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New probe system is useless for hunting

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Prince Spiderman	Posted - 2009.03.13 12:05:00 - [1] Edited by: Prince Spiderman on 13/03/2009 12:05:37 I was playing for a few hours with that new probe system. At the first glance it looks nice at the second view after trying it I came to the conclusion - with my actual knowlegde - that it is absolutely useless to probe out eg. flashers hiding. If they move around, just forget it. Everytime I tried it took far too long compared to the former system. I never got any result under 10-15 minutes. Moving and scaling the spheres is just waste of time for an effecient hunt and finally it was getting useless to me. And actually there's one strange thing: you get a list of eg. 10 ships but no info about the shiptype in the list till you get to a closer result. On the other side you can define a filter for eg. Battleship if you looking for a specific type and this will filter the list. So I ask now: why not immediately showing the ship type in the list if setting a filter shows it to me finally?! Actually this probe system needs some speed improvements. Otherwise it's nice gadget for nerds. My 2 probes on that!
Alfons Richthofen Caldari Die Luftwaffe	Posted - 2009.03.17 11:59:00 - [2] I agree, finding people in safe spots is almost impossible now.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.03.17 12:36:00 - [3] Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 17/03/2009 12:39:42 told ya.... that said; try again with astrometrics V, aka deep space probes. i don't have it myself (yet) but i can imagine, life gets a tiny bit easier. but the fact remains that, apart from the massively nerfed probe range compared to say... fathoms, the interface is a royal PITA. i dont mean the probe+camera manipulation itself, which is bad enough already (0.5AU probes in a 30AU systems? more mouse movement than x-wing) but the combination with an important directional scanning these days (again, camera), lack of "background" right-click options in sys map, the stupid map toggling button stuff, and one of the major hinderances: probe range manipulation at those bubble "edges". i know it's "cool", looks good, can be sold well and gets mentioned as often as possible. but it cripples said camera control yet another level. tl;dr left mouse button has too many functions - sys map camera angle - sys map camera focus - dir scan camera - probe positioning (3 axis + 3 planes) - probe range manipluation oh and ofc my favourite topic: signature reducers and eccm making people invulnerable p.s. is the camera in sys map still the same as w/o map? maybe it's time to get rid of the "seamless" stuff and keep the map camera on your probes and the space camera on whereever you were looking. we are switching (F10'ing) back and forth for dir scans anyway. p.p.s. i've given it time and i still want the (very) old map back - putting the gist back into logistics
Aya Vandenovich	Posted - 2009.03.17 15:32:00 - [4] Originally by: Alfons Richthofen I agree, finding people in safe spots is almost impossible now. I'm going to have to strongly disagree here; the new probing system is amazing for hunting. If you have a target at an on/just off grid safe, or you know they close a celestial object, just throw some 0.5 au combat probes around the celestial and you will get a hit in seconds. As for other safes, all you need to do is use the directional scanner to find out roughly where they are, and then look for signatures appearing in that area. Maybe in extremely busy systems there will a lot of false hits, but I've had absolutely no problems probing out targets sat at safes with the new system, whether it's in high sec or w-space. If they move around, then yeah, that can be troublesome, but that's the way it's always been. Moving safes is a smart tactic for avoiding being probed down, however, if they use the same safes then it is entirely possible to get lucky. Somewhere In England
Snow Banshee Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.17 16:01:00 - [5] im not an expert in combat probing but i can tell you that yesterday a gang probed me in wspace just after 5 mins i was there so i dont see the problem. They caught me just fine
AnmmnA Princeps Corp Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 17:02:00 - [6] Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 17:06:13 Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 17:04:34 Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 17:03:16 Originally by: Aya Vandenovich I'm going to have to strongly disagree here; the new probing system is amazing for hunting. If you have a target at an on/just off grid safe, or you know they close a celestial object, just throw some 0.5 au combat probes around the celestial and you will get a hit in seconds. Wrong. You are assuming a lot in advance. You are assuming that you know where objective is with a margin of error of 0.25 AUs. Something really unusual. You would know it if you had used at some time the probes for hunting. With the previous system of scanning, could find a ship in 21 seconds. 21 seconds to find exact point of 95% of ships in 10 AUs range. Currently, only to launch the probes in place and position, and takes two more times + and just can scan 0,5 AU area ?. Probe hunting its completly ******ed. Now we just have a nice probing system for whormhole-explorers fun. Nothing more.
hacksideways Caldari Point Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:11:00 - [7] Edited by: hacksideways on 17/03/2009 18:14:48 Edited by: hacksideways on 17/03/2009 18:12:20 Probing is damned easy. Hunting is even easier. I've been living in w-space since the 10th, and in any system with at least one other person in it, I've never failed to find them. With anything larger than a frig, finding them at a safespot takes about two minutes. Same if they're at a sig. I've even managed to get more than one ship, at more than one safespot, 100% and warpable with only four probes, in a single scan. I often rely on other ships to help me find wh's, as most people will warp continuously back and forth between their entrance wh and whatever Sleeper sig they're farming to rep. I am currently hanging out in a system with a POS in it, populated regularly by 6+ people. That number jumps when a high-sec wh opens up. I enjoy causing havoc by giving the POS-owners the locations of the newbies' safespots. The only difficulty I've ever had is in scanning down CovOps ships. However, they have to de-cloak for brief periods of time when reloading/launching their probes. During that time, I can find them. Of course, I have Astrometrics V and am in a CovOps ship. It significantly helps to be a dedicated prober. Maybe you should get one to help you out. - Originally by: Liz Laser Exotic Dancers are cargo. That's how we roll.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:30:00 - [8] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 17/03/2009 18:32:43 Quote: With the previous system of scanning, could find a ship in 21 seconds. 21 seconds to find exact point of 95% of ships in 10 AUs range. Currently, only to launch the probes in place and position, and takes two more times + and just can scan 0,5 AU area ?. Was only true for covert ops sadly, in a force recon you were looking at 50-60 seconds, and if you used anything besides fathom + snoop you got so much deviation your warpin was worthless more often than not. New system rocks, especially for fleet warfare. Edit: if you know what you're doing, you can make sure the target only sees your probes for 10 seconds on their scanner, and infact never sees your ship, while you get a warpin at 0. Try that with the old system.
AnmmnA Princeps Corp Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:32:00 - [9] Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 18:34:18 Originally by: hacksideways With anything larger than a frig, finding them at a safespot takes about two minutes. LoL !!! ... 2 minutes ???. Anyone can catch a defenseless carebear rating alone into W-Space. I talking about hunt pvp-players. Players in Known-space, not in W-Space (systems whit local, so they know you are here). Players who don't remain in same place more than 30 seconds cause they trying escepe from you. 2 minutes ... says " 2 minutes " as if this was quick. LoooL !! Originally by: hacksideways Of course, I have Astrometrics V and am in a CovOps ship. It significantly helps to be a dedicated prober. Maybe you should get one to help you out. I flying whit Covert Ops since last 2 years. Don't try teach me about it.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:34:00 - [10] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 17/03/2009 18:34:50 Originally by: AnmmnA Players who don't remain in same place more than 30 seconds cause they trying escepe from you. As if you could ever catch these with the old system... Lulz. Besides, even this is easier with new probing system, as long as you can memorize their prior location (can be done with inactive probes).

AnmmnA Princeps Corp Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:38:00 - [11] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: AnmmnA Players who don't remain in same place more than 30 seconds cause they trying escepe from you. As if you could ever catch these with the old system... Lulz. Yes, i know ... some players were laughing at my probes while they were jumping safe to safe. After a few minutes, many of them ended up by adorning the KillBoard of my corporation.
Grey Point Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:41:00 - [12] Edited by: Grey Point on 17/03/2009 18:47:30 Edited by: Grey Point on 17/03/2009 18:46:57 Originally by: AnmmnA LoL !!! ... 2 minutes ???. Anyone can catch a defenseless carebear rating alone into W-Space. I talking about hunt pvp-players. Players in Known-space, not in W-Space (systems whit local, so they know you are here). Players who don't remain in same place more than 30 seconds cause they trying escepe from you. 2 minutes ... says " 2 minutes " as if this was quick. LoooL !! Uh huh. And you could catch people constantly changing their safespots with the old system? If they keep changing their safespots, you're screwed. Even if you have an insta-detect scan system with insta-warp, fact is if they're constantly on the move, they're going to be gone by the time you get there, and they're not coming back. Two minutes is long enough to find someone whom doesn't know they're being hunted, or is being an idiot about it. A smart person, whom doesn't want to be found, won't be, even with the old scanning system. Addendum: I am talking about hunting PVP players. I follow around the POS guys in my current w-system just for kicks. *Edit: Stupid cache... this is hacksideways.
AnmmnA Princeps Corp Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 19:03:00 - [13] Really .. If you think that in two minutes you have time enough to hunt someone, I wonder what kind of incompetent you were hunting before. And yes, before it was possible catch someone who jumping sate to safe every 30 seconds. Remember ... Once placed all the probes, you could know his exact position every 21 seconds. In whole system. The results were the exact coordinates at the end of the analysis. So ... sooner or later find the result in the instant that was coming to his safe. In this moment, you could throw the tacklers, and they have time to fall on the victim and to stop it. There were not dying they all those who were doing this, but yes an acceptable ratio.
AnmmnA Princeps Corp Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 19:08:00 - [14] Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 19:16:31 Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 19:09:22 Originally by: Grey Point A smart person, whom doesn't want to be found, won't be, even with the old scanning system. I agree. Previously smartest players can escape. Now can escape the most clever players, just clever players, standard players and bit stupid players. You can only hunt the completly foolish. Before ... 21 seconds Now ... 120 seconds That's all. Note : Sorry for my poor english level. Obviously it is not my native language and I can not argue as I wish .
hacksideways Caldari Point Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.17 19:13:00 - [15] Edited by: hacksideways on 17/03/2009 19:14:13 Originally by: AnmmnA Really .. If you think that in two minutes you have time enough to hunt someone, I wonder what kind of incompetent you were hunting before. And yes, before it was possible catch someone who jumping sate to safe every 30 seconds. Remember ... Once placed all the probes, you could know his exact position every 21 seconds. In whole system. The results were the exact coordinates at the end of the analysis. So ... sooner or later find the result in the instant that was coming to his safe. In this moment, you could throw the tacklers, and they have time to fall on the victim and to stop it. There were not dying they all those who were doing this, but yes an acceptable ratio. Well then, they were idiots, and should have warped more often, instead of every 30 seconds. Probing catches the idiots or the unaware. Always has and always will. Not to mention that I can now scan down more than one person at once (using eight probes), anywhere in the system, without ever having to de-cloak. Or even move, for that matter. No more guessing. - Originally by: Liz Laser Exotic Dancers are cargo. That's how we roll.
AnmmnA Princeps Corp Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 19:19:00 - [16] Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 19:21:53 25 seconds (+4 seconds to deploy a probe and hit "Analyze") <--- vs. ---> 120 seconds You can say all you want. Never be able to argue that it is better to take longer. Now takes the same to find a person who previously took to find six times.
hacksideways Caldari Point Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.17 19:22:00 - [17] Originally by: AnmmnA 25 seconds (+4 seconds to deploy a probe and hit "Analyze") <--- vs. ---> 120 seconds You can say all you want. Never be able to argue that it is better to take longer. 25 seconds when you know what general area of the system they're in. How much time was spent warping from place to place in the system trying get them in range of your probes? New system: everything is within range. The 120 seconds, while mutable (sometimes less, sometimes more), has no unsaid caveat, while on your end, you're leaving out the time it took to locate your target in the first place. - Originally by: Liz Laser Exotic Dancers are cargo. That's how we roll.
AnmmnA Princeps Corp Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 19:42:00 - [18] Let's see ... Each time the objective changes of place, you must start again. Do we agree with this? Well ... You are really incapable of seeing that is 6 times more likely to move during the 120" it takes now, than 25" it took before. So, now it is 6 times more difficult than before. If you hunt before someone moderately clever was hard. Now is hard-hard-hard-hard-hard-hard. So it's close to impossible. Remember that all the time I'm talking about hunt pvp-players, not unskilled carebears.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.17 19:47:00 - [19] Quote: Let's see ... Each time the objective changes of place, you must start again. Do we agree with this? No. You can drop more than 4 probes.
AnmmnA Princeps Corp Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 19:51:00 - [20] Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 19:53:24 Originally by: Kahega Amielden No. You can drop more than 4 probes. As before ... and ? Or may be you hace smart probes ? And it replaces arround your target automaticly ? When targets moves, you must rescan whole system to find out where must move your probes now. So, restart your scan.

hacksideways Caldari Point Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.17 19:57:00 - [21] Originally by: AnmmnA Let's see ... Each time the objective changes of place, you must start again. Do we agree with this? Well ... You are really incapable of seeing that is 6 times more likely to move during the 120" it takes now, than 25" it took before. So, now it is 6 times more difficult than before. If you hunt before someone moderately clever was hard. Now is hard-hard-hard-hard-hard-hard. So it's close to impossible. Remember that all the time I'm talking about hunt pvp-players, not unskilled carebears. Interesting, so am I. And I seem to have zero difficulty. I guess the problem lies with the user. - Originally by: Liz Laser Exotic Dancers are cargo. That's how we roll.
AnmmnA Princeps Corp Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 20:18:00 - [22] Edited by: AnmmnA on 17/03/2009 20:20:20 To understand the difficulty, you should have used the probes before (for hunting people, not complex). So you could compare "now" and "before". If you did not, you will never understand. Edit : If you really don't think there is any difficulty, we invite you to do some tutorials (I'm not kidding). I really am curious to know how you do.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.03.17 23:20:00 - [23] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 17/03/2009 23:20:57 Originally by: AnmmnA To understand the difficulty, you should have used the probes before (for hunting people, not complex). So you could compare "now" and "before". I've used the probes before to catch people. Was not impressed with performance (basically just spamming probes in system, with the occasional warp-bookmark-warp frenzy to get close enough), and it was boring on top. New system is kind of fun to do actually, and in the realistic scenarios you are better off than before. No way to catch a safespot hopper before, and no way now, where is the issue, everything else is better now.
CrestoftheStars Caldari Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2009.03.18 00:12:00 - [24] Originally by: Alfons Richthofen I agree, finding people in safe spots is almost impossible now. and it should be. if you can find a pilot in a frig with a probe in under 1 hour, well then you shouldn't be needing a probe AT ALL to find something as big as the exploration sites. soo seems fair to me. sucks that the easy kills are gone now doesn't it ;) ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
Phidell Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2009.03.18 00:32:00 - [25] Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: Alfons Richthofen I agree, finding people in safe spots is almost impossible now. and it should be. if you can find a pilot in a frig with a probe in under 1 hour, well then you shouldn't be needing a probe AT ALL to find something as big as the exploration sites. soo seems fair to me. sucks that the easy kills are gone now doesn't it ;) Storyline fits gameplay. CCP can invent any reason needed and the fact is PvP probing is too slow. Simply switching safespots repeatedly is good enough to prevent anyone from scanning you down. It was possible before to get a hit just as they land and warp someone ontop of them quick, an option that is removed now. Frig in under 1 hour lol. Get OUT.
AnmmnA Princeps Corp Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.18 00:47:00 - [26] Edited by: AnmmnA on 18/03/2009 00:50:19 Originally by: Omara Otawan New system is kind of fun to do actually [...] I completly agree whit this part. This new method is more fun and need more "actions" from player. Originally by: Omara Otawan [...] and in the realistic scenarios you are better off than before. EVE's world, it isn't realistic by no means. Where are Newton physics ? Basic Dynamic's laws ? Sound in void space ? Visible lasers ? Drones creating ammo from nowhere ? Ships breaking light speed ? etc ... So, why we need now a "realistic" scan system ? So, now is fun ? ... Yes. But, it's practical ? ... Absolutly no. In empire, probably all look for amusement. But in 0.0 the efficiency is more important.
Lt Angus Caldari End Game. Dead End.	Posted - 2009.03.18 00:56:00 - [27] maybe its because deeps kick ass and the systems is only 40au wide but i can find anyone in something bigger then a frig within 20 seconds please resize your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.03.18 01:38:00 - [28] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/03/2009 01:39:57 Originally by: AnmmnA In empire, probably all look for amusement. But in 0.0 the efficiency is more important. And coincidentially the new probing system is a major improvement for 0.0 fleet warfare. Agreed, you have to learn now how it works and get good at it, but that means more power to the specialist pilots, instead everyone with enough RL money for putting a months worth of training into a covops alt.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.03.18 04:54:00 - [29] Originally by: Lt Angus maybe its because deeps kick ass and the systems is only 40au wide but i can find anyone in something bigger then a frig within 20 seconds apart from that number being methematically impossible, you wont get my solo pvp scimitar... ever 55.75m, 33.32 ladar i can go afk in your 0.0 uncloaked - putting the gist back into logistics
Cadde Gallente Gene Works Initiative Associates	Posted - 2009.03.18 05:23:00 - [30] Edited by: Cadde on 18/03/2009 05:23:18 There is one thing i have to say about this is... Anyone in this thread willing to bet a billion isk that they are the BEST apocrypha prober existing and will ever exist? Until then you better improve your methods or scanning. With enough practice i think i will be able to find anything cruiser size or larger within 30 seconds as long as they don't carry ECCM, sig reducing mods or are cloaked. The only space i would have trouble finding the "right" guy would be heavily populated systems. Also, i am practicing with the new system constantly. I am able to pin down a group of drones in under 15 seconds in mission systems. That is i scan, get a 100% hit, warp and scan again. I have collected hundreds of abandoned drones with the new apocrypha system. The only thing that takes time is launching your probes and positioning them in a good fashion for the first few scans. I think it's a matter of practicing hard and finding the OPTIMAL way of narrowing down targets. Also keep in mind that if they are making new safespots all the time they eventually have to warp to a planet to "reset" the process. If they keep warping from SS to SS they are going to end up in the middle of the system eventually. If CCP change it now to make it easier it may be that the ones getting hits in 30 seconds now will get hits in < 10 seconds later. My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!

Y3R M4W	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:05:00 - [31] Edited by: Y3R M4W on 18/03/2009 06:09:53 A simple change that would make a world of difference would be showing the ship group/type of the results, at the moment when there's many people, or split results, it can be a real pain following the right one. I've only started using it today but found it was very quick and easy to find my alt, sat still at a safe, but finding a moving prophecy was basically impossible, and it took me a long time to find a missioning dominix, although that was probably error on my part. The UI can be a bit confusing too, with the overlapping, same coloured spheres making it difficult to tell which probes have covered the area and which have not. Also it would be nice to be able to jump the view to a 'face-on' view of a selected plane (x, y or z), this would make probe positioning much nicer. Edit: I would say a similar thing about the exploration version, whilst it's an overall awesome system, it would be nice to know which sig was which :/ Note: YER MAW! is Scottish for Your Mother.
128th ABC123 Eve Liberation Force Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.03.18 08:54:00 - [32] Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: Alfons Richthofen I agree, finding people in safe spots is almost impossible now. and it should be. if you can find a pilot in a frig with a probe in under 1 hour, well then you shouldn't be needing a probe AT ALL to find something as big as the exploration sites. soo seems fair to me. sucks that the easy kills are gone now doesn't it ;) What the **** are you talking about??? Do you even know what people here are talking about? Its not talking about killing noobs in frigates in safespots, its about being able to use a prober and get warp in points in fleetfights, situations where you do not have the luxury to spend 4 minutes probing. We even use probers in the middle of a fight to get a warp in on pesky falcon jamming people in the fight or getting those tacklers right in the middle of a sniper group etc.
128th ABC123 Eve Liberation Force Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.03.18 08:57:00 - [33] Originally by: Roemy Schneider Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 17/03/2009 12:39:42 told ya.... that said; try again with astrometrics V, aka deep space probes. i don't have it myself (yet) but i can imagine, life gets a tiny bit easier. but the fact remains that, apart from the massively nerfed probe range compared to say... fathoms, the interface is a royal PITA. i dont mean the probe+camera manipulation itself, which is bad enough already (0.5AU probes in a 30AU systems? more mouse movement than x-wing) but the combination with an important directional scanning these days (again, camera), lack of "background" right-click options in sys map, the stupid map toggling button stuff, and one of the major hinderances: probe range manipulation at those bubble "edges". i know it's "cool", looks good, can be sold well and gets mentioned as often as possible. but it cripples said camera control yet another level. tl;dr left mouse button has too many functions - sys map camera angle - sys map camera focus - dir scan camera - probe positioning (3 axis + 3 planes) - probe range manipluation oh and ofc my favourite topic: signature reducers and eccm making people invulnerable p.s. is the camera in sys map still the same as w/o map? maybe it's time to get rid of the "seamless" stuff and keep the map camera on your probes and the space camera on whereever you were looking. we are switching (F10'ing) back and forth for dir scans anyway. p.p.s. i've given it time and i still want the (very) old map back I agree the interface is a ROYAL PITA... They need to buff this back at least a bit to where it was. I maxed out on my covops alt and its almost useless now as I am not looking for complexes anymore (been there done that).
AnmmnA Princeps Corp Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.18 11:32:00 - [34] Originally by: 128th ABC123 Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: Alfons Richthofen I agree, finding people in safe spots is almost impossible now. and it should be. if you can find a pilot in a frig with a probe in under 1 hour, well then you shouldn't be needing a probe AT ALL to find something as big as the exploration sites. soo seems fair to me. sucks that the easy kills are gone now doesn't it ;) What the **** are you talking about??? Do you even know what people here are talking about? Its not talking about killing noobs in frigates in safespots, its about being able to use a prober and get warp in points in fleetfights, situations where you do not have the luxury to spend 4 minutes probing. We even use probers in the middle of a fight to get a warp in on pesky falcon jamming people in the fight or getting those tacklers right in the middle of a sniper group etc. Oh God, Thanks. Finally someone undestand what i talking about EACH SECOND its important when you try locate someone.
128th ABC123 Eve Liberation Force Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.03.18 12:28:00 - [35] Originally by: Cadde Edited by: Cadde on 18/03/2009 05:23:18 There is one thing i have to say about this is... Anyone in this thread willing to bet a billion isk that they are the BEST apocrypha prober existing and will ever exist? Until then you better improve your methods or scanning. With enough practice i think i will be able to find anything cruiser size or larger within 30 seconds as long as they don't carry ECCM, sig reducing mods or are cloaked. The only space i would have trouble finding the "right" guy would be heavily populated systems. Also, i am practicing with the new system constantly. I am able to pin down a group of drones in under 15 seconds in mission systems. That is i scan, get a 100% hit, warp and scan again. I have collected hundreds of abandoned drones with the new apocrypha system. The only thing that takes time is launching your probes and positioning them in a good fashion for the first few scans. I think it's a matter of practicing hard and finding the OPTIMAL way of narrowing down targets. Also keep in mind that if they are making new safespots all the time they eventually have to warp to a planet to "reset" the process. If they keep warping from SS to SS they are going to end up in the middle of the system eventually. If CCP change it now to make it easier it may be that the ones getting hits in 30 seconds now will get hits in < 10 seconds later. I can agree that there now is a little more personal skill and insight involved than previously (even though the former probing system for complete noobs was still a chanllenge to figure out, I think all us vets forget this now and then..) but for F*** SAKES give us an interface that is not that buggy, impractical and outright annoying.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.03.18 17:57:00 - [36] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/03/2009 17:58:50 Originally by: 128th ABC123 What the **** are you talking about??? Do you even know what people here are talking about? Its not talking about killing noobs in frigates in safespots, its about being able to use a prober and get warp in points in fleetfights, situations where you do not have the luxury to spend 4 minutes probing. We even use probers in the middle of a fight to get a warp in on pesky falcon jamming people in the fight or getting those tacklers right in the middle of a sniper group etc. Lol? You do realize that the new probing system is a major improvement for fleet combat, right? You realize all situations you are describing are faster now and less skill intensive than the old system? (Granted, 10 seconds vs. 30 seconds is not that big a difference, but still...) The only thing that is worse now is catching safespot hoppers, but thats of no consequence for fleet warfare, besides catching them was near impossbile with the old system as well. About the interface, imo it is working very well, once you got to know the 'tricks' to speed up your probe movement it works like a charm.
Tassill Minmatar Yakuza Corp	Posted - 2009.03.19 10:59:00 - [37] ^^ LOL yeah this new system works sooooo much better than the old system... oh wait that is until the hostile fleet commander warps his fleet to another planet or a different gate and you have to spend the next 3 mins repositioning all your probes. The only thing these new probes are good for is finding thins that arent lost, or in other words scanning for things that you know the position of or in the case of plex's etc arent going to move. All other situations which involve any kind of dynamics they are completley useless. CCP has created a system that is specificaly written for a static target and once again failed there player base.
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2009.03.19 15:32:00 - [38] A few corrections to some of the drivel in this thread: 1) The absolute minimum time now to get a warp in on someone where you already know right where they are, and hence, where to place your probes set to short range, is 19 seconds. It takes 5 seconds to launch 4 probes, at least 7 seconds to position them, and 7 seconds to scan in a cov ops. Not much faster than before. 2) Realistically to find someone whose position you do not already know requires a minimum of 90-120 seconds ( 3-4 scans and moving of probes ), assuming they do not move. If they move, and you have astrometrics 5, then you can leave 4 probes there, and launch 4 more to begin locating them again. This effectively allows you to monitor two spots they are warping between, and no more. Before you could end up dropping probes to cover a dozen spots. 3) There was a period of time, around 6 months or so at least, after they added exploration where probing for ships was actually USEFUL because even if they were in warp when the scan finished, you got the DESTINATION of the warp, not the useless spot in the middle. If they were in a slow ship, you could actually beat them to their destination and they would land in your lap, ripe for the plucking. This meant that warping from spot to spot was a pretty good defense against probing, but was not a get out of jail free card. You go into hostile space looking for ganks and a little warping around should not save you 100% from the fleet that comes after you. The single most annoying thing about the new system is that you can not identify the ships you are scanning until you are less than 2 au from them, yet your directional scanner on every ship can identify the ship up to 13 au out.
Gut Punch Shade. Penumbra Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.19 20:32:00 - [39] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/03/2009 17:58:50 Originally by: 128th ABC123 What the ** are you talking about??? Do you even know what people here are talking about? Its not talking about killing noobs in frigates in safespots, its about being able to use a prober and get warp in points in fleetfights, situations where you do not have the luxury to spend 4 minutes probing. We even use probers in the middle of a fight to get a warp in on pesky falcon jamming people in the fight or getting those tacklers right in the middle of a sniper group etc. Lol? You do realize that the new probing system is a major improvement for fleet combat, right? You realize all situations you are describing are faster now and less skill intensive than the old system? (Granted, 10 seconds vs. 30 seconds is not that big a difference, but still...) The only thing that is worse now is catching safespot hoppers, but thats of no consequence for fleet warfare, besides catching them was near impossbile with the old system as well. About the interface, imo it is working very well, once you got to know the 'tricks' to speed up your probe movement it works like a charm. The "tricks"? Using the directional scanner to get an approx range and vector isn't a trick its common sense to those of us who have played the game for a while. This new system is complete bull for people who are trying to hunt things other than mission runners. Someone already mentioned fleet fights. My FC doesn't have the time to wait for me to drop 6 probes and then ** around with the 3D positioning on a terrible 2D interface. Also, the inability to identify the type or class of a target until you get with 50% is dumb as a rock. It gets worse when you are scanning around things like POSes, stations, or gates where you have lots of people and you have NO ability to distinguish between people. This new system isn't about skill. Its more like a minigame thats supposed to waste your time. Well the fun part about probing is getting the killmail - not jacking around with the positioning of probes.
Feilamya Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.19 22:20:00 - [40] Originally by: Gut Punch This new system is complete bull for people who are trying to hunt things other than mission runners. Someone already mentioned fleet fights. My FC doesn't have the time to wait for me to drop 6 probes and then ** around with the 3D positioning on a terrible 2D interface. Moving probes with this interface (which IS terrible) can hardly take longer than warping around to drop probes within range plus the difference in scanning time with the old system and new system... Originally by:** Gut Punch It gets worse when you are scanning around things like POSes, stations, or gates where you have lots of people and you have NO ability to distinguish between people. This adds a new tactical dimension to probing. You can now "hide in the crowd" ~~Protip:~~ Common sense: Also use the directional scanner... With the old system it was nearly impossible to probe out anyone who wasn't stupid / afk / lazy / a noob. This has not changed. The only major change in terms of balance is that probing is no longer an AFK job, but a job for active players, and that makes people with probing alts butthurt. Get over it.

Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.03.19 22:36:00 - [41] Originally by: Gut Punch This new system isn't about skill. Its more like a minigame thats supposed to waste your time. Well the fun part about probing is getting the killmail - not jacking around with the positioning of probes. Some people actually like to do it, if you dont then leave it to those people. Getting the killmail has nothing to do with it, it is rather the question if I can find it in time or get noticed. Killmails are fine, but I can just sit at a gate and wait for them to come to me if I want them, no need for probing.
Gut Punch Shade. Penumbra Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.20 00:26:00 - [42] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 19/03/2009 22:37:29 Originally by: Gut Punch This new system isn't about skill. Its more like a minigame thats supposed to waste your time. Well the fun part about probing is getting the killmail - not jacking around with the positioning of probes. Some people actually like to do it, if you dont then leave it to those people. Getting the killmail has nothing to do with it as I'll most likely be on it with lol damage if at all, it is rather the question if I can find it in time or get noticed. Killmails are fine, but I can just sit at a gate and wait for them to come to me if I want them, no need for probing. Thanks anyway but I'm not going to leave it to people who like it. Combat probing was an unnecessary change. For me, all I care about is getting my buddies onto the target and watching him die. @ Other Poster: The directional scanner isn't helpful when you get those pretty red spheres or circles. What ship am I looking at? Well I can drop some probes around this gate but there is a station < 1AU away and some moons with lots of ships floating about - not to mention the gate trafic. Even though I know what ship the target is in, I can't sort it out of all the false positives. Thats pretty gay imo.
DeepBlue Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.20 07:31:00 - [43] Originally by: hacksideways Edited by: hacksideways on 17/03/2009 19:14:13 Originally by: AnmmnA Really .. If you think that in two minutes you have time enough to hunt someone, I wonder what kind of incompetent you were hunting before. And yes, before it was possible catch someone who jumping sate to safe every 30 seconds. Remember ... Once placed all the probes, you could know his exact position every 21 seconds. In whole system. The results were the exact coordinates at the end of the analysis. So ... sooner or later find the result in the instant that was coming to his safe. In this moment, you could throw the tacklers, and they have time to fall on the victim and to stop it. There were not dying they all those who were doing this, but yes an acceptable ratio. Well then, they were idiots, and should have warped more often, instead of every 30 seconds. Probing catches the idiots or the unaware. Always has and always will. Not to mention that I can now scan down more than one person at once (using eight probes), anywhere in the system, without ever having to de-cloak. Or even move, for that matter. No more guessing. you wouldnt imagine how many idiots are around then... ________________________________________________
AnmmnA Princeps Corp Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.20 09:18:00 - [44] Originally by: hacksideways Probing catches the idiots or the unaware. Always has and always will. As i said before, whit old sistem, you couldn't catch really smart and experiencied players. But now, you can't find smart players neither slightly stupid players. Probes just works to find completly idiots or whormholes. Originally by: hacksideways Not to mention that I can now scan down more than one person at once (using eight probes), anywhere in the system, without ever having to de-cloak. Or even move, for that matter. No more guessing. Must place 4 probes to locate exact position of someone. Whit maximum range of ... 2 ? ... 4 AUs, being a bit optimist ?. Well, then spend 4 probes to scan a little are of 2x2x2 AUs. Right ? If you use 8 probes, can sacn two areas of 2x2x2 AUs. Niiiice. Whit old systems, I could scan all the system just placing few Fathom probes arround. Or Spooks probes if target was bigger than BS.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:05:00 - [45] well with the delayed local in wspace, a reduced scanning time seems reasonable, u can still get em. Once 00 removed local wise it will be more balanced look forward ccp rather than back. Just put down more bubbles folks and accept u will loose the odd smart player
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.03.20 18:43:00 - [46] Originally by: Gut Punch Even though I know what ship the target is in, I can't sort it out of all the false positives. Thats pretty gay imo. Well, thats pretty much the only beef I got with the new system, but I guess we're gonna see a fix for that issue soon as everyone is complaining about that. Imo giving all objects in space a unique 'signature ID' that gets picked up by the probes would solve that issue. It should not give any info about the target, but make it possible to keep track of a single signature.
Bablu Hassan Minmatar ZiTek Deepspace Explorations	Posted - 2009.03.20 23:50:00 - [47] Anyone who thinks they can find a deep safespotted ship (like 10+ au) from any celestial body in a non-flat system in under 30 seconds is a big fat hairy unliked burrito munching liar. It takes 30 seconds alone to resize and realign your probes. Doesn't matter how many probes you launch and how you align and what grid you use or WHATEVER. Simple fact is to move, activate, deactivate, realign, shift drag, all that crap involved, will take you WELL OVER 30 seconds. enjoy your virtual e-p. If you want i'll sit in a deep ss for 30 seconds and offer you 1b isk to probe me down. Oh wait, you cant...
Cadde Gallente Gene Works Initiative Associates	Posted - 2009.03.21 05:00:00 - [48] Edited by: Cadde on 21/03/2009 05:01:29 Originally by: Tassill ^^ LOL yeah this new system works sooooo much better than the old system... oh wait that is until the hostile fleet commander warps his fleet to another planet or a different gate and you have to spend the next 3 mins repositioning all your probes. Bolded the part that matters. If you take 3 minutes to reposition your probes then you shouldn't do probing PERIOD. Originally by: Bablu Hassan Anyone who thinks they can find a deep safespotted ship (like 10+ au) from any celestial body in a non-flat system in under 30 seconds is a big fat hairy unliked burrito munching liar. It takes 30 seconds alone to resize and realign your probes. Doesn't matter how many probes you launch and how you align and what grid you use or WHATEVER. Simple fact is to move, activate, deactivate, realign, shift drag, all that crap involved, will take you WELL OVER 30 seconds. It takes me 6 seconds to position one group (four) probes tops... You clearly don't know all players. Originally by: Bablu Hassan enjoy your virtual e-p. If you want i'll sit in a deep ss for 30 seconds and offer you 1b isk to probe me down. Oh wait, you cant... I will take you up on that, not for the isk but just to prove you WRONG. Originally by: Bablu Hassan New probes rock the caspah when it comes to fleet battles on a grid or finding people at celestial bodies, but deep SS'es, it SUCKS The old system couldn't find people in 25+ AU safes... The new system can! Also, once you have launched the probes it takes TOPS 12 seconds per scan. Depending on the ship, like a battleship, that i can find with ONE scan using 8 AU deep space probes. Not hard at all. If he is warping around i can EASILY find him in 12 seconds again. ------ To all others, stop thinking you are the best of the best scanners. There are plenty "new age" probers out there that can work the new system as if their life depended on it. EDIT: That is even WITHOUT all the features that where supposed to be in apocrypha but had to be cut because time was running out! My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Bablu Hassan Minmatar ZiTek Deepspace Explorations	Posted - 2009.03.21 05:56:00 - [49] Edited by: Bablu Hassan on 21/03/2009 05:58:29 1) I guess you magically know where to position those four probes at exactly 0.25 au. since theyre miles between any celestial bodies. Share your magic pixie dust. 2) evemail me with some accesible time. I'm usually on late US timezone. I'll set up an escrow service and everything. If you so desire you can wager towards your e-p. 3) Warp between bodies hitting scan every second. You'll notice them on your scanner. Since your people and places window is already open since youre hunting, click add bm and click ok. Now warp to bookmark you made and make sure youre within 1.4m km (10 au) and drop a probe. Wala, 25+ au ss broken. No im not new to probing, and yes, youre wrong.
Cadde Gallente Gene Works Initiative Associates	Posted - 2009.03.21 11:17:00 - [50] Originally by: Bablu Hassan Edited by: Bablu Hassan on 21/03/2009 05:58:29 1) I guess you magically know where to position those four probes at exactly 0.25 au. since theyre miles between any celestial bodies. Share your magic pixie dust. 2) evemail me with some accesible time. I'm usually on late US timezone. I'll set up an escrow service and everything. If you so desire you can wager towards your e-p. 3) Warp between bodies hitting scan every second. You'll notice them on your scanner. Since your people and places window is already open since youre hunting, click add bm and click ok. Now warp to bookmark you made and make sure youre within 1.4m km (10 au) and drop a probe. Wala, 25+ au ss broken. No im not new to probing, and yes, youre wrong. 1) Unless you are flying a frigate or a ship with ECCM or have your cloak on i will find you in 30 seconds or less. I don't need to know where you are to do that if it's just you and me in system. If there are many ships in local i need to see you on the directional scanner first to tell me a rough area where i can find you since there will be hundreds of other ships floating about. That is what's flawed with combat and sig scanning right now. 2) I'm not after your isk, i just want you to understand that 30 seconds++ just to get the probes where you want them is way too long. I get my group of 4 probes where i want them in less than 6 seconds. (HOLD SHIFT, PLACE AT DESIRED ALTITUDE, PLACE AT DESIRED LOCATION, PROFIT!) 3) Why? Also, a true 25+ AU SS is not between any warpable objects. That is, in my world a true SS is something that before apocrypha couldn't be found in ANY way. --- You may be a veteran, i don't care if you spent 6 years with the old probing system. It's the new system you are complaining about and the complains revolve around TIME mostly. I have busted the old time constantly since apocrypha went on SISI. My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!

AnmmnA Princeps Corp Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.21 16:33:00 - [51] Originally by: Cadde 1) Unless you are flying a frigate or a ship with ECCM or have your cloak on i will find you in 30 seconds or less. Proof it. Frap it. Originally by: Cadde 3) Why? Also, a true 25+ AU SS is not between any warpable objects. That is, in my world a true SS is something that before apocrypha couldn't be found in ANY way. In real EVE world this kind of SS dosn't exist. Whit old system even I found some deep-deep-deep-SS at 550 AUs middle of Nowhere. Well, may be if you have a SS at more than 1024 AUs from any object ...
Bablu Hassan Minmatar ZiTek Deepspace Explorations	Posted - 2009.03.21 18:15:00 - [52] 1) Fraps can be false. You can find somebody then just enter system and probe it in 30 knowing where it already is. I want it to be a live test =D 2)Also, I understand the concept of shift clicking and dragging a group set up overlapped, and I know it takes seconds to move it to a planet or wherever you want but it is impossible to KNOW WHERE to drag it if someone is in a deep SS. Anybody can shift drag it to where they KNOW someone is, but with current probing system you need at minimum 2 minutes to find somebody in a deep safespot, and that's if youre very skilled at probing. 3) Yes i know the old "set destination" warp to and it drops you in the middle of NOWHERE trick, and yes I agree those are TRUE safespots. Im talking about the 95% of people who have created safespots in the last 3 or 4 years the only way possible, by warping between objects and any combination thereof.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2009.03.21 23:50:00 - [53] Edited by: Le Skunk on 21/03/2009 23:52:43 Agreed Whilst exploration probing has been much improved, combat probing is a rubbish. And for those who mentioned deep space exploration probes - latest rumor is they have been nerfed 75% strength - so now your back to moving probes about for three mins hoping your target is taking a leak. I would hope ccp would look at the combat probe system and rethink it. SKUNK (o)
BFish	Posted - 2009.04.21 09:51:00 - [54] Edited by: BFish on 21/04/2009 09:51:44 Just thought I'd raise this from the dead as I feel it still needs to be addressed Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/03/2009 17:58:50 Originally by: 128th ABC123 What the ** are you talking about??? Do you even know what people here are talking about? Its not talking about killing noobs in frigates in safespots, its about being able to use a prober and get warp in points in fleetfights, situations where you do not have the luxury to spend 4 minutes probing. We even use probers in the middle of a fight to get a warp in on pesky falcon jamming people in the fight or getting those tacklers right in the middle of a sniper group etc. Lol? You do realize that the new probing system is a major improvement for fleet combat, right? You realize all situations you are describing are faster now and less skill intensive than the old system? (Granted, 10 seconds vs. 30 seconds is not that big a difference, but still...) The only thing that is worse now is catching safespot hoppers, but thats of no consequence for fleet warfare, besides catching them was near impossbile with the old system as well. About the interface, imo it is working very well, once you got to know the 'tricks' to speed up your probe movement it works like a charm. You sir, are wrong. I am mostly concerned with probing out mission runners, being a pirate who basks in the death of the innocent. With the old system, if you had a good amount of bookmarks (which any good prober would have - minimum of 150-200 per system), you could find a ship on directional scan at 30 degrees, narrow the range down and then hit F10, HAVE YOUR CAMERA FACING THE SAME DIRECTION AS IT WAS BEFORE YOU HIT F10 (Just so CCP get that and fix it) and warp to a suitable bookmark, drop a suitable probe and scan them in 20-30 seconds depending on your skills. This process took... no longer than a minuite before the patch. This new system's problems have already been outlined. the UI is AWFUL*, just awful, and we should't have to put up with it - not broken no need to fix it. This new system is awesome for exploration, because there's no time limit... an anomoly isn't just going to warp off, dock and log any time soon. This makes the probing system GREAT... unfortunately it also makes Eve an even more massively singleplayer online roleplaying game. Be honest... it's just a conspiracy against pirates to help carebears isn't it? "Hmm... how can we make mission runners invulnerable...?" Apocrypha*
Psihius Caldari Atomic Scrapyard	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:14:00 - [55] Hell, looks like those people where never hiding from scanning. I was hiding on safespots before last expansion - it was quite easy then. You just warp to few planets/moons - make 5-6 spots, them jump between spots and make another 20-30 bookmarks on the fly and then constantly jump between them (warp to bookmark, when drop out of warp - hit warp to next random bookmark). Our gang of 20 people successfully avoided being caught by at least 4 falcons and 20-25 battleships for half an hour and escaped with no casualties. Same thing is now - you can't catch me while i'm warping 95% of the time. On the first site of safe spot being discovered bookmark is erased and I make a few more at new places. You never know at what distance I'll warp to safe stop and from witch direction. So to catch me you have to be damn lucky and most probably ride an interceptor. 99.9% that even if you will find one of my safe spots - I'll warp in too far from you to warp scramble me and i'll manage to warp off before you get in range or blow our ship if i'm confident I can do it fast, before your friends arrive.
Nexes Edelstahl	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:37:00 - [56] Edited by: Nexes Edelstahl on 21/04/2009 12:41:03 You are in W-Space! ofc it's easy to find, there's only a handfull in there at any given time. Not like K-space where ships may be in the 10's to 100's, docked in POS's or whatever. I think the new system is okay in theory but it needs fixing badly. Start with the graphics, so hard to see the widgets and i'm constantly either grabing the probe info text or the outer edge of the probe sphere. so much time wasted grabbing and regrabbing right there. Speaking of ergonomics can u move the scan range to the top of list in the window box. The whole "mac-ish" user interface sux tbh ...
ollobrains Caldari State Inc. People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.04.21 12:48:00 - [57] lets start by fixing probing instead of breaking it again Fix the spawning system to for sites
Darkcider	Posted - 2009.04.21 18:26:00 - [58] Edited by: Darkcider on 21/04/2009 18:26:49 Currently, I find the new probing system quite handy considering you can ignore specific ID's. This allows me to focus on Cosmic Signatures one by one. The main problem I do find : When combat scanning for people in a W/H for example, the problem is trying to tell who is who. My Corporation and I are currently held up inside a W/H and we find it so annoying when you get numerous ID's when you know that for example 6 out of 7 are yours. Perhaps there could be a feature to permenently ignore specific corporation ID's ? However that may be slightly unfair as it could make it too easy. Any thoughts?
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.04.21 19:29:00 - [59] Funny how some people here whine how new system sucks for fleet combat. It is MAJOR improvement in fleet combat. If you know where enemy will attack and more-less when you can easily trap ANY fleet/ship without problem. That includes catching ceptors which land on grid before they warp off. Needs some skill but its doable. What new system sucks at is entering system and then probing down people before they GTFO. It is possible to do so in more-less the same amount of time you did previously but you need to play some guessing. What new system sucks at is hiding probes. You could scan out battleship from 20au previously. Now you need 2au probes iirc (or maybe it was 4au) to get warp on BS.


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