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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.24 16:39:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Stitcher Little known fact - there are stars out there IN THE REAL WORLD whose calculated ages are older than that of the universe.
Implying one of two things. Either we're wrong about how old the star is, or how old the universe is. Read into that what you will
It could also imply that c isn't a constant.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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DoJaan Farique
Gallente Karrasso Konglomerate
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Posted - 2009.03.24 16:50:00 -
[152]
The real problem we all seem to be having, is that the very basis of the argument is flawed at a fundamental level. TIME IS MALLEABLE. SPACE IS MALLEABLE. All calculations done to determine age are based on C. But if the two things that define C (Time and Distance) are both malleable, then C cannot be constant.
The real problem here is that we as mortal beings are unable to step outside the flow of spacetime to take accurate measurements. Its like trying to determine your true velocity with your eyes shut on a river. We are stuck with the concepts of "beginning" and "end", because all we have to work with is "time".
Does EVE go against some well accepted theories? Yes. Does it posit any new theory of its own that is absolutely implausible? No.
This is the basis of science. "I have an idea! Let's see if I'm wrong." Karrasso Konglomerate is now recruiting. Contact me for info. |
Ehranavaar
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Posted - 2009.03.24 17:13:00 -
[153]
what we think of as our universe is simply one quantum bubble in the infinitely large sea of quantum foam. if the wormholes connect to a different quantum bubble that explains both the age of the stars and the somewhat variant physics ie shield variations or speed variations seen inside wormholes.
advisory note entering other quantum bubble universes can be quit risky due to variance in physical laws.
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Psycho Nomad
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Posted - 2009.03.24 17:56:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Psycho Nomad on 24/03/2009 17:58:15 Interesting read, but as the threads gone on its moved further and further away from the original question.
so let me throw a little thing in the works. People are asking where this 'place' could be. That each wormhole system couldn't be at random unconnected parts here and there in our universe or another yada yada.
If you think back to a recent chronicle you will remember this:
Quote: ...For neither captain knew that the immense stock of isogen-5 which detonated before their eyes was entangled with numerous stockpiles in even greater quantities, assembled for a very specific purpose, and deliberately scattered throughout the New Eden cluster and beyond.
Nor could they know that the ancient race which had placed them there possessed not only a vision beyond the grasp of today's science, but also the technological advancement necessary to realize its potential...
This obviously points to a 'deliberate' act. Pointing to the highly likely prospect the 'other' space is in one cluster somewhere that is somehow connected to this space WITHOUT the ability for wormholes. We can deduce this from the passage due to the fact the isogen-5 stock piles were placed their by the same race behind the appearance of the wormholes, BEFORE they were there. Now how this was physically done, we do not know, but the fact it 'was' is pretty clear.
If this other space was in another dimension, these isogen-5 'triggers' could in no way have been placed in the manner they were, by the race that did it.
Further more, from this we can also presume the space the wormholes connect to is in a grouped cluster, primarily because of the consistency of the sleepers presence in all the WH systems, and the fact the Worm holes appearance is due to a deliberate act carried out by a group of entity's based on reasons unknown at this point, and not a natural acurance.
a Theory that came to mind to me is the wormholes may be some kind of super-advanced travel technology (not unlike the Jovians 'mysterious' ability to travel without jump gates/warp drive technology).
The reaction of Isogen-5 and 0-type stars causing a 'natural' equivalent of the synthesized mass boson sphere technology used in jump gates. That is part of a much deeper understanding and ability to manipulate the laws of nature in the game universe, this 'other' race may posses. They triggered as a very deliberate means of establishing easy access to the New eden cluster (and others, as noted), again, for reasons unknown. And maybe at some point, these currently unstable wormholes could be held open via some form of technology unknown to the inhabitants of new eden (but very well known to the initiators of the appearance of the wormholes) to create 'hyper-jump' gates, essentially bridging the Immense gap (whatever that may consist of) between the two clusters.
So hows that for a pickle in the eye? ----- I corpse tank... Ships r for noobs. |
Keisen
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Posted - 2009.03.24 17:57:00 -
[155]
After reading all the great theories and concepts people came up with, I have to laugh at the concept that CCP may be reading these posts to potentially come up with an answer themselves.
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Suboran
Gallente Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.03.24 18:12:00 -
[156]
this is so wrong, god created the universe only a couple of thousand years ago
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Jonny Lumi
Gallente Karjala Inc. The Polaris Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.03.24 19:00:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Brather Is it not easier to accept a little of the in game Sci-fi to explain this??
well there are the sleepers and apparently they are so advanced that we are not much of a threat to them so what if in their advancement they realized that they needed the sun to exist longer then its natural life, i say this because of structures that i have seen in their complexes and the descriptions of the technology behind it. with their advancement of technology its more then plausible that they were (are) able to deploy fuel into a sun to maintain and extend its life cicle.
eve today with what little we know we are almost at the point that if need mbe we can refuel the sun maybe not to its optimistic level of material but e can inject raw material into its core to maintain its fusion reaction.
Just a thought :P
I suddenly remembered what those 85+ Shivan juggernauts did to that sun.
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Kir'ian
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.03.24 19:06:00 -
[158]
Okay okay... very interesting discussion...
But... I'm still not sure what this has to do with bears!
/carebearstare |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2009.03.24 19:25:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 24/03/2009 19:25:10 for all you know, WH space is just 15 billion years into the future, hence the sleeper tech. See that class 1 wh system? well that used to be Jita 15 billions years before. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.03.24 19:27:00 -
[160]
IBTL.
How much time has passed between the present time and the time humans ventured through the Eve gate? How much time has passed since humans ventured through the Eve gate and the collapse of the gate? How much time has passed since humanity in Eve recovered and re-established itself to the current time in Eve? I would have a hard time believing 20+ billion years have passed though. I'll go with the multiverse theory.
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Entity
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
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Posted - 2009.03.24 19:32:00 -
[161]
On a sidenote, the New Eden galaxy and the Sleeper galaxy are relatively close to eachother:
omg it's a picture!
_
Got Item? | EVE API? |
Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
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Posted - 2009.03.24 19:33:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Entity On a sidenote, the New Eden galaxy and the Sleeper galaxy are relatively close to eachother:
omg it's a picture!
Right! Like thats credible. What other silliness can we expect from you ..I suppose you have a State Issued Raven too?
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Druadan
BLAM Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.24 19:50:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Confuzer I Well, accelerating a system would change it.
Read this:
http://ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/gravityspeed.html
I still don't get why the effect of gravity points to the lineair extrapolated position. But the effects are that spees has no meaning for gravity.
Cheers. Just started reading it. Very interesting. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Kuroshii
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.25 04:01:00 -
[164]
Sleepers = Ancient Sleepers = Much More Advanced Milky Way Humans = Ancient Milky Way Humans = Much More Advanced
You must admit the possibility exists. Humans only went to two places, the Milky Way and New Eden, unless the storyline we've had for so long isn't the complete truth.
FYI: According to Aura, 32,000 years pass between the closure of EVE Gate and present-day. Given a very rough estimation of how long it would take for us to get from modern-day to future-day Earth, I'd say 40-some thousand years total.
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Aargh
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Posted - 2009.03.25 06:38:00 -
[165]
It's an excession! Oh noes!11111
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Jack Gates
Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.25 06:44:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists a wizard did it
yep
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Wacktopia
Infinity Miners Union Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
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Posted - 2009.03.26 13:48:00 -
[167]
This star is 35billion "years old". A "year" is a unit of measurement we invented based upon the earth moving around the sun and is subject to our frame of reference.
It is quite possible to two bodies to appear of a different "age" only because they suffer time dilation as explained by special relativity.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.03.26 14:42:00 -
[168]
Originally by: DoJaan Farique The real problem we all seem to be having, is that the very basis of the argument is flawed at a fundamental level. TIME IS MALLEABLE. SPACE IS MALLEABLE. All calculations done to determine age are based on C. But if the two things that define C (Time and Distance) are both malleable, then C cannot be constant.
Actually "C" (light speed) is a constant. It is a constant precisely because time and space are malleable. No matter how you are moving you will always come up with the same number for the speed of light. So, say you are whizzing around in your spaceship at 95% light speed and measure the speed of light. I do the same back here on Earth. When you return and show me the results of your measurement it will agree exactly with my measurement. We will both report "C" as the same speed. The only way for this to work is for time and space to adjust to make your measurement look like mine (or vice versa as there are no preferred frames of reference).
So, C is a constant. Indeed by making it a constant is what leads to all the funkiness with time and space adjusting that many people find difficult to grasp but makes it fun to think about.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.03.26 14:46:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Wacktopia This star is 35billion "years old". A "year" is a unit of measurement we invented based upon the earth moving around the sun and is subject to our frame of reference.
It is quite possible to two bodies to appear of a different "age" only because they suffer time dilation as explained by special relativity.
You're overthinking it.
Yes a "year" is an arbitrary unit of time. ALL units are arbitrary. We just all agree on certain divisions so we are all on the same page when talking about these things.
So, when our ships run their scientific measurements to ascertain the age of a star they use our time scales so the answers are something we understand. You could have it report the time in terms of the number pans of cookies you could bake in that period if you want. Changes nothing, just would be confusing.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Huang Tang
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Posted - 2009.03.26 15:58:00 -
[170]
lol science
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Belatu Cadro
Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2009.03.26 16:54:00 -
[171]
hmm, Interesting
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Apollo Manton
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Posted - 2009.03.26 17:24:00 -
[172]
Originally by: WarlockX You forget that original story line is that at some point earth evolved space travel, expanded out to the known galaxy until there was nowhere left to expand then found a worm hole to eve. After some time this wormhole colapses technology is lost and then RE-invented. I would say there's a good chance 35 Billion years have passed. How long does it take to expanded throughout a galaxy, recreated technology from scratch and then re-expand through out a another small piece of a different galaxy.
I think you are all forgetting this... Take into account that it could be a fairly long time before we reach the point of expansion explanied in the lore. Another huge time period to re-establish humankind in the new space (maybe not billions of years) but part of this time could explain the star date issue.
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Somal Thunder
Intergalactic Peace Organization
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Posted - 2009.03.26 17:45:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Somal Thunder on 26/03/2009 17:46:05
Wow, 6 pages! tl;dr
Quick reply:
Seeing as EVE-Online already proved that we're in a SECOND universe (Or perhaps I should say second singularity?) It is not improbable that there are even more singularities to be found. Wormholes take us to the unknown - so we can venture into many different singularities [[universes]] without realizing where we're going. For this reason it is safe to assume that time and space will be altered by the instability in the wormhole. From this we can also assume that time fluctuates and maybe in the future CCP will integrate some sort of time-flux system which will in turn change the value of C within each and every unstable universe.
So, you're asking: "Why is that cool?" Well, because your control tower MIGHT need double the fuel for a week... or it might need a half - maybe it'll need so much that that particular system is not profitable for wormholes (but instead the belts will spawn all their high-end ore much faster, and the sleepers will respawn a bit faster, maybe your guns will even fire faster, the possibilities are endless!), likewise will some systems be VERY profitable and be able to run a week worth's fuel for months (but maybe the belts don't respawn as fast)... the possibilities are endless, and if CCP do NOT integrate more instability into the subspace within the "Wormhole singularities", I will be truly disappointed.
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Kuar Z'thain
Fraser's Finest
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Posted - 2009.03.26 17:55:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Somal Thunder
BIG COLORFUL WORDS
Holy crap dude, take some Ritalin.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.03.26 18:02:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Apollo Manton
Originally by: WarlockX You forget that original story line is that at some point earth evolved space travel, expanded out to the known galaxy until there was nowhere left to expand then found a worm hole to eve. After some time this wormhole colapses technology is lost and then RE-invented. I would say there's a good chance 35 Billion years have passed. How long does it take to expanded throughout a galaxy, recreated technology from scratch and then re-expand through out a another small piece of a different galaxy.
I think you are all forgetting this... Take into account that it could be a fairly long time before we reach the point of expansion explanied in the lore. Another huge time period to re-establish humankind in the new space (maybe not billions of years) but part of this time could explain the star date issue.
I think you are underestimating just how long 35 billion years is.
When people ponder the existence of extra-terrestrial life out there one *huge* hurdle to overcome is the Fermi Paradox. In a nut shell it is the notion that if there is intelligent life capable of interstellar space travel then they should be all over the place. Even a galaxy the size of the Milky Way could be colonized on the order of a few million years even supposing slower-than-light travel. It is a geometric progression. One planet colonizes two which colonize four which colonize eight, sixteen, thirty-two and so on. Even supposing 1,000 years on the new planet to build it to sufficient industrial and population capacity you'll see the galaxy colonized in a relatively (on a cosmic timescale) short amount of time.
They have even proposed that Von Neumann probes (self replicating probes) could explore the whole galaxy in as little as 500,000 years (again supposing much slower than light speed travel).
TL;DR version: We only need a few million years to colonize a whole galaxy. 35 billion years is waaaay overkill. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.03.26 18:08:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Somal Thunder For this reason it is safe to assume that time and space will be altered by the instability in the wormhole.
From this we can also assume that time fluctuates and maybe in the future CCP will integrate some sort of time-flux system which will in turn change the value of C within each and every unstable universe.
Erm...nope.
If this were the case then when the EVE gate opened and remained open explorers through it would have noted different physical properties of the new place versus the old. Since they didn't either they are in the same universe as us or a different universe with the same physical laws as ours.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Illectroculus Defined
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Posted - 2009.03.26 23:30:00 -
[177]
different physical laws just wouldn't work, the way this universe works is so incredibly sensitive to the laws of physics that even miniscule changes in some physical constants would render devices inoperable, or even make the matter they're made off no longer stable. Cross over into a universe with slightly different physics and you're as likely to explode as you are to get stronger shields.
The bonuses and penalties you get in wormhole systems are more related to the unusual stellar environments than any modifications in the laws of physics in other parts of the universe.
Well that's what I think anyway.
Anyway, a 1 solar mass star lasts 10billion years, and the lifetime of stars approximately varies as the inverse of the mass squared - and when you get down to 0.1 solar mass red dwarfs the lifetime is measured in trillions of years.
Still wouldn't make them older than the observed universe.
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Undeniable Existence
Questionable Practices
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Posted - 2009.03.27 00:23:00 -
[178]
are wh systems supposed to be older or newer than known space?
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Rogue Lilly
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.03.27 04:42:00 -
[179]
perhaps these wormholes are based on one of the current wormhole theories in RL that they are actually rips in the membrane that happens sometimes when membranes collide. Which would support WH-space being other universes.
and to the poster earlier who asked if the universe implies everything? No, first of all there are 11 dimensions and most likely infinite universes that exist in these dimensions. Although that really depends on if you are talking about level 1,2, or 3 universes.
I really need to stop watching the science channel for quasi-scientific babble that i only pretend to understand...
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Darathor Omegie
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Posted - 2009.03.27 07:40:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Primnproper
Originally by: WarlockX You forget that original story line is that at some point earth evolved space travel, expanded out to the known galaxy until there was nowhere left to expand then found a worm hole to eve. After some time this wormhole colapses technology is lost and then RE-invented. I would say there's a good chance 35 Billion years have passed. How long does it take to expanded throughout a galaxy, recreated technology from scratch and then re-expand through out a another small piece of a different galaxy.
I thought it was only 10 thousand years or so according to the backstory not a 35 billion years.
I mean a billion years is approx. 1/14 of the age of the universe, 1/5 the age of the solar system or almost twice as long as complex multicelluar life has existed on Earth.
Modern Humans have only existed for at most 500,000 years or 1/2 a million years, so 35 billion years would be 70,000 times as long as humans have existed so far.
By the time we reach that point I think we probably won't even be recoginisable as human or even jove, a human from a billion years from now could be 70,000 times as far beyond us as we are beyond a single celled bacteria (ignoring the rate of change of the rate of evolution).
evolution doesn't really work that way. If human's enviroment changes then we could evolve to better suite that enviroment(see living fossil's).
Best course of action is to doubt the current age of the universe(as we can only see a very very small part of the universe and we are using that small part to judge it's age.. and the calculations could be wrong).
Also.. different galaxy.... maybe star's are made of stuff other than hydrogen and helium that burn slower?
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