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Yargan Rasaan Gallente Informal Syndicate of Pilots	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:00:00 - [1] This is kind of a reply to this thread: The Rise and Fall... Basically that is yet another "how to get more people into low-/0.0 sec" thread, at least imo. What gets me to start this topic, though, is the statement that player-owned-empires failed to exist, due to CCP failing to fix sovereignity-issues. Now, I am a bit of carebear, I don't want to get podded or blown up if not necessary, but I finally got really funking bored of running missions in hisec. So I remembered why I started playing Eve in the first place: the good old Freelancer-feeling (anyone played Freelancer? Sure u did). So I am looking for exactly those player-empires. And I'm actually willing to risk my ship/implants/stuff. And now I read that those "empires" don't exist. Okay, I'm not entirely convinced of that, but let's assume it's true. WHY do they not exist? From what I know of Eve, it should be quite possible. So imo, it's mainly the players who failed building those empires, because everybody just wanted to pvp, be a lone pirate etc. So, someone please explain to me what's wrong with the current sov-system (of which I don't have a clue about, tbh), and if there is anything resembling an empire run by players, tell me. Enlighten me. Flame me if I deserve it, but explain why if doing so. If you want more people to go to 0.0, make it a place interesting, and don't wait for CCP to "move more stuff to 0.0". In Empire, the rumour amongst many people goes, that most of 0.0 space is a hostile extremely dangerous place. I only currently heard the opposite and ventured there and was quite pleased. Build more Stations. Encourage traders. And that's what has to happen in the first place. Maybe that already has happened and didn't work out, I don'tknow. Again enlighten me or flame me.
Cat o'Ninetails Rancer Defence League	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:03:00 - [2] scary bubbles are what is wrong with 0.0 and why nobody goes there visit my blog for my adventures
Hariya	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:11:00 - [3] Also they should remove the repulsive things from 0.0 ... Most important being sovereignity. Killing it entirely would end the stupid politics, and it would become more about pewpew.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:14:00 - [4] Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails scary bubbles are what is wrong with 0.0 and why nobody goes there Well, it will be fun to see if the number of players going to low sec will increase with the next expansion pack due to the increase in NPC bounties, since they have brought in NPC battleships... Most likely the number of pirates will increase just as propotionally and scaring the bold players away from low sec again.. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:16:00 - [5] Act 1, Scene 1: Location, Mara (0.4) in Lonetrek. VICTIM comes chugging along with his warp core stabbed Itty 5 in Dantumi, heading for OSSA. His scout in MARA tells him L33tPwNr, LolZNubDeath, BrbMomsComing and OMFGL33tDeath is sitting on the gate in a Megathron, and Absolution, a Falcon and a Arazu.. VICTIM: [Thinking loud] I think I'll go to Piekura instead. L33tPwNr: ****, nothing's ever happening in lowsec. LolzNubDeath: Lolz! BrbMomscoming: [Silent agreement] L33tPwNr: Nerf high-sec! LolzNubDeath: Lolz! BrbMomsComing: [Silent agreement] L33tPwNr: I wrote about this on the forums. CCP better act! VICTIM: [Docks in Piekura] --- Wtf happened to my sig now?
Yargan Rasaan Gallente Informal Syndicate of Pilots	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:18:00 - [6] Originally by: Hariya Also they should remove the repulsive things from 0.0 ... Most important being sovereignity. Killing it entirely would end the stupid politics, and it would become more about pewpew. Though pewpew may not be bad generally, that's actually what keeps people away, u know...
Micheal Dietrich Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:20:00 - [7] Originally by: Yargan Rasaan Originally by: Hariya Also they should remove the repulsive things from 0.0 ... Most important being sovereignity. Killing it entirely would end the stupid politics, and it would become more about pewpew. Though pewpew may not be bad generally, that's actually what keeps people away, u know... Sure as hell ain't going out there to learn how to sow.
Zel Nughat Amarr Nughat Corp	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:22:00 - [8] there is nothing wrong with 0.0 in the sense of it being broken or that 'empires' cannot be built, it's just that there is a lot of competition and that is hard to keep your space if you are not careful ------------------------------------------- The moon is a terrible mistress... ...who walks the night with demons of dread.
Rpeg Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:26:00 - [9] My suggestion for un-carebearing: Bring low-sec to high-sec. - Have security ratings fluctuate from time to time based on conditions. - From 0.5 to 0.4 is a good introduction for people in high-sec. - Like living in a neighborhood that's going to ****. -- autechre - ep7 - track 1: rpeg estevancarlos.com
Rellik B00n	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:31:00 - [10] ok heres a reply, including to that heap of **** that rells wrote: 0.0 is just a big yawn-fest. problems include but are not limited to: POS warfare Sov warfare Alliance mechanics Egos Bubbles Cap warfare and support fleet mechanics (fun for caps, yawn for everyone else) Titans 0.0 Markets I think that covers the basics but frankly i have more fun flipping a can in hi sec than all the times ive lived in 0.0
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:36:00 - [11] Lol scaring the bold players. A 'bold' newbie goes to pvp space willing to try something new. If they decide being blown up sucks they might make a real decision not to go back. IF they can't emotionally handle losing an internet spaceship and fear the possibility I question the term 'bold' in the first place. There are people who enjoy lowsec and 0.0. They're there already. "Bold" doesn't describe them either. They're either asshats who enjoy making other people fail, or masters of the cowardly art of running away. Or more likely both. That how you succeed in the serious business of internet spaceships. Its seriously more like real world combat than any other game I've ever played. Sometimes it takes hours sitting around, manuevering, running, metagaming, before getting a kill. There are good things you can say about people willing to do this. Calling them bold is a bit off message. There are people who dont enjoy lowsec or 0.0. This is a large chunk of the population. I dont understand how they have fun in EvE but whatever. But theyre probably never going to enjoy pvp space. Then there are a few people that if they ventured into lowsec/0.0 they would find that they liked it. They will always trickle in and slowly become the first kind of peole. Of course there are bold idiots who run around doing stupid ****, like taking slow ships through heavily pirated systems without a scout. Natural selection insures that they will be relatively infrequent. As far as Yargan goes, I recomend going and reading the complaints about the agility buff.
Catrha Steinard	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:37:00 - [12] There is absolutely nothing wrong with the sovereingty stuff. Thats how our empires show themselves and their strength. There should be more to 0.0 then just sov but it still is good. The best way to fix 0.0 is to add more pipes to it. Which would mean that access would be easier as camps would have to be spread out more. 0.0 isnt high-sec. You cant just "go there". You have to either rent, fight, or brownnose. That is what makes this game great. Real competition, and if you don't like it call a whambulance.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:38:00 - [13] I get out to 0.0 alright, but I'm not joining an alliance. Every situation where I've tried/proposed has resulted in whatever activity I would undertake being vastly cost-ineffective compared to my highsec activities. This can be summed up to the following: - Alliances see key POS structures in my plans to be a "security risk" and have policies such as "No Large POS/Refineries/Assembly Plants". - Alliance "fees" (aka "Gief me fr33 moni3s j00 nub!") basically develop a monthly cost:gross profit ratio where mining veldspar/mission running in high sec is much more profitable than the high end rats/mining. POS tasks would be profitable, but THATS RIGHT! I'm not allowed to set up the structures which would make me profit! --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:55:00 - [14] Fix Pos warfare. Sov mechanics Capitals Titans Low income for normal grunts in 0.0 Mining Make it worthwhile to live in 0.0 again, not just have your pvp alt there while your iskgrinder is in high sec.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.03.05 20:58:00 - [15] Remove POS from Sov and the issue will go away almost overnight
Skram Strategic OverKill	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:10:00 - [16] Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails scary bubbles are what is wrong with 0.0 and why nobody goes there I got to this post and am forced to agree.
Piratejoeh	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:15:00 - [17] First off Eve does not need "Saving", its doing fine right now as it is. I might be wrong but I believe CCP's subscription numbers are slowly going up not down. I think what you ment was Save my (your) playstyle (fun) vs what most Eve players consider fun. As always in these threads it boils down too Risk vs Reward. Most as in almost all Eve players feel the Risk is too great in Lowsec vs the Reward of going their other then passing thru.
Junko Togawa	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Demeterus Act 1, Scene 1: Location, Mara (0.4) in Lonetrek. VICTIM comes chugging along with his warp core stabbed Itty 5 in Dantumi, heading for OSSA. His scout in MARA tells him L33tPwNr, LolZNubDeath, BrbMomsComing and OMFGL33tDeath is sitting on the gate in a Megathron, and Absolution, a Falcon and a Arazu.. VICTIM: [Thinking loud] I think I'll go to Piekura instead. L33tPwNr: **, nothing's ever happening in lowsec. LolzNubDeath: Lolz! BrbMomscoming: [Silent agreement] L33tPwNr: Nerf high-sec! LolzNubDeath: Lolz! BrbMomsComing: [Silent agreement] L33tPwNr: I wrote about this on the forums. CCP better act! VICTIM: [Docks in Piekura] Posting to confirm this is amusing. Finally, when EvE's numbers start to drop instead of rise, then maybe there will be something wrong with it. Until then, cry more, every time a gankbear whines a Mission Runner gets a shineh new CNR. P.S.: Write moar! I wish to see what OMFGL33tDeath has to say! Originally by:** Dreximus Originally by: Alowishus These things make the game more exciting overall for people who enjoy risk and the ability to take responsibility for their own safety. At the risk of being cliche, th
Coriander Rinne Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:38:00 - [19] I preface this by saying the true problem will never, EVER be fixed. The game is too established, and people would not accept the necessary change to fix it. That said, the true problem is that money's too good and too easy to make in highsec. The solution? Move EVERY LAST L4 agent into low/nullsec. Every. Last. One. I would go so far as to say move the high quality L3 agents to lowsec as well. When you can make 5x the money in lowsec than highsec, it then actually becomes worth the risk. Would also nerf nocx, mex, isogen, zydrine, and megacyte yields from reprocessing loot and alloys by 50%. In regards to complaints about sov: The nice thing about EVE is that you can say x little piece of space belongs to you when you have sov on it. As much as people may not like the responsibility of defending their space or trying to break someone else's sov, I dunno how you simplify the mechanic without making sov meaningless. Removing the context for PvP makes this game no better than WoW and its pointless arena system. I think the changes I mentioned would motivate people to participate in PvP more because they actually have more to defend than sov, they have to defend their income. No more empire missioning on the weekdays for easy cash. All of that said, such a change could never happen. Wishful thinking, I guess. :/
Eisbrecker Minmatar DevilDog Brigade	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:42:00 - [20] Originally by: Demeterus Act 1, Scene 1: Location, Mara (0.4) in Lonetrek. VICTIM comes chugging along with his warp core stabbed Itty 5 in Dantumi, heading for OSSA. His scout in MARA tells him L33tPwNr, LolZNubDeath, BrbMomsComing and OMFGL33tDeath is sitting on the gate in a Megathron, and Absolution, a Falcon and a Arazu.. VICTIM: [Thinking loud] I think I'll go to Piekura instead. L33tPwNr: ****, nothing's ever happening in lowsec. LolzNubDeath: Lolz! BrbMomscoming: [Silent agreement] L33tPwNr: Nerf high-sec! LolzNubDeath: Lolz! BrbMomsComing: [Silent agreement] L33tPwNr: I wrote about this on the forums. CCP better act! VICTIM: [Docks in Piekura] "Brbmomscoming" ...lol, hilarious! Thanks for the laugh. Can I name my next character this?
Blackjack Turner Caldari Inverted Awareness	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:56:00 - [21] Originally by: Coriander Rinne *stuff* Not every-freaking-body wants to pvp!!! As a matter of fact, if you made missions instanced like Guildwars, made pvp by consent, and totally ruled out suicide ganking in Empire, subs would go through the roof in one year. BTW - if Eve is dying why are we seeing record breaking numbers recently in people online? 50K+ is Eve dying? Anyway, I like Eve as is. I dabble in PVP. I dabble in trade. When I get bored with one aspect, I switch to another. "Carebears" have just as much right to play this game as griefers. CCP knows if they suddenly moved level three and four agents to low sec, they'd lose a large portion of the player base. Add up all of the 0.0 alliance members, then see what percentage of 260,000 players that makes. Next add in all of the low sec griefers (I know, you call yourselves pirates) and see how that compares. I'm pretty sure it's not a large portion of that sub base.
Andrest Disch Amarr Letiferi Praedones	Posted - 2009.03.05 21:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Coriander Rinne I preface this by saying the true problem will never, EVER be fixed. The game is too established, and people would not accept the necessary change to fix it. That said, the true problem is that money's too good and too easy to make in highsec. The solution? Move EVERY LAST L4 agent into low/nullsec. Every. Last. One. I would go so far as to say move the high quality L3 agents to lowsec as well. When you can make 5x the money in lowsec than highsec, it then actually becomes worth the risk. Would also nerf nocx, mex, isogen, zydrine, and megacyte yields from reprocessing loot and alloys by 50%. In regards to complaints about sov: The nice thing about EVE is that you can say x little piece of space belongs to you when you have sov on it. As much as people may not like the responsibility of defending their space or trying to break someone else's sov, I dunno how you simplify the mechanic without making sov meaningless. Removing the context for PvP makes this game no better than WoW and its pointless arena system. I think the changes I mentioned would motivate people to participate in PvP more because they actually have more to defend than sov, they have to defend their income. No more empire missioning on the weekdays for easy cash. All of that said, such a change could never happen. Wishful thinking, I guess. :/ The pluses to your idea; kicking hgihsec in the nuts. With a steel shoe. The tears would probably make this worth it alone. The cons; regular 0.0 grunts still make hardly any isk, and they still don't have access to decent missions if they're in sov space. And they still have to put up with stupid/boring POS shooting. You're also doing nothing to combat the fact that sov 4 is broken. Also, ultimately, most carebears mission with the endgoal of making enough ISK to PvP, by reducing their income you're increasing their risk and lessening their desire to go to 0.0/low-sec, not increasing it.
Cailais Amarr Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.03.05 22:08:00 - [23] Ironically the current view of .0 warfare as something of a failure isn't to do with the failure of the Alliance Structure, or Sov - but because of its success. .0 Alliances simply don't need neutrals. They have no requirement for trade - everything they could possibly need can be produced internally or delivered to them by their own pilots from Empire. Hence the .0 Market is largely internalised within Alliances. The .0 Alliances are essentially protectionist in outlook. This means not only can they defend their space, they can do so indiscriminately. Unlike 'real world' (cough) Sovereign powers which rely upon an element of support from the 'masses' (or face insurrection/ revolution or just plain old voter power). This in my view is the fundamental problem (beyond game mechanics of dull pos warfare) that disuades the 'carebear' from venturing into .0 - theyre excluded by default - and makes the lure of Empire life more appealing. The solution, I think, lies somewhere in a mechanic that allows for 'popular support' by the masses (neutrals) in maintaining Sov, whilst also allowing a degree of patronage from the Alliances beyond the rather crude interface of 'standings'. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Liz Laser	Posted - 2009.03.05 22:27:00 - [24] If minerals had to be actually mined in belts (rather than reprocessed out of rat/mission loot) you'd see people heading to low and null sec. Right now only a fool mines Jaspet in 0.4 when high sec rat loot yields zydrine AND megacyte. Yes, I still wear the foolscap occassionally for sh*ts and giggles, but even then I'm fully aware that I'm merely bait. If I get the Jaspet home because no one takes the bait, then fine. But I doubt that much of the zydrine on the market in Jita came from rocks.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.03.05 22:31:00 - [25] Sovereignty means POS, which in turn means millions upon millions of hitpoints that needs to be destroyed over and over again .. it is repetitive and boring. Null-sec in itself is not dangerous if you choose the entry point and route carefully (or have agreement with people whose space you visit). Bubbles are a bother to say the least, but can be avoided in most cases. Caution, paranoia and common sense will ensure survival. The Empires rise and fall at an ever increasing rate as everyone has capitals out there now, they are required for the boring POS warfare you see ... Two years ago when MC steam-rolled the north they had the biggest baddest dread fleet in existence .. today what they fielded would be laughed at as barely adequate (exaggeration to make a point). And this doesn't even include the throngs of Titans around these days. The whole sovereignty mechanic has to be reworked and capital ships needs to be re-tasked. CCP are dragging their feet, probably because they fear us and the roar an unpopular idea creates on the forums. PS: I case you missed it. POS warfare is boring! It is Borefare more than anything.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.05 22:33:00 - [26] Quote: Build more Stations. Providence holders are quite busy filling providence with stations --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Par'Gellen Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital	Posted - 2009.03.05 22:36:00 - [27] Originally by: Blackjack Turner Originally by: Coriander Rinne *stuff* Not every-freaking-body wants to pvp!!! As a matter of fact, if you made missions instanced like Guildwars, made pvp by consent, and totally ruled out suicide ganking in Empire, subs would go through the roof in one year. BTW - if Eve is dying why are we seeing record breaking numbers recently in people online? 50K+ is Eve dying? Anyway, I like Eve as is. I dabble in PVP. I dabble in trade. When I get bored with one aspect, I switch to another. "Carebears" have just as much right to play this game as griefers. CCP knows if they suddenly moved level three and four agents to low sec, they'd lose a large portion of the player base. Add up all of the 0.0 alliance members, then see what percentage of 260,000 players that makes. Next add in all of the low sec griefers (I know, you call yourselves pirates) and see how that compares. I'm pretty sure it's not a large portion of that sub base. This man speaks truth. If you silly piwates want a game of pure asshattery with no consequences then go write it yourself and leave us alone. Get back to us when you're done and let us know how uber it is --- To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.03.05 22:40:00 - [28] Pirate Hunting Permits. this could make low sec more lively if people with a high sec status could get a permit to hunt people with a certain amount of low status without fear of loosing their own. atm the pirate has to shoot first or you loose security status, but with the permit you could shoot first at someone who is low enough rating without loosing your own status. this could in theory make pirate hunting viable as you wouldnt have to run 50 missions to make up for the pirate killing.
Rpeg Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.05 23:28:00 - [29] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker Pirate Hunting Permits. this could make low sec more lively if people with a high sec status could get a permit to hunt people with a certain amount of low status without fear of loosing their own. atm the pirate has to shoot first or you loose security status, but with the permit you could shoot first at someone who is low enough rating without loosing your own status. this could in theory make pirate hunting viable as you wouldnt have to run 50 missions to make up for the pirate killing. Absolutely. maybe CCP is secretly waiting to unleash their expansion, "Motherfcking Revenge" once everyone is sorely pssed enough. I look forward. -- autechre - ep7 - track 1: rpeg estevancarlos.com
Terra Jennings	Posted - 2009.03.05 23:48:00 - [30] I agree with something similar to the pirate hunting license. I remember just starting and seeing low-sec players around I asked in main channels "hey this guy has a 10 mil bounty. I can pop him right? and get the isk?" and everyone was like 'no you will lose sec-status if you shoot him first'. I mean WTF? I was all excited seeing all these high bounties, thinking I could make a living off bounties but no, I would be a 'criminal' if I shot at pirates. Doesn't make any sense. Also this would get rid of what I've been hearing that bounties are only good for letting your friend pod u and splitting the money. I mean come on, is that what the bounty system has been reduced to?!?111?! People talk about ways to increase PVP that ultimately sounds like getting more people to engage in aggressive low sec pvp. This on the other hand would get a bunch of carebears involved with pvp (like everyone wants) but on the new anti-pirate side of PVP. But I also was thinking about the suggestion to move all level 4 agents to low sec. While that might not be the best idea because pirates would camp systems with the best lvl 4 agents, maybe making level 4 agents purchasable to be put only on POS would work best. This would get mission runners to start forming corps and putting POSs in low sec so they can have the best missions. Say you needed a really high standing with a faction to be able to buy/rent one of their agents. Then they would all start at quality -20 for each member but be raisable all the way to +20 after doing tons of missions.

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