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Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
73
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Posted - 2012.04.30 13:08:00 -
[31] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote: Shield Cane vs armor Harbinger. Cane wins. Shield Cane vs shield Harbinger. Cane wins. Armor Cane vs armor Harbinger. Cane wins. Armor Cane vs shield Harbinger. Cane wins.
I do believe an armor Harbinger sends a Shield Cane running (unless it gets caught, then bb cane) |
Sandrestal
University of Caille Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.04.30 13:13:00 -
[32] - Quote
Curious how my pulse zealot out damages most all of the welp canes and drakes in fleet engagements and I only have 5 pulses fitted. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
31
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Posted - 2012.04.30 16:48:00 -
[33] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:I do believe an armor Harbinger sends a Shield Cane running (unless it gets caught, then bb cane)
We had a test a while ago. Guy wanted to know good I'm and how good his Cane was against my Harbinger. The moment I got his shields down to 50% I started taking structure damage. |
Korg Tronix
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
50
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Posted - 2012.04.30 16:52:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Lunkwill Khashour wrote:I do believe an armor Harbinger sends a Shield Cane running (unless it gets caught, then bb cane) We had a test a while ago. Guy wanted to know good I'm and how good his Cane was against my Harbinger. The moment I got his shields down to 50% I started taking structure damage.
Then your Harbinger was very poorly fitted if we are talking Armour Harb versus Shield Cane Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams] http://themabinogion.blogspot.com/ |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
31
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Posted - 2012.04.30 17:01:00 -
[35] - Quote
Korg Tronix wrote:Then your Harbinger was very poorly fitted if we are talking Armour Harb versus Shield Cane
I don't know about his tank. I guess it was shield tanked. Insane regen rate. |
Korg Tronix
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
50
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Posted - 2012.04.30 17:07:00 -
[36] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Korg Tronix wrote:Then your Harbinger was very poorly fitted if we are talking Armour Harb versus Shield Cane I don't know about his tank. I guess it was shield tanked. Insane regen rate.
Ok no Shield cane gets insane regen unless its SPR brick tanked in which case its not a standard pvp fit. The standard shield cane has at best 2/3s the tank of an Armour harb and is still inside optimal of the Harbs lasers if it wants to do semi decent damage.
Pretty much every occasion I have been in this fight its either resulted in me running in the cane or making them run in a Harb (Cant ever seem to get the web on them.) Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams] http://themabinogion.blogspot.com/ |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
31
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Posted - 2012.04.30 17:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
I only had skills to use T1 lasers. Only used two crystals: Radio for long range and Multifrequency for short range. Fit was the same I used for PVE. And I wasn't allowed to use my Hammerhead IIs. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1590
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Posted - 2012.04.30 17:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:I only had skills to use T1 lasers. Only used two crystals: Radio for long range and Multifrequency for short range. Fit was the same I used for PVE. And I wasn't allowed to use my Hammerhead IIs.
This guy had maxed medium projectiles and damage&rof implants.
I don't know if there are enough facepalms in the world to respond to this post.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
414
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Posted - 2012.04.30 17:39:00 -
[39] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:I only had skills to use T1 lasers. Only used two crystals: Radio for long range and Multifrequency for short range. Fit was the same I used for PVE. And I wasn't allowed to use my Hammerhead IIs.
This guy had maxed medium projectiles and damage&rof implants.
Hey, I'm not normally hung on YOU MUST HAVE XX MILLION SP TO PVP but goddamn, you seriously need T2 lasers. And why weren't you allowed to use Hammerhead IIs? The generous dronebay of the Harb is a major way of redressing the double damage bonused Cane in terms of DPS. Would you also leave off one of your turrets? |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
31
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Posted - 2012.04.30 17:48:00 -
[40] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Hey, I'm not normally hung on YOU MUST HAVE XX MILLION SP TO PVP but goddamn, you seriously need T2 lasers. And why weren't you allowed to use Hammerhead IIs? The generous dronebay of the Harb is a major way of redressing the double damage bonused Cane in terms of DPS. Would you also leave off one of your turrets?
- 12 days it takes to train medium energy turrets from 4 to 5 was long time back then. So I kinda delayed training them. - Because fight wasn't for real, it was only for test purposes. I had actually invested some time to train drones unlike someone. You know Minmatar pilots... |
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1591
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Posted - 2012.04.30 17:52:00 -
[41] - Quote
Maybe you should have had him run with 4 T1 guns to simulate your lower turret SP Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
414
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Posted - 2012.04.30 18:30:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:- 12 days it takes to train medium energy turrets from 4 to 5 was long time back then. So I kinda delayed training them. - Because fight wasn't for real, it was only for test purposes. I had actually invested some time to train drones unlike someone. You know Minmatar pilots...
Perhaps it wasn't the best point of comparison for Harb vs. Cane balance. |
Moroccan Tourist
CRITICAL Novus
2
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Posted - 2012.04.30 23:23:00 -
[43] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Harb should have Focused Med Pulses on it, not heavy pulse. Harb is a great ship, so is cane, they work completely differently, move on.
Anyone who claims lasers are bad doesnt know how to fit/use amarr ships.
the tier 3 BC should be able to fit the top tier turrets , and why only amarr got only 2 classes of mediums close range class turrets?
Quote: [Hurricane, New Setup 1] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
10MN MicroWarpdrive I [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 50W Infectious Power System Malfunction [empty high slot]
And has enough PG left to fit all other non PG hungry mods needed
I just want to fit the same damn thing on a harbinger ! is that too much to ask? |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1594
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 23:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
Moroccan Tourist wrote:Quote: [Hurricane, New Setup 1] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
10MN MicroWarpdrive I [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 50W Infectious Power System Malfunction [empty high slot]
And has enough PG left to fit all other non PG hungry mods needed
I just want to fit the same damn thing on a harbinger ! is that too much to ask?
And next you'll be asking for it to have the same sig radius and nano just as well as the Hurricane too? I'm all in favor of a fitting buff to the Harbinger, but I don't delude myself into thinking it's necessary.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Haulie Berry
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 00:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
Wait, wait, wait.
If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that lasers and projectiles have different stats?
How can this be?!?! |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 05:00:00 -
[46] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that lasers and projectiles have different stats?
Yes. Because Winmatar should win always and mostly they do. Just check K/D ratios. Lasers have been nerfed so many times. Lasers used to be good. A long time ago. That's just not possible anymore. Drake could solo that Geddon nowadays. |
Darex Nidor
Interstellar Ministeries United Homeworlds
2
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Posted - 2012.05.01 06:52:00 -
[47] - Quote
Darthewok wrote:Moroccan Tourist wrote: The harbinger for example can't be fitted with a full rack of heavy pulse and a 1600 plate (PG +5%) , which is stupid . The cane can fit 6 x 425 and 1 plate and has like 355 pg left .
The cane can fit 6x425, 1600plate AND 2xNEUT, 2xHAM OR 2xHML (with a few ACRs/Reactor Control Units). The extra 2 slots is what makes the cane astonishingly good. 2xneut is lolol good with capless weapons and ensures supremacy over harbinger in fights (also great vs frigs). The Harbinger gets owned by neuts, and struggles with cap to use even ONE neut (the racial EWAR of Amarr!) Let's not even go into the superior speed of the Cane and ability to choose damage types. Canes can easily switch to therm or EM ammo vs the Harbinger (while neuting it!) while the Harby can only use EM/Therm, the worst resist types vs the Cane. Yes, Hurricane is like Drake, needs bit nerfhammer |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD.
45
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Posted - 2012.05.01 07:33:00 -
[48] - Quote
A drake can't solo a geddon unless the geddon is awful.
Hurricanes are nowhere near as good as people keep making them out to be, especially with t3 bcs everywhere. |
Sutha Moliko
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2012.05.01 07:58:00 -
[49] - Quote
Unbelievable... Again the "Winmatar"
If one cannot see the difference bewteen weapon systems (extreme optimal + low falloff vs low optimal + extreme falloff). His cause is over. The problem for a pilot using Scorch is : How can I stay at my optimal range ? Trying to compare Pulse vs AC without taking in account T2 ammo is pointess especially with Pulse. Scorch is the key. Same goes with Barrage and bonused fallof ships and/or enhanced by TE.
Since the blaster + null buff, if you think AC still rules at close range. Your cause is really over.
However, long range weapon systems is another story. Wait and see what CCP will do with ship balancing. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
417
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 20:34:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Yes. Because Winmatar should win always and mostly they do. Just check K/D ratios. Lasers have been nerfed so many times. Lasers used to be good. A long time ago. That's just not possible anymore. Drake could solo that Geddon nowadays.
I hope you realize there haven't been any significant changes to either Geddons or Drakes since that video was made. |
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Darthewok
Perkone Caldari State
63
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Posted - 2012.05.01 20:38:00 -
[51] - Quote
Sutha Moliko wrote:Unbelievable... Again the "Winmatar"
If one cannot see the difference bewteen weapon systems (extreme optimal + low falloff vs low optimal + extreme falloff). His cause is over. The problem for a pilot using Scorch is : How can I stay at my optimal range ? Trying to compare Pulse vs AC without taking in account T2 ammo is pointess especially with Pulse. Scorch is the key. Same goes with Barrage and bonused fallof ships and/or enhanced by TE.
Since the blaster + null buff, if you think AC still rules at close range. Your cause is really over.
However, long range weapon systems is another story. Wait and see what CCP will do with ship balancing.
The pure amount of damage and range of ACs is not out of line. What makes ACs so great on Minmatar ships is they can control the distance well because they are faster than other races. CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 |
Demolishar
United Aggression
245
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 22:13:00 -
[52] - Quote
I used to complain about Minmatar being OP then i trained Minmatar. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 22:18:00 -
[53] - Quote
Demolishar wrote:I used to complain about Minmatar being OP then i trained Minmatar.
Yeah, unfortunately it's the only way. |
Garviel Tarrant
Aces -N- Eights Excuses.
2
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Posted - 2012.05.02 02:26:00 -
[54] - Quote
I have yet to lose to a Cane in a Harbinger..
Maybe i'm special?
People really don't seem to quite realize the effects of falloff.. A typical nanocane does around 400 dps at the 20 km range
A good harbi does 6-700...
The problem is that if the harbinger is winning the cane can just.. you know.. **** off?
As for the Neuts, A harbinger can kill a Cane way before its neuted (Not saying it WILL, but it can)
Lazors might be slightly underwhelming.. But they aren't massively under-powered either. |
ValentinaDLM
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
486
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 03:26:00 -
[55] - Quote
Hell I like lasers so much, I frequently use them on my ferox.
There are 3 issues imo harbinger needs a bit more pg the pulse lasers themselves are fine Beam lasers should kinda be looked at, there are very few times when scortch doesn't obsolete them. Phantasm needs its missing slot. |
Tetonica
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 07:00:00 -
[56] - Quote
I think it's hilarious that everyone wants their cake and to eat it too. Here's something to consider:
No amarr BC can fit full tank, biggest guns and utility.
No caldari BC can fit biggest guns(or missiles), full tank and utility
No gallente BC can fit biggest guns, full tank and utility(lol brutix utility)
Only minmatar can fit largest guns and full tank + some utility, and last I checked you can't do 425's + dual neuts + armour tank
What I would prefer to see, instead of everyone crying buff this and buff that, since next thing you know there will be cries for utility highs on brutix and myrm and more grid for drake so it can fit hams and med neut and 5000 lse's, Is simply increase fitting costs for AC's somewhat. Not so much that you take away all of the utility but make it a choice between tank, guns and utility, instead of automatically all 3.
It's the path of least resistance, making it less open to ******* up everything else, and IMO the most sane, reasonable approach.
Also lol @ the guy spouting off about balance without even being able to fly both ships effectively. Seriously, just shut up about things you have no idea about |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 08:18:00 -
[57] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:People really don't seem to quite realize the effects of falloff.. A typical nanocane does around 400 dps at the 20 km range
A good harbi does 6-700...
Harbinger does 600-700 dps @ 6km. That's with ammo with tracking penalty. Tracking is bad with pulses at that range anyway. |
Jaketh Ivanes
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
4
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Posted - 2012.05.02 08:41:00 -
[58] - Quote
Tetonica wrote:I think it's hilarious that everyone wants their cake and to eat it too. Here's something to consider:
No amarr BC can fit full tank, biggest guns and utility.
No caldari BC can fit biggest guns(or missiles), full tank and utility
No gallente BC can fit biggest guns, full tank and utility(lol brutix utility)
Only minmatar can fit largest guns and full tank + some utility, and last I checked you can't do 425's + dual neuts + armour tank
What I would prefer to see, instead of everyone crying buff this and buff that, since next thing you know there will be cries for utility highs on brutix and myrm and more grid for drake so it can fit hams and med neut and 5000 lse's, Is simply increase fitting costs for AC's somewhat. Not so much that you take away all of the utility but make it a choice between tank, guns and utility, instead of automatically all 3.
It's the path of least resistance, making it less open to ******* up everything else, and IMO the most sane, reasonable approach.
Also lol @ the guy spouting off about balance without even being able to fly both ships effectively. Seriously, just shut up about things you have no idea about
I agree, as a first step. 2nd would be to look at Weapon vs Ship bonuses. Amarr ships should keep their Cap bonus so Lasers are only really viable on Amarr ships. Likewise should Projectile only really be viable on Minmatar ships and Hybrid only really viable on Gallente ships. RoF could be the "fixing" attribute for Minmatar and Tracking for hyrid. |
Moroccan Tourist
CRITICAL Novus
2
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Posted - 2012.05.02 11:18:00 -
[59] - Quote
Tetonica wrote:I think it's hilarious that everyone wants their cake and to eat it too. Here's something to consider:
No amarr BC can fit full tank, biggest guns and utility.
No caldari BC can fit biggest guns(or missiles), full tank and utility
No gallente BC can fit biggest guns, full tank and utility(lol brutix utility)
Only minmatar can fit largest guns and full tank + some utility, and last I checked you can't do 425's + dual neuts + armour tank
What I would prefer to see, instead of everyone crying buff this and buff that, since next thing you know there will be cries for utility highs on brutix and myrm and more grid for drake so it can fit hams and med neut and 5000 lse's, Is simply increase fitting costs for AC's somewhat. Not so much that you take away all of the utility but make it a choice between tank, guns and utility, instead of automatically all 3.
It's the path of least resistance, making it less open to ******* up everything else, and IMO the most sane, reasonable approach.
Also lol @ the guy spouting off about balance without even being able to fly both ships effectively. Seriously, just shut up about things you have no idea about
I didnt say we should be able to fit highest tank highest guns and utility slots , but you can't even fit this
Quote:[Harbinger, New Setup 1] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M [empty high slot]
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Even with a fitting rig it is still way off the mark +3% PG needed , is that even normal without any cap booster or a neut ? When an armour cane can fit a Neut + MWD + a full rack of tier 3 guns + 1600 plate without any fitting mods ! And why the amarr doesn't have 3 classes of pulses like everyone else? something that would fit between the 132 - 231 PG mark ! |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
74
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Posted - 2012.05.02 11:35:00 -
[60] - Quote
[quote=Jaketh Ivanes I agree, as a first step. 2nd would be to look at Weapon vs Ship bonuses. Amarr ships should keep their Cap bonus so Lasers are only really viable on Amarr ships. Likewise should Projectile only really be viable on Minmatar ships and Hybrid only really viable on Gallente ships. RoF could be the "fixing" attribute for Minmatar and Tracking for hyrid.[/quote]
Why should a weapon type only be viable on a single ship? If you're willing to lose a bonus, you should be able to surprise your opponent. Moreover, Minmatar don't need ROF and Gallente don't need tracking. Amarr however still have worst cap use even after the cap use bonus and even after big Amarr natural capacitors.
At this point however, projectiles are viable/competitive on any Amarr ship with one bonus to lasers. Lasers suffer from lack of downsizing options to increase tracking, fitting and cap use.
This is hidden because Scorch is the best ammo in the game. Lasers + Scorch is ok-ish, over all shipclasses I'ld say subpar but on the BS fleet-level strong.
IMO: Buff lasers, adjust Scorch accordingly.
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