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Johram	Posted - 2009.03.17 16:21:00 - [1] So I warp to a mission, because I'm not given any distance options I set a book mark, warp out then back in at 100km distance. Except of course that's not what happens. I warp to 0 even though I've chosen 100km. Naturally I start getting beat to death almost instantly and have to hope I can warp out before my shields fail and I have to spend more money than the mission was worth on repairs. What the hell. I'm sorry but I've got a cruiser with a lock range of over 60 kilometers and optimal range of just under 40km. Why exactly would I intentionally warp directly into harms way? Oh right, I learned all of my brilliant strategy and tactics from Don Quixote. Is there a way around this problem? Because if this warp to zero is mandatory then every fictional character in the game must be an idiot. No wonder the Amarrians got their ass kicked against the Jovians... They warped to zero.
Besmin Project Mirage	Posted - 2009.03.17 16:23:00 - [2] some missions (especially those with gates at the beginning) will always put you at the same starting point, no matter what bookmarks you have in various mission rooms. Those without gates usually have the option of choosing the warp distance in the right-click menu ;) Hope this helps
Johram	Posted - 2009.03.17 16:28:00 - [3] This one is a warehouse pickup/get ambushed mission. No gates. I can live with the gate problem, although I don't see why I can't choose how far to warp to the first gate itself, if not where a given gate will take me. Everything else I've seen about this game seems to be pretty sophisticated and logical. But I don't get the mandatory warp to zero dynamic. I. Can't help. My. SelfI. Must. warptozero. /shatner
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.03.17 16:32:00 - [4] Originally by: Johram Everything else I've seen about this game seems to be pretty sophisticated and logical. But I don't get the mandatory warp to zero dynamic. That mission is in a deadspace pocket, even though it doesn't have a gate. Warping to a deadspace pocket will always drop you at a specific point. Deapspace pockets allow the developers to balance mission by controlling how you enter them. It would be no good if you could simply bookmark the warehouse, warp in to zero, grab the goods and warp back out. Therefore, they control where you can warp to on that mission. You will need to adjust your tactics to handle the situation.
Johram	Posted - 2009.03.17 16:46:00 - [5] Edited by: Johram on 17/03/2009 16:49:16 Well then they all aught to have gates, warp to distance works on the gate itself, but then you depend on the gate to get you into deadspace(and out). If I can warp into deadspace without a gate, why can't I warp to a specific distance? Logic == Broken Call it a personal peeve but I really hate it when a developer can't stick to the story. And I don't like it when they choose to dumb down your options to achieve balance rather than make the encounter smarter. Granted that's more serious as a server performance problem than it would be a gameplay problem. Doesn't mean it isn't irksome. I posted in the ships and modules asking for a shield tank for a rupture. I can't really see a way to tank the cruiser to survive the onslaught. I literally have to start warping away about ten seconds after I warp in. If it requires something better than a cruiser to do a level II mission I can only assume it requires something better than a dreadnought for a level 5.
Ms Delerium	Posted - 2009.03.17 17:12:00 - [6] Stop complaining mate. The aim is obvious: not letting missions be even easier than they are... You want to bookmark the container and warp out/in and profit. Am I wrong? That's not "fair". You are supposed to fly through all these kilometers, facing the guristas and whatever...
Johram	Posted - 2009.03.17 17:34:00 - [7] Originally by: Ms Delerium You want to bookmark the container and warp out/in and profit. Am I wrong? Yes, that's entirely wrong. I can profit more by staying there and taking out the ships. What I'd like to do is warp in at the distance I choose. Fine. Deadspace. Nix on that. But as I stated I can warp into a deadspace pocket, and there fore there is no reason I shouldn't be able to do so at any distance I choose. Now if deadspace works the way it does, they should stick to the way it works and require the jump gates (which prevent you from controlling the destination) into and out of deadspace. They're not doing that, and that is what I am actually "complaining" about. Originally by: Ms Delerium That's not "fair". You are supposed to fly through all these kilometers, facing the guristas and whatever... Neither is it fair that my ships primary advantages are crippled by forcing a warp to zero. In open space no sane person would cripple themselves by warping directly beside the enemy when their ship is rigged for long rang. Since I didn't need a warp gate to get into the warehouse area, it is by definition not deadspace and my character is there fore an idiot for warping to zero. Warpgate in and out, and this inconsistency goes away without breaking the concept of deadspace OR destroying the existing balance.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.03.17 17:42:00 - [8] Originally by: Johram Now if deadspace works the way it does, they should stick to the way it works and require the jump gates (which prevent you from controlling the destination) into and out of deadspace. They're not doing that, and that is what I am actually "complaining" about. Not all missions that have gates are in dead space, and not all missions without gates are in open space. The existance of gates is not directly connected with a location being dead space. The connection is circumstantial. Dead space is characterized by the fact that when you attemp to warp to a location within the deap space pocket you will always end up at a fixed point, regardless of what location you had attempted to warp to. Side effects of this include the inablity to warp within the deap space pocket: ie you can't warp from the second pocket back to the first. Many dead space pockets will disable the use of MWD's. However, since the release of Faction Warfare and the dead spaces that it uses this has not be a strict requirement, but still remains the case for most missions.
Ms Delerium	Posted - 2009.03.17 17:45:00 - [9] I see, problem seems you got agro from every ship on the mission lol sometimes happens. And you are blown within 10 seconds no matter how big is your ship... You should wait and do it tomorrow after downtime, mission will be "restarted" and you won't get all the agro. This time try to move from the initial warp point. So, even if you get the agro from every enemy, they will be far enough to kill them.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.03.17 17:47:00 - [10] Originally by: Johram Neither is it fair that my ships primary advantages are crippled by forcing a warp to zero. In open space no sane person would cripple themselves by warping directly beside the enemy when their ship is rigged for long rang. Tell that to the people who try fitting MWD's on a mission running ship. Seriously, no ship is perfectly suited to all missions. Tracking Disruptors aren't fair to those who fit turrets. Defenders aren't fair to those who fit missiles. Some missions favor long range setups, others favor short range setups. You have many options, but rewriting the mission is not one of them. You do not need to accept that mission in the future now that you know that it is not optimal for your setup, or you could change your setup to favor the short range found in that engagement. You can adapt in many other ways, but complaining about it won't help you adapt.
Ms Delerium	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:01:00 - [11] seriously, happened to me. The 10seconds surviving time using an aparently nice ship. It's just the classic all-ships-attacking-at-same-time problem. (agro on them all) and no way to fix it since the warping point is too close from them. Common reason is, you are used to warp to mission and stay there without moving. Fail. After next downtime warp to mission the rats will be on random default locations (no aggro) then you should fly to whatever place, even with slower ships 150m/s you will do 18km from starting point within 2 minutes, enough for not screwing it up again lol
Johram	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:05:00 - [12] Going off of the description on the EVElopedia warping into a deadspace region is not possible and access to deadspace regions are controlled by acceleration gates. These regions are exploited for exactly that reason, to enact exactly the kind of whoop ass I'm being subjected to. (Thanks for the tip Ms D, will try again tomorrow) Except that, I didn't use an acceleration gate to get there, I warped in, which means its not deadspace. According to the official story anyway. Or at least as its described in the EVElopedia. Micro-warpdrives don't work inside deadspace because you can't warp inside deadspace. If you can't warp inside deadspace, you can not warp into deadspace, and if you can't not warp into deadspace you can't get into deadspace without an acceleration gate. As far as adapting goes, this is a seperate issue. I'm already trying to figure out how to equip the ships to allow for enough time to take out at least one ships. Then it just becomes attrition. Warp in, kill, warp out. (Again if its deadspace, I shouldn't be able to warp out.) Really, they need to come up with a new term for the space. I vote Undead space.
Johram	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:08:00 - [13] Incidentally if they stuck to their guns about the dead space story, getting in could just be half the battle. You not only have to get in but then you have to get out, which might or might not mean going through some late comers. Particularly with the larger dead space complexes.
digital0verdose Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:16:00 - [14] Johram, a couple things. 1. Try not to double post. Just edit your previous one and add in whatever you need. 2. You have a couple options to keep your ship in one piece and cuts down on costs of repairs. A. Get armor repairers and start learning how a tank works in this game. That will save you a lot of cash. B. Get an AB and as soon as you land in the Deadspace w/ enemies, do a 180, turn on the AB and fly away from everything that will be coming at you. Even in a cruiser, especially one that sounds like it is more centered around firepower than tanking, you should be able to fly away from most of what is coming at you. If neither of those is working then I would venture to guess that your skill training is probably out of whack in which case you have a completely different and more serious problem that needs to be corrected. We could keep talking about this all day but you're too busy reading my sig instead.
Thoram Minmatar Twin Sun Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:23:00 - [15] I have had the same trouble as you, it seems that when you warp to a deadspace pocket the first time you are dropped off att a specific point. however, sometimes if you warp out, and back in, you can select a distance to warp to, since the pocket have then been created. doesn't work all the time, and only in those mission pockets with no gates. those with gates always have a specific point for you. ----------------------------------------------- Recruiting manager. Contact me if you wish to join TSS or learn more about us. -----------------------------------------------
Johram	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:23:00 - [16] The AB is a good idea in theory, but I'd be dead before I got out of range right now. Might work from the get go so I'm going to have to try it later although it seems like the rate at which everything closed would exceed anything I can manage with an AB. Thought it certainly works well on my destroyer. I've focused on shielding admittedly, so its going to take a few days to refocus on armor for some entry level stuff. I was mistakenly under the impression that mods take damage as your armor takes damage. Which I assumed an armor repairer wouldn't fix.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:38:00 - [17] Originally by: Johram Going off of the description on the EVElopedia warping into a deadspace region is not possible and access to deadspace regions are controlled by acceleration gates. These regions are exploited for exactly that reason, to enact exactly the kind of whoop ass I'm being subjected to. (Thanks for the tip Ms D, will try again tomorrow) Except that, I didn't use an acceleration gate to get there, I warped in, which means its not deadspace. According to the official story anyway. Or at least as its described in the EVElopedia. Like the artical says: What makes Deadspace different from normal Space? You can not warp between points inside the Deadspace area. That includes warping to specific places/ranges within a dead space pocket from outside of the pocket. This includes the first pocket before activating an acceleration gate. If you warp into a location within dead space from outside of the dead space pocket you will arrive at a predetermined location. If you try to warp to a dead space location from within the dead space location you will get an error that you cannot warp to that location due to local phenomena. This set of resistriction defines a dead space pocket. Even the MWD restriction is not required by a dead space pocket (particularly exceptions being dead space pockets involving faction warfare), only the restrictions on warping to or within a volume of space define it as dead space. There is no requirement that all dead space pockets have acceleration gates, nor is there a requirement that all acceleration gates be located within dead space pockets. Often the two appear in connection with each other, but it is not required by any means. If you decide to take up exploration, be careful that you don't eject from a ship too close to a suspected site. I know of people who have ejected from their ship to scoute the site in their pod (as NPC's won't shoot pods) only to find that there ship is now inaccessable because the location became a dead space pocket as soon as their arrival spawned the site.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.03.17 18:45:00 - [18] Originally by: Thoram I have had the same trouble as you, it seems that when you warp to a deadspace pocket the first time you are dropped off att a specific point. however, sometimes if you warp out, and back in, you can select a distance to warp to, since the pocket have then been created. First time warping into a mission will always drop you at a specific location relative to mission. After that, if the mission is not located within dead space, you can warp back at any range you want. If the mission is in dead space you will always arrive at the defined location if you attempt to warp to any location within the dead space. Most missions that have acceleration gates are also in dead space pockets. The number of exceptions is small enough that most players probably don't know that there are exceptions. However, as I have stated before, it is not a real requirement. There are missions that have acceleration gates that are not in dead space, and there are missions that do not have acceleration gates that are in dead space. It depends on how CCP designed the mission.
Johram	Posted - 2009.03.17 19:09:00 - [19] Originally by: Ki Tarra Like the artical says: What makes Deadspace different from normal Space? You can not warp between points inside the Deadspace area. It also says, "There are certain areas scattered around space that are unsuitable for warping into due to natural phenomena." But then they go on to contradict themselves by saying instead of warping or jumping into dead space, they use acceleration gates. It doesn't make any sense. Particularly when you factor in the faction warfare exemptions. As though the universe stops to consider its opinion of you and what your doing before deciding what it will and won't allow to pass. You can't warp between two different dead space areas, but you can both warp into and warp out of a dead space area. This does not add up. To my mind, if its dead space it is flat out dead. No exemptions, no hall passes, no sneaking around behind the fence. Regardless, its just sort of academic. I doubt I'll be doing any exploration any time soon, but thanks for the tip. That would really suck.
digital0verdose Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.17 19:11:00 - [20] Originally by: Johram The AB is a good idea in theory, but I'd be dead before I got out of range right now. Might work from the get go so I'm going to have to try it later although it seems like the rate at which everything closed would exceed anything I can manage with an AB. Thought it certainly works well on my destroyer. I've focused on shielding admittedly, so its going to take a few days to refocus on armor for some entry level stuff. I was mistakenly under the impression that mods take damage as your armor takes damage. Which I assumed an armor repairer wouldn't fix. You will typically have frigates that begin to catch up to you and a few that are in range off the bat. You obviously need to take those down first. Another thing that needs to be mentioned here is that you need to be using guns that are good at hitting Frigates since that is what you primarily face in LVL 2. If you use hybrids, you should be using at most, 150mm small hybrids so they can track the frigate better which means your dps on thos targets will be increased over a medium hybrid. I'm a big Armor tank fan so I would advocate that, others may be more supportive of Shields. In either case you need to fly ships that are better suited to your chosen choice. We could keep talking about this all day but you're too busy reading my sig instead.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.03.17 19:32:00 - [21] Originally by: Johram It doesn't make any sense. It makes perfect sense once you realize that flavor text is written to explain game mechanics and not the other way around. Game design required that the developers be able to control access to certain locations. As such they created a mechanic (dead space) whereby any attempt to warp into the location will drop the player at a fixed location regardless of where within the dead space the player had attempted to warp to. Once a buble of space has been desigated as dead space (ie by spawning a mission or exploration site) then anyone who tried to get there ends up in the same spot. By making these pockets tens of thousands of kilometers in size, and combining it with the use of acceleration gates, they were able to create locations where it was impractical to reach except via acceleration gates and whatever rules they built to control the use of those gates. Now after that mechanic had been designed, they handed it over to their creative writers who produce the background story and ask them to come up with some nonsense to make it seem "realistic". What gets published is this background story so that those who enjoy the role playing part of the game can continue to feel immersed in the Eve Universe. If you ground yourself with the understanding that flavor text is written based on the game mechanics after the fact, and does nothing to dictate how the game mechanics function, it is alot easier to understand how the game works. If you want to understand how the game really works, then ignore the flavor text completely. If you want feel like the Eve Universe is something more than bits and bytes in a computer, then focus on the flavor text.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.03.18 00:53:00 - [22] Here is how I handle the "Cargo Delivery" mission when it's gone belly-up: get a friend with a speed-tanked frigate or even just a shuttle. You both warp in at the same time, hang in as long as you can, but head away from the warp-in point on full afterburner. Turn around and warp right back in once you safely warp out. Don't fly directly away from the NPCs, zig-zag out to maintain some transverse velocity (on each zig and zag, align with a celestial object so you can warp out instantly if you start taking damage). Eventually one of you will get enough range to not be hit at all, and you just keep flying away, or end up orbiting the warp in point at 60km. At this point you warp back in with your DPS ship and blow stuff up.
digital0verdose Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.18 02:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Mara Rinn Here is how I handle the "Cargo Delivery" mission when it's gone belly-up: get a friend with a speed-tanked frigate or even just a shuttle. You both warp in at the same time, hang in as long as you can, but head away from the warp-in point on full afterburner. Turn around and warp right back in once you safely warp out. Don't fly directly away from the NPCs, zig-zag out to maintain some transverse velocity (on each zig and zag, align with a celestial object so you can warp out instantly if you start taking damage). Eventually one of you will get enough range to not be hit at all, and you just keep flying away, or end up orbiting the warp in point at 60km. At this point you warp back in with your DPS ship and blow stuff up. I doubt the frigs he is fighting are using 200mm's. Zig zagging isnt going to do a whole lot to save him. We could keep talking about this all day but you're too busy reading my sig instead.
Bo'Tox Amarr Arkor Inc	Posted - 2009.03.18 05:08:00 - [24] NO, Johram is right. Some missions only give you the options "Warp to Location". Thats all there is. But if the mission offers you the chance to Warp to 100KM's then thats exactly what it should do...... Otherwsie remove the option to Warp to....... Is a simlpe request really. Johram, you probably want to post this in either the Ideas forum or the Misisons forum...
Ki Anna Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.03.18 06:04:00 - [25] Originally by: Bo'Tox Some missions only give you the options "Warp to Location". Thats all there is. But if the mission offers you the chance to Warp to 100KM's then thats exactly what it should do...... Otherwsie remove the option to Warp to....... They probably would add that as a feature if it didn't require so much processing server side. In order to provide that feature, everytime you open a menu that presents the option to warp to a bookmark, the client would need to wait for the server to run through all of the dead space pockets and calculate if your bookmark is inside the pocket. The lattency between the client and server would be annoying enough, to say nothing for the added load (and therefore lag) on the server in a busy mission hub with lots of dead space pockets. As it is, the server can provide the client with a list of bookmarks that you can warp to once per session change instead of recalculating and resending that information everytime you right click on open space.
Maria Kalista	Posted - 2009.03.18 10:10:00 - [26] Originally by: Mara Rinn Here is how I handle the "Cargo Delivery" mission when it's gone belly-up: get a friend with a speed-tanked frigate or even just a shuttle. You both warp in at the same time, hang in as long as you can, but head away from the warp-in point on full afterburner. Turn around and warp right back in once you safely warp out. Don't fly directly away from the NPCs, zig-zag out to maintain some transverse velocity (on each zig and zag, align with a celestial object so you can warp out instantly if you start taking damage). Eventually one of you will get enough range to not be hit at all, and you just keep flying away, or end up orbiting the warp in point at 60km. At this point you warp back in with your DPS ship and blow stuff up. I just used shuttles to blitz them. Warp in, plow to the warehouse, pickup item, warp out. The level 1,2-3 missions can be insanely hard for beginners. Especially with the second wave. Don't know about level 4's, i just use a frig at 8-900 KM/s get the item and warp out before my shield goes 'poof'. Also: 'If you use a shuttle you can get close to the warehouse and trigger mission completed. Your shuttle will get blown up but since the missions shows completed you can go buy some quafe at a station to turn in.' Originally by: tentonhammer One galaxy, limited resources, 450K players who are all a little odd to begin with and a porous system of currency trading. Welcome to the asylum, let's take a tour!

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