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VB Sarge
Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.
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Posted - 2009.03.21 02:33:00 -
[1]
In here, I would like to see if we as a collective whole can't come to some general agreement and catalog the "difficulty" of Wormholes based on Class levels.
Example: (keep in mind I have very little experience in wormholes over Class 3 difficulty, these are just general examples of some preliminary findings)
Class 1 - generally easily solo able by a HAC or BC Class 2 - somewhat solo able by a HAC or BC Class 3 - minimum suggested gang of 2x HAC/BC and 1x Logistics, alternatively 2x tanked BS Class 4 - 5-8 man remote rep BS with 1x ecm support Class 5 - 15 man remote rep BS fleet with ecm support Class 6 - 25 man remote rep BS fleet with ecm support
While this will be a heavily debated topic I imagine, I am confident that we will be able to come out with at least a rough idea on what it will take to successfully enter and exit a wormhole.
If this is met with ire on the premise of "destroying the discovery factor for the general eve community" well, that sucks.
-Sarge
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VB Sarge
Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.
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Posted - 2009.03.21 02:33:00 -
[2]
*Resevered*
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NCP Bullet
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Posted - 2009.03.21 03:03:00 -
[3]
What can be expected for resources found in the different Classes of WHS (worm hole space not Wasilla High School) For the carebear types to fill their heavy wallets??
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Sheikh Yarbhouti
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Posted - 2009.03.21 05:07:00 -
[4]
I was able to solo a Cosmic Anomaly in a Class 3 with a single Nighthawk, but it wasn't easy in that it required multiple warpouts and generally wasn't worth the time I put into it. If I had more dps in a second ship, it would work well.
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Trader Master
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Posted - 2009.03.23 01:35:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Trader Master on 23/03/2009 01:35:47 We tried class 5 WH with 6-7 spider tanked bs-es gang and belive me its almost impossible. Its more like suicide than fight.
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sightceer
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Posted - 2009.03.23 05:26:00 -
[6]
A group of dedicated logistics pilots will make things go much smoother. However, it is very hard for all BS fleets to run the harder sites because of the large number of frigates. Take along some ships to kill the frigs, or take along breakfast, lunch, dinner, and lots and lots of ammo. It will take a looong time to kill all those frigs with BS guns, and drones don't last more than a few minutes at most.
I am not sure that a remote rep BS fleet can do the hardest sites, the damage is fierce and you will eventually run out of cap boosters. Although, I suppose if you had lots of ecm, you could do it, but when a Scorp misses his jams, he is primaried.
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Janine Ramsey
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Posted - 2009.03.23 11:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: sightceer and drones don't last more than a few minutes at most.
maybe have a look here
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sightceer
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Posted - 2009.03.23 13:39:00 -
[8]
The TD's may work in a lower difficulty WH, but in a Deadly, they are not realistic. You start out with a swarm of 20 frigs and 7 sentry guns. It gets much worse as it goes on.
I ran one yesterday, the spawns triggered before we had cleared the field of the previous spawn (not sure of the triggers yet). We had 16 Sleeper BS's, 20 Cruisers and 40 Frigs, most on the field at the same time. Coordinating the logistics was enough of a problem, trying to coordinate EW and TD's would be well beyond most FC's ability under those circumstances. There is a lot going on in these sites, just watching the sleepers to see which one is remote repping your current target so you can jam him is tough.
You can do these sites with a good gang. Logistics, EW, heavy damage, and dedicated frig killers (recommend command ships). The loot was fat
As with all things in Eve, there is more than one way to get the job done. Give you way a try, if it works great, if not, learn from your mistakes and try again.
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Durindana
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.03.23 15:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: sightceer I ran one yesterday, the spawns triggered before we had cleared the field of the previous spawn (not sure of the triggers yet). We had 16 Sleeper BS's, 20 Cruisers and 40 Frigs, most on the field at the same time. Coordinating the logistics was enough of a problem, trying to coordinate EW and TD's would be well beyond most FC's ability under those circumstances. There is a lot going on in these sites, just watching the sleepers to see which one is remote repping your current target so you can jam him is tough.
lulz **** I <3 the sleepers. It's like CCP sat around and thought "how can we get those bastard players to actually have to use all these crazy ships we came up with?"
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2009.03.24 15:30:00 -
[10]
Originally by: VB Sarge "difficulty" of Wormholes based on Class levels
Are we talking about the difficulty of anomalies (a few easily found in every system), or some rarer exotic Radar sites?
Would guess anomalies would offer somewhat standard difficulty assesment. To start off: Class 5 anomalies with 80% remote rep boost - 2x Guardian, 2x Falcons, 4 HAC DPS ship (+ some gang links) -> doable but slow
Not super profitable, 4-5 such anomalies = 1B loot.
-Lasse
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Pwett
QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2009.03.24 15:37:00 -
[11]
What I find most interesting is the exponential rise in difficulty.
The question is, is the reward increasing exponentially as well? _______________ <Q> QUANT Hegemony QUANT is rebuilding, EVE-Mail me for recruitment info. Item Database |
sightceer
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Posted - 2009.03.24 22:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Heikki
Originally by: VB Sarge "difficulty" of Wormholes based on Class levels
Are we talking about the difficulty of anomalies (a few easily found in every system), or some rarer exotic Radar sites?
Would guess anomalies would offer somewhat standard difficulty assesment. To start off: Class 5 anomalies with 80% remote rep boost - 2x Guardian, 2x Falcons, 4 HAC DPS ship (+ some gang links) -> doable but slow
Not super profitable, 4-5 such anomalies = 1B loot.
-Lasse
I am surprised the falcons did not get popped. So far we have only used Scorps for EW since they have a bigger buffer.
A class 6 mag site can have a much as 6 bil or so total loot. It can be profitable, but you have to take a fair sized gang in, so it gets spread around. And those sites don't grow on trees.
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Pwett What I find most interesting is the exponential rise in difficulty.
The question is, is the reward increasing exponentially as well?
not really. if you consider the risk of losing your ship to sleepers ( the value of the ships being fairly high) and the risk of a pirate gang roaming in plus the fact you would in theory divide the loot between all those involved your really not looking at good income for the risk.
Their is more risk than ratting in allied 0.0 space with a 1/2 way decent intel channel and SS.
Ive done some class 1 and 2s solo and a 3 with 1 more person.
your looking at 25-50 mil an hour this includes only travel time in the WH popping a scan probe for the anoms and warping to each/ loot and salvaging using the combat ship and not a dedicate salvager.
Ive done a few radars and they usually have one decent paying item in them( a R.A.M or something similar) the rest tends to be normal radar stuff( but the sleeper version). I found the radar sites to be on par with the anoms with difficulty. some slightly easier some slightly harder.
On the flip side... you can make in most cases more isk off missions and ratting BS sized rats in belts with less headache and less risk.
Before WHs become more profitable and thus more appealing for the risk/reward a few things need to happen.
1) the novelty needs to wear off. alot of people are doing Whs cause they are new. Some of these people ( not including those who do it as a corp/alliance who is going to run a base in wh space) will eventually stop doing WHs or do them much less often.
2) once their is production chains established with relible and constant supply of all the necessary materials to build a ship/subsytem from scratch, the demand for parts are going to go up.
3) once people find a use for t3 ships be it missioning, ratting, pvp, etc the demand is going to stabilize and become constant.
Once all these come togather you can better assess how much reward is in WH exploring. T3 ships, i hear, arent good at any one thing and this is a problem in MMOs as players will always try to use the best the can afford. So introducing what players consider subpar for their needs will be an item that spends alot of time in the hanger.
CCP is suppose to be coming out with more subsystems. These extra combo will probably help t3s a bit. But i think if they want to make t3s a mainstream ship they are going to have to bait the hook better to get people to bite. IMO, they should introduce t3 mods only useable on t3 ships. and eventually it needs to pan out to be "better" than t2... cause people are going to use what is better... it is the bane of all MMOs. the best fit/best combo of items will always be cookiecutter. many MMOs have spent years trying to get rid of that issue...none have succeeded to my knowledge.
Lil off topic but....ehhh
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Vasali Tor
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Posted - 2009.03.25 03:51:00 -
[14]
Originally by: VB Sarge
Class 1 - generally easily solo able by a HAC or BC Class 2 - somewhat solo able by a HAC or BC
-Sarge
If this is true, easily soloable refers to what? a fully passive drake/nighthawk or a drake with some of it's tank killed by codebreakers?
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VB Sarge
Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.
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Posted - 2009.03.25 09:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Vasali Tor
If this is true, easily soloable refers to what? a fully passive drake/nighthawk or a drake with some of it's tank killed by codebreakers?
Class 1's were cake, didn't take much. An active tank Myrm ran a Class 1 with 1 local rep without any problems. In the Class 2, the second rep had to be used here and there. A Ishtar perma tanked the Class 2 without much issues.
As far as Drakes go... I ran my Drake with 3x LSE's 2x Invul, 1x Ab in the mids, damage control, power diagnostic, and 2x bcs's in the lows. Rigs were 2x em 1x therm resist rig, and I had pretty much no issue in the Class 2.
These were in Anomolies. In the Radar and Mag sites in Class 1 and 2, we found they were easier than the Anomolies for some reason, and only took about 5 mins to run through them. Often the first BC in was able to damn near clear the site before the support could get in.
One thing I have noticed, from talking to a lot of different people on the subject, is intelligence is a decisive factor with being able to run the different encounters. If you primary the wrong thing, for instance, it can lead to your demise a lot faster, and especially if you don't pay attention and kill the trigger (took me all of 1 day to figure out what the trigger was in the encounters) before clearing the rest of the spawn, you'll be hurting.
As for Class 3's, a Cyclone with a Large shield booster and a Myrm with a double rep went into an anomaly, we were able to get about half of the first one done before we called it quits. We went to the easier one, and with a few warp outs were able to finish it.
The biggest Issue I've seen so far with wormhole encounters, is dps seems to be favorable to tank until you get to Class 4 and above, at which point dps takes a second seat to remote repping through sleeper damage.
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Flinchey
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.26 10:35:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Flinchey on 26/03/2009 10:41:44 Class 2 - somewhat solo able by a HAC or BC
easily ESAILY soloable by a tech 2 fit prophecy
almost could do it in a t1 fit.. with non faction crystals.
easy as.
and no, class 6 is not solable by 25man rr bs... they get melted one by one, i've seen it.
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Logma Ran
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Posted - 2009.03.27 08:02:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Flinchey Edited by: Flinchey on 26/03/2009 10:41:44
and no, class 6 is not solable by 25man rr bs... they get melted one by one, i've seen it.
I want to "sol" with a 25 man rr bs gang.
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Wyn Do
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Posted - 2009.03.27 08:31:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Wyn Do on 27/03/2009 08:33:07 I solo'd a Radar site last night in a class 3. I was in a Harby (Highs: 5x Pulse II, cloak, prober, salvager)
The site had 5 cruisers and 6 frigs. The frigs caused me the most trouble, once they got under my guns, and orbitted me at about 6500m, i couldn't hit them. I had to warp in at 100km, kited them out, then in at 0. Once they MWD'd toward me, I could kill one, maybe two before they got too close. Rinse, repeat. The Cruisers were easy by comparison, as they didn't seem to chew my drones up.
The amount of incoming damage was quite high, and even if I didn't have to warp in/out to kite the frigs, I'd have had to do it anyway to rep up.
Maybe if I didn't have to drop turrets for utility mods, it'd have been easier for, but solo is solo :)
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Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.03.27 11:45:00 -
[19]
I am not sure how 5 & 6 split out, but i like associating the tiers with corresponding anomaly names.
Anomalies
Perimeter: Tier 1 - camp - ambush point
Perimeter: Tier 2 - checkpoint - hangar
Frontier: Tier 3 - outpost - fortification
Frontier: Tier 4 - command - barracks
Core: Tiers 5 & 6 - garrison - stronghold - bastion - citadel ___________________________________________
Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Im Hot
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Posted - 2009.03.27 13:31:00 -
[20]
Thats a good breakdown of the tiers reading through i was kind of lost till i got to the last post. I am able to solo 1-3 in an EOS fully tanked out with 2XMAR. I use drones all the time just have to micro manage them.
But too who ever stated learning triggers spawns is key. Fully pay attention to that. I dont see the difficulty going down any otherwise they turn into level 4's. There is more to a game than just collecting money. Like say maybe a challange that makes you think. I hope CCP keeps them just the way they are. WH's brought some fun back into the game for me. I do not enjoy the drama of pirate corps/null sec corps and alliances. Prefer my 10man corp we do what we want when we want. This gives us 0.0 feel with being able to go back to our carebear style of play when we dont have much time to play.
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Gaius Aemilius
Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation
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Posted - 2009.03.27 14:22:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Gaius Aemilius on 27/03/2009 14:25:27
Originally by: Nyota Sol
Anomalies
Perimeter: Tier 1 - camp - ambush point
Perimeter: Tier 2 - checkpoint - hangar
Frontier: Tier 3 - outpost - fortification
Frontier: Tier 4 - command - barracks
Core: Tiers 5 & 6 - garrison - stronghold - bastion - citadel
I just want to quote this because it is such a good system.
I'd like to know better how to differntiate a 5 from a 6 though. It's the only one mixed up. My guess is we lack data.
Any fellow w-spacers out there care to answer that lack for us all?
{edit} The only real difference I see is that my colony tends to speak of "diving" into w-space, or "submerging" below k-space or getting "beneath" the boundary layer. Since our terminology is a bit more naval submariner in style we think of w-space as having "Layers" rather than "Tiers". But it's purely a semantic difference. {/edit} Wormholes ate my sig.
They said it was yummy. |
Rash Mendoza
GIT-R-DUN Southern Connection
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Posted - 2009.03.27 14:33:00 -
[22]
Anomalies
Perimeter: Tier 1 - camp - ambush point
Perimeter: Tier 2 - checkpoint - hangar
Frontier: Tier 3 - outpost - fortification
Frontier: Tier 4 - command - barracks
Core: Tier 5 - garrison - stronghold
Core: Tier 6 - bastion - citadel
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Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.03.27 14:47:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 27/03/2009 14:50:09 Our corp lived 9 days in a Class 5 system (J103959). We tried garrison and stronghold anomalies. Usually with 4-5 RR BS gangs. Our DPS was not very efficient (no ECM to break sleeper RR) but we managed to kill rats (slowly). RR was working too, but it was always very close. Our real problem was energy.
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Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.03.27 15:16:00 -
[24]
Reformatted a little. I posted this on the FAQ thread as well.
Class 1 (unknown): Perimeter Anomaly - camp - ambush point
Class 2 (unknown): Perimeter Anomaly - checkpoint - hangar
Class 3 (dangerous unknown): Frontier Anomaly - outpost - fortification
Class 4 (dangerous unknown): Frontier Anomaly - command - barracks
Class 5 (deadly unknown): Core Anomaly - garrison - stronghold
Class 6 (deadly unknown): Core Anomaly - bastion - citadel ___________________________________________
Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Jon Neeley001
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.27 23:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Trader Master Edited by: Trader Master on 23/03/2009 01:35:47 We tried class 5 WH with 6-7 spider tanked bs-es gang and belive me its almost impossible. Its more like suicide than fight.
yeah and whats worse the wormhole wont generally take more mass than that both ways so you cant even out gun them
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.03.28 00:25:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Nyota Sol Reformatted a little. I posted this on the FAQ thread as well.
Class 1 (unknown): Perimeter Anomaly - camp - ambush point
Class 2 (unknown): Perimeter Anomaly - checkpoint - hangar
Class 3 (dangerous unknown): Frontier Anomaly - outpost - fortification
Class 4 (dangerous unknown): Frontier Anomaly - command - barracks
Class 5 (deadly unknown): Core Anomaly - garrison - stronghold
Class 6 (deadly unknown): Core Anomaly - bastion - citadel
I've cleared two different Frontier anomalies within a plain old unknown system, so this is incorrect in some way. I can't remember exactly which ones they were, but I do remember one started with a BS and three Argos turrets.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.03.28 14:39:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 28/03/2009 14:40:29
Interesting.
And now that you mention it i had heard of that before, which is why i never tried to directly correlate them before. I feel like the "unknown" classifications aren't as clear cut.
Perhaps there's a general value a system gets, and so a Class3 with frontier assets but without certain other things could be lowered to just "unknown" difficulty. ___________________________________________
Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Murasaki Ryujin
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Posted - 2009.03.28 15:08:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks
Our corp lived 9 days in a Class 5 system (J103959). We tried garrison and stronghold anomalies. Usually with 4-5 RR BS gangs. Our DPS was not very efficient (no ECM to break sleeper RR) but we managed to kill rats (slowly). RR was working too, but it was always very close. Our real problem was energy.
Originally by: Trader Master
We tried class 5 WH with 6-7 spider tanked bs-es gang and belive me its almost impossible. Its more like suicide than fight.
Did either of you note any strange effects? This could easilly make a difference especially in a class 5 or 6
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Jalum Krayal
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Posted - 2009.03.28 15:17:00 -
[29]
I'm not positive on this, but my understanding is that the three "tiers" break down like this:
Unknown Class 1 Class 2 Class 3
Dangerous Class 4 Class 5
Deadly Class 6
I believe (again, a guess) that C4-C6 are where the Sleepers begin to warp scramble. This makes learning the triggers even more important.
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Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.03.28 15:26:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jalum Krayal
I'm not positive on this, but my understanding is that the three "tiers" break down like this:
That would be a nice, simple explanation and classification. Can anybody confirm? ___________________________________________
Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
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