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The 1 isk trade order problem... with a potential solution

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Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2009.03.16 16:44:00 - [31] I would argue that, while annoying, .01'ing has an important place in the market. It allows small traders to make better margins than large traders (at least per unit of time spent managing the orders) which is important if you don't want veterans to hold a perpetual monopoly. Furthermore, an automated system like that would just add overhead and complexity to the database, both of which are likely to result in lag and crashes. The system, though annoying, is fine as is. The young traders can earn a good margin/high turnove playing .01 games and the wealthy veterans use their large cash reserves and superior knowledge of the market to make good profits without it.
Dzil Caldari Apache Research Team	Posted - 2009.03.16 17:09:00 - [32] If we introduced automatically updated bids based on neighboring bids, couldn't the customer just place bids to force yours down before selling/buying? Which means, aren't you just passing the penny isk game on to the customer?
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.16 17:34:00 - [33] Better dead than red. You could introduce higher costs on bid modifications maybe, but beyond that I'd say leave the market alone...it operates very efficiently. EBANK - Chairman of the Board \| www.eve-bank.net
Resamo	Posted - 2009.03.16 22:00:00 - [34] Have not read all the responses so someone has probably posted this. Wont you just have people 1 isk out bidding each others low and high ends? it would really change nothing. It works on ebay because its single item... cant work when you are placeing an order that could be filled with any number of items comeing from any number of people.
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.16 22:16:00 - [35] Originally by: flakeys I however agree with the change to make updating orders time limited.Once every hour or so instead of what we have now.This is better for players like me who have less playtime and also for the big trade hubs where people are actually babysitting their orders and changing them way too frequently so the prices fluctuate more then they should.Especially for sale orders. The current time minimum between edits if 5 minutes. You say it happens way too frequently then they should be. which sounds subjective. My question to you is what objectionably defines how frequent they should be? *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.16 22:20:00 - [36] Originally by: Cors Actually, the "Easy" answer is setup some sort of automated system that rotates purchases. Example. If there are 5 people selling Ravens at 90Mil, and 2 at 92 Mil, instead of showing 7 seperate sell orders, only show 2. when purchase's go through, they cycle through the sellers in the list. EG: 90 Mil sell orders. Player1 has 3 ravens @ 90Mil Player2 has 9 Ravens @ 90Mil Player3 has 1 Ravens @ 90Mil Player4 has 14 Ravens @ 90Mil Player5 has 2 Ravens @ 90Mil Each purchase by players would work down that list, distributeing the sales amongst those with the same price. This would encourage sellers to all sell at the same price. As it is, folks undercut others by .01 is or whatever to speed up their sale, becuase atm if they're all at the same price, folks just pick the one at the top. We would still get the undercutting, but those selling volume continously would have it easier as they could all set at one price, and all would get sales. Its currently setup so that at equal price, the person with the smallest volume goes first. so your list would look like. 90 Mil sell orders. Player3 has 1 Ravens @ 90Mil Player5 has 2 Ravens @ 90Mil Player1 has 3 ravens @ 90Mil Player2 has 9 Ravens @ 90Mil Player4 has 14 Ravens @ 90Mil I can only speculate at this time as to the logic behind that idea. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.16 22:24:00 - [37] Originally by: Resamo Have not read all the responses so someone has probably posted this. Wont you just have people 1 isk out bidding each others low and high ends? it would really change nothing. It works on ebay because its single item... cant work when you are placeing an order that could be filled with any number of items comeing from any number of people. Actually it can work, simply adding a new field in the advanced buying and selling window. You set how far you are willing to trade up (in case of buy orders) and trade down to (in case of sell orders) *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.16 22:27:00 - [38] Edited by: Dasfry on 16/03/2009 22:29:03 Originally by: Dzil If we introduced automatically updated bids based on neighboring bids, couldn't the customer just place bids to force yours down before selling/buying? Which means, aren't you just passing the penny isk game on to the customer? This is why you set a limit to your max. Also said customer would have to own one of said item to do it. For example if your selling charons that customer would have to own one to list it. Which means their charon potentially gets bought at that cheaper prices and they lose out on the taxes for 2 items. this setup would also effect buy order, and if the customer attempted to manipulate the price lower then the highest buy order they're item they listed would be bought up by the buy orders which is how it works now. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.16 22:31:00 - [39] Originally by: Hexxx I'd say leave the market alone...it operates very efficiently. I bet there are many players that would argue that point with you. A whole other thread would be required to cover that. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2009.03.16 23:28:00 - [40] Only solution to one isk orders is get more orders in the game. Current orderbook is limiting where to trade, thus the void is what makes it worthwile to place 1 isk orders.. Increase and change the orderbook system to balance this better.. Simple solution make orderbook tab work on time range. Thus 30 days and 3 month orders should be "free" or cheaper on the order book and even on escrow.. This is all about price normalizing and removing the incentives to price in a grief like manner.. Some find this to be a natural thing, but really its all a product of the order book limitation.. It seriously need a bit of rethinking imho.. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Zalmun	Posted - 2009.03.17 01:36:00 - [41] Originally by: Dasfry Originally by: Hexxx I'd say leave the market alone...it operates very efficiently. I bet there are many players that would argue that point with you. A whole other thread would be required to cover that. Just because a bunch of players think something is wrong doesn't make them right. This game isn't what it is because it was designed by a committee of players. EVE is known for its sandbox play and laissez-faire market. Why should it change because some people are lazy or feel that it is unfair? Also, don't assume your opinion is the majority opinion.
Selina Candor Chernobyl Trading Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.17 01:45:00 - [42] Working as intended. If a player has more time to devote to manipulating the market, more power to them. Next thing after this, someone will ask for automated placement of a sell order.
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 05:26:00 - [43] Originally by: Zalmun Why should it change because some people are lazy or feel that it is unfair? I never said about it being unfair. I just want to give traders another tool *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 05:28:00 - [44] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania Current orderbook is limiting where to trade, thus the void is what makes it worthwile to place 1 isk orders.. What do you mean by order book? *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 05:30:00 - [45] Originally by: Selina Candor Working as intended. If a player has more time to devote to manipulating the market, more power to them. Yes, more power to them. I still see this as a add tool to existing and future traders that will help the market in the long run. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Amais Minmatar Medusas and Snails	Posted - 2009.03.17 12:06:00 - [46] Hello, I see here two eternal issues: a trader cannot leave a region if he wants to be the most efficient and a trader has to be in front of he's screen 24/7 to under/over cut other orders. The automatic bidding system is not viable, as soon as two people have their margins over each other, one of them will automatically arrive to he's maximum in a very short time. And, the system is not made for rapid changes in prices (did you ever had the "This order doesn't exist anymore..."). As a trader, I will feel myself more confortable with just one additional information next to my order. A new coloumn which will tell me when, statistically, my order will be processed. CCP has the average number of items sold for the last weeks, they know how many people are "in front of you" with the number of items and their prices "in front of you". An exemple ... of this estimated time of completion. A buy order looks like this: .........................Units...............Price............Station......Expiration time.......ETC Ferrogel_____19988/20000____42.185_____Jita 4.4_____89d 23h 58'_____1d 21h 2 days ? I think I wouldn't be happy with that :) So I'll go and change it to overcut my first opponent. And this will give: .........................Units...............Price............Station......Expiration time.......ETC Ferrogel_____19988/20000____42.250_____Jita 4.4_____89d 23h 58'_____Imminent Imminent is quiet ok, but I'll feel a little bit dumb if the market is dropping so I decide to put a price with a latence of 12 hours. .........................Units...............Price............Station......Expiration time.......ETC Ferrogel_____19988/20000____42.200_____Jita 4.4_____89d 23h 58'_______13h 13h is ok for me. I can go to sleep. I can go whatever spend my isk in pvp and never don't come back again to this f***ing orders page. I see you coming, "your ETC will change very fast and is very nasty to set up a correct formula to look into the future" You are perfectly right, but ... I don't really care of the accuracy :) I just want to be quiet in my Ishtar pwning n00bs in Branch ... Of course, the ETC can be seen independently of your current location...
Frenzei Gallente Fortuna inc.	Posted - 2009.03.17 13:01:00 - [47] I'd have to disagree on your idea, Dasfry. It'll lead back to an 0.1 isk game, though delayed but still irritating. And it'd not show the same info as today. Knowing that this is the lowest or highest bid currently, and not having to bid over or under it, then to have it change again. it will create more initial work in finding the limits, then increasing your own setting until you are satisfied, and then someone else will start over. it adds tediousness to 0.01 wars, actually. I'd rather have seen modification costs fire up quite a bit before any changes to 0.01 wars, tbh. and greet the 42nd for me, will you?
Dzil Caldari Apache Research Team	Posted - 2009.03.17 14:52:00 - [48] To clarify, I think of two types of people in the market: This is why you set a limit to your max. Which represents the price you are actually willing to pay for an item, or the least you're willing to sell it for. But you'll make your customer work to figure out what that price is under the proposed system, instead of it being up front in the order. Also said customer would have to own one of said item to do it. So, more work for the customer to use the market effectively? For example if your selling charons that customer would have to own one to list it. Okay, yea for charons that's not so likely. For Tritanium or anything you'd buy more than, say 25 of, read on. this setup would also effect buy order, and if the customer attempted to manipulate the price lower then the highest buy order they're item they listed would be bought up by the buy orders which is how it works now. Customer manipulation, as I see it, would look like them placing fake sell orders to force down your sell order. Placing buy orders is what they do today to try and get a better price. On a side note, you would create this interesting paradox: What happens when the hidden reserves of a buy order and sell order cross, but the actual listed values don't? Does the order sell? For how much? What happens when someone tries to buy straight off the lowest sell order, but the top buy order is then immediately bumped up higher than your "buy at market price"? Here's a counter example of how I see this system being a waste of the customer's time: A businessman acquires 100 BBQ Cannon IIs and lists them on the market @ 10mil, with this "autobid" feature set to lower the price to a min of 9mil if competing orders come in. Another trader decides to resupply his local trade hub with BBQ Cannon IIs. He sees the list price of 10 mil isk. However, he's wise to game mechanics, and knows he can get a better deal on the lot by manipulating the price. So: 1. He brings a couple BBQ Cannon IIs back with him. Or if he knows he'll make this trip regularly, he just keeps a few in Jita. 2. He then lists them singly on the market under the 10k mil price, observing it drop, modifying his order in 5 minute increments or just placing more orders. He closes on the min autobid price by bringing more BBQ Cannon IIs with more free order slots, or more time. 3. Now he pulls his orders off the market, buys BBQ Cannon IIs at or near 9 mil, and transports them back to whereever.[/*] Summary: The first trader didn't make/save any significant money. They buyer had to spend extra resources to get the same deal. So I argue you're just pawning the penny isk game onto the buyer, instead of the guy placing the orders. I think this is a fundamentally wrong direction to shift the burden of playing the market, when it is the order holders that make the money off the market.
Derivi alicon HSV Coalition United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 16:35:00 - [49] i shall throw my 4 cents on this! 0.04isk :) lol A. this belongs in ideas? b. the already stated database load issue c. another reason you don't need to be there to play the game to profit, which CCP is against, as they stated in a blog about their skill queue. this is a social environment. Hench i will say, dont like it eve mail the guy about it lol. d. uhm, just why? Q_Q more?
Delpsi	Posted - 2009.03.17 20:40:00 - [50] Even if the 0.01 ISK problem is a problem, this idea makes no sense. It certainly isn't a solution to said problem. It helps the buyer because prices will quickly drop, but does nothing for the seller. Most likely, the sellers just end up playing the 0.01 ISK with their limits.
Dranakolys Gallente Theurgy	Posted - 2009.03.17 20:52:00 - [51] Not this **** again... The market mechanics are fine, leave it alone. Find some new over-used topic.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.17 20:54:00 - [52] The "solution" to this "problem" is simple. You need just two things: a) eliminating the NEED to play the 0.01 ISK game b) making it COSTLY to play the 0.01 ISK game if you still want to do it for some reason So... how do you do that ? Well, for "A", you make it so that ALL orders at a certain price have a chance to get a sale. Simplest way to do this would be a kind of combined guaranteed/percentage chance to make a sale. Say you have three orders at the same price, one has 1 unit, one has 9 units, the last has 90 units for sale, so 100 in total. Each unit gets a 1% chance of a sale. If a customer wants to buy just one unit, he gets 1% chance to buy from the first one, 9% chance for the second, 90% chance for the last. If a customer wants to buy 20 units, the first order has a 20% chance to make a sale, the second one gets 180%, so that's one guaranteed sale plus a 80% chance of a second sale, with the last order getting 1800%, or 18 guaranteed sales. For "B", the necessary and sufficient think to do would be to reissue the broker's fee (even if at a reduced percentage) instead of the broker fee difference. In other words, if you have 0.3% broker's fees and you have a 500 mil total sales volume, INSTEAD of only charging 100 ISK to lower the price by 0.01 ISK, you charge 2.5 mil ISK (or a certain percentage of it, say at least 50% of it - so 1.25 mil). In other words, you might get a quicker sale, but it costs YOU more than the difference the customer pays (and the broker likes it more too, I mean, he's basically reissuing the order anyway). ____ Bottom line, you no longer absolutely need to play the 0.01 ISK game to sell some stuff, it becomes "whoever has more sells more" at a certain price. And if you undercut, it costs you, so most people will either undercut only to make a really quick sale, or just wait you out (at least for a while). _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
ingenting Cohors Alaria	Posted - 2009.03.18 00:56:00 - [53] Edited by: ingenting on 18/03/2009 00:56:53 Originally by: Admiral IceBlock ,01 favours the guy that can stay online the longest. I think that buy orders should be limited to one change per three hours or so instead of the current of five minutes is it? easy way around that: dont sell everything in 1 batch, and when someone 0.01 isks you, put up another order. Originally by: Unbowed Ash Originally by: Dasfry Originally by: Unbowed Ash And then 50 traders would put max ammount bid XY. System would bid to max. Then you would again have to login an put max ammount - and everyone else. Only thing this would accomplish is to destroy a price even faster. we see so many newb traders lately. Ever since MD got to top. They are destroying profit margins as it is - dont think they need any more help. From my reply to Manalapan's post. This will not destroy the market price. It would bring the sellers and buyers prices closer to a equalibrium Considering traders live off difference between buy and sell - we dont WANT equilibrium this n that _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu BAAOOM... Told you, newb."
Aviditas	Posted - 2009.03.18 02:25:00 - [54] For reference, I've day traded for a living..now then. You're griping about something that is not a problem, it is part of being a trader. If you dont like it, do something else. There are skills available in the Trading arena that allow you to check and modify orders from great distances. Griping about being one upped by .01 isk is just childish. Its part of the game, it reflects how real markets work. Get over it. You just want autopilot for trading and it doesnt work that way. I can very honestly say I once lost 10 grand on a trade in the time it took me to go pee and come back to my computers. About 60 seconds. Trading is not an afk business. :)
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.18 07:01:00 - [55] Originally by: Amais a trader cannot leave a region if he wants to be the most efficient and a trader has to be in front of he's screen 24/7 to under/over cut other orders. This is just another tool for a trader so he does not have to be there 24/7 or 23/7. However it is not the end all solution. Again it is just another tool. Originally by: Amais The automatic bidding system is not viable, I disagree and believe it is viable. Originally by: Amais as soon as two people have their margins over each other, one of them will automatically arrive to he's maximum in a very short time. Yes, this is how it is intended to work. Then the items sell from trader 1's stock, and price falls back to the next trader 2's price limit, in relation to trader 3's price limit. Originally by: Amais As a trader, I will feel myself more confortable with just one additional information next to my order. A new coloumn which will tell me when, statistically, my order will be processed. CCP has the average number of items sold for the last weeks, they know how many people are "in front of you" with the number of items and their prices "in front of you". Thats very interesting that you want it to attempt to predict how fast your items will sell. I believe there are some already existing API programs that attempt to predict just that. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.18 07:11:00 - [56] Originally by: Frenzei I'd have to disagree on your idea, Dasfry. You are welcome to do so, And I encourage you to explain why. Originally by: Frenzei It'll lead back to an 0.1 isk game, It will not eliminate all 1 isk games. Things that have a lot of traffic and traders will still be fighting for the small margins. However many other items will benefit from this tool. Originally by: Frenzei it will create more initial work in finding the limits, then increasing your own setting until you are satisfied, and then someone else will start over. Again its optional. Its an extra tool, that traders can choose to use. Auto bidding to their advantage or avoid it and use the old method of manual single values. Originally by: Frenzei it adds tediousness to 0.01 wars. I believe the reverse. As it would not be forced on anyone. Rather it would be an optional tool. You can choose to use it or not. Thus adding more options for the trader if he/she so wishes. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.18 07:17:00 - [57] Originally by: Dzil On a side note, you would create this interesting paradox: What happens when the hidden reserves of a buy order and sell order cross, but the actual listed values don't? Does the order sell? For how much? The hidden reserve price is just that hidden. So it would not matter if they cross... It would only matter if as you say the actual listed values do. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.03.18 07:19:00 - [58] Quote: Its currently setup so that at equal price, the person with the smallest volume goes first. Maybe, but there's one more step that goes before that. First it goes to the cheapest. Then it goes to the one with the least time remaining on their order. Then it goes to quantity (maybe) I know that because it's how I set my market bids for a bit, while everyone generally sets 90 day orders, I set mine at 30 days and was always top of the pile when I set my order to the same price as the cheapest. And believe me, people will never collude at a single price if it means sharing sales.
Vested Interest	Posted - 2009.03.18 07:19:00 - [59] Edited by: Vested Interest on 18/03/2009 07:19:25 Personally I'd rather see them implement naked short selling (covered by open long interest or items in your hanger) instead of auto-stepping orders. Does the guy that undercut you really have those units for sale or is he short against your long? Do you feel lucky? The market display would require a field showing long vs. short interest but it could work pretty slick.
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.18 07:37:00 - [60] Originally by: Delpsi Even if the 0.01 ISK problem is a problem, this idea makes no sense. I believe it does make sense. Originally by: Delpsi It certainly isn't a solution to said problem. It helps the buyer because prices will quickly drop, but does nothing for the seller. If you only look at sell orders then yes. But this infact would effect both sell orders AND buy orders. So the gap between buying prices and selling prices would come closer to their equilibriums. Meaning the market would be closer to Perfect Competition Moving the Demand curve for products toward an elastic model. Every product will respond differently in their own way. Traders will still be able to arbitrage between different markets & take advantages of gaps in local markets. Manufactures will still be able to sell their products. Mission runners will still be able to sell their loot. Consumers will still do just that consume. Originally by: Delpsi Most likely, the sellers just end up playing the 0.01 ISK with their limits. Again same question from Frenzei, same response from me. It will not eliminate all 1 isk games. Things that have a lot of traffic and traders will still be fighting for the small margins. However many other items will benefit from this tool. As it would not be forced on anyone. Rather it would be an optional tool. You can choose to use it or not. Thus adding more options for the trader if he/she so wishes. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics

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