Originally by: heslookinatu

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Edited by: heslookinatu on 08/03/2009 12:08:46
I have been finding lately that no fleets are wanting the blaster ships, the deimos is next to useless compared to other HAC's, the brutix is outclassed by other BC's, thorax is meh etc.

Is it in my best interest to train for the stabber/vaga/munin or amarr if i am more interested in using guns and high dps?

The vaga and stabber look like very fun ships to fly, pilgrim looks awesome, hurricane looks fun etc.

Thoughts? I am basically looking for a good gun race with decently speedy ships and good solo ships (speedy isn't required but it obviously makes it more fun i currently only fly inties)

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Originally by: NightmareX

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Originally by: Dethis

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Just have to say.

That is the most god awfully ugly killboard ever

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ORLY?



When i was in TDG, that KB was one of the few killboards we used to post killmails on.

Ofc, i posted all of my kills i had in TDG on the TDG killboard that time. But not sure if that kb still exist or if it have been down for ages now.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Can you two stop?

-Liang

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Originally by: NightmareX

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Edited by: NightmareX on 15/03/2009 14:40:57
Happster, yes it was just one example on what you can do with a Tempest.

There is tons of things you can do with a Tempest in a fleet fight.

With one ECCM and with 2x large remote armor reps for example, it can be very usefull in a RR BS gang. When the ECCM works, then it's really funny.

Heheh, now i'm waiting for sophisticatedlimabean to go omgomg reported for going off topic. But in fact, if you read the first reply to the OP, then we are free to give him some recommendation on other than just Blaster ships.

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Originally by: maralt

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Originally by: Djerin

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Actually the Goon is right. Resistances and damage types do matter in gang warfare. It's just not as obvious because both are statistically evened out between the gangs usually. But if you're clever you consider them when choosing your target. Arguably the difference isn't really huge and you'll only really now the targets resists when you get the killmail. Making the better decisions is much, much more important.

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Seriously dude if you consider resists when you choose your primary target in combat i suggest you have a good isk base before you pvp because you are gonna lose a lot of fights. The fact is that in most close range BS combat fights that ships on the top of the killmail are almost always amarr BS.

I have pvp'd a lot over the years and while i may consider ehp or maybe choose a T1 cruiser as primary instead of a T2 ship when i am doing hit and run combat cos it will die quicker i never have thought about deciding on a target in BS gang combat because of what its onmi resists may be.


Sorry i just think that considering the topic that what you are saying is a streach.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Lol. People are still arguing about this?

Blasters don't do enough peak DPS to justify their user over any other weapon type, including autocannons, and they don't have enough tracking to perform well at their optimal range.

Tl;dr: they suck when compared to other weapon systems. What is so hard to understand about that?

Lasers do as good or better than blasters vs. 'omni tanks'. Heck, with most of my current tank setups, EM resistance is usually the lowest of the four. Nightmare doesn't know wtf he's talking about.

With lasers and torps doing so much more DPS at range than blasters do at point blank Goumindong doesn't know wtf he's talking about either.

I'm half tempted to make a DHP Megathron just to shut people up.

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Originally by: Ephemeron

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Originally by: Electric Universe

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Originally by: Ephemeron

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I also look at it this way:

if another 10% pure damage boost to blasters is considered unbalanced, then game balance should be restored by a slight nerf to blaster tracking and/or optimal and falloff ranges.

That type of balancing emphasizes blaster role as the ultimate short range weapon. It makes different weapon roles more clearly defined, something that seems to be lacking right now.

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Still, around 30% more DPS for Neutrons over Pulses in web range with an omni tank should be enough anyways.

Nothing more to add to that.

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The omni tank argument is a red herring. If blasters were clearly superior against omni tanks, people would stop fitting omni tanks. People choose to fit them now knowing that overall, they get the biggest advantage, not because they want blasters to have more damage for sake of game balance.

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Originally by: maralt

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Edited by: maralt on 16/03/2009 19:48:49

So the up side of blasters is

30% more dmg against certain types of tank in their 4.5km optimal.


While lasers get:

1. Against other tanks lasers are the better choice for dmg types, although truth be told those tanks are not used on BS really but they are used on quite a few T2 ships.

2. They have 37% more ehp compared to blaster ships.

3. Instant reload if a ship is altering its range.

4. No need to reload for 10 seconds after a very limited amount of shots.

5. 400%-1000% more optimal range.

6. Match or out damage blasters from 8km-30km.

7. Do 730 gun dps from 30-45km + have a falloff while blasters do 0dps.

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Originally by: maralt

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Originally by: Electric Universe

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Lasers are outdamaged up to 8-10 km.

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Not by 30% they are not as i said the further they get away from 4.5km the less the difference is.

Originally by: Electric Universe

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When you jump in to a system and land 20-25 km (or it depends on the gate) from a target or targets, then it doesn't take many seconds to move into web range and outdamage everything.

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Id say the first ship approached will have a rough time of it as the blaster ships starting at 0ms can travel 15km + the distance the target would have traveled in say 20 secs or so (im sure somebody will have the exact figures).

But then the problem appears as they need to accelerate again from low speed after the other target ships that are now at top speed and pushing out a bucket tonne of dps between them, and the blaster ships need to do this again and again for every hostile ship they primary.

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Originally by: Electric Universe

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Edited by: Electric Universe on 17/03/2009 00:43:30
The Djego, whatever you say. CCP is NEVER gonna boost 3 other weapons systems only because of one weapon system.

That's the thing that will never happen.

Lasers is not so important and good that 3 other weapons have to be boosted instead of nerfing Lasers to be more like the 3 other weapon systems.

But still, Lasers still need to have a range advantage, because Amarr BS'es is not the ships that like to have MWD fitted, so they are slow as hell. That's why they need the range advantage.

Originally by: maralt

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And yet every experienced blaster BS pilot disagrees with you and there are a LOT of blaster pvpers in this thread saying so, and the only nay Sayers are ppl who do not fly blaster BS. Or at least have no shred of evidence that they do or ever have.

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Only low skilled Blaster Mega pilots are saying that.

You know, they want to be the pwn machine only after some few months with training of Gallente BS and Blasters.

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Originally by: Recon Three

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I read this entire thread and found no useful information. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

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Originally by: Electric Universe

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Edited by: Electric Universe on 17/03/2009 01:21:24

Originally by: Trader20

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Edited by: Trader20 on 17/03/2009 01:19:45

Originally by: Electric Universe

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Edited by: Electric Universe on 17/03/2009 00:43:30
quote]

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WTF? No mwd on an abaddon, dude gtfo, u have never pvp'd and it's showing. Bs's in general are slow as hell especialy plated ones, so the range advangtage of pulses is multiplied when considering large turret ships.

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Heh, yeah you can use MWD on an Abaddon, but thaaaaaaaaat's so gonna OM NOM NOM NOM you cap.

That's kinda funny actually.

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Originally by: Bozwel

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You say you aren't Nightmare, but now you're bringing up 1v1 Megathron versus Tempest?

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Originally by: Electric Universe

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Originally by: Zubakis

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Originally by: Electric Universe

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You also forgot that MWDing 25-30 km in a Mega doesn't take many seconds.

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R u sure? Try it out how long does it take to move 30km from a full stop. It will be like 30sec.

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Yeah, and 30 secs is long time?.

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Originally by: Esmenet

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Originally by: Koloch

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and just to note on your web comment. people fly mixed gangs for a reason. points and webs are spread out. yeah you'll get doubling up on targets, but it's not like 10 guys warp in on 10 and everyone puts a point and web on primary.

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Blaster megas are worthless in a mixed RR gang.

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Originally by: Esmenet

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Originally by: Electric Universe

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Edited by: Electric Universe on 19/03/2009 23:12:29

Originally by: Esmenet

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Originally by: Koloch

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and just to note on your web comment. people fly mixed gangs for a reason. points and webs are spread out. yeah you'll get doubling up on targets, but it's not like 10 guys warp in on 10 and everyone puts a point and web on primary.

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Blaster megas are worthless in a mixed RR gang.

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This is a joke right?.

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Try pvp once outside sisi.

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Originally by: Theron Gyrow

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Originally by: Electric Universe

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Edited by: Electric Universe on 20/03/2009 01:40:01
Meh, as long your doing everything right in a gang THAT warps on top of the other enemies gang, they are still gonna pwn the enemies as long the enemies are close to each others.

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Let's see. You say that if
1) you're the one warping in
2) you get an on-top warp-in
3) enemies are close to each other
Megathrons will win against equal-sized gangs of similarly-skilled laser BS.

Never mind on that whether that is balanced (it's not; just the first case halves the fights where you claim Megas would be competitive, the rest reduce it much further), it is actually false against competent opponents. Yeah, you will get some kills, and you can probably win over newbies who aren't fitting MWDs on their ships, but that's it. Whee.

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Originally by: maralt

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Edited by: maralt on 20/03/2009 21:02:07

Originally by: Ad Valorem

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Originally by: Trader20

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quote]

Decent summary. ASSUMING a mega lands on top of its target and dual webs it you would hope to drop it. You'd be lucky to be able to MWD anywhere after that however because you would be out of cap (no cap booster if you fit 2 webs).

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Proly refering to the hyperion although the situation only really applies to 1 v 1 BS i think as 2 webs on a hyperion make very little differance in a BS gang fight when most of the BS in it will each have a web fitted.

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Well assuming your in gang (which is pretty much all the time if you pvp)even if your fit doesn't have dual webs on it the primary target will have about 4 or 5 webs on him because of your gang members webbing him up.

Originally by: Zeknichov

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Increase blaster DPS by 20%

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Originally by: Zeknichov

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I do believe by 200% he actually means 75%.

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Originally by: Childstar

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Edited by: Childstar on 05/04/2009 20:23:23

Originally by: Trader20

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Nightmarex and Childstar, why don't you both go on sisi and have an arranged 1v1 fight and solve this problem?

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1 v 1 on sissi is for ppl without the balls to fly on TQ, so i suppose nightnare would be up for it but i only use sissi for valid TQ fit testing.

EDIT for lulz after reading nightmares reply...

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Originally by: Childstar

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Originally by: Trader20

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Realistic scenarios (except that they're fighting solo )

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No need to say anymore than that tbh.

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Originally by: Childstar

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Originally by: Trader20

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Originally by: Childstar

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Originally by: Trader20

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Realistic scenarios (except that they're fighting solo )

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No need to say anymore than that tbh.

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Nightmarex is up for it so if u think amarr bs are so good and blaster suck then prove it.

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I test on sissi for realistic scenarios on TQ, yours is not...

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Originally by: Childstar

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Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 19:08:57

Originally by: Trader20

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Why aren't they realistic, becasue they're solo?

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Correct.

Originally by: Trader20

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Your right, noone solos anymore but how else are you gonna see how two ships are balanced, by playing eft and playing the numbers game?

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Gang combat, and that is done a lot on TQ already and as has been pointed out in this thread most gallente players are using rails unless its empire ganking where the wardeck system can protect them from unknown entities an scenarios.

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Originally by: Childstar

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Originally by: Trader20

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Originally by: Childstar

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Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 19:08:57

Originally by: Trader20

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Why aren't they realistic, becasue they're solo?

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Correct.

Originally by: Trader20

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Your right, noone solos anymore but how else are you gonna see how two ships are balanced, by playing eft and playing the numbers game?

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Gang combat, and that is done a lot on TQ already and as has been pointed out in this thread most gallente players are using rails unless its empire ganking where the wardeck system can protect them from unknown entities an scenarios.

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But the only way to see if two ships are balanced is to put them sided by side. Comeon , I'll be on to watch and make sure everything goes down fair. Nightmare is sittin on tq right now and hes ready. I won't tell anyone who ur ur main is.

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I have never denied who my main is in fact i have posted it when asked in other threads, and i have no interest in 1 v 1 BS sissi fights.

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Originally by: Childstar

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Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 19:22:51

Originally by: Trader20

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So all that sh*t talking and all that "pwning" u been doing to nightmare and you still won't fight him lol.

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I test on sissi for the sort of pvp available to the ships i fly on TQ, IF solo BS 1 v 1 pvp was a valid and reasonably available form of pvp on TQ i would have tested it and be flying the best BS for the job on TQ.

It would not be the mega or the abaddon in that case btw...

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Originally by: Childstar

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Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 19:30:57


No they are not, they are comparing, tanking and dmg ratios VS all dmg types including each others for gang combat.

In fact if you check the last discussion was about the typhoon and the better overall coverage it gets against ALL incoming damage types.

The ships i have used are the phoon, mega, hyperion, abaddon and a little about the geddon but not a lot tbh, and how they perform in gang combat relative to each other.

Originally by: Trader20

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Keep backing down and nightmare might have to put these posts "childstar spankage" on his sig

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I will NEVER get into a 1 v 1 BS fight as a way to decide a issue about gang combat, if you think that is losing the argument then you are more niave than he is.

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Originally by: Childstar

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Edited by: Childstar on 14/04/2009 19:37:01

Originally by: NightmareX

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Originally by: Childstar

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Originally by: NightmareX

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Well i rather take a real 1 vs 1 fight for more facts about how a ship perform over some numbers.

Get on sisi now, or you are proven to be a liar about the Abaddon.

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1 v 1 on Sissi proves nothing, prove me wrong in gang combat on TQ or STFU.

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Your numbers proves nothing either.

It only proves numbers.

It doesn't proves how a ship is in a real fight between each others.

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My numbers are absolute and undenyable, just like the abaddons longer range and greater tank they cannot be denied.

That is because 1 v 1 does not happen on TQ enough for it to be a valid test, and if it did happen a lot i would not be using a mega or a abaddon for 1 v 1 fighting in the first place.

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Originally by: Childstar

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Originally by: Trader20

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Valid test? Testing your numbers you have been giving us the last 60 pages is not valid because......?

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Gang combat is not anything like 1 v 1.

What part of that do you not understand?.....am i not saying it right or summat?


What if i fit out a pimped neut or nos domi and use that against the abad or the mega will that mean both lasers and blasters suck?.....1 v 1 means nothing.

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Originally by: Childstar

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Originally by: Trader20

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Still waiting on sissi........

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Dont hold your breath.

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Originally by: Traderboz

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1v1 SiSi duels prove nothing about balance. It makes a convenient ploy to draw attention away from gang performance and statistics, but it has nothing to do with realistic combat. Why? Because you don't find BS 1v1's on Tranq other than staged duels and the rarest of chance encounters.

If a Mega could win a 1v1, does that mean it's a great RR gang ship? How about this, an active tanked Maelstrom could make a great 1v1 ship to fight against an Abaddon. Does that mean it's a great RR gang ship? Does it mean anything other than it's good at fighting unrealistic 1v1's?

Honestly this is just a sad joke. You claim you don't have the time to play this game with your own alliance, but you do have time to sit on SiSi and throw your epeen around on the forums challenging people to SiSi duels? You don't see absurdity in that?

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Originally by: Traderboz

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1v1 SiSi duels prove nothing about balance. It makes a convenient ploy to draw attention away from gang performance and statistics, but it has nothing to do with realistic combat. Why? Because you don't find BS 1v1's on Tranq other than staged duels and the rarest of chance encounters.

If a Mega could win a 1v1, does that mean it's a great RR gang ship? How about this, an active tanked Maelstrom could make a great 1v1 ship to fight against an Abaddon. Does that mean it's a great RR gang ship? Does it mean anything other than it's good at fighting unrealistic 1v1's?

Honestly this is just a sad joke. You claim you don't have the time to play this game with your own alliance, but you do have time to sit on SiSi and throw your epeen around on the forums challenging people to SiSi duels? You don't see absurdity in that?

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Originally by: Childstar

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Originally by: Trader20

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Originally by: Traderboz

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1v1 SiSi duels prove nothing about balance. It makes a convenient ploy to draw attention away from gang performance and statistics, but it has nothing to do with realistic combat. Why? Because you don't find BS 1v1's on Tranq other than staged duels and the rarest of chance encounters.

If a Mega could win a 1v1, does that mean it's a great RR gang ship? How about this, an active tanked Maelstrom could make a great 1v1 ship to fight against an Abaddon. Does that mean it's a great RR gang ship? Does it mean anything other than it's good at fighting unrealistic 1v1's?

Honestly this is just a sad joke. You claim you don't have the time to play this game with your own alliance, but you do have time to sit on SiSi and throw your epeen around on the forums challenging people to SiSi duels? You don't see absurdity in that?

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....hes comparing pulses and blasters in eft for 1v1 so to back up his data you would fight 1v1, I don't care if it doesnt happen on tq, hes comparing 1v1.
Now if he wants to start talking about how those ships preform in gangs that different. Also he already turned down a 10vs10, hes obviously afraid or can't fly pat a t1 frig

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I did not compare the ships in 1 v 1 i compared them and their stats in gang scenarios, IE: EHP, range, dmg even the cap used by blasters due to approaching MULTIPLE targets....how is that 1 v 1?.

And im willing to take part in gang fighting and i clearly said so.

I suggest you read back.

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Originally by: Childstar

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Originally by: RustyPwnStar

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How do we know, that what ever gang ends up on Childstars side, will be fair and above board?

NightmareX spends alot of time on sisi, who's to say he won't have friends in the right places.

Just being a neutral observer here.

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Good point tbh.

How about he just logs into TQ and gets in a mega and pvp's with his alliance instead....oooops thats right they use rails....

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