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[Issue] Ridiculously slow response time to balance issues

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Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.03.18 19:48:00 - [1] Very briefly... let's take a look at a few issues, some of which have been addressed, some of which have not - A. Amarr (need I say more?) B. Black Ops ships C. Countless weapon balance issues, both current and past D. Low sec interest E. Drone region mineral problems (ie. Trit shortage, etc) F. Nighthawk powergrid shortage The list goes on and on. Some of these issues literally took years to address (that is not an exaggeration). Some of these issues have been problematic for years and there is no foreseeable balancing in sight. Granted, I understand that balancing takes time. I truly do. However, some of these issues are taking long enough to be addressed that they probably exceed the amount time some people are willing to wait to see them resolved. I suspect people have left this game for greener pastures after having waited for one of these significant issues to be resolved... and never seeing it. That strikes me as a serious problem. Other games have addressed balance issues of this magnitude within months... while still providing new content. Why is it that some of these issues are put off indefinately? Why is this not only tolerated, but obviously seen by CCP as acceptable? This is a problem, and it needs to be fixed. Sooner than Soon (tm).
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.03.18 20:44:00 - [2] You and everyone else.... get back in line. And your arguments smell of rotten elderberries. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.03.18 20:45:00 - [3] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 18/03/2009 20:53:39 EDIT: arg.... double post. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.18 23:16:00 - [4] I partially agree - it has been a long long time. I do see things from CCP's perspective though, having been party to their development systems and team structure on the CSM though, and its now clear that even while we were presenting issues last year they were already gearing for the apocrypha schedule crunch. I guess what we really need now post apocrypha is some movement on the queued up issues. Speaking personally this is the major reason I'm not running for CSM again in term 3 - because I honestly want to see more of the issues I championed and presented entering the solid development cycle before asking people to re-elect me on the past record. Of the things you list I'm keenly awaiting black ops improvement, lowsec interest and several balance issues - as well as a number of important combat dynamics and movement on 0.0 sovereignty. I'm pretty hopeful they will get there in the end but I do agree with you it would be nice to see more of this stuff receiving significant development time in the near future. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
JadeMako Aliastra	Posted - 2009.03.19 14:31:00 - [5] New content has been delivered CCP, how about fixing the things that actually bug your current customers now? Fair play Jade Constantine for not standing again until some of your issues start getting addressed, but the job of the CSM I thought was to represent players and if no other candidates are championing the causes of balance you should stay on and make that your platform and goal.
Ankhesentapemkah Aliastra	Posted - 2009.03.19 14:36:00 - [6] This topic will be on the list of discussion next saturday, and I think I can touch on some points raised in this thread at the same time. If not, then just raise it as a seperate issue. ---
JadeMako Aliastra	Posted - 2009.03.19 14:55:00 - [7] Thanks Ankh, as much as I agree with unfinished content needing to be addressed as well my vote on this thread is more to do with the title than the specifics the op has mentioned, and while I agree each needs to be addressed I think there are many many more balance issues that are being ignored. In fairness to CCP I also concede that many parts of the game now are more balanced than ever, but why stop there? I would even be happy with just a statement from CCP detailing what they will address or consider in the near(tm) future - the silence is deafening - I mean, should I train a falcon alt now or what??
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.03.19 17:36:00 - [8] We also talked to CCP about their internal processes in regards to balancing things that were pre-nerfed like black-ops. I honestly don't know if they really took it seriously or not. But I think that they got the point.
Efrim Black Apellon	Posted - 2009.03.19 17:49:00 - [9] Originally by: Silence Duegood This is a problem, and it needs to be fixed. Sooner than Soon (tm). I agreed with everything but the Nighthawk 'problem'. I hate that ship, and personally I think it's powerful enough. Still supporting the 95% of your post that was on the money.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.03.20 16:18:00 - [10] Edited by: Silence Duegood on 20/03/2009 16:21:20 Originally by: Efrim Black I agreed with everything but the Nighthawk 'problem'. I hate that ship, and personally I think it's powerful enough. That thread of mine was not filled with opinions, I provided hard numbers and plenty of evidence to illustrate that the Nighthawk does have a powergrid problem. I understand that your personal opinion is that you hate the ship. However, the numbers are there. Fact trumps opinion. Originally by: Efrim Black Still supporting the 95% of your post that was on the money. Thanks! PS. /support. Forgot to do so in the op.
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.03.20 16:38:00 - [11] Part of the problem is that CCP doesn't have anyone who is good at understanding game balance - as evident from their mega nerfs and patches. Maybe TomB could do it tho, if they brought him back
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.03.20 16:43:00 - [12] Originally by: LaVista Vista We also talked to CCP about their internal processes in regards to balancing things that were pre-nerfed like black-ops. I honestly don't know if they really took it seriously or not. But I think that they got the point. I have been in EVE awhile and I wonder if CCP has some hard and fast rule that they simply do not mess with balance issues till some time (a year?) has passed. There have been many instances where players identified an obvious problem and are even all in agreement that the problem needs to be addressed (albeit they may disagree on what the actual fix should entail). Once upon a time it was Amarr and went on for well over a year. Black Ops are another everyone is in agreement needs some love. Despite all this CCP seems to simply refuse to move at anything other than a snail's pace on these things. Partly I can understand that. It would be bad for CCP to be in a reactionary mode jumping at every little tweak players cry about. There is value in letting things play out a bit and see how it all settles before making a change. I also understand that they have a LOT of things on their plate. New content is great and necessary to keep the game fresh and attract new players. All of that said though some of these issues seem to be on the back burner for far too long. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2009.03.20 17:20:00 - [13] CCP has long emphasized adding new features over improving old ones, which is fine as far as it goes, but they push it way too far. So far as I'm concerned, the two most important things CCP could do to improve the game are a user-moddable UI and a complete overhaul of POS/Sov mechanics, neither of which is a new feature. A bit further down the list are such things as assorted balance issues(most notably, lowsec), a complete remaking of the various game-support features(forums, mail, browser, etc.), a rejig of corporate/alliance role structures, cleaning up the default UI for things like science and corp management(as well as the game generally), bringing in a sensible bounty hunting system, rearranging mineral sources to make mining more useful vis-a-vis missioning, and of course, fixing teh lagz. None of those are new features. Yes, new features are good, and often add a lot to the game - wormholes, for example, were a genuinely great addition to Eve. Yes, it's far easier to market the game on the basis of "Shiny new stuff!" than it is on the basis of "Look, we don't suck any more!". I understand that there are good reasons for doing it the way that they have in the past. That said, it's bad for the game. Balance problems are created intentionally and then ignored for years - see bombs and black ops - and that just serves to sabotage the new content and CCP's reputation. A half-implemented feature is often worse than no feature, because it destroys the incentive to add it in properly, makes people dislike and distrust CCP, and doesn't actually add much of anything to the game. The whole approach here needs to change. ----- Bloodmoney Incorporated is recruiting!
Efrim Black Gallente Apellon	Posted - 2009.03.20 18:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Silence Duegood That thread of mine was not filled with opinions, I provided hard numbers and plenty of evidence to illustrate that the Nighthawk does have a powergrid problem. I understand that your personal opinion is that you hate the ship. However, the numbers are there. Fact trumps opinion. Well the "fact" is I watched Nighthawks wipe the floor with most ships during the Alliance Tournament, and they are becoming very popular because of their effectiveness in Wormhole space. My opinion is that all the issues you listed are major and should recieve attention right away. The percieved failings of one command ship aren't quite up to par with "Low-sec interests" in the grander scheme of things. Just my two cents. however, again, I think this issue of response times is worth seeing the light of day, and I'm glad to bump it again. ;p
CrestoftheStars Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2009.03.20 18:06:00 - [15] totally agree, it is just not right that it takes them years to actually correct very importent balance problems. just to say a few, missiles/amarr. how long time can it take? i mean it is a whole race and a whole weapon system which needed fixing, why did this take years before addressed (and really it still have some major imbalances, rockets, amarr (still)) so yer full support ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.03.20 18:41:00 - [16] Originally by: Efrim Black Well the "fact" is I watched Nighthawks wipe the floor with most ships during the Alliance Tournament, and they are becoming very popular because of their effectiveness in Wormhole space. My opinion is that all the issues you listed are major and should recieve attention right away. The percieved failings of one command ship aren't quite up to par with "Low-sec interests" in the grander scheme of things. Just my two cents. however, again, I think this issue of response times is worth seeing the light of day, and I'm glad to bump it again. ;p Just a side note: tournament pvp is not representative of actual game pvp. Tournament has specific rules and objectives that aren't enforced in actual game. For example, in one of the tournaments, stealth bomber gangs were completely dominating, yet in actual game they are terribly inefficient and hardly ever used. And I sure hope that CCP people are at least smart enough to understand that
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.03.20 19:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Ephemeron Just a side note: tournament pvp is not representative of actual game pvp. Tournament has specific rules and objectives that aren't enforced in actual game. For example, in one of the tournaments, stealth bomber gangs were completely dominating, yet in actual game they are terribly inefficient and hardly ever used. And I sure hope that CCP people are at least smart enough to understand that Bingo.
darkmancer	Posted - 2009.03.20 22:38:00 - [18] Agreed. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.21 08:11:00 - [19] look for aproved buff large ac/arty from first csm meeting. Is it done yet? Nope. 60D GTC - shattared link
Erik Finnegan Polytechnique Gallenteenne	Posted - 2009.03.21 12:39:00 - [20] I fully agree that apparently unfinished features in the game are annoying to the extent of being outright disappointing. Balance issues are undisputed as well; even though, they are likely to be discussed more controvercially, as there will be one opinion against a nerf or boost; uproar and discussion garanteed. Still, rework effort is piling up and, IMHO, JadeMako said well that the relative silence of CCP about addressing them is a risk to long-term fun (says a pilot who graduated five years ago...). Now, CSM representatives have shown more tolerance to the reasons of why issues are delayed at CCP - simply because they know more details. One may assume, hence, that CCP has valid economic reasons for their schedule. Such reasons might not be pleasant for the existing player base. Yet, a new major expansion surely is more pleasant to the market than a "bug fix" release. To conclude, the CSM should be used by CCP to publish more insight into the schedule, and - of course - listen to the CSM and prioritize some issues higher than they have been in the past. ----- Vote for Erik FINNEGAN and the TAKE CARE party L'obscuritT de la loi est un appel a l'intelligence du juge.
Ahro Thariori	Posted - 2009.03.21 17:56:00 - [21] I think psot #18 sums it up pretty nice. Also, not fixing bugs DOES have price tag. I have seen players leave over unresolved bugs, unfinished expansions and bad public relations, i.e. devs failing to respond / missing insight on the development cycle. These quittings weren't OMGEMORAGE but slow, sad goodbyes. Some are still following the dev blogs every once in while (so there is hope! ) and the general consensus in my peer group has been that CCP has gradually been changing for the better lately. There has been an amazing (that is, if your expactions have been shattered before) amount of bug fixes and things we were never expecting in the last expansion.
ceaon	Posted - 2009.03.21 23:23:00 - [22]
Jalif Black Sinisters	Posted - 2009.03.23 16:23:00 - [23] Edited by: Jalif on 23/03/2009 16:24:50 Agree with you sir, time for balance! I would like to propose 3 more thingsn that I would like to see in the list: - ECM/Caldari Recons/ECCM - t1 frigates/cruisers (such as breacher, purifier, navitas, scythe, augoror) could use some love - The ability to use passive shield tank very effective on ships that supposed to armor tank such as Harbinger, Brutix, Myrmidon, Ishtar, Curse (to an extend). \|Black Sinisters\|
Verys The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.23 19:51:00 - [24] Stealth bombers, black ops, bombs, posses, faction ships, the entire citadel missile system just a few to name of the endless list of being fixed soon (tm). There are lots of things that need fixing asap.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.03.23 20:06:00 - [25] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I have been in EVE awhile and I wonder if CCP has some hard and fast rule that they simply do not mess with balance issues till some time (a year?) has passed. No, I did certainly not get that impression. In fact that we discussed that CCP needs to define a period of time, after which they are FORCED to revisit new features, like black ops. The CSM was quite explicit that this was a good idea. It will have to be left to be seen if CCP takes up the idea. But I really hope so.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.03.24 11:38:00 - [26] Originally by: Silence Duegood Very briefly... let's take a look at a few issues, some of which have been addressed, some of which have not - Originally by: Silence Duegood A. Amarr (need I say more?) Yes. Please. Tell us more. ;-) Originally by: Silence Duegood B. Black Ops ships So they aren't very useful atm. Shrug. It's not like we have no other ships to choose from. Treat them like they don't exist yet. Will get useful one day when CCP gets some nice ideas for them worked out - or not. Doesn't really matter. EVE doesn't need those ships. There's plenty others to choose from. Originally by: Silence Duegood C. Countless weapon balance issues, both current and past 1. I very much doubt they are countless. What you probably meant is more than you cared to count. Which to me translates to probably 2-3. None of the very important. 2. You don't really want to whine about past (aka fixed) issues - do you? What would be the point of that? Originally by: Silence Duegood D. Low sec interest Low sec seems fine to me. I can only assume that you think it doesn't give you as much reward as you'd like compared to hi-sec? Shrug - non-problem. Originally by: Silence Duegood E. Drone region mineral problems (ie. Trit shortage, etc) In what way is a trit shortage an issue and not a trade opportunity? Originally by: Silence Duegood The list goes on and on. Some of these issues literally took years to address (that is not an exaggeration). Some of these issues have been problematic for years and there is no foreseeable balancing in sight. Here are some ideas that I could come up with at a moments thought: 1: Not everything you (plus a bunch of others or not) consider an issue is an issue. 2: Some things aren't easy to fix even if agreed that it is an issue 3: Some things simply aren't important enough to put limited resources into. Originally by: Silence Duegood Granted, I understand that balancing takes time. I truly do. However, some of these issues are taking long enough to be addressed that they probably exceed the amount time some people are willing to wait to see them resolved. You're probably right with this one. Originally by: Silence Duegood I suspect people have left this game for greener pastures after having waited for one of these significant issues to be resolved... and never seeing it. Largely true - I guess. Though many do come back. Really - if anybody left the game because a few ships have design issues or there is a shortage of trit in the drone regions - err - well - good riddance. Plus - I don't see how they will manage to find greener pastures - it'll probably be a never-ending tale of testing new game - oohh - exciting - damn found some issues - next game. It's not like other MMOs are flawless and most attempt to do much less than EVE. I can only speak for myself here - but there's still not a single MMO on market that - IMHO - comes close to what EVE does. YMMV of course. So even a flawed EVE - for me at least (well and close to 300k other people obviously) - is better than another (probably also flawed) MMO. Originally by: Silence Duegood That strikes me as a serious problem. Other games have addressed balance issues of this magnitude within months... while still providing new content. I don't follow other MMOs closely - but can you give a couple of examples? But be prepared to be laughed at if it is a MMO with much simpler feature sets (which of course covers most of them). It's much easier to fix a bike than a space shuttle. Originally by: Silence Duegood Why is it that some of these issues are put off indefinately? Why is this not only tolerated, but obviously seen by CCP as acceptable? See above. Rather obvious I think. Originally by: Silence Duegood This is a problem, and it needs to be fixed. Sooner than Soon (tm). What astounds me about messages like this is that this is so obviously not true. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.03.24 11:56:00 - [27] Originally by: JadeMako New content has been delivered CCP, how about fixing the things that actually bug your current customers now? But we already know what happens then - people will whine about lack of new features. See Quantum Rise (with accompanying stacklessIO etc... anti-lag measures). It's really simple if you take a step back and think about it. From CCPs point of view - a percentage of players will grumble, whine and/or leave - no matter what they do. So they have to constantly guess what mix of new features, re-balancing and bugfixes should get the attention of a limited pool of designers, devs and QA people. Some people get super-excited about Black-ops ships while I couldn't care less if they are useful or not (there's tons of ships to choose from - can't fly them all anyway). Others might welcome more npc-activity in market or consensual-only pvp combat while for me that would break the game. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.03.24 11:56:00 - [28] Originally by: JadeMako New content has been delivered CCP, how about fixing the things that actually bug your current customers now? But we already know what happens then - people will whine about lack of new features. See Quantum Rise (with accompanying stacklessIO etc... anti-lag measures). It's really simple if you take a step back and think about it. From CCPs point of view - a percentage of players will grumble, whine and/or leave - no matter what they do. So they have to constantly guess what mix of new features, re-balancing and bugfixes should get the attention of a limited pool of designers, devs and QA people. Some people get super-excited about Black-ops ships while I couldn't care less if they are useful or not (there's tons of ships to choose from - can't fly them all anyway). Others might welcome more npc-activity in market or consensual-only pvp combat while for me that would break the game. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.03.24 12:28:00 - [29] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto CCP has long emphasized adding new features over improving old ones Plenty of old issues have been fixed (a recent one was speed gone wild ;-) ) - it's just that those then are forgotten very quickly - and of course newer players don't know they every existed. But more importantly - it's not just CCP being in love with new features - it's clearly players demanding them. There's plenty of whine-threads about QR lacking in features - while CCP was busy reducing lag - which was the most requested feature ever. They (CCP) can't win this. New features - fix issues first. Fixing issues - where are the cool features??? Is EVE stagnating? Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto So far as I'm concerned, the two most important things CCP could do to improve the game are a user-moddable UI and a complete overhaul of POS/Sov mechanics, Thanks for providing 2 great example: 1) user moddable UI. I get that this is important to you and why not - we all have our personal preferences. To me it's a nice to have but I'm fine with current UI meanwhile. To me user-moddable UI doesn't make my TOP 10 list. 2) POS/SOV - almost universally agreed that this could use some serious changing - including CCP. They already said they want to and plan to change it. Do you really think they keep this on the backburner because - well - why really do you believe they haven't totally changed one of the most important mechanics of 0.0 existence? Perhaps - I'm just guessing here ;-) - perhaps because it's not an easy thing to change. And we don't need just any old change - we need an improvement. A big improvement actually to make the effort and disruptions worthwhile. Hm - sounds to me like a big deal with designers brainstorming over it for months, constantly debating consequences, devs doing tests environments, QA feeding back problems, etc... Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto neither of which is a new feature. Err, what? New SOV mechanics are a new feature. Or did you just want to finetune the number of days to gain next sov level? Don't think so. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto A bit further down the list are such things as assorted balance issues(most notably, lowsec) And again we have an example of something that's important to some and unimportant to others. IMHO low sec is OK as it is. There's danger when I transport something and there's a decent chance I can find some action when we fly a combat gang looking for pirates. Yes - I know it's pretty easy to make good money in high sec doing mining or missions. But - shrug - so what. Perhaps low sec is not a big money maker most of the time for most people. Easy solution - don't go there. Problem solved. To me low sec provides an occasional challenge on route to someplace else or a nearby place to find some limited action. If I want to make big bucks I can slave in empire or go directly to 0.0 (again with occasional low sec gate camps on the way). Why actually do you think it needs fixing? <list of a zillion features/issues small and big> You do realize that the amount of effective work you get out of devs/designers/QA is limited and that the list of such people at CCP is also limited (don't get me started on how productivity per person gets down when too many people are on a team - see Mythical Man Month). Given that there's just no way to fullfill your/our wishlist - even in the very few cases where we all agree on the need for a fix - in a short time. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE
Inmaculada Divinity	Posted - 2009.03.24 12:39:00 - [30] I think CCP have been concentrating on things "under the hood" such as stackless io, new blades and database optimisations. These frankly are the most important as they affect everyone in the entire game. In addition they bring out new content every 6-8 months, and are working on WIS (Walking In Stations). Maybe they need to continue on the "under the hood" stuff but slow down their new content deployment and spend more time concentrating on external issues that affect players. I'm sure people would happily have a slower content expansion in exchange for issues being resolved more quickly.

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