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David Grogan
Gallente
The Motley Crew
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:02:00 -
[1]
its far too hit n miss to actually make profit cos t1 ship bpo to use to make copies cost loads & decryptors cost too much and are used up each time u try and using base objects such as ships for me havent not helped in anyway.
it simply works out cheaper to just go buy a damned bpc from contracts and build your ship
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
Kusum Fawn
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:11:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Kusum Fawn on 02/03/2009 16:11:34
whine whine wine cheese, i like Gouda
Now, raise your skills, pay attention to your decrypter chances,
stop crying. it works for some how exactly? and you are using t1 bp O's or t1 bp C's, you may just be re-tar-ded. look into this
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eVaLF
Delivery Luck
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:22:00 -
[3]
Right now very few ship's make profit but here is a little help.
Ships always use 1 Run
Modules always use max Run
Work out cost based on what your % of success should be, should be 45% or greater for mods and 30% or greater for ships.
So if it costs you 1.2mil per invention job on a module and your rate is basicly 50% that means just to make the bpc will = 2.4mil isk which adds on the price of build cost 240k per item.
So add your 240k to the build cost of your item, if that number is less than current market price you make isk, if not don't invent it.
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POS FUEL DELIVERY & HIGH & LOW SEC FREIGHTER SERVICES |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:31:00 -
[4]
Yes, it IS too much of a hit and miss to guarantee profit on a small scale.
And that's why you go LARGE scale... with a large enough number of invention runs, it all averages out, and you have no more problems.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
brinelan
Caldari
Victory Not Vengeance
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.03.02 16:42:00 -
[5]
stop using decryptors if they cause you to lose money. most ships and modules dont need them to turn a profit.
Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield. |
Bromboor
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:28:00 -
[6]
Eh, its an expensive hobby, but ok. Just don't try to compete with things that still have BPOs. It's a great way to keep yourself in T2 drones!
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.03.02 17:37:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Akita T on 02/03/2009 17:40:05
 Originally by: Bromboor
Just don't try to compete with things that still have BPOs.
Actually, if the item is in very high demand but not enough inventors are "on it" at the time being, you might make more profit compared to inventing something that has no BPOs at all, where most inventors THINK they can make a profit for sure (but some actually aren't, or the profit is minimal due to oversaturation and the "stuff I get myself costs 0 ISK to use").
I have seen better invention profit margins on quite a few T2 ships that *do* have BPOs compared to, say, HICs (that have no T2 BPOs).
And for damage mods, for instance (and many other modules or even some ammo), that's almost exclusively an inventor's market, there aren't enough BPOs to fill the demand, not by a long shot.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.03.02 20:57:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Bromboor
Eh, its an expensive hobby, but ok. Just don't try to compete with things that still have BPOs. It's a great way to keep yourself in T2 drones!
T2 drones are quite possibly the worst thing you could invent.
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Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
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Posted - 2009.03.02 21:17:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Avalon Champion on 02/03/2009 21:20:50
Originally by: David Grogan
its far too hit n miss to actually make profit cos t1 ship bpo to use to make copies cost loads & decryptors cost too much and are used up each time u try and using base objects such as ships for me havent not helped in anyway.
it simply works out cheaper to just go buy a damned bpc from contracts and build your ship
1) If its cheaper to buy a BPC on contracts and build it, then surely this tells you that its profitable to make the BPC 
2) Do your research on the market
3) Using ships is a waste of time they have a meta 0 thus no impact on chance.
4) Dont use expensive decrypters until you know the basics.
I would bore you with an example, but its not difficult to plug the numbers together in a spreadsheet to work out where the profit is.
EDIT: What Akita says is very true, a HIC's Profit is about 3-4% (if you're lucky)
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Kiyirari
All Star Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.03.02 21:42:00 -
[10]
You are doing some thing very wrong 
 Train your skills up.
Don't use decryptors.
T2 ships have very little profit, your most profitable T2 ships will be around 25% profit, the rest are simple not worth inventing... full stop
When i do invention i create 100 BPC's, i know with my skills i get 40% success, thats easy to work out the returns on 100 bpc's ye 
I use single run for ship bpc's.
Max run module bpc's.
I'm not going to tell you what to invent & whats profitable, thats for you to do the maths 
Revenge is my god and my guns are her angels |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.03.03 06:30:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Lord Fitz on 03/03/2009 06:31:37
Whether something is profitable to invent depends on only two things
a) does anyone really use that item
b) how many people think/'know' how profitable it is to invent
For any item that is a step above useless, the existence or not of a T2 BPO means nothing, only how many people will keep inventing it until the profit evaporates. As with everything you have to do the calculations yourself because the very profitability of an item is dependent on other people (inventors) not knowing it is ;) - As Akita has said, given that some people assume that items without T2 BPOs must ALWAYS be profitable, they don't run the calculations, usually leading to those items being less profitable than T2 invention for items with BPOs, and occasionally completely unprofitable but people don't stop inventing.
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Khrillian
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.03 08:02:00 -
[12]
The Law of large numbers is your friend.
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vvizard NOR
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Posted - 2009.03.03 11:34:00 -
[13]
Regarding BPC's. I often buy them off the market. Let's say I know my chance of inventing a cruiser BPC. Let's say it's 33.23% (or something). That means I can do (100/33.23%) = 3, to find out that statistically I will need three inventions for each successful T2 BPC. Let's say the datacores for one invention cost 4.8M, I just multiply those. 4.8 * 3 = 14,4M
Now I check contracts. Can I find this BPC with ME/PE = -4 for less than 14.4M on contract? If I do, I just buy it. It's time/money saved. Theese beeing sold below actual invention cost (even with all skills at level5) is quite often actually.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Revelation Space
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Posted - 2009.03.03 15:14:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Rashmika Clavain on 03/03/2009 15:25:07
I appreciate the poor ME and PE on an invented BPC is disappointing, but to say there is little or no profit in invention is somewhat ignorant. Let's take an Ishkur, I can make an easy 4m profit per ship without using a decryptor and including POS running costs, datacores and the BPC.
The Ishtars are selling for over 120m in Essense (or was it Everyshore?) at the moment, that value gives me a profit margin of tens of millions.
Yes it may be cheaper bo buy someone elses BPC on a contract, but there;s nothing you can do about stupid/ignorant/desperate people selling things for less than what they're worth.
That said, I have 11 research agents pumping out datacores (which I do recognise as a cost), I provide my own BPC's (again which I recognise as a cost). The profit is there, you just need to find it.
Originally by: eVaLF
Ships always use 1 Run
My understanding is that in order to get a 1+ run ship BPC, you needa max run T1 ship BPC... or have they changed the formula?
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
T2 drones are quite possibly the worst thing you could invent.
I can produce an invented T2 Hammerhead for 103,071.76 isk, excluding the four datacores, and max run BPC. I can then sell it very easily for 1.5m to 2m. Garde II's sell equally well
Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator |
Val Karan
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Posted - 2009.03.03 15:53:00 -
[15]
It becomes better as more T2 BPOs vanish with time.
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Sarin Adler
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Posted - 2009.03.03 15:59:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Khrillian
The Law of large numbers is your friend.
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brinelan
Caldari
Victory Not Vengeance
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.03.03 17:40:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Val Karan
It becomes better as more T2 BPOs vanish with time.
Untrue. Even if there is no bpo, people still think their materials are free and will still price accordingly, which makes the rest of us move on to the next item so we can turn a profit.
Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield. |
Tarinara
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Posted - 2009.03.03 17:57:00 -
[18]
Actually: doing most inventing isn't profitable since you'll be competing with the people CCP handed out BPO's to who didn't even do any actual inventing work. Now add in the 'Free Minerals' business model most people work under and you can tell how much you'll be making. IMO: less work just to sell your Data Cores and buy the item you need.
Until CCP does something to even out the playing field for players who actually invest in the skills to do any inventing - you're basically a 'second class citizen' who's working with one arm and one leg tied behind your back. Enjoy paying the same amount per month as the folks CCP helped to kill any profit margin you might have had... 
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.03.03 17:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Val Karan
It becomes better as more T2 BPOs vanish with time.
ONLY for those items that have such a low demand that not even BPO owners can make a profit.
For pretty much every DECENT DEMAND item, the existance of T2 BPOs doesn't matter one bit.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Daosus
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.03 21:37:00 -
[20]
The purpose of Invention is to allow more people to make T2 items. That's what's happening now, and is reflected by the lower prices of T2 compared to before Invention. CCP does not control prices directly. If enough people stop inventing, the prices will rise and Invention will be more profitable. Pretty simple. The existence of T2 BPOs only means some people can make more ISK per item. If the item is in demand, inventors can still turn a profit. If the item's demand does not exceed the output capability of the BPO holders, they can undercut everyone. I suspect, though, for most items, the demand is high enough that BPO holders can't undercut because after they've sold their goods, there's still enough demand left over for inventors to make some Iskies.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.03.03 22:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Val Karan
It becomes better as more T2 BPOs vanish with time.
This statement conflicts with the reality that the most profitable inventions are ones that have BPOs precisely because people think that. If more people think like that then profit would increase if CCP gave out more BPOs, which is crazy but true.
Profit of every item should be assessed on what the profit actually is, if you go looking you'll be surprised, if you ignore items because they have a BPO, then good for you, other inventors are making far more isk by not believing that.
Originally by: Tarinara
Actually: doing most inventing isn't profitable since you'll be competing with the people CCP handed out BPO's to who didn't even do any actual inventing work. Now add in the 'Free Minerals' business model most people work under and you can tell how much you'll be making. IMO: less work just to sell your Data Cores and buy the item you need.
Until CCP does something to even out the playing field for players who actually invest in the skills to do any inventing - you're basically a 'second class citizen' who's working with one arm and one leg tied behind your back. Enjoy paying the same amount per month as the folks CCP helped to kill any profit margin you might have had...
Have you ever actually tried to invent anything / look into the profit ? The least profitable items to invent are a) things no one uses b) things that don't have a BPO. The most profitable items are ones that do have a BPO but not enough supply because inventors ignore them, because the invention 'materials are free' crowd typically sticks with items without BPOs because 'then they don't have to check that it is profitable' (which often enough leads to things without BPOs being unprofitable).
The materials are free crowd is more prevalent in inventors that get 'free' datacores than it is in the BPO owners group who probably paid several billion to several tens of billions to acquire that BPO, money they will never get back just through production, they're only hope is that the BPO won't drop in value.
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VTHokie22
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Posted - 2009.03.03 23:17:00 -
[22]
I invent T2 cruiser hulls using no decryptors and its really not a problem for me making profit. however some of it could factor in that I did buy all my materials to build my components before the whole moon mining exploit came out so I didnt get hit too hard with the prices yet cus i still have components left.
FYI my skills are nothing special...none are at 5 and a few at 3 the rest are at 4. I dont use any decryptors because I havent found them to be worth my time in inventing cruiser sized hulls.
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Tarinara
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Posted - 2009.03.03 23:48:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lord Fitz
Have you ever actually tried to invent anything / look into the profit ? The least profitable items to invent are a) things no one uses b) things that don't have a BPO. The most profitable items are ones that do have a BPO but not enough supply because inventors ignore them, because the invention 'materials are free' crowd typically sticks with items without BPOs because 'then they don't have to check that it is profitable' (which often enough leads to things without BPOs being unprofitable).
The materials are free crowd is more prevalent in inventors that get 'free' datacores than it is in the BPO owners group who probably paid several billion to several tens of billions to acquire that BPO, money they will never get back just through production, they're only hope is that the BPO won't drop in value.
Why yes I did indeed go through the whole process to actually invent something. T2 Veldspar Xtals. Those certainly don't fit into your catagory "A" or your catagory "B".
My character had to pay a fee ( small, but still a cost I've incurred ) to make some BPC's. Whether through Research Agent Farming or purchasing them, I had to acquire 4 Data Cores. So whether I've actually spent over a million ISK buying them or they're from an Agent: I'm chucking that much into the "Invention Easy Bake Oven". Just for good measure I'm dumping a shiny T1 Veldspar Xtal in for good measure ( call that 5k in cost ). I've also spent a little ISK for the invention job process itself. And after all that I maybe get a 10 run BPC out of the deal. Then I have to add more materials in just so I can make 10 of something that's selling in Jita ATM for 40k each. Probably less elsewhere. I've bought them for 34k before.
Looks to me like CCP gave people just a bit of an advantage under the old system. Even with the Jita price of 40k, I don't see were spending over a mil just to make 400k is profitable or fair. And while I'll admit there are certainly other items you can invent which move that profit margin up, the actual "Inventor" is in a hole right from the start compared to people who were given BPO's.
And before you ask Fitz: I only invented mining xtals once. Once I saw what I had spent, what I would now have to spend and then saw the market - I never bothered again.
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Susung
Alt Anti-defamation League
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Posted - 2009.03.04 00:42:00 -
[24]
We inventors have to work for our isk. Don't ignore the non bpo stuff, don't ignore modules or ammo or drones or any of it.
Do the math, so you know what your costs are and set your prices accordingly, and be willing to wait. I have seen opportunities and by the time I have gone thru all the crap to produce the stuff the market has changed 
I get my greatest satisfaction in knowing that we keep the bpo holders honest, at least. Like most players when I saw what it actually cost to produce t2 as compared to the before invention prices I was VERY pizzed. 600mil for a hulk 20 mil for a rail insane. I would happily ride at the front of any lynchmob dedicated to the destruction of t2 originals
Then there are the boneheads who pay years of profits for originals now, 6 billion for a crystal BPO !!!! WTF how many times did your mom drop you on your head.
I nnnnneeeed a drink stop rrrrrraaannting
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Breaker77
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Posted - 2009.03.04 00:50:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Breaker77 on 04/03/2009 00:52:25
Originally by: Susung
Do the math, so you know what your costs are and set your prices accordingly, and be willing to wait. I have seen opportunities and by the time I have gone thru all the crap to produce the stuff the market has changed
Although this is true, after a few failed attempts you should have most of the skills trained that will be needed for the production along with a decent amount of T2 components needed to build them so your turnaround time is shorter.
Although the cost of the skillsbooks and startup materials is somewhat high, after a while you can and will profit if you have done your research.
Invention and T2 production is kind of like Low-sec. Don't go there unless you know what you are getting yourself into.
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Drab Cane
Mining Emporium inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.04 00:50:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Drab Cane on 04/03/2009 00:54:05
Originally by: Tarinara
Once I saw what I had spent, what I would now have to spend and then saw the market - I never bothered again.
There once was a young boy, a farmer's son, that needed to haul a few gallons of water to the house. He goes out back to the water pump and starts pumping. As the water splashes on the ground, he realizes that he forgot to get something to put the water in. So he goes back into the house, grabs a small cup, walks back to the faucet, and splashes water everywhere while trying to get some into the cup.
With his clothes soaked, he walks back to the house and carefully dumps the cup of water into the sink. Cheerfully, he turns to his ma and tells her, "only a hunderd more to go!" She takes pity on him, and hands him a water bucket.
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In my initial experiment with manufacturing, I can barely beat Jita buy orders. But then again, I'm building T1 ships off of BPCs in a distant system with local materials bought with buy orders. I'm selling to the local market, with a sufficient markup to keep me happy.
Before I started manufacturing, I looked for a market that I could sell to at a decent markup, with a decent volume per week. I tested the market by buying items (often at Jita) and reselling them in my test market. Once I was confident of the pricing and volume, then I started manufacturing.
In other words, I made sure I had a market, big enough and profitable enough to handle the volume of goods I was planning on pumping out. Before I started pumping.
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- Who Dares, Wins |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.03.04 09:42:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tarinara
And before you ask Fitz: I only invented mining xtals once. Once I saw what I had spent, what I would now have to spend and then saw the market - I never bothered again.
Well, see, you just picked the wrong items... the demand for those is nowhere high enough... even T2 BPO holders barely make any profit off of this specific item !
Compare the volume of T2 Veld crystals sold with the volume of Fury Scourge sold, and you'll see what I mean.
Had you picked, say, ballistic control systems instead or, well, any of the shield hardeners, heck, even the scourge missiles... and if you did more than just 3-5-10 batches total (more like 50+ batches total) you would notice a completely different end-result.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.03.04 11:19:00 -
[28]
Some days I wish CCP didn't increase the drop rate of invention goods and left the entry cost for invention to be around a billion per field.
In fact, every day I wish that...
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.03.04 12:09:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tarinara
Why yes I did indeed go through the whole process to actually invent something. T2 Veldspar Xtals. Those certainly don't fit into your catagory "A" or your catagory "B".
They fit in a) The demand is minimal, the production on T2 ammo is huge, there are 80-160 BPOs, each churning out around 3000 per month. There are other T2 mining crystals that even the BPO owners make nothing. In that situation the BPO owners are making anything, as it happens, either inventors AND BPO owners make profit, or neither do, there are only a couple of items that BPO owners can make money on that inventors can't and those are influx in between, soon to be profitable for inventors, or not profitable for BPO holders.
Quote:
Just for good measure I'm dumping a shiny T1 Veldspar Xtal in for good measure ( call that 5k in cost ).
Doesn't make a difference to invention success Meta0 items just add cost. Not such a big deal on this item, but it will kill your calculations on other items.
Quote:
I've also spent a little ISK for the invention job process itself. And after all that I maybe get a 10 run BPC out of the deal. Then I have to add more materials in just so I can make 10 of something that's selling in Jita ATM for 40k each. Probably less elsewhere. I've bought them for 34k before.
So what exactly do you think the BPO owner is making?
Quote:
Looks to me like CCP gave people just a bit of an advantage under the old system. Even with the Jita price of 40k, I don't see were spending over a mil just to make 400k is profitable or fair. And while I'll admit there are certainly other items you can invent which move that profit margin up, the actual "Inventor" is in a hole right from the start compared to people who were given BPO's.
Cost to buy a T2 mining crystal BPO, many billions. Payback, a few million per month, tops. For that you keep a slot busy all month, which you could make several hundred million with building T1 or inventing some other T2. The 'old system' point is moot, because hardly any are in the hand of the people that won them, they're all in the hands of people that paid far more than they're worth for them.
And before you ask Fitz: I only invented mining xtals once. Once I saw what I had spent, what I would now have to spend and then saw the market - I never bothered again.
I guess the question is why did you pick the least profitable item out there, and invent it before working out the cost ? Also, why on earth pick an item that sells for 40k ? It's like you went looking for the least profitable item in existence ?
The BPO itself, makes about 33 million isk, if kept in 24x7 production for a month. And it costs several billions of isk. Invention on the other hand, you can make several times that. The same slot building capitals can make you several hundred million at least.
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Aquenno
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Posted - 2009.03.04 16:16:00 -
[30]
All i can say;
Your attitude is whats keeping me flying ships, just bought me a frieghter and has half of my JF ISK sitting in my corp wallet.
I started with 100M in isk for components and minerals and with ONE module t1 BPO. I now produce all the t2 sub components for that item, among with many others.
(this is with NO datacore alts etc or "free minerals). Everything is directly purchased from Jita and sold in jita.
Invention of modules works fine, like anything you need to research your market.
Ships I am still coming to grips with, trying to figure out profitabiltiy rates on them, but if your ignorant enough to invent a 40K isk item with a 2X400K datacores...well...you keep right on doing that, ill just save for my ansher
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