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Mission Turn in Cans

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Fyzikz Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.27 00:13:00 - [1] It should be an exploit/criminal action for a character to scan into an active mission dungeon and ninja loot the mission reward in order to ransom it back to the character doing the mission. This makes it so the player must either decline the mission after completing it within the rules of the game or pay the ransom to turn in the mission. Should the Mission Runner take action against the thief (pop him) it is a criminal action in high sec and concord will respond by destroying the mission runner's ship. Since Ninja Looters run in cheap frigs and mission runners go in tech 2 or faction fitted BS's. This is not an affordable action for the mission runner, nor is it likely they can destroy the frigate before concord arrives. Mission turn in cans should be linked via property rights to the owner of the mission. This would trigger aggression of the thief against the mission runner and allow the missioner (and possibly their fleet/corporation/alliance) to respond accordingly. Ninja looting/Mission Ransoming is not a balanced practice since it is virtually impossible for the mission runner to react to the crimes and the current in game mechanics actually protect the criminal. This makes it the definition of an exploit and should be stopped and/or fixed. Secondly I recommend this change to Salvaging. Salvage should have a time limit (say 1 or 2 hours) before an unfleeted non allied character can salvage/loot the wreck. Once the time has passed they should be allowed for open looting/salvaging. These property rights shouldn't call Concord, should only be considered the same as can flipping. The character with the property rights should be allowed to forgo those rights but inviting and unallied (not corpmate/alliance mate or coalition mate) character into their fleet. Also being logged off for more then 15 minutes should clear property rights. This would allow the characters that salvage primarily to continue to do so and still allow mission runners to defend thier salvage rights against those who enjoy thievery in the game while maintaining balance to the game as well as law and order to high sec for those characters that prefer to play in the secure regions of Eve.
Fyzikz Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.27 01:30:00 - [2] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Salvaging is a miniprofession, NOT just extra cash for your already overpowered missions. You have no "salvage rights", a floating wreck field is to salvagers as an asteroid field is to miners. I agree it is a mini profession.. as is salvaging at sea in international waters. But even they have to follow international laws and if they don't deal with the consequences should the owner of the wreck wish to enforce their legal right. Perhaps just make the changes to high sec salvage since there is no law in low/null sec as designed.
Fyzikz Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.27 03:05:00 - [3] Originally by: Kahega Amielden a) Real life analogies suck. In real life, if the military hired you to fight off an invading army, they wouldn't allow you to kill someone picking through the wreckage. Therefore, looting should not flag anyone. See how easy that turns around? b) Salvaging is a profession. It's like mining, except it uses wrecks instead of rocks. You have NO CLAIM to the wrecks at all. You are no more entitled to salvage the wrecks than a miner is to mine from a specific roid. a) The military cordons off the entire city and enforces martial law keeping all looters off the street. All the wreckage is that militaries to go through first, and yes, they do use deadly force. b.) 1. With this idea loot off the wrecked ships (IE modules) shouldn't flag a character for stealing, but it does. And Anyone should be able to tractor wrecks, but only the owner of the wreck or his fleet/corpmates can. 2. the mission and npc's were spawned for me to kill in my mission making the wrecks in my dungeon mine. I'm not asking to put salvagers out of business.. just put the same loot rules that exists with the wreck cans. Salvagers could still get their salvage off them. If this isn't agreeable then make dead space dungeons locked out to anyone not fleeted with the mission holder until the mission is turned in. That will stop the turn in ransoming and the salvage argument.. If the mission is turned in and the wrecks are still there then the salvager can probe them out and salvage them and take the wreck cans as well. Of course.. Salvagers could do their own missions..
Fyzikz Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.27 23:25:00 - [4] Edited by: Fyzikz on 27/03/2009 23:26:08 Ok.. Off the Secondary Topic already.. what about the ability to steal the mission turn in objective from the can.. (IE Heron Crew in World's Collide) then ransom it. This should be an illegal action since the mission runner was highered to retrieve the mission item by the mission giver who's corp owns said item. It is virtually impossible to defend against such an action since it doens't turn the offender flashy red as it is not seen as an act of aggression. As I said.. the salvage part was a secondary not and I defer to the other post in this section about adding risk to salvaging, its a good idea. The main focus is stopping mission turn ins from being stolen by non fleeted persons, or don't make it a security hit and concord offense to shoot the little bastard that stole it.
Fyzikz Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.28 16:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Anton Cyldragen so you are saying that it is unfair that a pirate stole a desired object from an encounter against pirates... role play for a mo and think of missions as what they are described as in the text then wonder if its possible that the thing you are looking for has been taken from the can floating in space by someone other than yourself and that it is your fault for not wanting it more then they do. or think of it like this "what claim do you have to that object? what makes it yours rather than that persons? just because someone asked you to go get it makes it yours? who's fault is it if you fail to acquire the desired object? ok.. rp for a Mo.. a member of a corp that ninja salvages and ninja loots is related to serpentis how?
Fyzikz Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.28 16:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: Simplest solution: if a player activates an acceleration gate, and is not in fleet with the player who was given the mission, they get flagged to that player/fleet/corp. I mean lets face it, there is no legit reason to be in someone else's mission area without permission. Of course there is. If someone's ratting in a belt, and you warp in your mining ship to start mining...should the miner get flagged to the ratter? Of course not. The miner COULD start taking loot or try to attack the ratter, but in all likelyhood he's just going to sit there and mine the asteroids. Given that ratting is about the bounties and the loot from the kills, a miner does not inconvenience him in the least. Ratter moves on, everyone's happy. A salvager is there to harvest a juicy resource that happens to be lying around. It's not yours because you "saw it first", and it's certainly not yours just because you created it as a BYPRODUCT of your missionrunning. your point is irrelevant since there is no acceleration gate to get to an asteroid belt that is beaconed for eneryone in the game to see
Fyzikz Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.28 16:11:00 - [7] Originally by: Metalcali Originally by: Fyzikz Edited by: Fyzikz on 27/03/2009 23:26:08 Ok.. Off the Secondary Topic already.. what about the ability to steal the mission turn in objective from the can.. (IE Heron Crew in World's Collide) then ransom it. This should be an illegal action since the mission runner was highered to retrieve the mission item by the mission giver who's corp owns said item. It is virtually impossible to defend against such an action since it doens't turn the offender flashy red as it is not seen as an act of aggression. As I said.. the salvage part was a secondary not and I defer to the other post in this section about adding risk to salvaging, its a good idea. The main focus is stopping mission turn ins from being stolen by non fleeted persons, or don't make it a security hit and concord offense to shoot the little bastard that stole it. Again, the worst that should happen is a lower standing between the player and the npc corp, if anything, if someone else takes the item needed to complete the mission. There is no reason they should go aggro to you if they killed it, it's just an intervention. Now, maybe some special missions could be that way, say in low sec or something, to help encourage a greater risk and all. Also, how are you going to say that when you destroy some other persons ship that is now your property? If anything it would be the remains of the owners/corp, not your, or to the first person to lay claim too it. By you not salvaging said destroyed ship, or having a buddy follow you to do just that, then you run the risk of not claiming the item and losing it. 1. you quoted me saying off salvaging I was done talkign about it and conceded the point and not worth tanking.. but still rehashed it.. why? 2. a cov ops frigate didn't kill the bs's guarding the mission loot can... you have to kill the mission ships in the room to get the can to unlock.. he sat near the can stealthed, obviously unknown by the mission runners (the point of stealth.) uncloaked and grabbed the mission drop once the last ship was destroyed before the mission runners could grab get into the can. He did nothing to unlock the can he killed nothing.. seeing as he has to happen to unlock the can he should not be able to loot it without being flagged criminal at the very least. He is after all stealing from the corp that enlisted the mission runner to retrieve the item and bequethed rights to that mission runner in order to retrieve it.
Fyzikz Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.29 14:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Anton Cyldragen Originally by: Fyzikz Originally by: Anton Cyldragen so you are saying that it is unfair that a pirate stole a desired object from an encounter against pirates... role play for a mo and think of missions as what they are described as in the text then wonder if its possible that the thing you are looking for has been taken from the can floating in space by someone other than yourself and that it is your fault for not wanting it more then they do. or think of it like this "what claim do you have to that object? what makes it yours rather than that persons? just because someone asked you to go get it makes it yours? who's fault is it if you fail to acquire the desired object? ok.. rp for a Mo.. a member of a corp that ninja salvages and ninja loots is related to serpentis how? the relation is that he had scan probes and wanted the item from the serpentis base more than you did It wasnt' a serpentis base.. it was mission dead space... read the whole thread dont just post one 1 sentence in the middle
Fyzikz Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.29 14:43:00 - [9] Originally by: Imertu Solientai OH GOD! NOT ANOTHER ONE OF THESE THREADS! I think it should be an instant 2 week forum ban to ANYONE who posts another crap thread whining about ninja salvaging. There are 3 THREE of these threads on the front page. LEARN TO READ! Read the thread.. it isn't salvaging.....
Fyzikz Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.29 14:46:00 - [10] Originally by: Anton Cyldragen accept that the desired object is not yours till you take it, missions are not some magic place where everything is yours. and i was responding specifically to your op not anyone else or anything else. the desired object belongs to the corp that enlisted the capsuleer to recover, thus granting legal right to the capsuleer to take custody and deliver the item. Dead Space was originally designed to give missioners a place to complete their missions without having it camped by guys like this thief. again.. please read the thread...

Fyzikz Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:20:00 - [11] Originally by: Anton Cyldragen Originally by: Fyzikz Originally by: Anton Cyldragen accept that the desired object is not yours till you take it, missions are not some magic place where everything is yours. and i was responding specifically to your op not anyone else or anything else. the desired object belongs to the corp that enlisted the capsuleer to recover, thus granting legal right to the capsuleer to take custody and deliver the item. Dead Space was originally designed to give missioners a place to complete their missions without having it camped by guys like this thief. again.. please read the thread... still don't agree with you mainly because i think missions are bloody stupid and shouldn't provide as much income as they do. but from what i can remember the corp giving you the mission to recover something more often than not is trying to steal something from another corp OR the desired object is like 10 units of oil... Or there is a broken down ship that is in the middle of a war between to pirate factions (since this is specifically about world's collide) .... dude.. if you have nothign constructive to say or add to the conversation other then you hate missioning then your just trolling.. thanks for the attempt.. but constructive criticism and opinion only..
Fyzikz Amarr	Posted - 2009.04.01 00:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Originally by: Anton Cyldragen still don't agree with you mainly because i think missions are bloody stupid and shouldn't provide as much income as they do. Sooooo because you don't like mission runners, you think CCP should continue to allow you to impose your game play style on them? And the mission runner shouldn't be able to do anything about it? I wish more of you were at least honest about you intentions. And before any more of you morons pull outsome salvage reply, we are talking about mission turn in cans. Thank you, someone can read

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