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Liang Nuren No Salvation Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.23 21:54:00 - [1] Hey folks. I have a question that I think challenges conventional wisdom: I think the lowly Raven might be a better mission runner/ISK maker than the CNR. Before you flame me, hear me out and realize I'm perfectly willing to see things your way and quite likely will agree if you throw any half-way reasoned argument at me. So it basically boils down to the argument that the CNR and Raven are essentially identical, but the CNR has an extra launcher slot. This launcher slot means that it gets 16.5% more launcher DPS (12.5% more total) and loses the ability to fit a tractor + salvager (or even dual tractor if that's more your bag). So it seems that the naive answer is that if salvage+loot makes up more than 12.5% of the mission's available (and easily reachable) ISK that the Raven would in fact make more isk than the CNR. Has anyone done a study or examined this? -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Myrkala Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2009.03.23 21:58:00 - [2] I think it may be true. If you think it in the way that you are ratting in a BC' say a hurricane, do you give up those two last slots to a tractor/salvager or fit for more damage? I think you can technically get more isk/hour out of that. "Ruppie ain't no puppie."
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:00:00 - [3] Depends, are you killing Angels? Cause anything else and you are probably better off just killing everything and moving on. Or were you planning to slowboat around to get to the wrecks that are all spread out between 40-60 kms? But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Argendta	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:04:00 - [4] Edited by: Argendta on 23/03/2009 22:05:51 Many people salvage afterwards in a salvage boat. For such people Raven navy issue is indeed more profitable. I'm not sure how you get more isk/hour, since I don't do lvl4 anymore. As for ratting in 0.0, 6 launchers + beam + salvager is more profitable, in my opinion. P.S. I also have to add, that with recent prices on Fried circuits, you get couple of millions per missions salvaging pretty much anyone.
Liang Nuren No Salvation Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:06:00 - [5] Originally by: Wet Ferret Depends, are you killing Angels? Cause anything else and you are probably better off just killing everything and moving on. Or were you planning to slowboat around to get to the wrecks that are all spread out between 40-60 kms? No, I wouldn't slow-boat around more than a minute or two at most. I find that I am able to salvage the majority of most non-Guristas missions while I run the mission. Guristas and I don't bother because everything's 50km out. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Liang Nuren No Salvation Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:08:00 - [6] Originally by: Argendta Many people salvage afterwards in a salvage boat. For such people Raven navy issue is indeed more profitable. I'm not sure how you get more isk/hour, since I don't do lvl4 anymore. Exactly - that's what I'm trying to ask. Is it more profitable to loot/salvage the simple majority of the mission while you run it, or is it more profitable to come back in a looticane? Bear in mind that coming back in a looticane means you aren't running another mission. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Mikal Drey Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.23 23:10:00 - [7] hey hey are you adding multiboxing to your equations or purely a waven/CNR comparison ? already mentioned is the salvage boat and if your playing solo then you might be onto something but if you factor in multiboxing/alts etc then your way off and CNR is still queen. when i had 2 accounts i would often do a mission and then move on to the next one BUT have the alt doing the cleanup behind me. that way i loose no efficiency on the mission speed. also your "cheapgolemraven" isnt effective at salvagin/tractoring so it will still need to collect in the salvage machine of choice. even when i run missions in the Vargur i still use salvomaticÖ as its more efficient from a solo perspective. what i generally do is tractor the wrecks into a blob or multiple blobs and then grab salvomaticÖ and speed salvage. my salvage ship of choice is a thrasher 5/3 setup with salvage rigs and it mops up real fast. if solo and realsolo not the fake version a CNR/Salvage ship combo would most likely be more efficient than a raven with tractor/salvager. regardless of either - get a golem Shattered Crystal - The best place for ALL your online codes
Liang Nuren No Salvation Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.23 23:18:00 - [8] Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey are you adding multiboxing to your equations or purely a waven/CNR comparison ? already mentioned is the salvage boat and if your playing solo then you might be onto something but if you factor in multiboxing/alts etc then your way off and CNR is still queen. Ya, this was strictly a solo mission grinding question (I tend to keep 2 of my alts together for PVP and one out in the middle of nowhere grinding missions). Quote: also your "cheapgolemraven" isnt effective at salvagin/tractoring so it will still need to collect in the salvage machine of choice. Ya the way I've been handling it is simply to ignore stuff that puts me over my cargo limit (select the best stuff out) or is out of range. Quote: regardless of either - get a golem Well, yeah. I suppose I could do that. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Pwett QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2009.03.23 23:54:00 - [9] Liang, When discussing optimal setups, one should not be salvaging in a non-dedicated salvage ship (most optimal being a hurricane). The Question you need to ask yourself, is how long will the extra 16.5% dps take to overcome the price of the CNR? _______________ <Q> QUANT Hegemony QUANT is rebuilding, EVE-Mail me for recruitment info. Item Database
Liang Nuren No Salvation Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.24 00:05:00 - [10] Originally by: Pwett Liang, When discussing optimal setups, one should not be salvaging in a non-dedicated salvage ship (most optimal being a hurricane). The Question you need to ask yourself, is how long will the extra 16.5% dps take to overcome the price of the CNR? That's exactly the mindset I'm challenging here: optimal setups include the total time you spend on the mission.... and with the Raven you will spend sliiiiggghttly more time running each mission in return for not having to come back in a looticane. It seems like if you spent 20 minutes running a mission, you would have 2 minutes and 30 seconds from undock to dock to loot the important parts of the mission with your looticane. In theory, that would mean the Raven makes more ISK/hr (for a solo missioner)... right? I'm totally down with the answer being 'CNR > Raven', but I'd like more than "just bring a looticane back and loot the mission that way" - because I am absolutely sure that you spend more than 12.5% of the time getting the looticane and coming back to loot the mission! -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Gavin DeVries	Posted - 2009.03.24 03:48:00 - [11] With a single salvager and no salvage tackle rigs, even with Salvaging V you only have a 25% chance per cycle of successfully salvaging a wreck. You have a ship to run the missions in, configured to complete the missions quickly, and another dedicated to salvage with multiple salvagers and rigs. The dedicated ship can salvage 3-4 wrecks at a time in the typical setups, and has double or more the chance of successful salvage per cycle. If all you want to do is salvage while you're running the mission and then move on to the next, fine. If you really want to salvage the mission you will more than make up the minute you lose switching out ships by having a dedicated salvage vessel. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Tauranon Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.03.24 04:37:00 - [12] Originally by: Liang Nuren Hey folks. I have a question that I think challenges conventional wisdom: I think the lowly Raven might be a better mission runner/ISK maker than the CNR. Before you flame me, hear me out and realize I'm perfectly willing to see things your way and quite likely will agree if you throw any half-way reasoned argument at me. So it basically boils down to the argument that the CNR and Raven are essentially identical, but the CNR has an extra launcher slot. This launcher slot means that it gets 16.5% more launcher DPS (12.5% more total) and loses the ability to fit a tractor + salvager (or even dual tractor if that's more your bag). So it seems that the naive answer is that if salvage+loot makes up more than 12.5% of the mission's available (and easily reachable) ISK that the Raven would in fact make more isk than the CNR. Has anyone done a study or examined this? Liang The obvious answer is that you are shooting tanked targets. Giving up 16.5% dps will often cause a disproportionately large increase in time-to-kill, depending of course on your overall character skill/gear levels. Here is the extreme maths case. You have 200 dps, you are shooting a 10k hps target. the target tanks 200 dps. It will not die. You increase to 210 dps, the target dies in 1000 seconds. You increase to 220 dps, and the kill is 500 seconds. 250 dps, and the target dies in 200 seconds. ie, from 210 dps, to 250 dps (40 dps), you make a 500% improvement in kill time. Obviously with high skill characters, the benefits will begin to approach the straightline (16.5% improvement) that you are presuming, but for many players they are still in a reasonably curved benefit area for any extra dps. There is still significant meat on the curve by improving from 500 dps to 600 dps in actual missions as implemented on the server.
Liang Nuren No Salvation Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.24 06:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Tauranon The obvious answer is that you are shooting tanked targets. Giving up 16.5% dps will often cause a disproportionately large increase in time-to-kill, depending of course on your overall character skill/gear levels. Here is the extreme maths case. You have 200 dps, you are shooting a 10k hps target. the target tanks 200 dps. It will not die. You increase to 210 dps, the target dies in 1000 seconds. You increase to 220 dps, and the kill is 500 seconds. 250 dps, and the target dies in 200 seconds. ie, from 210 dps, to 250 dps (40 dps), you make a 500% improvement in kill time. Obviously with high skill characters, the benefits will begin to approach the straightline (16.5% improvement) that you are presuming, but for many players they are still in a reasonably curved benefit area for any extra dps. There is still significant meat on the curve by improving from 500 dps to 600 dps in actual missions as implemented on the server. Yeah, that's a great point. I had thought about that but dismissed it because I haven't been seeing CNRs throwing up substantially better times than my piddly little Raven. For example (from today, before I started wormhole whoring): Duo of Death (Guristas): 00:03:58 Guristas Spies: 00:09:22 Damsel in Distress: 00:18:51 Silence the Informant: 00:27:03 During this time (back to back missions) I pulled in an extra 10-15M in loot, plus misc salvage (used to supply myself and corpmates with rigs). -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.03.24 07:50:00 - [14] Originally by: Tauranon Obviously with high skill characters, the benefits will begin to approach the straightline (16.5% improvement) that you are presuming,... I find even at higher dps numbers, the benefit is not straightline at all. Originally by: Liang Nuren Duo of Death (Guristas): 00:03:58 Guristas Spies: 00:09:22 Damsel in Distress: 00:18:51 Silence the Informant: 00:27:03 During this time (back to back missions) I pulled in an extra 10-15M in loot, plus misc salvage (used to supply myself and corpmates with rigs). -Liang Damsel alone is 14-18mil in loot, 5-6mil in salvage, that you are forced to leave there because you don't have the cargo capacity. Here I would say it's a nobrainer to come back for a quick cleanup. Though the rest of those missions are pretty much rubbish. Well, granted Silent isn't so bad, but it's not great either, so many frigs. I'll buy your argument of grabbing what is convenient while missioning, because I've thought and tried it myself. But only in a Marauder. I didn't do many tests, not enough to claim definitive answers, and none with 20km tractors, but I'm pretty sure the 40km tractor "ball o' wrecks" and coming back with a dedicated salvager is the optimal route for the few missions worth looting & salvaging. The rest, like your Duo and Spies, there it is of course better to grab what's convenient as you mission. If the CNR and Raven is the comparison, are you allowed a Marauder as dedicated looter/salvager in this scenario? Because it changes the picture. I guess not. If I come back with a salvager later, I don't come back for one mission worth of wrecks at a time, but only when I have about 4-9k m3 in loot waiting in space. Though there are some exceptions, of course, like when the mission is three jumps out, I'm certainly not going to jump back and forth twice from the agent station, so I have another salvager there. I usually decline all missions even two jumps out, as it feels like wasted time warping around so much, but not EA, nor storylines.
Mikal Drey Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.24 08:01:00 - [15] Originally by: Liang Nuren Ya the way I've been handling it is simply to ignore stuff that puts me over my cargo limit (select the best stuff out) or is out of range. have you considered cherrypicking ? if your collecting whatever is in range and up to your cargo limit you might want to consider cherrypikcing instead. if your collecting what is in range then remember that the raven doesnt suffer from transversal and you can simply AB/tractor to the better wrecks instead. a tactic ive often heard from friends is that they only salvage and loot BS wrecks. also if you run missions long enough and salvage long enough you know instintivly which ships will drop certain items. eg BS's dropping lots of circuits, asteroid based angels dropping trit bars named elite npc's droping higher meta modules etc etc some missions can get very predictable to what loot drops from which npc as well :) it just takes practice to learn what drops what. again eg. seven macleri will often drop a 1400mm the structures on one of the zor mission always dropped me 425mm rails.
GyokZoli Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.24 08:13:00 - [16] Originally by: Liang Nuren Hey folks. I have a question that I think challenges conventional wisdom: I think the lowly Raven might be a better mission runner/ISK maker than the CNR. Before you flame me, hear me out and realize I'm perfectly willing to see things your way and quite likely will agree if you throw any half-way reasoned argument at me. So it basically boils down to the argument that the CNR and Raven are essentially identical, but the CNR has an extra launcher slot. This launcher slot means that it gets 16.5% more launcher DPS (12.5% more total) and loses the ability to fit a tractor + salvager (or even dual tractor if that's more your bag). So it seems that the naive answer is that if salvage+loot makes up more than 12.5% of the mission's available (and easily reachable) ISK that the Raven would in fact make more isk than the CNR. Has anyone done a study or examined this? -Liang It's only true with low skills when you need a lot of time (like minutes) killing the battleships, so you have plenty of time to slowboat around and loot & salvage the wrecks. But if you have decent skills and the battleships go down in a matter of seconds then it is just a waste of time to loot with your Raven, since most of the wrecks are out of tractor beam range.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.03.24 09:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Liang Nuren Hey folks. I have a question that I think challenges conventional wisdom: I think the lowly Raven might be a better mission runner/ISK maker than the CNR. Before you flame me, hear me out and realize I'm perfectly willing to see things your way and quite likely will agree if you throw any half-way reasoned argument at me. So it basically boils down to the argument that the CNR and Raven are essentially identical, but the CNR has an extra launcher slot. This launcher slot means that it gets 16.5% more launcher DPS (12.5% more total) and loses the ability to fit a tractor + salvager (or even dual tractor if that's more your bag). So it seems that the naive answer is that if salvage+loot makes up more than 12.5% of the mission's available (and easily reachable) ISK that the Raven would in fact make more isk than the CNR. Has anyone done a study or examined this? -Liang You are not competing against CNR for loot/salvage in regular Raven in missions, but against dedicated salvage/loot ship (like destroyer with 4 tractors, 4 salvagers and full set of salvage rigs). You would lose out in isk/h even against Raven + dedicated looter when using Raven with Tractor/salvager not to mention same combination with CNR.
Shatner19	Posted - 2009.03.24 11:44:00 - [18] the way i see it is: higher dps corresponds to faster mission times, which is time saved. since you will be going solo, not dualboxing, the best way I see it, is run as many missions as possible within a time frame of 1hr45m. salvage all missions at the end before the wrecks disappears. the time saved from having higher dps would translate into possibly fitting in an extra mission or two. the loot and salvage from these extra mission definitely makes the CNR a much better isk crunching machine.
Mystafyre Caldari First Clan Corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.03.24 11:56:00 - [19] What I have learned in zero zero ratting is that you only loot and salvage BS size wrecks. Because it takes same time to loot and salvage small frigate wreck than BS sized wreck. And in missions you get even rarely salvage from frigate wrecks than in zero zero.
Mystafyre Caldari First Clan Corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.03.24 12:00:00 - [20] I must add that fitting your Golem with complex shield boosters (a-type meds or smalls) and salvage rigs and only salvaging the BS wrecks, you mostly are doing the job faster than with alt in salvaging boat.
vanBuskirk Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.24 12:58:00 - [21] Another option here (and not worth considering unless you already have the ship for another reason) is to do the "ball of wrecks" thing with an Orca loaded with nothing but tractors in high, after the mission. Few missions will require any travel at all, with this setup, and I cannot imagine running out of cargo space for loot in this ship! I have also seen the idea of dualboxing with an Orca, carrying a Hulk in the ship bay, in Recon 3 level 4. The idea is to take the Orca through the gate, along with the alt in a heavily-tanked ship, and mine the roids in the second room (of which there are a lot). It's great bait for the ninja salvagers, who tend to blow up rather well in room 1. Apparently, the smack in local is fun. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
Phoenix Torp Caldari Kingmakers	Posted - 2009.03.24 13:52:00 - [22] I have been thinking in fit 2 Tractors in the Raven. The Salvagers would be for the Cormorant as I would plan to get some of these days 3 Salvage Tackle's II. The T2 Salvage Parts are too much valuable to be understimated ------ Skills
Liang Nuren No Salvation Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.24 14:59:00 - [23] Originally by: Mystafyre I must add that fitting your Golem with complex shield boosters (a-type meds or smalls) and salvage rigs and only salvaging the BS wrecks, you mostly are doing the job faster than with alt in salvaging boat. Yeah, this I guess is what I was going for. I guess I'll buckle down and buy a Golem. I didn't really wanna because I mission to make ISK - not spend it! -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2009.03.24 16:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Liang Nuren Has anyone done a study or examined this? -Liang fit the cnr to kill and the golem to salvage with. you can get a golem with 40 km tractors and a 3200 m cargo bay though that's overkill now in most cases.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.03.24 17:06:00 - [25] Originally by: Ehranavaar fit the cnr to kill and the golem to salvage with. you can get a golem with 40 km tractors and a 3200 m cargo bay though that's overkill now in most cases. Not really. I never use below 4200m3 on the Kronos, though sometimes I need more space, up to 8k.
Brian Kith Elite Underworld Special Forces OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Mystafyre What I have learned in zero zero ratting is that you only loot and salvage BS size wrecks. Because it takes same time to loot and salvage small frigate wreck than BS sized wreck. And in missions you get even rarely salvage from frigate wrecks than in zero zero. You cannot, in any way, shape or form, compare null sec ratting to mission running. They are completely, totally different. When you loot / salvage a single BS wreck in a 0.0 belt, you get the equivalent of 2-3 mission battleships. I see 10+ items on every single null sec rat battleship . . . I can't remember seeing more than 5 on any mission battleship, and it's not uncommon for mission BS's to drop NOTHING. Which doesn't even take bounty into consideration, just loot and salvage.
GGjita	Posted - 2009.03.25 05:44:00 - [27] I havn't run the numbers but I'm reasonably sure that your question acctually has 2 answers. 1. If your raven does LESS than 400dps without counting drones. ----- In this case i would say that running the CNR would be faster due to the point that there are a lot of NPC's that sport reasonable tanks (say 125-175 dps tank). So adding the 16.5% dps by running the CNR with prolly help you finish the mission 20-25% faster. 2. If your raven does MORE than 400dps without counting drones. ----- This is the case where i assume you lie in Liang. And once again I feel like there are 2 answers to this question. 2a. If you are just running stupid little missions that you don't really plan on salvaging and are just doing to get through them. Examples for me are: The Score, Massive attack, and Duo of Death. In these cases i would say just run the CNR with 1 tractor and cherry pick any loot you can from some of the better wrecks while killing but there are not worth the time to salvage and most of the stuff is crappy anyway. 2b. If you plan on salvaging and looting everything (Blockade, Pirate invasion, AE are good examples). Here i think running the normal raven might acctually be a good idea since with 2 tractors it shouldn't be too hard to make your ball of wrecks and will prolly end up saving you some time on the salvage. If I had to pick either a raven or CNR to do all missions though i would go with the CNR because I feel that in a lot of places it is just going to give a better mission/salvage time or in the places that raven does have a better mission/salvage time i do not feel that edge is going to be enough to warrent having both of these ships rigged and sitting in your mission hub ready to go. You did say that you ran missions to make money not to spend it and i would have to say that the slight edge the raven would give in making money would take a long time to make up for.

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