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Kesha Cachet
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Posted - 2009.03.21 08:34:00 -
[1]
I'm primarily an Industrialist and Explorer. Before Apocrypha I scanned down Exploration sites with the old scanning system, so I trained up to fly a Covert Ops ship (Cheetah, I'm Minmatar). My husband is purely combat oriented and flies a Vagabond. I want to start training up a ship that will be useful to accompany him and I noticed that I already have all the requirements to fly a Stealth Bomber. And because I fly the CovOps I've trained up to use the CovOps Cloak II, which will work nicely on the SB. I'm trained up significantly in missiles already and it would not take me long to train up Cruise Missiles, and I notice that the Minmatar Stealth Bomber has loads of Cruise Missile bonuses. I was all set to get a Stealth Bomber and start flying with my husband offering cruise missile dps until someone told me that all Stealth Bombers suck, and suck badly.
Is this true? What do you guys recommend I fly alongside my husband? We do a lot of mission running, but he PvPs and I want to accompany him on some PvP expeditions, so I want to contribute. I have continued with Exploration and scan down WH's and other signatures so I need something I can use to help fight the npcs we find at these sites. I've also looked at the Force Recon ship, which is described as a nice companion to HACs (which is, after all, what my husband flies), but I've got substantial training to do for that (and anyway I don't know what I'd do with a cyno ...).
What do you guys think, which ship do you recommend I take?
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2009.03.21 08:48:00 -
[2]
Stealthbombers have alot of issues that makes them less attractive ships, in many cases "not viable", but for any kind of team setup where you fly with people just for fun etc, you can definately bring one. It's not gonna be the best ship in the fleet, but it will do better than no ship.
In the minmatar SB case, it's quite quick, which actually (imho) makes it good for roaming gangs. With a Vagabond and that natural speed you have a nice setup for moving around when things get dire.
Eh, before this gets too long; It's a good starting ship tbh. You will have a high survivability (range, speed, cloak) and while using it you will get combat experience.
Fit your lows for speed, and mids for range and/or e-war. Target painter or damp should work nice. It's a fun ship to fly. Not the best, but fun. -
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Wilma Seth
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Posted - 2009.03.21 08:58:00 -
[3]
Get a shield tank. Minimal survival speed is 2.6km/s to run from disruptor. Cloak approach secretly Falcon or something and let your husband warp to you in 5 km...
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.21 09:04:00 -
[4]
Stealth bombers are utter trash for many reasons, but one of the most important: they can't use the covert ops cloak. If you want a cloaking combat ship, get a force recon. -----------
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.03.21 09:15:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Crackzilla on 21/03/2009 09:16:03 Yes. They suck. Limited niche.
Train up to fly falcon. In the short term you could probably get into an EAS ship like a Kitsune to jam/scout. Add a tackle if you feel suicidal. It won't help probing.
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Benco97
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.21 09:23:00 -
[6]
Actually I find stealth bombers to be great fun. You just have to learn to pick your targets is all.
The Hound is my SB of choice which I fit like so:
High: 3x Cruise missile Launcher II, 1x Improved cloak II, 1x Core scan launcher Mids: 1x Target Painter II, 1x Remote Sensor Damp II (Range script), 1x Sensor Booster II (Range script) Lows: 3x Nano II
Now the inclusion of the Target Painter may be a controversial one as stealth bombers get a great bonus to explosion radius but remember that the TP doesn't only award you a bonus, it helps everyone in the group. Admittedly my setup is more for long range bombardment of targets than quick in-and-out guerilla strikes but I find that it works quite well if you are aware of your targets abilities.
Many people will tell you that the SB is useless and to be honest it isn't one of the more directly powerful classes out there, you cannot afford to come under fire because you will die and they are more effective in groups for strike attacks, the lack of cov-ops cloak is a blow for active target hunting yes but why would you want to engage something in an SB? I imagine the people who want the cov-ops cloak are looking to solo-gank haulers and such, you don't send the SB's in first so why is lack of a cov-ops cloak a problem? It isn't if used correctly and trust me, I've flown in SB squads where they were used to GREAT effect.
Now, you aren't sure if you want to fly them or not, I'd say why not buy yourself one (They aren't expensive afterall) and try it out? I know personally I love the little things and get a great deal of enjoyment from a successful SB attack, unfortunately a single SB isn't going to be much help to him in PvP as you'll probably go down rather quickly unless you're very careful with your ranges but for other activities then you'd definitely be helpful to him.
Whatever you decide just remember that it's a sad thing when your choice of ship is based off spreadsheet results instead of the one you enjoy.
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Asuka Smith
Gallente StarHunt
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Posted - 2009.03.21 09:36:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Benco97 Whatever you decide just remember that it's a sad thing when your choice of ship is based off spreadsheet results instead of the one you enjoy.
Nothing wrong with enjoying being successful and useful. I doubt many people have fun losing first in Monopoly landing on nothing but jail and chance and never owning a property (AKA trying to PVP in a Stealth Bomber).
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Benco97
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.21 10:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Asuka Smith Nothing wrong with enjoying being successful and useful. I doubt many people have fun losing first in Monopoly landing on nothing but jail and chance and never owning a property (AKA trying to PVP in a Stealth Bomber).
Absolutely right, there's nothing wrong with it if you get enjoyment from it. Different people draw their enjoyment from things in different ways though, for me, losing a ship does not mean that I'm not having fun and killing a ship does not necessarily mean i'm enjoying it if it was no risk.
Excitement is what does it for me in combat and I just don't find those great big hulking ships exciting, regardless of any win/loss ratios. This is why in combat you'll find me in SB's or Dessies, two VERY overlooked classes of ship which both require a different method of use from the norm in order to survive.
In the end EVE is a game and if the OP would enjoy flying SB's then isn't that the best reason to fly one? Sure, there's going to be losses but it all depends how you deal with that doesn't it.
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Asuka Smith
Gallente StarHunt
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Posted - 2009.03.21 10:07:00 -
[9]
I see your point from a philosophical perspective, but as a man who enjoys to win I cannot understand how anyone could enjoy losing more than winning.
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Benco97
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.21 10:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Asuka Smith I see your point from a philosophical perspective, but as a man who enjoys to win I cannot understand how anyone could enjoy losing more than winning.
Enjoying losing would be a little strange but if you can go into a fight and get destroyed, lose your ship and your pod only to jump back up and try again, if you'll be there for your team if you're ready or not, if you will fight overwhelming odds to help your friends knowing that you could lose ..well.. that just makes victory all the more worthwhile.
Or perhaps I'm just being a little overly romantic about the whole thing and I suck at combat
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Asuka Smith
Gallente StarHunt
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Posted - 2009.03.21 10:18:00 -
[11]
The difference between you and I is that you are a road person and I am a destination person.
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Benco97
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.21 10:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Asuka Smith The difference between you and I is that you are a road person and I am a destination person.
That is a good way of putting it actually. Very poignant.
I'll have to remember that.
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Kaerik
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Posted - 2009.03.21 10:23:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Asuka Smith The difference between you and I is that you are a road person and I am a destination person.
this just in, stealthbomber pilots are space gypsies and also insane
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Thenoran
Caldari Tranquility Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.21 11:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Benco97 The Hound is my SB of choice which I fit like so:
High: 3x Cruise missile Launcher II, 1x Improved cloak II, 1x Core scan launcher Mids: 1x Target Painter II, 1x Remote Sensor Damp II (Range script), 1x Sensor Booster II (Range script) Lows: 3x Nano II
No BCU's? No Sensor Boosters with Scan Resolution? The only thing you might end up killing with that is if you catch someone uncloaked and AFK in a safespot, but even then, a Core Probe Launcher won't find them for you.
I've had good fun with Stealth Bombers, but they really are fleet ships, trying solo with them is currently highly inefficient as the target can simply warp out. As a rule to myself, I always cram the lowslots with as much BCUs as the CPU will allow to make sure the volleys do maximum damage.
Usually I'm 130km out, dealing sustained damage to anything that is tackled by the fleet, all I got are Sensor Boosters, a Passive Targetter and the Launchers with BCUS and a Cloak ofcourse.
Due to the cloak, I double up as Scout, and a Stealth Bomber is a nice thing to have against a Falcon if it's within range.
But yeh, don't try to solo with them, you're very unlikely to kill anything that way. As a wingman though, it might work nicely as long as the tackler stays in one piece.
Not kidding you though, Stealth Bombers need improving in multiple fields, but can be fun to fly for sure. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.03.21 11:16:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Misanth It's not gonna be the best ship in the fleet, but it will do better than no ship.
This is technically true. I don't allow stealth bombers in my fleets though because a lot of the time the enemy will know how many pilots you have (local count) but not necessarily know your shiptypes, so if they see 20 people in you're fleet they'll bring 25 or 30. Every stealth bomber in my gang is, in my eyes, a ship that makes my fleet look larger and does little else
It's like painting a wooden wall to look like concrete to deter attackers - when they call your bluff and bring dynamite, that wall is gonna get trashed hard.
(my gang is the wall )
Originally by: Benco97 Whatever you decide just remember that it's a sad thing when your choice of ship is based off spreadsheet results instead of the one you enjoy.
I agree wholeheartedly - if I were to just keep spreadsheets in mind I'd probably fly little else but cheaply rigged, gank battlecruisers, but I prefer HACs instead. Any way I slice it though I can't find being totally ineffectual fun, which is why I don't fly stealth bombers That's probably because, though, I can't think of any reason to bring stealth bombers that couldn't be fulfilled by a cheaper, better ship.
YMMV of course, just my experience. __________________________________
Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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Thenoran
Caldari Tranquility Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.21 11:21:00 -
[16]
I suppose the only semi-effective way to go solo in a Stealth Bomber is to find a fleet fight and pick off a target that way. Two fleets heavily into fighting each other might not pay a lot of attention to a lone Stealth Bomber that might not even be red. Might not be the nicest thing to do but who cares? ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2009.03.21 11:33:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Misanth It's not gonna be the best ship in the fleet, but it will do better than no ship.
This is technically true. I don't allow stealth bombers in my fleets though because a lot of the time the enemy will know how many pilots you have (local count) but not necessarily know your shiptypes, so if they see 20 people in you're fleet they'll bring 25 or 30. Every stealth bomber in my gang is, in my eyes, a ship that makes my fleet look larger and does little else
My point was basicly this; she wants to fly with her husband, have no PvP experience, and could easily get into a Stealthbomber. It'd take time to get into a more useful ship, and during that time the SB is actually decent to get some learning xp.
Depending on the gang size, motive, approach, targets, etc.. I assume she want small sized roaming as her guy flies Vagabond. The Hound + Vaga doesn't do that bad. Warp in at 100, use tp/damp and you'll add (miniscule) damage.
The other option I'd be looking at would be a Rifter, cheap and great ship, with a day or few of Navigation (and/or Gunnery) it'll be a nice little addition to most gangs.
That SB is better than postponing the PvP because of a lack of ship. And it's definately not useless. Just not ideal. -
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Wideen
Warped Mining Strip Mining Club
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Posted - 2009.03.21 12:40:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Wideen on 21/03/2009 12:40:16 I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think most of this omfg they zuxxorzz is exaggerated. Although they have been nerfed too much (can't decloak, fire a volley and instantly cloak and wait for the volley to hit).
Although, as a gang ship I believe they serve their purpose and they are actually quite fun to fly. Ignore all prejudice against them and just fly it, you will be useful in your gang and you'll have tons of fun.
What a SB is not, however, is a solo ship.
Edit. correction ________________________________________ "I robbed a goon and I liked it" - Suas |
Asuka Smith
Gallente StarHunt
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Posted - 2009.03.21 13:18:00 -
[19]
Let's turn this into a Stealth Bomber balance thread now guys (Misanth sort of /thread'd it when he pointed out the obvious fact that this is the only PVP ship she can fly so it actually is the best ship at her disposal)
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2009.03.21 13:28:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Misanth on 21/03/2009 13:28:38
Originally by: Asuka Smith Let's turn this into a Stealth Bomber balance thread now guys (Misanth sort of /thread'd it when he pointed out the obvious fact that this is the only PVP ship she can fly so it actually is the best ship at her disposal)
The pathetic part is I flew the Amarr StealthShrimp in the northen MAX-campaign. Admittedly I had a sniper fit Apoc in the system one jump off but that's what trying to run inter-alliance ops do to you. After not being let into some alliance/corp POS, being shot at by IRON's JB POS when giving chase, etc.. you kinda feel like using a cheap sniper rather than your slow ass plated Apoc.
That was pre-QR tho so they were slightly more useful. My point? There's reasons to fly even "bad" ships. -
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Asuka Smith
Gallente StarHunt
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Posted - 2009.03.21 13:55:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Asuka Smith on 21/03/2009 13:55:33 Well at the very least it could be a scout that can actually shoot instead of risking the taranis just because it is the cheapest ship in the gang even though it is our only tackle.........
And hell I bet getting 12 of them together left by a single Arazu into some noob space to super-volley ratting ravens in the belts would be fun too.
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Logan Xerxes
Steel Soldier's Stainless St33l
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Posted - 2009.03.21 13:57:00 -
[22]
Ignore the fools. The Stealthbomber is a tool like any other and it's only fault is that it's role is verry narrow. Assuming you keep to that role, you'll do fine. Go beyond it, you'll be served better by other ships.
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Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2009.03.21 15:46:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 21/03/2009 15:49:48
Originally by: Thenoran
I've had good fun with Stealth Bombers, but they really are fleet ships, trying solo with them is currently highly inefficient as the target can simply warp out. As a rule to myself, I always cram the lowslots with as much BCUs as the CPU will allow to make sure the volleys do maximum damage.
Usually I'm 130km out, dealing sustained damage to anything that is tackled by the fleet, all I got are Sensor Boosters, a Passive Targetter and the Launchers with BCUS and a Cloak ofcourse.
Due to the cloak, I double up as Scout, and a Stealth Bomber is a nice thing to have against a Falcon if it's within range.
But yeh, don't try to solo with them, you're very unlikely to kill anything that way. As a wingman though, it might work nicely as long as the tackler stays in one piece.
Not kidding you though, Stealth Bombers need improving in multiple fields, but can be fun to fly for sure.
This.
I pretty much work them the exact same way (with the same fitting), and if you are feeling frisky, two missile velocity rigs will not only have your missiles end up on target quicker but also ensure you will always be in range of an ECM pilot that is in range to hit you. That pretty much means you always have range on them unless you snipe in from two opposite angles.
As for the bad part, it usually comes down to priority in gang-roles. A Bomber have a good alpha and a DPS similar to any other high-damage frigate. Being able to tackle however, is just a so much preferred role over what a Bomber bring to a gang in general (anti-ECM, or whatever small EWar you can contribute), which is why it's almost always better to bring an Interceptor (other Frigates have similar issues, where EAS don't have enough survivability and AF's [while better since QR] still have some length to go to challenge Interceptors as a real alternative).
Their two primary issues:
Then you have two other things to consider: the TTA of missiles, often make missile-snipers unwanted unless you stack them up and give them their own set of targets (which also means stacking Bombers can be both fun and effective at times). Missile TTA have been mentioned before though. At concept it's a pretty cool balancing factor (missiles have TTA to offset qualities that make them strong sniping weapons), but it's gone a bit overboard on the 'real' sniping platforms (bombers, cerberus, cruise-ravens etc), and CCP would probably do good in looking over the Missile velocity vs. Flight time balance. Having missiles going at the speeds of Interceptors, and TTA's over 10s simply doesn't cut it to be effective most of the time. Something as simple as twice the velocity and half the flight time would still mean you have a TTA (and not having the instant damage of turrets), but a more reasonable balance for use of missiles in ingame effective sniping.
Secondly, the cloaked velocity bonus is pretty weak, it really is. It's a cool idea, but in realization it's not a very strong bonus for either the Bombers or their bigger brothers, the Blackops. One idea to remedy that have already been mentioned, letting them use CovOps cloaks. Another idea would be to somehow improve the concept, such as letting them use MWD's under cloak. It would largely be the same concept, but let it rest on a stronger mechanic for the role the ship has.
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Foulque
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Posted - 2009.03.21 17:08:00 -
[24]
Yes they really do suck.
Lots of people love them and continue to use them but they're either dillusional or just don't like risking a ship that would actually be useful ________
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Kesha Cachet
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Posted - 2009.03.21 18:10:00 -
[25]
Wow, lots of *great* replies, thanks guys!
I agree with the sentiment that I should fly what's fun and not some spreadsheet, but I also agree that losing ships isn't fun. Someone also made a good point that the SB is the only pvp ship I'm actually ready to fly and that's true, but I'm patient (although I have 12m SP, I started playing in July and started by putting 5m SP into Learning lol) so I don't mind training up to something more appropriate to support our playstyle.
My husband flies a Vagabond. He has a mission set up and we mission and salvage together. We also go out and scan down exploration sites and ravage them (I'm very skilled at that and also have Hacking and Archaelogy trained), so we have a lot of fun with our little duo. I also mine in a Hulk with T2 crystals and he flies an Industrial (Mammoth) so we have a pretty good duo operation going. We love it. But we recently joined a corp and had to move to their home so we're grinding up new corp standings to do L4's with them. So we have lots of missioning still ahead of us. Because I can scan down WH's, I scout for the corp on wh expeditions and it's resulted in my being involved in pvp fleet operations with 10-20 man fleets. But this is somewhat rare, and for the most part it's going to be me and my husband in his Vaga doing PvE activities.
What's the best ship under these circumstances to accompany him? If we're doing missions and I just want good DPS and ranged alpha strike, is the SB going to be a good fit? My husband and I are not likely to duo PvP, the only time we'd be PvP'ing is when we're with a corp operation and in that context I'll be acting as a scout and scanner and flying my CovOps anyway, not my SB.
Any ideas? Any opinions on the Force Recon ships? Thanks for all the suggestions.
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Taradis
Amarr The Imperial Assassins
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Posted - 2009.03.21 18:59:00 -
[26]
SB's need a cov op cloak bonus it's just that simple wuts the point in warp to some one to just cloak then decloak again. SB's need a lot of lovin
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Benco97
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.21 19:11:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Taradis SB's need a cov op cloak bonus it's just that simple wuts the point in warp to some one to just cloak then decloak again. SB's need a lot of lovin
Please list the situations in which you need to warp cloaked to an unaware target that DON'T involve solo-ganking indies.
If you're in a group then there will always be ships that should be there before the SB, as such, warping in cloaked is a moot point because the target already knows it's under attack. I would DEARLY love for the stealth bombers to gain the ability to use Cov-ops cloaks but I have a hard time rationalising the ability, Cov-ops make far better fleet scouts so have someone in one of those scout instead and use ships for heir intended roles perhaps?
In summation, Cov-ops cloak on SB would be nice but isn't needed and would only be used by newbs to gank industrials.
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Eka Lawrencia
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.21 19:48:00 -
[28]
You need many stealth bombers with their mids used for EW. Or you need one and a bomb launcher.
Cov ops cloaks have a recalibration period, and this would defeat much of the the point of a stealth bomber.
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Yashiri
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Posted - 2009.03.21 19:53:00 -
[29]
if you can fly a stealth bomber then you can train up for an interceptor real quick. you'll be able to keep up with your hubbys vaga, provide some reasonable DPS (in the Claw) help tackle and if you particularly like the idea of cloaking the inty is the best non- cover ops ship that you could put a cloak on.
and intys rock.
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Kesha Cachet
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Posted - 2009.03.21 20:04:00 -
[30]
Ooo, hadn't considered the interceptor. I'll have to look at that class and see how it looks.
Is there any other ship besides CovOps that uses the Covert Ops Cloak II?
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