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Average tank/DPS of a dread?

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Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.20 04:19:00 - [1] I've been toying with fittings in eft, some tanky some ganky, and it occurred to me, I have no idea what would be considered "normal" dps/tanking values for dreads would be. I'm specifically looking at the moros, but I wouldn't mind seeing what other dreads can do with whatever people fit them with.
Tolsimir Wolfblood Esto Perpetua	Posted - 2009.03.20 04:58:00 - [2] [Moros, Tank] Capital Armor Repairer I Capital Armor Repairer I True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Siege Module I Dual 1000mm Railgun I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL Dual 1000mm Railgun I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL Dual 1000mm Railgun I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Garde II x5 Blasters use less fitting so no problem swaping. SMC vs CCC is interesting and while I would generally lean towards SMC, cynoing takes a cap % so SMC's mean you still have ****ty cap after cynoing. All lvl 5 stats: 4400 dps, 5465 dps sustained tank, 10955/14177 dps reinforced/overheated tank (last nearly 4 mins).
Tolsimir Wolfblood Esto Perpetua	Posted - 2009.03.20 05:00:00 - [3] BUFFER [Moros, Buffer] Capital Armor Repairer I True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II Energized Regenerative Membrane II Energized Regenerative Membrane II Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Siege Module I Dual 1000mm Railgun I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL Dual 1000mm Railgun I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL Dual 1000mm Railgun I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Garde II x5 2.5-7 million effective hitpoints depending on gang. 3800 dps, 5400 reinforced tank (lasts 7+mins). Once again blasters fit easily. Once again I am not an expert but if I got primaried in a dread fight I would like to know that I could at least stretch my chances of staying alive and dealing more damage.
Mo adib Titan Industries Technology Team	Posted - 2009.03.20 05:16:00 - [4] Edited by: Mo adib on 20/03/2009 05:17:17 if you dont know what you are talking about you probably shouldnt offer advice to this guy as you are just sending him down the wrong path. no one intelligent fits blasters on a moros as the range is to small for almost all pos work, and supercaps and other non sieged capitals can get out of range of you. Also no one intelligent or experienced with dreads would show up without a sensor booster on their ship. without faction my moros and my rev were both hitting around 4000 dps. as far as tank goes it depends what type of engagements you are going to be in. if pos fighting without expecting any real resistance a dual rep setup is fine. same with cap fights under 10 on 10 or around that. when you start getting into 20 on 20 or higher cap fights you need to start looking at doing more dmg and relying more on a buffer tank then dual reppers. so drop the second repper for another dmg mod and consider swapping the standard 3CCC rig setup for 2 trimarks and 1 ccc. also consider that faction dmg mods are cheap and make a nice difference on a ship like this. Also if you are serious about flying dreads, get dread 5 and gun 5, and tech 2 sentries. you should also see if the group you are using this ship with has any kind of standardized fitouts as most groups do because they intend to use the dreads in a certain way. as far as other dreads, rev is on par or better then a moros in most situations (sometimes a moros is better) phoenix is usually under the two for a variety of reasons and not all reasons are present in every engagement, and a naglfar..... dont train one until they change it.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.03.20 05:28:00 - [5] Originally by: Mo adib Also no one intelligent or experienced with dreads would show up without a sensor booster on their ship. Would there be any utility in having a logistics monkey doing remote sensor boosting? Quote: and a naglfar..... dont train one until they change it. But... it's vertical =) Doesn't that count for anything? Hey, I'm just trying to look on the bright side!
Mo adib Titan Industries Technology Team	Posted - 2009.03.20 05:32:00 - [6] Edited by: Mo adib on 20/03/2009 05:32:54 cant remote anythng a dread while its in siege, so no that is not an acceptable alternative aside from the fact I consider it foolish to use an entire other person or character to replace one module on a ship. and no the nag being vertical only counts for spinning in station, dont get me wrong its probably the coolest but ccp needs to -2 launcher points, +1 gun point -1 high slot and +1 low slot or medium slot and switch the launcher bonus to something useful. Then it would be a perfectly fine dread on par with a moros and a rev and it wouldnt even be overpowered or require any more training then a nag takes now.
Tolsimir Wolfblood Esto Perpetua	Posted - 2009.03.20 07:17:00 - [7] Edited by: Tolsimir Wolfblood on 20/03/2009 07:18:56 Yes you are correct about the sensor booster but cant a unsieged dread also move to you and get to close for rails to hit? Depending on the situation why not fit blasters over rails? I think the OP would have figured out on his own that you cant use blasters wile sieging a POS.
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Tolsimir Wolfblood Edited by: Tolsimir Wolfblood on 20/03/2009 07:18:56 Yes you are correct about the sensor booster but cant a unsieged dread also move to you and get to close for rails to hit? Depending on the situation why not fit blasters over rails? I think the OP would have figured out on his own that you cant use blasters wile sieging a POS. What? Too close to hit? Do you realize there is NO tracking when target and firing station are BOTH stationary? And a dread out of siege is not even a nuisance.Short range gusn only worth if YOU aer hotdroppign someone and you control witch range it will happen. And even so... only the revelation has a realistic option to do so.
Tolsimir Wolfblood Esto Perpetua	Posted - 2009.03.20 11:29:00 - [9] Thank you for a constructive post
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2009.03.20 14:07:00 - [10] Regarding SMCs vs CCCs on capital ships, always always always go for CCCs. You've got an insane amount of base cap to begin with and even though your peak cap/s does go up with SMCs, it takes exactly the same amount of time for your cap to recharge. This means that you can't use your jump drive (which requires a fixed % of your total cap) any faster and this is generally a bad thing. CCCs, on the other hand, reduce your total cap recharge time letting you jump faster. Seriously, don't waste SMCs on capitals; either go the appropriate tank buffer rigs (buffer/gank fit dreads) or CCCs (everything else). -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne

Death Artist The Harbingers of Death	Posted - 2009.03.20 16:49:00 - [11] Edited by: Death Artist on 20/03/2009 16:49:00 .
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.20 16:50:00 - [12] While there were several useful posts in this thread, they're mostly things I already knew. Currently eft says with my skills (mostly lvl 4 with a few lvl 5s here and there) that I get: With a full tank setup (no damage mods 2 reps siege mode) just over 9000 sustained tank without overheating (and tbh with setups that aren't cap stable, I'd really rather have the cap last at LEAST 10 minutes so I can drop out of siege and dock) with about 2600 dps. I get about 1200 extra dps if I fit a more ganky setup with one repper and 3 damage mods. What I was wondering is how that compares to your average moros fitting, and how the moros compares to other dreads (especially the revelation, I'm all too familiar with the problems of the phoenix and naglfar)
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.03.20 17:30:00 - [13] Its useless to tank a dread (that is, fit it for hp/s regen) because you will tank, at most, something along the lines of 12 - 15k DPS. A well fitted dread will deal approximately 3.5k dps so if you are shot at by more than 5 dreads your tank will be quickly overpowered. Added drawback is that a tank relies heavy on cap - it makes you vulnerable to neuting and its very difficult getting a good dps output and a good tank and enough cap to run the tank for more than 2-3 mins. So, with the fleet sizes on display in today's eve, the 'buffer' fit is standard for most dreads. This means little reppage, if any at all, and a maximisation of the effective hit points by means of modules that improve resistances and rigs that improve hit points. Damage is a very close second, with 2 damage mods being a rough optimum for most dreads. Capacitor is a very minor concern - as long as you can permanently run your guns and your hardeners, it's generally okay, although a capacitor recharge time under 1500s is a pleasant thing to have.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.20 18:13:00 - [14] TBH where I live capital fleets of more then 5 to a side are almost unheard of, and that's capitals, not dreads, so I think I'd be best off with an active tank ^_^
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2009.03.20 18:20:00 - [15] Originally by: Sokratesz Its useless to tank a dread (that is, fit it for hp/s regen) because you will tank, at most, something along the lines of 12 - 15k DPS. A well fitted dread will deal approximately 3.5k dps so if you are shot at by more than 5 dreads your tank will be quickly overpowered. Added drawback is that a tank relies heavy on cap - it makes you vulnerable to neuting and its very difficult getting a good dps output and a good tank and enough cap to run the tank for more than 2-3 mins. So, with the fleet sizes on display in today's eve, the 'buffer' fit is standard for most dreads. This means little reppage, if any at all, and a maximisation of the effective hit points by means of modules that improve resistances and rigs that improve hit points. Damage is a very close second, with 2 damage mods being a rough optimum for most dreads. Capacitor is a very minor concern - as long as you can permanently run your guns and your hardeners, it's generally okay, although a capacitor recharge time under 1500s is a pleasant thing to have. Sok's wisdom has always been applied in the arena of large, 0.0 alliances and it's pretty much spot on when applied to that theater of operations. Active tanking a dread can work just fine, but it's a totally different mentality, target set, and area of operations. Small LoSec operations against small LoSec corps, etc. where you have single-digit numbers of dreads on the field. Of course, in those situations, the mere presence of a capital ship may well scare off any opponents so you may as well fit no tank at all. (That last statement was pure sarcasm, please do not actually attempt unless you're looking to be on a comedy killmail) -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.03.20 18:33:00 - [16] Originally by: Cambarus TBH where I live capital fleets of more then 5 to a side are almost unheard of, and that's capitals, not dreads, so I think I'd be best off with an active tank ^_^ If you are certain that the engagements will remain small like that, then yes, an active tank is the best choice.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.03.20 19:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Sokratesz it makes you vulnerable to neuting Everything else is spot on but I haven't seen neuts as a large concern. Maybe if you get caught out by yourself. Usually the range of the neuts prevent them from being used. And neut mods on pos's are often disabled before entering siege.
Mo adib Titan Industries Technology Team	Posted - 2009.03.20 22:14:00 - [18] Originally by: Cambarus TBH where I live capital fleets of more then 5 to a side are almost unheard of, and that's capitals, not dreads, so I think I'd be best off with an active tank ^_^ going from this and a mention of docking up immediately after siege earlier can I summise that you intend to camp low sec stations with a sieged moros? first off before I get all trolly, the moros gets the drone dmg bonus without siege and being you cant hit anything but a stationary cap or tower with the guns in siege there is no reason to ever siege a moros other then when you are killing a tower or killing caps. secondly.... using caps on a station in lowsec is kind of like giving a shotgun to a slow kid... his effectiveness with the weapon will be minimal and there is a good chance he will do something stupid. if you would like to tell me where you operate I can come test your tank for you, or we can just locator agent you up and say hi...... and yes I would totally jump a dread fleet 5 or more jumps to kill a lone station sieging dread in lowsec...
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.20 22:55:00 - [19] I assure you that this moros will not be used in lowsec, just a fairly quiet (due to its being hard to reach combined with its being npc owned) stretch of nullsec. ^_^ And tbh it won't be dropping into siege unless there's a cap fight going on, but like I said cap fights tend not to get bigger then 5 or so to a side.
Crazy Tasty Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.03.21 00:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Bronson Hughes Regarding SMCs vs CCCs on capital ships, always always always go for CCCs. You've got an insane amount of base cap to begin with and even though your peak cap/s does go up with SMCs, it takes exactly the same amount of time for your cap to recharge. This means that you can't use your jump drive (which requires a fixed % of your total cap) any faster and this is generally a bad thing. CCCs, on the other hand, reduce your total cap recharge time letting you jump faster. Seriously, don't waste SMCs on capitals; either go the appropriate tank buffer rigs (buffer/gank fit dreads) or CCCs (everything else). Not so imo. Following numbers are for lvl 4/5 skills across the board on my Moros: 2 x SMC 1x CCC = 84 cap a sec recharge and 86789 total cap 3x ccc = 87 cap a sec recharge and only 65625 total cap So, for the loss of a whopping 3 cap/sec recharge I gain over 21000 base cap. When you cyno you lose about 70% of your total cap, so with a SMC/CCC mix you have basically the same recharge but more starting cap after you cyno, for a hot drop that's pretty useful. Time to jump again; if you jump into an area, don't siege, and immediately need to jump back out while not being able to dock/un-dock to top off cap. Cause lets face it, if you siege you have plenty of time to recharge, if you have to tank much at all while sieged you will not make it back to 70% anyway. Time to recharge to 70% on both setups: SMC/CCC Mix: 413 seconds or 6min 45 sec. CCC: 299 seconds, or about 5 min. So, for a trade of 1 min 45 sec, that you would only need in a fairly niche situation, you gain over 20k base cap and keep practically the same recharge. ------ // This is by design. When a ship jumps through a gate, it clears all aggression. // - BH ******** Pew on gate, if it gets hot, jump through and Ctrl-Q. Game mechanic endorsed by CCP.

Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2009.03.21 00:27:00 - [21] Originally by: Crazy Tasty SMC/CCC Mix: 413 seconds or 6min 45 sec. CCC: 299 seconds, or about 5 min. So, for a trade of 1 min 45 sec, that you would only need in a fairly niche situation, you gain over 20k base cap and keep practically the same recharge. The first time you lose a capital ship because you had to wait another minute before having enough cap to jump, you'll understand the reasoning. If you land with ~30% cap, you're already going to be at roughly peak recharge so that buffer is really less impressive than it appears. If you know in advance that you're mainly going to use a dread for hotdropping, I could see getting away with replacing once CCC with an SMC, but no more than that really. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Mo adib Titan Industries Technology Team	Posted - 2009.03.21 02:28:00 - [22] Originally by: Crazy Tasty Originally by: Bronson Hughes Regarding SMCs vs CCCs on capital ships, always always always go for CCCs. You've got an insane amount of base cap to begin with and even though your peak cap/s does go up with SMCs, it takes exactly the same amount of time for your cap to recharge. This means that you can't use your jump drive (which requires a fixed % of your total cap) any faster and this is generally a bad thing. CCCs, on the other hand, reduce your total cap recharge time letting you jump faster. Seriously, don't waste SMCs on capitals; either go the appropriate tank buffer rigs (buffer/gank fit dreads) or CCCs (everything else). Not so imo. Following numbers are for lvl 4/5 skills across the board on my Moros: 2 x SMC 1x CCC = 84 cap a sec recharge and 86789 total cap 3x ccc = 87 cap a sec recharge and only 65625 total cap So, for the loss of a whopping 3 cap/sec recharge I gain over 21000 base cap. When you cyno you lose about 70% of your total cap, so with a SMC/CCC mix you have basically the same recharge but more starting cap after you cyno, for a hot drop that's pretty useful. Time to jump again; if you jump into an area, don't siege, and immediately need to jump back out while not being able to dock/un-dock to top off cap. Cause lets face it, if you siege you have plenty of time to recharge, if you have to tank much at all while sieged you will not make it back to 70% anyway. Time to recharge to 70% on both setups: SMC/CCC Mix: 413 seconds or 6min 45 sec. CCC: 299 seconds, or about 5 min. So, for a trade of 1 min 45 sec, that you would only need in a fairly niche situation, you gain over 20k base cap and keep practically the same recharge. I have been in multiple situations where I was able to jump out within 10 seconds of enemy dictors dropping onto my dreads.... not to mention this setup you like makes travel fits less efficient. long story short folks, go with ccc's
Crackzilla The Shadow Order New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.03.21 06:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Mo adib long story short folks, go with ccc's But that suffers from lack of buffer which is an issue in large fights. So either 3x ccc's or the 2x trimark 1x ccc setup. Or 3x trimarks. Probably go for buffer if you're expecting large cap battles otherwise 3x cccs are a safe bet.
Mo adib Titan Industries Technology Team	Posted - 2009.03.21 07:27:00 - [24] apparently I made the short story to short, I just meant in a comparison between ccc and smc go with all ccc. personally I am of the two trimark blend but to each their own and it depends what their fighting environment usually is.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.03.21 10:01:00 - [25] Edited by: Sokratesz on 21/03/2009 10:05:37 'buffer' cap is almost never an issue, in long fights it is sustained cap/s and the ability to regain it quickly much more important. Cap warfare is about percentages, not absolute amounts, due to the nature of jumping, and you'll be doing a lot of that. Either way, dreads need HP rigs for large fights anyway. Carriers need ccc, without exceptions.
Mo adib Titan Industries Technology Team	Posted - 2009.03.21 10:43:00 - [26] also why dont you leave your mission hub for a little while... :)


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