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Fox Ogmo
Net 7
The Last Brigade
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Posted - 2009.03.26 14:09:00 -
[1]
80 isk the lot, or nearest offer...
Seriously, wtf?
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Fox Ogmo
Net 7
The Last Brigade
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Posted - 2009.03.26 14:42:00 -
[2]
Here's the thing, I enjoy probing, really, I do, I enjoy the geometrical puzzle of it all. But at the moment it seems that if I want to scout out a system for sites, I now have to bring nearly everything to 100% and get a bookmark to avoid probing it down again. This means that it takes a few hours to survey an entire system (previously I could have told you the quantity of every type of site within 30 mins with a fair certainty, although not having have pinned every one).
Therefore, by the time I've finished probing now, it's time for me to log off, what fun is that? I'm happy to pass on the locations to corpmates in other timezones for them to deal with, but I just don't think exploration should be quite as full time a job as this...
Even the toughest of sites would take less than an hour to probe pre-AP, and at least we knew that they weren't all going to turn out to be grav.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.03.26 14:49:00 -
[3]
Thats good. Scaning was way too easy and way too fast.
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Wedgetail
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Posted - 2009.03.26 14:54:00 -
[4]
I can understand where fox is coming from with this having 'lived' in wormhole space since a few days after apocrypha's release. Trying to scan a system to find specific signals was only really possible using deep space probes; for example when we encountered random pirates entering our system and needed to find where they entered the system from in a hurry, or where checking for any new signals that may have appeared in the system.
seeing the patch notes I figured 'yeah scan strength decrease ok I'll manage' but i didn't expect the probes to behave as poorly as they did to the point where it's now more productive to use the core scanners to identify signals on a system wide scale (previously next to useless for the task when compared to deep space) than it is to use the more skill intensive deep space variants.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.03.26 15:14:00 -
[5]
Oh man...no, no, no! Say it isn't so!
WTF happened to testing on SiSi first and letting players have a real go (seems it was there but for a VERY short time)? What happened to numerous user comments in this forum about this beforehand talking about the horror of such a change? Why have testing at all if player comments are so clearly ignored?
WTF is the deal with such a hack-and-slash approach to the point the Deep Space probes actually suck ass now?
I agree the DSPs needed some nerf. In particular they should have had their ability to pin ships so easily adjusted.
But this? This isn't a tweak. It's a f'ing hatchet job. Particularly with no change to the hell that it is to find particular things in W-Space remaining as it is.
Do the people making these changes actually PLAY EVE and try this?
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Argendta
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Posted - 2009.03.26 15:39:00 -
[6]
Well, I understand the desire to make it harder to scan things in w-space, but how about making them at least a tiny amount stronger? Say, strength 8, instead of 5? That wouldn't make them uberstrong, as they were before, but at least it would make some token benefit of training astrometrics to lvl5.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.03.26 15:39:00 -
[7]
I guess they never intended for you to playing an entirely different game after training Astrometrics from IV to V. Though they really should do something about the hassle of sorting search results in systems with many sigs close together. I'm sure everyone agrees that it's an un-fun PITA.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Wedgetail
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Posted - 2009.03.26 15:48:00 -
[8]
CCP took a good system for filtering site types (dsp probes) and stuffed it up simply because they found ships to well; the simple soloution would have been to remove the ship scanning ability of dsp's; old system used to take 10-15 minutes to accurately pin a useful site using DSP's (to a distance close enough to 'land' on it) now it seems we'll be lucky if t3 hits the market shelves at all as no one will have the time to pin the sites let alone gun down the sleepers. (provided the radar/mag signals can be found at all with core probes they aren't the easiest signals to locate even with the old dsp's.
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Fox Ogmo
Net 7
The Last Brigade
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Posted - 2009.03.26 16:49:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Wedgetail
CCP took a good system for filtering site types (dsp probes) and stuffed it up simply because they found ships to well; the simple soloution would have been to remove the ship scanning ability of dsp's;
I think the issue was that deepspace probes needed to work against players' deep safes. This meant not removing ships from them.
It might have been better to introduce a fourth probe type, one somewhat similar to DSP's before but without ship scanning ability, and one that's a long range combat probe, a bit like DSP's now, but not sites.
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Wedgetail
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Posted - 2009.03.26 16:54:00 -
[10]
ship scanner probes could have been used for that role with a few simple chages. I see the issue though in making the DSP's powerful enough to find those safes at long range they made them hugely powerful at short range. I still feel that this doesn't justify thier complete and utter 'destruction' as a useful scanning tool
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.03.26 17:06:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 26/03/2009 17:06:41
Originally by: Fox Ogmo
I think the issue was that deepspace probes needed to work against players' deep safes. This meant not removing ships from them.
It might have been better to introduce a fourth probe type, one somewhat similar to DSP's before but without ship scanning ability, and one that's a long range combat probe, a bit like DSP's now, but not sites.
Why all that fuss though?
Make DSPs able to "see" ships in system at any range but completely unable to pinpoint them. Maybe narrow it down some with them but then you must switch to Combat Probes to get it pinpointed.
In that way the DSP acts like an old multispec (with a bit added) in saying, "Something is out there...vaguely about [this] area." Now you have that deep spot area sufficiently just breakout the combat probes and get it pinned.
Otherwise leave DSPs as they were as regards probing for signatures (or maybe a bit weaker but largely the same).
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.26 17:12:00 -
[12]
There's no problem here. There could have been some ways to give DSPs some other functionality without being totally overpowered, but CCP doesn't think exploration/probing is balanced for probes stronger than what we have in core/combat. Fine, IMO.
Quote:
80 isk the lot, or nearest offer...
Seriously, wtf?
This is why you should read patch notes before they go live. Sold mine a couple days ago.
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Miranda Cho
Caldari
Fearghul Corp
The Dominion Empire
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Posted - 2009.03.26 17:16:00 -
[13]
Alternately, if the devs really want us to only explore with Core probes, eliminate or upgrade the bad gravimetric sites. I've got no problem with chasing down contacts, it's what I do for fun when I'm bored, for that matter, but it's somewhat disheartening to scan down a Perimeter or Frontier grav site and know that there are precisely no circumstances under which the minerals present there will be worth mining compared to the highsec system you left to explore the wormhole in the first place. I don't want scanning to be super-easy-mode, but what I'd like is for wormhole targets to be at least theoretically worth the time to locate and exploit. There aren't any circumstances where mining Pyroxes in 0.0 is a worthwhile activity.
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Fox Ogmo
Net 7
The Last Brigade
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Posted - 2009.03.26 17:40:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
This is why you should read patch notes before they go live. Sold mine a couple days ago.
Heh, not really bothered, I only have 8, that's all I've needed (recall probes ftw). I was well aware of the coming nerf, even before the patch notes, having seen the changes on sisi, I just hoped that some dev, somewhere, would reconsider this change before it went live.
Originally by: Miranda Cho
These sites have all the risk of W-space (Sleeper NPCs, getting t****d if you screw up, PC pirates since it's 0.0) with none of the rewards.
I've always enjoyed the risk as much as the ISK, I just want to get to find this risk and have time left over to engage it...
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Jack Snack
Caldari
Polish Task Forces
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Posted - 2009.03.26 17:58:00 -
[15]
Nerf the probes - sure, but:
Boost the chance for spawning Faction/Officer NPCs :D
And of course increase the chance for spawn containers to spawn something valuable...
Never outnumbered, never outgunned |
Frobos
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Posted - 2009.03.26 19:54:00 -
[16]
I have been wondering why CCP did not just modify the signatures of targets. Instead of messing with the probes, why not just make a ship harder for a probe to lock onto? And excuse the use of "signatures" for lack of a better word.....what I am trying to say is the value in the equations relating to ships themselves and how strong of a signal they return to the probe.
This seems more appropriate as it would only affect the items that are supposedly real easy to find (i.e. ships).
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.26 20:56:00 -
[17]
DSPs were massively overpowered at finding sigs, too. They were bugged. CCP forgot to account for base scan range when setting their strength.
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Potrero
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.26 23:18:00 -
[18]
Glad I didn't sell that wormhole gas. Maybe it'll be worth something now.
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Futuristic Eagle
League of Gentlemen
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.03.27 04:51:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
DSPs were massively overpowered at finding sigs, too. They were bugged. CCP forgot to account for base scan range when setting their strength.
Not true, DSPs could only ever get them most of them above 25% easily, and only at 2 au range. For the more difficult ones, you needed core probes to scan down.
(Note : above image may actually be Empress Jamyl) |
Kyra Felann
Gallente
Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.03.27 05:05:00 -
[20]
Maybe we need something similar to multi-spectral probes. Something that's good for finding out what kind of signatures there are but useless for actually pinpointing a hit.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.03.27 05:10:00 -
[21]
they replaced combat probes though - they start at 20 str and 0.5AU. DSP with 20str and 4AU were a bit too much
well, not entirely: they didnt replace them fully - deviation plays a role even at 100%, contrary to the old system. i dont even land on 0km to an extended sabre with combat probes (or 2.5km for that matter).
so while i can see why there had to be a little tweak, this one was just based on uninformed "in line" thinking. 10str, 4AU and whatever deviation would have come with it - and that's just one of the least creative ideas -.-
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putting the gist back into logistics |
Ecky X
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.03.27 05:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Futuristic Eagle
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
DSPs were massively overpowered at finding sigs, too. They were bugged. CCP forgot to account for base scan range when setting their strength.
Not true, DSPs could only ever get them most of them above 25% easily, and only at 2 au range. For the more difficult ones, you needed core probes to scan down.
With a sisters launcher, sisters DSP and grav rigs, you could get 100% on an interceptor w/o covops bonuses. I rather enjoyed this, but it was a bit overboard.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.03.27 06:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ecky X
Originally by: Futuristic Eagle
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
DSPs were massively overpowered at finding sigs, too. They were bugged. CCP forgot to account for base scan range when setting their strength.
Not true, DSPs could only ever get them most of them above 25% easily, and only at 2 au range. For the more difficult ones, you needed core probes to scan down.
With a sisters launcher, sisters DSP and grav rigs, you could get 100% on an interceptor w/o covops bonuses. I rather enjoyed this, but it was a bit overboard.
too bad there was this "bug" where sister DSP only had 20 strength, not 22. so allow me to question the value of your post; MWD'ing ceptors, certainly - the *6 bonus makes it rather easy. but it's safe to say you were not able to kill it.
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putting the gist back into logistics |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.03.27 07:39:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 27/03/2009 07:42:00
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
too bad there was this "bug" where sister DSP only had 20 strength, not 22. so allow me to question the value of your post; MWD'ing ceptors, certainly - the *6 bonus makes it rather easy. but it's safe to say you were not able to kill it.
Too bad ceptors dont get *6 signature radius from MWD anymore since the QR patch, so allow me to question the value of your post  (more so since sisters launchers get a bonus to strength if you dont know)
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.03.27 09:14:00 -
[25]
i stand slightly corrected  it's still +200% on lvl4 though, the sisters launcher adds a whooping 5% and the inty remains unkillably fast for any ship capable of an expanded launcher 
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putting the gist back into logistics |
Miilla
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Posted - 2009.03.27 11:09:00 -
[26]
You can keep your deep space probes, they are useless since the nerf lol. Scrap metal.
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Wedgetail
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Posted - 2009.03.29 13:02:00 -
[27]
After taking a bit mroe of a look i've noticed that the current deep space probes perform almost identically to the combat probes - (they return a first scan of a mess of red and nothing else) ^^combat probes are also finding signiatures not just ships.
So now we have 1 bad signiature finding probe that any newb can use, the avergage core probe which again any scanning newb can use and the reward for training the for the 'advanced' probe is a replica of the bad signature finding combat probe with a longer range (which is pointless as a scan return at that range would be a huge red bubble not something you can dispatch combat probes to for a point scan)
have CCP considered that in combat there is no time to mess around pinning said ships? <--ships don't sit still they move around making a difficult job harder.
My understanding was the point of using probes to locate ships was to be able to find an oncomming threat and or locate stragglers after a fight ^^ at the speeds the current probes function this is no longer possible; unless of course you ALREADY KNOW where the ships are going to be eliminating the real need for probes. <-not so much a problem before wormholes and covert portals.
CCP have effectively killed the whole 'hunter-killer' idea and any ability to detect incomming threats when playing a defensive role. <--this is especially important if the opposing side is using a black ops + jump portal and cyno in thier attack as there is no other way to find them.
I'm gonna end it here for now by saying that ships SHOULD be able to be found and found quickly - it's up to fleet commanders to be ready for this eventuality and equip thier fleets to be able to deal with being found by surveillance ships.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.29 18:30:00 -
[28]
Speaking as someone who has tried probing down people after a fight...it's very possible, and even easy if you know what you're doing. It's only impossible if they are warping between safespots, in which case the old probes were just as useless as the new ones.
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