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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Astra Solare	Posted - 2009.03.04 10:48:00 - [1] For those who are disapointed with CCP broking missiles in last patch! There are petition against missiles nerf in assembly hall - http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=920962 All good people of eve, please go sign petition against missle nerf Sign petition! Save missiles!
TimMc Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.03.04 10:49:00 - [2] Still refusing to train those drone skills eh?
Astra Solare	Posted - 2009.03.04 11:07:00 - [3] Originally by: TimMc Still refusing to train those drone skills eh? I have some drone skills (not for t2 though but not far from it), but question is not about what I can do or do not. Question is about unfair missile nerf - if you learn skills for drone bots - hurray, you dont need anything else, but if you learned missiles, you had to learn drones anyway - that's not fair. Plus that was not so at beggining. Change of rules in middle of game to give advance to one side is unfair. And nothing changes fact that stealth bombers are deader than dead.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.03.04 11:20:00 - [4] Edited by: Gypsio III on 04/03/2009 11:21:55 The Assembly Hall missile whine thread will get nowhere because it's hopelessly vague. Identify a specific problem and propose a solution. Stealth bombers were useless before QR, not just by the absence of a useful role but also being unable to hurt MWDing frigates. Precisions need a boost to make them worthwhile. Rockets need help. Cruise is beyond help - a long-range anti-BS missile is simply not a particularly useful weapon system. That's about it really. Other missiles are fine. Heavies, in particular, are massively more effective than pre-QR.
Khornne Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.04 11:20:00 - [5] My only trained weapon system are missiles with around 9m SP in it. No problem with them here. I hate to be that kind of poster but learn to use them, learn about the modules that help you use them and get more SP. -- si vis pacem, para bellum If you wish for peace, prepare for war.
Mish'Kala Minmatar Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.03.04 11:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Astra Solare but if you learned missiles, you had to learn drones anyway - that's not fair. If you learn Hybrids, you need to learn drones. If you learn Projectiles, you need to learn drones If you learn Enegy turrets, you (guess what) need to learn drones. Drones are universal. Ever noticed hoe the drone boats have less resources to fit guns?
AKULA UrQuan Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.04 11:41:00 - [7] Originally by: TimMc Still refusing to train those drone skills eh? ....or train target painting skills. My mission running raven (only area I use missiles these days) only required a target painter to adapt to the QR missile change.
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.04 11:55:00 - [8] Tbh there is a radical difference between my CNR and my Nightmare. As in the nightmare is always better it can easily pop 20++ frigs in less than 2 minutes assuming they start at 30km away or further. Same can be done in a cheaper gunnery boat. A BS size gun will often take out a frigate in a single hit meaning your 4 turrets can drop 1 frigate a pop. That same frigate will under normal circumstances require between 3 and 20(in case of angel spies and other nasty elite frigs) Salvoes of cruise missiles that means 60 cruise is roughly equal to a single Large turret cycle in the worst case scenario. One sees something similar with cruisers , and to a certain extent battlecruisers. In fact the only type of missiles that is close to matching a gunnerybased marauder or Nightmare when it comes to raw damageoutput vs Battleships is torpedoes for all other targets large BS guns > missiles. This is ofcourse assuming the pilot is awake and taking care of keeping distance and maintaining a low transversal. Which is stupidly easy btw. And 20ish frigs is under normal circumstances 5-10 minutes of dronework if your droneskills are excellent. Add in the PvP downside where any reasonably intelligent pilot in a small ship will never be hit by missiles due to warping , or maintaining a speed where the damage taken is irellevant anyway(passive shieldregen > missile dmg), hams can be an exception to this rule though. "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:03:00 - [9] my missile are fine. also torps own now even more in missions. my friend has a golem with 2 target painters. he insta pops cruisers/bc.
Khornne Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:05:00 - [10] Originally by: Hyveres Tbh there is a radical difference between my CNR and my Nightmare. As in the nightmare is always better it can easily pop 20++ frigs in less than 2 minutes assuming they start at 30km away or further. Same can be done in a cheaper gunnery boat. A BS size gun will often take out a frigate in a single hit meaning your 4 turrets can drop 1 frigate a pop. That same frigate will under normal circumstances require between 3 and 20(in case of angel spies and other nasty elite frigs) Salvoes of cruise missiles that means 60 cruise is roughly equal to a single Large turret cycle in the worst case scenario. One sees something similar with cruisers , and to a certain extent battlecruisers. In fact the only type of missiles that is close to matching a gunnerybased marauder or Nightmare when it comes to raw damageoutput vs Battleships is torpedoes for all other targets large BS guns > missiles. This is ofcourse assuming the pilot is awake and taking care of keeping distance and maintaining a low transversal. Which is stupidly easy btw. And 20ish frigs is under normal circumstances 5-10 minutes of dronework if your droneskills are excellent. Add in the PvP downside where any reasonably intelligent pilot in a small ship will never be hit by missiles due to warping , or maintaining a speed where the damage taken is irellevant anyway(passive shieldregen > missile dmg), hams can be an exception to this rule though. Please tell me this is a troll. Missiles = huge range, no need for optimal, damage adeption Turrets = tracking, optimal, mostly fixed damage type Why people don't get it... 20 frigates is 5-10 minutes drone work? You know that you can use 5 of them and there are T2 drones, right? -- si vis pacem, para bellum If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

TrollmoreX	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:14:00 - [11] 2/10 (for the effort). Seriously.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Khornne Please tell me this is a troll. Missiles = huge range, no need for optimal, damage adeption Turrets = tracking, optimal, mostly fixed damage type Why people don't get it... I fly a Golem at the moment for missions (PvE!) and there is absolutely no problem with missiles. Having aprox. 1000 DPS without cap. usage on 65km range with the best damage type seems like it's a good weapon system to me. Frigattes are killed by drones. BS are 3-4 volleyed, BC/C mostly 1-2 volleyed. Target Painters help. Please tell me this is a troll. Missiles = huge delay time, range is lower if target moves, damage is always reduced, all npc have anti missile systems even more reduced dmg, less theoretical dmg than turrets, damage reduction if enemy moves ,doesnt move and not larger class than your missile launcher Turrets = allways hit ,if enemy doesnt move sideways,insta dmg no delay at all, there wont be fail shot where you shoot but your missile never reach the target, easily isntapopps even frigs with bs guns, you can change ammo to more dmg if target is closer Why people don't get it...
Brother Galladrinal Standing Rock Company United Rock Enterprises Ltd	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:20:00 - [13] Ah come on....any decent mission runner should train drone skills as a matter of course right? I trained t2 Gallente drones before t2 missiles, makes it a lot easier to mission in a Raven that's for sure. As for missiles, Heavys, HAMs and Torpedos are all good if trained and used with the right mods.
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Khornne Edited by: Khornne on 04/03/2009 12:08:13 Originally by: Hyveres Tbh there is a radical difference between my CNR and my Nightmare. As in the nightmare is always better it can easily pop 20++ frigs in less than 2 minutes assuming they start at 30km away or further. Same can be done in a cheaper gunnery boat. A BS size gun will often take out a frigate in a single hit meaning your 4 turrets can drop 1 frigate a pop. That same frigate will under normal circumstances require between 3 and 20(in case of angel spies and other nasty elite frigs) Salvoes of cruise missiles that means 60 cruise is roughly equal to a single Large turret cycle in the worst case scenario. One sees something similar with cruisers , and to a certain extent battlecruisers. In fact the only type of missiles that is close to matching a gunnerybased marauder or Nightmare when it comes to raw damageoutput vs Battleships is torpedoes for all other targets large BS guns > missiles. This is ofcourse assuming the pilot is awake and taking care of keeping distance and maintaining a low transversal. Which is stupidly easy btw. And 20ish frigs is under normal circumstances 5-10 minutes of dronework if your droneskills are excellent. Add in the PvP downside where any reasonably intelligent pilot in a small ship will never be hit by missiles due to warping , or maintaining a speed where the damage taken is irellevant anyway(passive shieldregen > missile dmg), hams can be an exception to this rule though. Please tell me this is a troll. Missiles = huge range, no need for optimal, damage adeption Turrets = tracking, optimal, mostly fixed damage type Why people don't get it... I fly a Golem at the moment for missions (PvE!) and there is absolutely no problem with missiles. Having aprox. 1000 DPS without cap. usage on 65km range with the best damage type seems like it's a good weapon system to me. Frigattes are killed by drones. BS are 3-4 volleyed, BC/C mostly 1-2 volleyed. Target Painters help. 20 frigates is 5-10 minutes drone work? You know that you can use 5 of them and there are T2 drones, right? T2 drones are not that fast yes they blow cheap 10-15k bounty simple T1 frigs in 5-10 sec but add in a few elite frigs and they take uptowards a minute on each assuming all support skills at 4. Generally speaking for any nonfrig target they will never reach orbit range before dying so tracking is a moot point , by changing ammo I slightly reduce damage but gain ~100 km range. And I can deal effective damage out to around 50 km with multifrequency ammo. Normal volley damage is 4-6k assuming no wrecking hits or such. You might get that kind of performance in a torpgolem but why use it when a paladin or Nightmare will do better vs any nonangel target. "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:22:00 - [15] Originally by: TrollmoreX 2/10 (for the effort). Seriously. That is pretty generous. Whining when you didnt even bother training drone skills. Yes at range guns do fine against approaching targets, as soon as they start orbit they will never hit them. I have a faction fit navy mega with good skills, and a mostly faction fit cnr with skills somewhere between sufficient and decent, but far worse than gunnery skills. It isn't even close who is better against serpentis and guristas. Against other factions the difference is even larger. And while you have to watch transversal all the time, even with navy mega with SS tracking computer, a CNR can just launch away. --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Khornne Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Naomi Knight Please tell me this is a troll. No, sorry. Originally by: Naomi Knight Missiles = huge delay time, range is lower if target moves, damage is always reduced, all npc have anti missile systems even more reduced dmg, less theoretical dmg than turrets, damage reduction if enemy moves ,doesnt move and not larger class than your missile launcher What? Who cares about the INITIAL delay in PvE, after the first volley there is no more delay. (cycle wise) NPC have anti-missile system, group your weapons and/or use torps and you will never lose any DPS. Damage is ALWAYS reduced? Why is that? Please explain and pleae be more correct. Damage reduced if your enemy moves FASTER then your explosion velocity. And there are skills, implants to reduce that factor to ALMOST zero in PvE. Originally by: Naomi Knight Turrets = allways hit ,if enemy doesnt move sideways,insta dmg no delay at all, there wont be fail shot where you shoot but your missile never reach the target, easily isntapopps even frigs with bs guns, you can change ammo to more dmg if target is closer Always hit? You always hit a 200km target with small blasters? Cool! Telling people that something always hits is plain stupid. Missiles reach the target if it is in range, without any doubt. Turrets CAN miss. Shooting Frigattes with BS sized guns, no comment. No need to do so as drones do it while you kill BS/BC/C. Yeah with closerange ammo you will MAYBE get to the same DPS as a missile boat with 65km torps. =) Originally by: Naomi Knight Why people don't get it... I dunno... :shrug: -- si vis pacem, para bellum If you wish for peace, prepare for war.
Xapharia WOLIMAZO INC	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:41:00 - [17] Only problem with missiles is sniping... The missiles just take TOO LONG to get to the target. In fleet combat you have to aim for the secondary target to land a hit before it pops Increase missile velocity by a lot and decrease flight time to compensate. An another hand... CRUISE MISSILES ARE NOT DESIGNED AS ANTI-FRIG WEAPONS. Get drones skills like everyone else. _________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
Khornne Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:44:00 - [18] Originally by: Xapharia Only problem with missiles is sniping... The missiles just take TOO LONG to get to the target. In fleet combat you have to aim for the secondary target to land a hit before it pops Increase missile velocity by a lot and decrease flight time to compensate. An another hand... CRUISE MISSILES ARE NOT DESIGNED AS ANTI-FRIG WEAPONS. Get drones skills like everyone else. This TBH. Cruise missiles are fine for PvE but in sniper fleets they could use a boost in one type (e.g. precisions) like +100% speed -100% flighttime. -- si vis pacem, para bellum If you wish for peace, prepare for war.
Brodde Dim Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:48:00 - [19] Missiles in general are fine. Still rockets and cruise missiles could use some minor tweaking. (So could a bunch of turrets). No need for a threadnaught or mass rage quit about it. Asking CCP to go back to the old mind numbingly simple and over effective missiles is crazy talk imho.
Khornne Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:51:00 - [20] Originally by: Brodde Dim Missiles in general are fine. Still rockets and cruise missiles could use some minor tweaking. (So could a bunch of turrets). No need for a threadnaught or mass rage quit about it. Asking CCP to go back to the old mind numbingly simple and over effective missiles is crazy talk imho. And it will never happen anyway. Fix cruise missiles or better change one T2 ammo type to get a decent sniper ammo. Fix stealth bombers with a minus ROF bonus and plus damage bonus. -- si vis pacem, para bellum If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

Xapharia WOLIMAZO INC	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:52:00 - [21] Originally by: Khornne Cruise missiles are fine for PvE but in sniper fleets they could use a boost in one type (e.g. precisions) like +100% speed -100% flighttime. -100% flight time would result in 0.0 seconds flight time just so you know _________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
Brother Galladrinal Standing Rock Company United Rock Enterprises Ltd	Posted - 2009.03.04 13:18:00 - [22] How about missiles that can MWD to a target over 150km?
TimMc Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.03.04 13:18:00 - [23] Edited by: TimMc on 04/03/2009 13:22:49 Edited by: TimMc on 04/03/2009 13:21:27 Originally by: Brodde Dim Missiles in general are fine. Still rockets and cruise missiles could use some minor tweaking. (So could a bunch of turrets). No need for a threadnaught or mass rage quit about it. Asking CCP to go back to the old mind numbingly simple and over effective missiles is crazy talk imho. Yeah. Imo since the sig radius is now so much of a factor, it might be a good change to have 100% increase in velocity and -50% to flight time. Rockets are obviously broken, needing alot more damage 100-200% more. Turrets needing fix... Large blasters are whined about more than they need fixing, large pulses are not nearly as overpowered as people pretend, but large artillery really does need a buff. Edit: oh yeah and to the caldari people who are whining about drone boats only needing drone skills... You forget (or do not know), that the skills for t2 heavies are longer than t2 cruise missiles. Also there is another extremely long skill to get semi-good damage. Even at that point, 5 Ogre IIs will only do about the same damage as a raven with only missiles. Add on the fact the raven can be fielding 5 medium drones too, and you can see why droneboats are very slow for mission running. Edit2: And hence, Droneboats fit guns and drones to buff damage. Congrats now we are using 2 weapon systems, requiring alot more training than a raven ever could to max out.
Khornne Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.04 14:07:00 - [24] Edited by: Khornne on 04/03/2009 14:08:00 Originally by: Xapharia Originally by: Khornne Cruise missiles are fine for PvE but in sniper fleets they could use a boost in one type (e.g. precisions) like +100% speed -100% flighttime. -100% flight time would result in 0.0 seconds flight time just so you know Wouldn't it be cool? Yeah my bad, basic maths are hard mmkay. What I mean is double the speed and cut the flighttime in half. To TimMC: You forget that heavy drones are very, very slow. ;-) -- si vis pacem, para bellum If you wish for peace, prepare for war.
Mish'Kala Minmatar Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.03.04 14:19:00 - [25] Stop all the fighting, Feel the love. Remove all weapons from eve and replace them all with LASER TORPEDOES
Cade Morrigan Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.04 15:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Khornne Originally by: Naomi Knight Please tell me this is a troll. No, sorry. Originally by: Naomi Knight Missiles = huge delay time, range is lower if target moves, damage is always reduced, all npc have anti missile systems even more reduced dmg, less theoretical dmg than turrets, damage reduction if enemy moves ,doesnt move and not larger class than your missile launcher What? Who cares about the INITIAL delay in PvE, after the first volley there is no more delay. (cycle wise) Every wasted shot is lost DPS, and there are plenty of wasted shots as your last two salvos of missiles stroll their way towards a target as it pops. Quote: NPC have anti-missile system, group your weapons and/or use torps and you will never lose any DPS. Wrong, defenders still reduce your dps; grouping doesn't get around that effect. Quote: Damage is ALWAYS reduced? Why is that? Please explain and pleae be more correct. Damage reduced if your enemy moves FASTER then your explosion velocity. And there are skills, implants to reduce that factor to ALMOST zero in PvE. The explosion velocity and/or radius of pretty much every missile type ensures that significant motion from the target will reduce the damage done. Have you not flown a missile boat since QR? In any case, her point was, if a turret is shooting at a 550m/sec frig that is driving straight at the shooter (as NPCs do), he gets an insta-pop on the target. However missiles will have their damage significantly reduced from speed tanking no matter what the angle so it takes multiple full-broadside salvos of missiles to kill an incoming frig. Originally by: Naomi Knight Turrets = allways hit ,if enemy doesnt move sideways,insta dmg no delay at all, there wont be fail shot where you shoot but your missile never reach the target, easily isntapopps even frigs with bs guns, you can change ammo to more dmg if target is closer Always hit? You always hit a 200km target with small blasters? Cool! Telling people that something always hits is plain stupid. Missiles reach the target if it is in range, without any doubt. Turrets CAN miss. That's why you need to read for the spirit of the post rather than literally. When my rockets can hit at 200km and your blasters can't then you'll have a point. Her point was, again, inbound targets with no signficant angular velocity (typical of an npc engagement) die so fast to BS guns it's silly.
Dracthera	Posted - 2009.03.04 15:22:00 - [27] Cruise missiles are the only ones that need some re-adjustment. Other missiles are fine. Just need to train your missiles skills some more (TNP, CMP), and your missiles will do fine. If you really need more help, you have to change your setup to include a painter with good painting skills (SF, TP, LDJ), and perhaps T2 drones with good drone skills. I've seen no difference in my missile performance since QR, and because I've been training those other skills I actually saw my damage go up.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.04 15:29:00 - [28] Two wasted volleys? That is only possible if the target is further than 80km away from you (check the dps of a megathron at that range for example), and you are stupid enough to keep launching missiles at a target you know wont survive another volley. Cruise and heavy missiles can use higher velocity with lower flight time, but not too much. They shouldnt become like turrets. Rockets just need more dps. --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Kingwood Amarr Defile.	Posted - 2009.03.04 15:40:00 - [29] Once, a long, long time ago, when I had less than 5 mil SPs I made posts like this complaining about something. Then I realized what a ****** I am. Someday, Astra and Naomi and all the others will hopefully realize the same.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.03.04 15:52:00 - [30] Quote: Once, a long, long time ago, when I had less than 5 mil SPs I made posts like this complaining about something. Then I realized what a **** I am. Someday, Astra and Naomi and all the others will hopefully realize the same. This. --- Originally by:** 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts



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