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E Prime
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Posted - 2009.03.09 09:03:00 -
[1]
hi there, i was wondering in what situations/fleets a scorpion ecm boat could be used? Because people seem to use the smaller ecm ships more, like recon ships. Are they better or is the scorp just to big for average use? thx in advance
E
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EVIL SYNNs
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.03.09 09:06:00 -
[2]
Scorp = Primary ALWAYS!
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.03.09 10:49:00 -
[3]
Best Scorpion is a tanked one, you'll buy time for your friends to gain the advantage. Let recons do the actual jamming.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.03.09 20:18:00 -
[4]
I normally slap a shield tank on the Scorp and use it as bait. Let the boys with the EWar Frigs take care of the jamming.
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Guer
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Posted - 2009.03.09 22:34:00 -
[5]
Originally by: EVIL SYNNs Scorp = Primary ALWAYS!
also cheap as dirt.
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Amali Go
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Posted - 2009.03.10 00:38:00 -
[6]
sensor damp scorp for fleets
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Robert0288
Caldari g guild Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.03.10 21:17:00 -
[7]
if scorp doesn't go down fast, it wont have jammers and thus be useless. Shift target.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.03.11 17:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: E Prime hi there, i was wondering in what situations/fleets a scorpion ecm boat could be used? Because people seem to use the smaller ecm ships more, like recon ships. Are they better or is the scorp just to big for average use? thx in advance
E
You'll never fit a Falcon or Rook that can survive a Doomsday device, but a Scorp can be set up to withstand a DD, and still be an effective ECM platform. Basically, jam strengths will be about the same between the Recon ECMs and the Scorp. You will be a conspicuous target, so I personally like the prospect of range tanking. ECM modules at higher ECM and BS skill levels will effectively jam at a 200km+ optimal with the right rigs. Other than the Rokh, not many ships can hit you at those ranges, and your shields have good resisitances against thermal and kinetic (aka rail guns). Last, a lot of smaller gangs enjoy the better mobility of cruiser-class hulls, so you'll see a lot more HAC/Recon gangs than BS/Scorp gangs roaming.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.03.11 18:19:00 -
[9]
Falcons are down to about 95mil or so. Scorpions are down to about 50mil or so
Falcons warped cloak. Operate at 200km. Leading to not dieing as often as they should. ECM scorpions on the otherhand. Operate like 100km. Arent tanked. Easy to kill. Often primary.
Truly the only real value a scorpion has is ecm burst vs tight blob. You fit just 1 ecm burst. Nothing else. When you're in fleet battles and they are bunched up. You kill 1 ship. Scorp warps. Bursts them like mad. Caldari bs 5 gives you 20km optimal and 15 multispec strength. Which is like 80% jam on non-eccm bs.
Sure you'll be dead pretty damn quick. You could ideally tank like a madman though. If you have jammed 80% of their fleet. You might tank pretty well infact. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Brian Kith
Elite Underworld Special Forces OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.11 19:21:00 -
[10]
I don't think bursts work like regular ECM. A burst will break locks, but it won't actually jam the targets.
It would be pretty much suicide to warp a Scorp into a blob for something like this.
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Feng Schui
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.12 04:30:00 -
[11]
highs fitted with a whole lot of smartbombs, ecm burst, shield extenders, 2x large armor reps, eanms..
warp into middile of fleet, let loose the smartbombs, align, ecm burst, warp out asap...
totally screws with their drones
Project:Gank
Pilgrim Guide
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2009.03.12 09:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jason Edwards Falcons warped cloak. Operate at 200km. Leading to not dieing as often as they should. ECM scorpions on the otherhand. Operate like 100km. Arent tanked. Easy to kill. Often primary.
What makes you think that a Scorpion has half the operational range of a Falcon? Check out the bonuses, Scorpion gets an ECM strength bonus and 20% ECM range bonus just like the Falcon. In fact, if you fit it like a Falcon with optimal range rigs, you get the same 228km optimal (+ 41km falloff letting you jam well right up to the locking cap) on racial ECM. The base targeting range is 25% lower, such that with a single scripted sensor booster you lock up to 180km - but you have both an extra low slot and extra rig slot, either of which can be fitted for a targeting range mod. Using both lets you lock to 249km if that's what you want.
Thus you can easily have the Scorpion operate at the same ranges as a Falcon - even if you're being really cheap and not rigging it, you'll get 180km targeting range with 162km optimal on the jammers. Personally, I reckon the extra 50km range is worth the cost - especially when you consider that the Scorp even in a full jamming configuration has around four or five times the EHP of a Falcon (six or seven if you throw a Damage Control into the fourth low). Where it loses out is the ability to warp cloaked (which can definitely help set up points in unfamiliar territory, or act as a makeshift scout), and the ECM strength bonus is 15%/level instead of 20% (though it has an extra mid = extra jammer to make up for this somewhat) plus scan resolution.
Besides, for some reason the Scorpion doesn't invoke the same fear and dejection in an enemy fleet when it shows up on scanner that a Falcon would - so while the enemy can always see it's there, you're likely to get the fight anyway. And yeah, they'll try to primary it (just like they would a Falcon) but that's not going to do them much good when it's 200km away (like a Falcon), especially when it can absorb much more damage from Ravens/Cerberii/stealth bombers/etc before it needs to warp.
Overall, Scorp is vastly underrated - probably because all of the good ECM pilots gravitate towards Falcons (probably because of the covops cloak, and I don't blame them). Thus when it does get fielded as ECM support, it tends to be flown poorly by pilots with mediocre skills (e.g. using multispecs from 70km), leading to an incorrectly low "feeling" of its abilities. In fact as you implied in your post, you feel like a Scorp has half the range of a Falcon when that's just not the case.
Falcon is slightly more powerful in the jam, and has the covops cloak. But Scorpion is cheaper, insurable, easily producible from BPOs, has much more EHP, can fit large neuts, and has better synergy with existing skills if you already have battleship 5. It's not better, but it's a lot closer than many would say. Plus it probably is better than the Rook, once you take the covops cloak out of the equation.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.03.13 09:16:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman Falcon is slightly more powerful in the jam...
On my Scorpion setups, I get the same jam strength as a Falcon or Rook. Of course, I shield tank mine so I can put 3 Signal Distortion Amps with the DC II in the lows. Ultimately, for less mobility and no cloak, you get a ship that can jam at the same range, same strength, and has 10 times more EHP than a Falcon, and 4 times as much EHP as a Rook. For roaming, the mobility of the Recons is probably more advantageous, but if you're in for a slug-fest BS fleet fight, the Scorp is a great ship.
The good news is that they're cheap enough for you to almost buy two for the price of one Falcon, so you can set one up for long-range jamming and one for shorter-range jamming, trading optimal jammer rigs for shield extender rigs. Sub in sensor boosters and ECCM as required.
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Lord Morgo
Gallente Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.03.14 19:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Von Kroll
Originally by: Gartel Reiman Falcon is slightly more powerful in the jam...
On my Scorpion setups, I get the same jam strength as a Falcon or Rook.
But no where near as fast the lock time, wherein lies the problem.
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Bastaardicious
Enrave Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.03.14 19:42:00 -
[15]
If you want to use the scorpion (more hitpoints than a falcon), I suggest putting a 1600MM plate and a EANM II on it. That will give you some more buffer tank, and your remote repping battleship buddies can rep you.
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Pride NL
Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2009.03.14 22:24:00 -
[16]
I usually fit Scorpions with three 1600mm plates and a DCU. This way I can jam and buy time for gangmates/to-get-out.
No One Better |
Von Kroll
Caldari Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.03.15 17:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Bastaardicious If you want to use the scorpion (more hitpoints than a falcon), I suggest putting a 1600MM plate and a EANM II on it. That will give you some more buffer tank, and your remote repping battleship buddies can rep you.
I've tried this setup, but the jam strength suffers. When you're trying to jam ECCM'd battleships, you need all the jam strength you can get. I understand why folks want to armor tank Scorpions, but I don't agree with the technique. I can create more EHP and much higher jam strength by shield tanking it. The fleets I run in have as many Rokh's as armor tankers, so I can pick up shields from them just the same. I can still fit remote armor reppers to support the armor tanked members of the team.
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Bastaardicious
Enrave Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.03.15 17:54:00 -
[18]
Depends what your goal is. If you're only going to fit 3 jammers, sure go ahead and shield tank it. If you're planning on jamming the maximum amount of targets you can't shield tank it.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.03.15 18:50:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Bastaardicious Depends what your goal is. If you're only going to fit 3 jammers, sure go ahead and shield tank it. If you're planning on jamming the maximum amount of targets you can't shield tank it.
Well, that's certainly the trade off. But, in my opinion, 4 high-strength jammers are sufficient for effective electronic warfare. You can use a combination of other medium slot fittings: ECCM, Sensor Boosters, etc. depending on the mission. I suppose my question would be what expectation you have out of a jamming ship? Should one ship be able to effectively jam 3 or 4 different ships? I think that may be asking a bit too much.
Again, just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.03.16 05:18:00 -
[20]
2 1600mm plates, eanm, damage control. Ewar in the mids, rr and nuets in the highs along with some random guns or something.
This ship wont keep up with a hac gang like the falcon will. It wont be a cloaky suprise. But for sitting in the middle of a bs fleet providing support you could do alot worse. Its insurable too. If you put cheap rigs or no rigs on youre not lookiong at much of a loss.
Good ships get primaried. Or at least dangerous ones. Thats why you armor tank it out. Youre providing utility, more dps than a falcon, nuets and rr. To be really annoying fit every third one or something with a massive bait buffer tank to take advantage of its status as primary.
Yes, your death is at the same priority to the enemy fc as something like a gaurdian. People still have the balls to fly guardians. But like a gaurdian its really dependant on having at least a moderate sized heavy gang around it.
Outside of the larger fleets people rarely use them. A scorpion is just not going to kill a bs in a 1v1. The same way a blackbird isnt going to run around soloing other cruisers.
And to be honest the fc of even a rr bs gang may just want another falcon instead because of its ability to survive and continue jamning.
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Dasalt Istgut
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Posted - 2009.03.16 05:30:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 16/03/2009 05:32:25 Scorpion is good for defending your home system and harassing enemies. Reason it is good for home system is because its very good at 200km with bookmarks, warping around gates jamming (like you might do with a falcon) - but is much less skill intensive to setup and has a disgusting sensor strength. Its not very good for roaming unless part of a larger RR BS fleet (and its even pretty good in that scenario). See below for an RR fit (note its good paired with other scorps and Neut domi's in a similar Cap transfer + remote rep combination). In reality you'd want to do 2 races and let another scorp handle the other two, ie, split between yourselves so you have a better chance at jamming.
[Scorpion, Remote Rep Scorp] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II ECM - Phase Inverter II ECM - Ion Field Projector II ECM - White Noise Generator II ECCM - Gravimetric II ECCM - Gravimetric II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Large Remote Armor Repair System II Large Remote Armor Repair System II Large Remote Armor Repair System II Large Energy Transfer Array II Large Energy Transfer Array II Large Energy Transfer Array II
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis SIRRIUS.
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Posted - 2009.03.16 06:14:00 -
[22]
One of the best things about Falcons is that nobody has to know that you have one and where it will be setting up for the battle, not so much on the ECM strength or range.
Scorpion works better I think in larger fleets, the element of surprise isn't as important, and the fact its cheap and has more effective HP is a good thing.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.03.17 06:44:00 -
[23]
As was already pointed out above Scorpion does not have some inherent range weakness when compared against Falcon. Falcon has advantage of being able to warp cloaked and a bit higher agility, while Scoprion has advantage of thicker hp buffer and being dirt cheap to lose after insurance.
Normal range for fleet Scorpion is 180 km (one sensor booster with range script) if I remember correct. And it can sit just fine with the main BS blob. Has also enough hi slots to fit any number of useful things flacon can not (like remote reppers or large smartbombs) altho in fleet battle what you have in your Scorpion hi slots is relatively irrelevant.
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Deserak
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.17 15:19:00 -
[24]
Scorp is fine almost anywheres, fully kitted with some cheap rigs (shield resist perhaps) will cost you maybe 10M (if you fit cheap you could possibly make money from a death) after full insurance payout when it dies. So 1 falcon loss is approaching 10-15 Scorps. Scorp operates quite happily at sniper ranges. The real kicker is all the stuff you can fit in the highs. Generally launchers/ guns are a waste as a support ship, you get no bonses there anyway. Heavy neuts, heavy nos, smartbombs and large remote reps are the way to go. You would be surprised how much surivability and utility you can get out of the thing fit like that.
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tangopapa7
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Posted - 2009.03.17 16:02:00 -
[25]
Imho it depends on what you are doing
roaming fleets will always benefit more from a Recon ship (Falcon) which can jam from 200km and warp cloaked - meaning no primary
But then again you could always use a Blackbird, can jam effectively from over 100km - might get primaried but cheap to replace
Scorpion is a good ship - just a little too expensive to lose and will always be a primary target in a fleet battle
If you want to use one - always be aligned! I have had a HAC drop straight on my position at 100km, always works better than trying to make a stand!
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