Miner 1s are needed? After you buy two, that is it. Maybe a few more, but more then likely you save up your ISK and get a XeCL or CU Vapor. Then you have your old two put on the market. Thus making the supply problem worse.
-gustavef
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.19 22:30:00 -
[24]
"But why by a Toyota when the Ferarri is the same price :)
Maybe not that bad. I am just cautious about level 2+ items. There is already little enough demand for the current level 1 items. How many Miner 1s are needed? After you buy two, that is it. Maybe a few more, but more then likely you save up your ISK and get a XeCL or CU Vapor. Then you have your old two put on the market. Thus making the supply problem worse.
-gustavef
"
Eventually people are going to come to the realization that item degradation is almost required for a healthy economy. Whether or not they like buying new items to replace old ones. When I play cautiously, I don't lose anything but ammo.
Something I think is hilarious is the most steadily profitable manufactured items in the game is ignored by most people since its not 'sexy': Ammunition. I alone spend about 50k per day on just emp small ammo. Yet there's an unbelieveable ammo supply issue in Heimatar.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Maggot
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Posted - 2003.06.19 22:30:00 -
[25]
Please reduce the availability of bps. Open up factories. Get some in game board going to allow corps or freelancers to advertise services.
The market is stagnant, not just in products but in services, and it is mainly due to poor channels of communication.
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M0RPHEUS
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Posted - 2003.06.20 00:19:00 -
[26]
thats why pirates are here for. increasing the demand of good products. have a good day ;)
Ask me nicely and I won't pod you... |
Nibarlan
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Posted - 2003.06.20 00:27:00 -
[27]
@!%#$!&@*@!#$#%!@@!!!!!!!! I PAID GOOD MONEY FOR MY BLUE PRINTS! IF YOU WANT THEM GONE I EXPECT A FULL REIMBURSEMENT. Also the shortage of factories is helping counteract most of this.
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In space no one can hear you scream...unless you scream on the radio, then everybody on that channel can hear you...but only if your in a ship, because they wouldn't hear you if you were in space and screamed into the radio
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Senwen
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Posted - 2003.06.20 00:42:00 -
[28]
I'd like to see an original BP become more valuable. It would be nice if a BP original can be researched to become a tech 2 (and higher) blueprint. Tech 1 Copies would rapidly become less valuable once a blueprint for that item has been researched to tech 2. And eventually tech 2 bps would follow when tech 3 bps were available. A tech 3 jump should take many more researches than a tech 2 jump.
What I envision would be the ability to have a random stat of the item increased thru research and becoming a tech 2 item. Thus while all tech 1 bps are the same, all tech 2 Bp's are not necessarily the same. some would become more valuable than others because of which random stat got increased. through continued research, you could get another tech increase that might make that poorer bp valuable again. This would create diversity of products which we don't really have now. You would create levels of value. Due to db considerations, obviously you would need to restrict just how many variations can be researched, but I think this would add to the game.
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Damon Vile
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Posted - 2003.06.20 01:10:00 -
[29]
The only thing the market will ever be flooded in is ships. All equipment ( combat equipment that is ) made from a BP right now is crap. Every good item in the game is looted from a pirate drop.
I really don't see a problem with ships becoming cheap. Right now most sell for far mreo then 100% markup.
The bigger problem IMO is
1) you can't put loot items on the market ( unless they are just standard junk ) so the wonderfull market the devs have made is going to waste most equipment items are being sold the good old fasion way...spam it on trade channel.
2) Not many ppl seem to be fighting. There is a huge arms race going on right now with very little combat. When this finaly blows, lots of ppl will need ships.
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QBall
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Posted - 2003.06.20 01:33:00 -
[30]
The games fine with the current BP system
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"OMG IT'S TRAMMEL 2.0!!!!"
-QBall
And
QQ is QQ |
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