The harbinger for example can't be fitted with a full rack of heavy pulse and a 1600 plate (PG +5%) , which is stupid .
The cane can fit 6 x 425 and 1 plate and has like 355 pg left .

Lasers come with good dps, range, instant ammo in exchange for fitting costs and cap usage.

This says absolutely nothing, compare it on a range graph and you see the effects of using falloff to reach your enemies.

TLDR: Small and Medium Lasers need a look at in terms of fitting, cap use, tracking, and damage.

[Harbinger]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
[empty high slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

This says absolutely nothing, compare it on a range graph and you see the effects of using falloff to reach your enemies.

Lasers do the least amount of dps per grid even when taking Amarr powergrind into account. Lasers do the least amount of dps for cap even when taking Amarr cap and cap use into account. (In both cases the comparisons were made with faction short range high dmg ammo)

The most extreme example is the person trying to decide the weapons for his Punisher:
(...)
In exchange for some cpu, you get a weapon that does more damage, selectable damage type, better range, better tracking, less grid use and no cap use.

If they nerf scorch, I'm going full Winmatard skills, and will never consider training another race again

Lasers do the least amount of dps per grid even when taking Amarr powergrind into account. Lasers do the least amount of dps for cap even when taking Amarr cap and cap use into account. (In both cases the comparisons were made with faction short range high dmg ammo)

The most extreme example is the person trying to decide the weapons for his Punisher:
AC200T2+rep flt emp:
dps: 27.2
optimal+falloff: 0.75+6
tracking: 0.394
grid/cpu: 3.6/6.75

GatlingT2+imp navy multfreq:
dps: 26
optimal+falloff: 3+0.625
tracking: 0.385
grid/cpu: 5.4/3

In exchange for some cpu, you get a weapon that does more damage, selectable damage type, better range, better tracking, less grid use and no cap use.

Aren't they doing the same damage @2km, with the lasers having .009 worst tracking? Don't the lasers stay even or slightly ahead if you change ammo the farther you go out? Do laser users change ammo ever?

Doesn't it have more to do with the ships themselves and how they are piloted? Don't the systems just fit the style in which the race's ships should be flown?

(real questions, I'm a newb and am making an amarr character after my trade alt has daytrading 4 and accounting 4 trained up)

to all the trolls saying cane is far superior to harb, then why is it, that you see far more harbingers than hurricanes... oh wait

As Nalha is suggesting :

2 Heat Sink vs 2 Gyro + 1 TE (all lvl 5, no drones)
7 Focused Medium Pulse + Scorch (optimal 20km) = 370 DPS
6 425mm AC + Barrage (at 20km) = 240 DPS
Their DPS are even at 13km
Edit (For the record a Brutix with 7 Heavy Neutron Blaster+ Null, 1 MagStab + 1 TE does 340 DPS at 13km)

A shield Harbi can already fit a full rack of Heavy Pulse Laser II and will do almost 430 DPS at 26km optimal (2 Heat Sink + 1 TE)
A Plated Harbi can fit 2 Stasis Webifier to slow down a leeroy Cane while switching to Multifrequency.
If your Cane can come to 3-5 km, things are differents.

TL;DR
The Harbinger is fine.

Uh-huh, stats say the Harb has comparable stats to a Cane, but real life will tell your otherwise. The shield Harbi will lose to a shield Cane (no cap booster, Cane will neut the living crap out of you), similarly a plated Cane will beat a plated Harbi, because it can have 425s, a medium neut, double web, more dps, so your double web Harby (lol no cap booster) will get a couple shots off before its cap is completely dry and the Cane is shitting all over it, even with a cap booster (small one, or you have to drop to FMP and lose any gun advantage you had), 425 Cane wins point blank (unless the Harb is running Med Drones in which case the Harb will get shat on by the first Rifter that comes along) due to more dps and only 2k EHP difference (offsetted by the fact that the Cane will be shooting @ the Harbs lowest resist).

So nice try, but no, the Harbinger may be 'fine' for Amarr standards, but next to the Winmatar Cane, it's just...bad.

Edit// I was wrong sorry, plated Cane still has enough grid for launchers so if you went with launchers instead of neuts, so no matter what the Harb fits, you'd out dps the Harb on raw stats and still have more utility lol.

Then why my Cane does more dps @ 28km with lower skills than my Harbinger @ 28km with dmg implant?

Wow look at all the stupid people claiming lasers suck...

-Liang

Not saying lasers suck but they take up too much powergrid on medium and small sized versions to the point where it gimps the ship.

Autocannons have no such issues.

So pretty much everything but autocannons have this issue. (!)

-Liang

Hybrids got a reduction in fitting in Crucible. I believe its time for the same for lasers.

Because the optimal is around 23km on your Harb and it has very little falloff.

Harb should have Focused Med Pulses on it, not heavy pulse.
Harb is a great ship, so is cane, they work completely differently, move on.

Anyone who claims lasers are bad doesnt know how to fit/use amarr ships.

Shield Cane vs armor Harbinger. Cane wins.
Shield Cane vs shield Harbinger. Cane wins.
Armor Cane vs armor Harbinger. Cane wins.
Armor Cane vs shield Harbinger. Cane wins.

I do believe an armor Harbinger sends a Shield Cane running (unless it gets caught, then bb cane)

We had a test a while ago. Guy wanted to know good I'm and how good his Cane was against my Harbinger. The moment I got his shields down to 50% I started taking structure damage.

Then your Harbinger was very poorly fitted if we are talking Armour Harb versus Shield Cane

I don't know about his tank. I guess it was shield tanked. Insane regen rate.

I only had skills to use T1 lasers. Only used two crystals: Radio for long range and Multifrequency for short range.
Fit was the same I used for PVE. And I wasn't allowed to use my Hammerhead IIs.

This guy had maxed medium projectiles and damage&rof implants.

I only had skills to use T1 lasers. Only used two crystals: Radio for long range and Multifrequency for short range.
Fit was the same I used for PVE. And I wasn't allowed to use my Hammerhead IIs.

This guy had maxed medium projectiles and damage&rof implants.

Hey, I'm not normally hung on YOU MUST HAVE XX MILLION SP TO PVP but goddamn, you seriously need T2 lasers. And why weren't you allowed to use Hammerhead IIs? The generous dronebay of the Harb is a major way of redressing the double damage bonused Cane in terms of DPS. Would you also leave off one of your turrets?

- 12 days it takes to train medium energy turrets from 4 to 5 was long time back then. So I kinda delayed training them.
- Because fight wasn't for real, it was only for test purposes. I had actually invested some time to train drones unlike someone. You know Minmatar pilots...

Harb should have Focused Med Pulses on it, not heavy pulse.
Harb is a great ship, so is cane, they work completely differently, move on.

Anyone who claims lasers are bad doesnt know how to fit/use amarr ships.

[Hurricane, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
50W Infectious Power System Malfunction
[empty high slot]

And has enough PG left to fit all other non PG hungry mods needed

I just want to fit the same damn thing on a harbinger ! is that too much to ask?

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that lasers and projectiles have different stats?

The cane can fit 6x425, 1600plate AND 2xNEUT, 2xHAM OR 2xHML (with a few ACRs/Reactor Control Units).
The extra 2 slots is what makes the cane astonishingly good.

2xneut is lolol good with capless weapons and ensures supremacy over harbinger in fights (also great vs frigs).
The Harbinger gets owned by neuts, and struggles with cap to use even ONE neut (the racial EWAR of Amarr!)
Let's not even go into the superior speed of the Cane and ability to choose damage types.
Canes can easily switch to therm or EM ammo vs the Harbinger (while neuting it!) while the Harby can only use EM/Therm, the worst resist types vs the Cane.

Yes. Because Winmatar should win always and mostly they do. Just check K/D ratios. Lasers have been nerfed so many times. Lasers used to be good. A long time ago. That's just not possible anymore. Drake could solo that Geddon nowadays.

Unbelievable... Again the "Winmatar"

If one cannot see the difference bewteen weapon systems (extreme optimal + low falloff vs low optimal + extreme falloff). His cause is over.
The problem for a pilot using Scorch is : How can I stay at my optimal range ?
Trying to compare Pulse vs AC without taking in account T2 ammo is pointess especially with Pulse. Scorch is the key. Same goes with Barrage and bonused fallof ships and/or enhanced by TE.

Since the blaster + null buff, if you think AC still rules at close range. Your cause is really over.

However, long range weapon systems is another story. Wait and see what CCP will do with ship balancing.

I used to complain about Minmatar being OP then i trained Minmatar.

People really don't seem to quite realize the effects of falloff.. A typical nanocane does around 400 dps at the 20 km range

A good harbi does 6-700...

I think it's hilarious that everyone wants their cake and to eat it too. Here's something to consider:

No amarr BC can fit full tank, biggest guns and utility.

No caldari BC can fit biggest guns(or missiles), full tank and utility

No gallente BC can fit biggest guns, full tank and utility(lol brutix utility)

Only minmatar can fit largest guns and full tank + some utility, and last I checked you can't do 425's + dual neuts + armour tank

What I would prefer to see, instead of everyone crying buff this and buff that, since next thing you know there will be cries for utility highs on brutix and myrm and more grid for drake so it can fit hams and med neut and 5000 lse's, Is simply increase fitting costs for AC's somewhat. Not so much that you take away all of the utility but make it a choice between tank, guns and utility, instead of automatically all 3.

It's the path of least resistance, making it less open to ******* up everything else, and IMO the most sane, reasonable approach.

Also lol @ the guy spouting off about balance without even being able to fly both ships effectively. Seriously, just shut up about things you have no idea about

I think it's hilarious that everyone wants their cake and to eat it too. Here's something to consider:

No amarr BC can fit full tank, biggest guns and utility.

No caldari BC can fit biggest guns(or missiles), full tank and utility

No gallente BC can fit biggest guns, full tank and utility(lol brutix utility)

Only minmatar can fit largest guns and full tank + some utility, and last I checked you can't do 425's + dual neuts + armour tank

What I would prefer to see, instead of everyone crying buff this and buff that, since next thing you know there will be cries for utility highs on brutix and myrm and more grid for drake so it can fit hams and med neut and 5000 lse's, Is simply increase fitting costs for AC's somewhat. Not so much that you take away all of the utility but make it a choice between tank, guns and utility, instead of automatically all 3.

It's the path of least resistance, making it less open to ******* up everything else, and IMO the most sane, reasonable approach.

Also lol @ the guy spouting off about balance without even being able to fly both ships effectively. Seriously, just shut up about things you have no idea about

[Harbinger, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Just a couple of minor suggestions from an Amarr pilot:

Increase laz0r dmg
Decrease laz0r cap usage
Increase laz0r range + optimal.
enable optional God-mode for Amarr pilots
Provide complimentary 12-pack of Amarr pilot's beer of choice

/Takes a bow

Even with a fitting rig it is still way off the mark +3% PG needed , is that even normal without any cap booster or a neut ? When an armour cane can fit a Neut + MWD + a full rack of tier 3 guns + 1600 plate without any fitting mods !
And why the amarr doesn't have 3 classes of pulses like everyone else? something that would fit between the 132 - 231 PG mark !

Harbinger does 600-700 dps @ 6km. That's with ammo with tracking penalty. Tracking is bad with pulses at that range anyway.

2. Medium pulse tracking is perfectly fine for your "vs. a Cane" scenario, even with Conflag loaded. If you are having tracking issues against a Cane at that range... I really don't know what to say.

No, at that range I would have other problems like no cap.

Fitting a cap booster on your ship w/ 4 mids is hard

Not enough grid with Heavy Pulses. With Focused Medium Pulses I have to lose 50% of my dps.

Not enough grid with Heavy Pulses. With Focused Medium Pulses I have to lose 50% of my dps.
And I do have AWU5 trained... thanks for not asking.

Did you bother reading my post? I SPECIFICALLY stated that minmatar might do with a bit of toning down fittings wise(less pg overall or more pg usage for guns)

Drake cannot fit mwd, hams, dual lse and medium neut
Ferox cannot fit neutrons, mwd, dual lse and neut(nevermind the injector to run it all)
Brutix cannot fit neutrons, mwd, and 1600
Myrm cannot either

So why should the harb be a special snowflake(with the cane) and be able to?

Here's a clue for you: There MUST be a choice between gun sizes, tank size and utility mods. This creates options and ability to adapt to new situations. The cane and other minmatar ships currently break this mold but in all honestly I think people on these forums blow this way out of proportion. In very small gang, yes, utility is handy to have, but once you get to a certain gang size(which isn't very big) it's not really a deciding factor.

I've never really had much of a problem with them, regardless of what I've been flying. I've gladly taken harbs up against a gang of canes(either shield or armour fit) and won a lot more than I've lost.

Now if you wanna go nano around null all day then by all means take your cane out. That's what they do. It's minmatar. It's what it SHOULD do. Stop trying to make other bc's into cane copies. With a few exceptions(tier 1), bc's are balanced well amongst each other.

BC's have all **** all over a large portion of the game and you people keep trying to insist on balancing them UPWARDS, which really boggles my mind. How about instead of trying to poop all over the game so you don't need to risk precious brain recources on ship fitting(which may mean some people here may forget to breathe), you figure out how to fit your ships to a certain situation? I personally tend to think that's a better idea than crying for a buff here, then two months later crying for a nerf cause suddenly it's OP

But I admit it's possible I'm stupid and just been very lucky in pvp for the last 4-5 years