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Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
   |
Posted - 2009.03.27 11:35:00 -
[1]
I'm posting this proposal for discussion and peer review prior to an expected offering within the next few days.
Please let me know if you'd be interested, if you have any conerns with the plan, ideas for improvement, etc.
Thanks.
********** DO NOT SEND ANY MONEY, THIS IS A DISCUSSION **********
Overview:
EMMA is a well known and popular tool to assist traders, investors and, to a lesser extent, manufacturers. Essentially, it offers a database system to store financial data that is retrieved from the eve API. This data can then be used to generate reports and run a variety of different helper tools.
Since version 1.0 of EMMA, released at the end of Nov 08, I have charged a license fee of 100 mil to be able to use the program. This is then supplemented with income from specific developments that are requested and paid for by a particular user.
Around the start of March 09, I decided to take a break from both EMMA nad Eve in general. Since then there has been virtually zero development on the project. I found two people willing to try taking over but one decided they could not commit enough time to it and the other seems to have lost interest or thrown in the towel.
This IPO aims to raise cash that will be placed in a corporate account and used to pay developers a fixed monthly wage.
Investment Detail:
The corp will have 10,000 shares. 2,000 of these will be held by the CEO (i.e. me) in return for the startup cash sum of 2 bil isk.
The rest of the initial investment will be raised from a dutch auction of the remaining 8,000 shares starting at 1 mil isk each.
Shares will be valued according to the NAV of the company, reported monthly.
Single investors are limited to 2,000 shares.
Return will be variable. For details, see Expected Return.
There will be a permenant buyback in place at 90% of NAV.
The company will be listed on the RESX and EGSE exchanges if possible.
Developer Detail:
Developers will be paid a monthly salary of 1 bil isk at the end of each month. (Pro-rated if the developer joins or leaves the team halfway through a month)
If the developer contributes nothing or very little for a particular month then they will only recieve 500 mil isk. The next month they will be 'fired' unless they start contributing.
Initially, I will be looking for two developers. Note that you do not need to be some sort of .NET guru. I was taught Java at uni and mainly use a language called 'Uniface' at work. I've only ever been on one, very basic, .NET course so I'm in no way an expert.
Corporate Structure:
The only paid employees will be the developers. I will oversee things as CEO, at least for the beginning, but I won't be taking a management fee or a developer's salary.
The corporate account will hold the starting capital and will recieve license payments from customers as well as payments for specific developments. At the end of the month, developers will be paid, shareholders will then vote on the size of the dividend they will recieve from several options. These options will be decided by the CEO (me) and will be based on the size of any remaining profit, expected future expenses, NAV growth target, etc.
The corporate account might also be used to purchase other services such as advertising.
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Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
|
Posted - 2009.03.27 11:36:00 -
[2]
Expected Return:
As you can see from the table below, revenue from licenses has been fairly consistent:
Dec 08 - 4.1 bil
Jan 09 - 3.9 bil
Feb 09 - 4.8 bil
Mar 09 - 3.4 bil
Assuming 2 developers being paid 1 bil each, this would leave approx 2 bil profit each month. If this was split 50/50 between reinvestment and dividends and shares are sold @ 1 mil isk each then the dividend payout would be 10% of the initial investment per month. Note that NAV would also increase by approx 10% per month.
Clearly, this is beyond the return offered by many investments and does not even take into account income from bespoke developments. However, license payments may decline so this level of return can not be guaranteed, indeed, it is perfectly possible for this to LOSE money.
Now for the obvious question, Why am I not just sitting back and enjoying the cash rolling in?
Several reasons for this.
1) I've little need of more ISK. I'm at the point now where I could pay for GTCs for the next several years, Fly T2 ships all the time and still have plenty left over.
2) I want to detatch myself from EMMA. I want it to be a stand-alone entity that can continue if I leave the game.
3) I've always been interested in the IPO side of the game. This is somthing I want to do to see if it works and where it will go.
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Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.03.27 12:13:00 -
[3]
This is interesting Ambo, if anything this could be the model that future software development |
Ji Sama
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Posted - 2009.03.27 12:21:00 -
[4]
i think its a very good idea, would be interested in investing thats for sure...
This is a signature not related to EVE |
Krathos Morpheus
Gallente
Legion Infernal
Wildly Inappropriate.
|
Posted - 2009.03.27 12:33:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Krathos Morpheus on 27/03/2009 12:34:23
 Originally by: Ambo
I want to detatch myself from EMMA. I want it to be a stand-alone entity that can continue if I leave the game.
Your idea is very interesting, but I think that it depends on who is going to run the project. Who is going to run this if you leave the game? Are you planning on detatch yourself from this IPO or just from the development of EMMA? Who is going to contract and assest developers? Will have the investors the vote on who and how many devs are going to be hired?
EVE Knowledge |
Snasty
Caldari
The Hippies
House of Mercury
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Posted - 2009.03.27 12:41:00 -
[6]
Bassed on the information recieved so far my interest is there as would be my investiment were you to go ahead with this.
I'm equally interested in the answers to the points raised by the previous post.
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-=Snasty, short for Shagnasty ever since the GM's in SWG made me change it...!=- |
Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.27 12:50:00 -
[7]
Good questions.
Essentially, I'd be wanting to hand over the job of CEO to someone else at some point in the future. Possibly a developer on the project but it could be someone else.
Whoever holds the title of CEO will always be the person to decide on hiring of new devs, determine possible dividend payments, etc. They will also be the one with access to corporate funds. (Perhaps via an ebank account with some special clauses that would come into effect if CEO disappears, etc. need to discuss the possibility and details of this with ebank)
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Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Estel Arador
Minmatar
Estel Arador Corp Services
|
Posted - 2009.03.27 13:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ambo
This IPO aims to raise cash that will be placed in a corporate account and used to pay developers a fixed monthly wage.
I'm confused.
You receive ~4B in payments monthly and expect that to stay at that level in the future.
You're projecting 2B in expenses monthly at first and perhaps more later.
Now the plan you have is an interesting proposal, but it seems to me you do not need the investor's cash to pay the developers. What will you use it for?
FREE! jumpclone service - NOW 192 locations! |
Taryn Ceridwen
Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2009.03.27 13:28:00 -
[9]
I use EMMA and love it. I think this is a very interesting and different premise for an IPO and I would definitely be interested in acquiring shares.
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2009.03.27 13:34:00 -
[10]
At one point I had thought about putting a bunch of isk in EBank as a trust fund for future development. Or perhaps asking them to start a software division.
But this is pretty cool and if it goes live you can count me in for 2000 shares.
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Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.27 13:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Ambo
This IPO aims to raise cash that will be placed in a corporate account and used to pay developers a fixed monthly wage.
I'm confused.
You receive ~4B in payments monthly and expect that to stay at that level in the future.
You're projecting 2B in expenses monthly at first and perhaps more later.
Now the plan you have is an interesting proposal, but it seems to me you do not need the investor's cash to pay the developers. What will you use it for?
You're totally right. *I* don't need the cash and could fund this entirely on my own.
However, I don't want this to be tied too closely to me. This is really about putting together a framework within which the EMMA project can continue regardless of who is leading it.
The way I'm doing this is to make sure that more people care about keeping EMMA alive on a personal level. (i.e. the investors and the developers)
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Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Armoured C
Gallente
Armoured Investments
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Posted - 2009.03.27 13:49:00 -
[12]
i think i should be able to afford one share LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
count me in
WARNING: ANGRY AND LOOKING FOR BLOOD
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SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2009.03.27 14:04:00 -
[13]
While this is uncharted waters for IPOs, and one that is interesting with a real possibility of LOSS. I have to ask why use an IPO for this.
We are talking 10b here, why not take a loan or even a simple line of credit any one of the banks offer (I believe they all offer them)?
1b Per month per DEV may seem like a lot to some but this is personal time here, and time outside of EVE. With first hand experience in paying Developers for EVE Software, the one major issue is the developer starts to take on a "I do this for work" personality rather then "I do this for fun". So what happens is the developer gets slower releasing updates because it's cutting into the personal time more so then game time.
Keep in mind that unless they are Mining in high-sec or doing some AFK hauling they are playing EVE, which means they are not working on the program. This is something to consider, 1) Job Time, 2) Personal Time, 3) EVE Time, 4) EMMA Development Time. When you start paying Developers they squeeze another time block into their day.
I bring this up, because it's probably the main reason why EBANK's Exchange has take over a year to almost get deployed. It was a massive project which also meant reprogramming the EBANK software. So it's on a much larger scale then EMMA, however it's an example of what happens when the Devs start to feel worked rather then viewing it as a hobby.
You'll want to be careful of that and maybe it would be better if you enforce limits on development per week, or maybe break down the development into groups like - Work on this until it's done, then work on that. Breaking up the project into much smaller blocks and having a project manager (you) allocate those blocks. This will increase the sense of accomplishment the developers will need as the IPO goes on.
Amarr for Life |
The Isz
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Posted - 2009.03.27 14:28:00 -
[14]
First off, I want to say I'm a big fan of EMMA and have been using it for some time. Very nice application.
In RL I run a web development business and have for 15 years. That means I live (and die) by the billable hours of my staff. Based on that I would offer one suggestion to your plan, Ambo. Rather than offer a flat rate per month per coder, instead set them up as actual employees/sub-contractors.
The reason being, at a flat rate there is little incentive for the coder to do more than the bare minimum (as set by you). I'd also add that the minimum contribution you've set could be a bit ambiguous. If the coder only spent 1.5 hours last month working on the project, but that 1.5 hours fixed a major issue...is that a significant contribution?
Instead, I'd pay them by the hour. Perhaps they could use something like MiningBuddy to keep track of their time. That way your coders have incentive and, if you find a real jem of an employee, you can always turn things over to him/her at that point as you transition out.
Whatever path you take, I do hope EMMA continues on and wish you the best of luck!
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Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.27 14:30:00 -
[15]
Originally by: SencneS
While this is uncharted waters for IPOs, and one that is interesting with a real possibility of LOSS. I have to ask why use an IPO for this.
We are talking 10b here, why not take a loan or even a simple line of credit any one of the banks offer (I believe they all offer them)?
1b Per month per DEV may seem like a lot to some but this is personal time here, and time outside of EVE. With first hand experience in paying Developers for EVE Software, the one major issue is the developer starts to take on a "I do this for work" personality rather then "I do this for fun". So what happens is the developer gets slower releasing updates because it's cutting into the personal time more so then game time.
Keep in mind that unless they are Mining in high-sec or doing some AFK hauling they are playing EVE, which means they are not working on the program. This is something to consider, 1) Job Time, 2) Personal Time, 3) EVE Time, 4) EMMA Development Time. When you start paying Developers they squeeze another time block into their day.
I bring this up, because it's probably the main reason why EBANK's Exchange has take over a year to almost get deployed. It was a massive project which also meant reprogramming the EBANK software. So it's on a much larger scale then EMMA, however it's an example of what happens when the Devs start to feel worked rather then viewing it as a hobby.
You'll want to be careful of that and maybe it would be better if you enforce limits on development per week, or maybe break down the development into groups like - Work on this until it's done, then work on that. Breaking up the project into much smaller blocks and having a project manager (you) allocate those blocks. This will increase the sense of accomplishment the developers will need as the IPO goes on.
As noted above, I could stump up the cash myself. The reason for the investment is that I want to make sure more people have an interest in the project being successfull.
Also, the 10 bil will act as a buffer to smooth out the income from licenses. It's been fairly steady so far but it's far from guaranteed. I guess it's a kind of security for the developers that there is a pot of money from which they will get paid before anyone else gets a look in.
You make a good point about it becoming a job instead of a hobby. That's partly why I put the 500 mil / month clause in there. It allows the developer to take a month off (for holiday, RL issues, whatever) but still get paid and come back to rejoin the team later.
Also, if you're being paid 1 bil/month then you might no longer need to haul, mine, mission, etc. 
--------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.27 14:39:00 -
[16]
Originally by: The Isz
First off, I want to say I'm a big fan of EMMA and have been using it for some time. Very nice application.
In RL I run a web development business and have for 15 years. That means I live (and die) by the billable hours of my staff. Based on that I would offer one suggestion to your plan, Ambo. Rather than offer a flat rate per month per coder, instead set them up as actual employees/sub-contractors.
The reason being, at a flat rate there is little incentive for the coder to do more than the bare minimum (as set by you). I'd also add that the minimum contribution you've set could be a bit ambiguous. If the coder only spent 1.5 hours last month working on the project, but that 1.5 hours fixed a major issue...is that a significant contribution?
Instead, I'd pay them by the hour. Perhaps they could use something like MiningBuddy to keep track of their time. That way your coders have incentive and, if you find a real jem of an employee, you can always turn things over to him/her at that point as you transition out.
Whatever path you take, I do hope EMMA continues on and wish you the best of luck!
I had considered this but couldn't really think of a way round it.
In the end I decided that I did not really expect people to apply to do it unless they actually wanted to be a part of it. It is just in-game money after all.
This is certainly somthing I'll be keeping an eye on but I'd like to try and keep it as simple as possible.
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Emporia Tzard
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Posted - 2009.03.27 15:28:00 -
[17]
I would definitely be interested in investing in such an idea, probably to the maximum available. But as others have said I think the payment structure for developers needs to be changed. A flat amount for a non-specific amount of work would be difficult to manage. Also if a developer does nothing in any given month why do they still receive 500Mil ISK? For me no work = no money.
It is important to get value for money out of your employees so it would be better to identify modules of work, price them accordingly and offer them to the developers to work on. Something like one of the freelance development sites out there (e.g. Guru.com) If you don't get 2Bil ISK of work done one month the money left over could either pay for 'extra' development to be done the following month, kept in the kitty, or added to the dividend. This might even support more than two developers if people aren't willing to do several modules each month.
Alternatively you could allocate x numbers of hours of work each month and pay on that basis, but it would probably be difficult to measure work hours done, and/or to predict how long a job was likely to take. |
SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2009.03.27 15:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ambo
Also, if you're being paid 1 bil/month then you might no longer need to haul, mine, mission, etc.
This example was more of a example of an in-eve activity that would allow you to also work on programming :)
I often play other games or read forums etc while I'm hauling or being in a mining op. If I had work to do for something game related I'd use that time to do that instead.
A retainer is nice, so riddle me this, why an IPO? and not a Bond?
IPOs are kind of forever, if you're looking at a pot of ISK the developers know is up for grabs, a Bond would work best, each Bond matures in a set time etc.
Amarr for Life |
Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.27 16:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: SencneS
Originally by: Ambo
Also, if you're being paid 1 bil/month then you might no longer need to haul, mine, mission, etc.
This example was more of a example of an in-eve activity that would allow you to also work on programming :)
I often play other games or read forums etc while I'm hauling or being in a mining op. If I had work to do for something game related I'd use that time to do that instead.
A retainer is nice, so riddle me this, why an IPO? and not a Bond?
IPOs are kind of forever, if you're looking at a pot of ISK the developers know is up for grabs, a Bond would work best, each Bond matures in a set time etc.
Mainly because I can't offer a set rate of return. I could call it a bond... but it would be just the same as it is now. I can't really see that having a set maturity date is an advantage in this case.
The buy back allows investors to get thier money out whenever they want.
Originally by: Emporia Tzard
I would definitely be interested in investing in such an idea, probably to the maximum available. But as others have said I think the payment structure for developers needs to be changed. A flat amount for a non-specific amount of work would be difficult to manage. Also if a developer does nothing in any given month why do they still receive 500Mil ISK? For me no work = no money.
It is important to get value for money out of your employees so it would be better to identify modules of work, price them accordingly and offer them to the developers to work on. Something like one of the freelance development sites out there (e.g. Guru.com) If you don't get 2Bil ISK of work done one month the money left over could either pay for 'extra' development to be done the following month, kept in the kitty, or added to the dividend. This might even support more than two developers if people aren't willing to do several modules each month.
Alternatively you could allocate x numbers of hours of work each month and pay on that basis, but it would probably be difficult to measure work hours done, and/or to predict how long a job was likely to take.
You might be on to somthing there. The idea of the CEO 'pricing up' bugs and features and then paying the developers based upon what they get done seems a much better model and allows for more flexibility. Only problem is that it adds complexity. Certainly somthing for me to think about though.
--------------------------------------
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
|
Posted - 2009.03.27 16:55:00 -
[20]
Edited by: flakeys on 27/03/2009 17:00:28
Originally by: Ambo
Essentially, I'd be wanting to hand over the job of CEO to someone else at some point in the future. Possibly a developer on the project but it could be someone else.
Whoever holds the title of CEO will always be the person to decide on hiring of new devs, determine possible dividend payments, etc. They will also be the one with access to corporate funds. (Perhaps via an ebank account with some special clauses that would come into effect if CEO disappears, etc. need to discuss the possibility and details of this with ebank)
You know you are on my top ten loved eve players list and normally i'd invest BIG time in you even if there where no security what so ever.However the 1st line makes me not want to simply because i won't invest in you but in the person who is stepping in your shoes.
Investing in a plan/corp of wich you know the executor/ceo will change during the investment for me is a no go.
However i wish you the best of luck in this ambo.
Edit: Also i assume you have enough isk to fund this whole operation yourself also because you are not going to play eve for a while.
Wouldn't it be a much better investment for you to do this yourself also in the light that IF you assign someone else to take over and they screw up big time your name won't be dragged into the mud and a hard earned reputation destroyed.
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2009.03.27 17:57:00 -
[21]
I'd like to see a bidding/bounty system for new feature development with the bulk of the fund staying in reserve for maintenance in case something big happens (I'm thinking of a windows update that kills EMMA where a bunch of us are f$cked until we get working).
Maybe EBank could host a forum for ongoing EMMA discussion and sticky all the official bounties? The Sourceforge forum format makes my head hurt.
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Drab Cane
Mining Emporium inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.27 18:41:00 -
[22]
Ambo, this is a tough call. In a perfect world, what you're ideally looking for is a replacement for yourself - an owner/developer. Someone who is motivated to carry on the 'mission' for the mission's sake, and not necessarily the ISK.
Your only chance at success with this is finding an individual(s) that will have that motivation. Paying someone a salary, or even an hourly ISK wage, is just making development a job and the developer an employee.
A better arrangement would be to offer a prospective successor an (initially) small stock ownership, say 10%.
You're looking for someone who is interested in the long term success of the project, not someone who's just looking for a payday.
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- Who Dares, Wins
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Ulecese
Ihatalo Research and Development
Ihatalo Cartel
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Posted - 2009.03.27 19:50:00 -
[23]
would you be willing to sell the rights to it?
I have a development team that are paid rates for the work they do on projects for the Ihatalo Cartel and EMMA could easily be added to the project list.
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IHATALO CARTEL'S IGB T2 SHOP - Tech2 IGB shop
EVE GAMING - API Secure IGB |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.27 22:12:00 -
[24]
I would invest.
EBANK - Chairman of the Board | www.eve-bank.net
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Krathos Morpheus
Gallente
Legion Infernal
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.03.28 00:36:00 -
[25]
For all people saying that this being a bond instead an IPO and discussing about financiation, I think this is more like a donation to the comunity than any other thing. EMMA has no financial problems to be able to financiate itself.
I'm glad you want to sort out an arrangement with E-Bank, cause in the case you leave, I would hate to see EMMA failing because of someone scamming the company for the isks. I would take precautions on the code being stolen if this is possible, restricting the access to the code for new devs or something.
EVE Knowledge |
Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.28 07:38:00 -
[26]
Lots of very interesting points here.
Originally by: Vested Interest
Maybe EBank could host a forum for ongoing EMMA discussion and sticky all the official bounties? The Sourceforge forum format makes my head hurt.
Hehe, I had trouble with the sourceforge format at first as well. I quite like it now but it does seem to be a bit of a barrier to some people.
Originally by: flakeys
You know you are on my top ten loved eve players list and normally i'd invest BIG time in you even if there where no security what so ever.However the 1st line makes me not want to simply because i won't invest in you but in the person who is stepping in your shoes.
Investing in a plan/corp of wich you know the executor/ceo will change during the investment for me is a no go.
You're right, this is somthing that needs to be made very clear. Investors would need to trust my judgement on who could take over, including access to all the project funds.
Perhaps there is a possiblity of having some form of zero access ebank account where even the CEO would not have direct access to the isk. I think I need to investigate the options before rewriting the proposal.
Originally by: Drab Cane
Ambo, this is a tough call. In a perfect world, what you're ideally looking for is a replacement for yourself - an owner/developer. Someone who is motivated to carry on the 'mission' for the mission's sake, and not necessarily the ISK.
Your only chance at success with this is finding an individual(s) that will have that motivation. Paying someone a salary, or even an hourly ISK wage, is just making development a job and the developer an employee.
A better arrangement would be to offer a prospective successor an (initially) small stock ownership, say 10%.
You're looking for someone who is interested in the long term success of the project, not someone who's just looking for a payday.
The salary is really an incentive to get people interested. Several people have contacted me already who I know are interested in the project and keeping it going. There is also nothing to stop developers being shareholders, perhaps there could be some shares held back that are available to developers at face value or somthing..
Originally by: Ulecese
would you be willing to sell the rights to it?
I have a development team that are paid rates for the work they do on projects for the Ihatalo Cartel and EMMA could easily be added to the project list.
That's an angle I had not considered. My only concern would be the stability of the Ihatalo Cartel itself. I assume you are the driving force behind it but are there others who would take over if you left or would that be the end of it?
Originally by: Krathos Morpheus
I would take precautions on the code being stolen if this is possible, restricting the access to the code for new devs or something.
Actually, EMMA is totaly open source and has been available to anyone through sourceforge since it's release.
--------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Ulecese
Ihatalo Research and Development
Ihatalo Cartel
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Posted - 2009.03.28 08:38:00 -
[27]
Quote:
That's an angle I had not considered. My only concern would be the stability of the Ihatalo Cartel itself. I assume you are the driving force behind it but are there others who would take over if you left or would that be the end of it?
You are correct, i'm the head of both cartel alliances (Ihatalo Cartel and Ihatalo Cartel Navy), however there is a management structure in place which at this moment in time consists of 5 senior staff and about 8 managing staff spread amongst the 3 key divisions.
In addition to that we have 3 active coders working on multiple projects so to cut a long story short, there is plenty of personnel ready to take the helm should I be unable to be active.
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IHATALO CARTEL'S IGB T2 SHOP - Tech2 IGB shop
EVE GAMING - API Secure IGB |
flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.03.28 08:51:00 -
[28]
Since i see no reply on this ambo and i am verry curious about it could you tell me -if you want to - why you are not funding this yourself?
Reason i would as stated before is because you're reputation here is flawless and this is more handing over your rep to someone else to use or in worst case abuse and i would hate to see your name being used in a bad manner one day in the MD.
I know i have nothing to do with it and it is not my call but the offer here to 'sell' over EMMA would be a verry good idea to both get a good amount of isk and on top keep your rep perfect.There could be an implemantation to sell it off yet get an X% per month return on profits if the buyer would be willing to do that.
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Mme Pinkerton
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.28 10:49:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 28/03/2009 10:49:11
Originally by: Ambo
Originally by: Krathos Morpheus
I would take precautions on the code being stolen if this is possible, restricting the access to the code for new devs or something.
Actually, EMMA is totaly open source and has been available to anyone through sourceforge since it's release.
According to the project details as displayed on sourceforge.net EMMA is distributed under
the GNU General Public License (possibly version 2?) - however, no licensing/copyright info
is present in/with the actual code (don't recall if the binary installer contains a license info).
Please clarify the licensing terms of EMMA before withdrawing from development! The
term "open source" does not contain any licensing info (even Windows could be
considered to be "open source" as governments, universities etc. have access to the
sourcecode - they just aren't allowed to modify/redistribute it).
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Ayami Sakura
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.03.28 11:42:00 -
[30]
Sounds like a fun project. I'm a professional .net developer with experience in writing data analysis software and using sql server, but as I'm a pretty busy guy I don't think I'd be confortable with continous monthly commitment. I'm guessing many other in my line of work would say the same thing, but perhaps you're looking for people with more time on their hands (for instance university students).
Have you given any thought to the more common project based development approach? I'm guessing you'd have better luck finding experienced programmers if you could outline requirements of new features (or buggfixes) as smaller projects. This way a larger pool of developers can look at the implementation scope and reimbursements of the projects and pick any they feel comfortable that they have the time to complete within the given timeframe.
Of course more developers introduces another set of problems. I'm sure there are people in the community with enough time on their hands capable of helping out.
What type of source code management are you using if you don't mind my asking? Subversion?
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Metrius
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.28 11:48:00 -
[31]
I think creating bounties for each module will make it easier for you to have more developers and in the process will give you a pool of future candidates to take over for you.
I want to be a developer but got stuck doing support and maintenance. I have been looking for a fun way to take the rust off my programming skills, but I don't have time to make a serious commitment.
I have been hanging out in EVE for awhile just not very active in the community. So you can considered me new.
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Krathos Morpheus
Gallente
Legion Infernal
Wildly Inappropriate.
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 14:08:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Ambo
Actually, EMMA is totaly open source and has been available to anyone through sourceforge since it's release.
I didn't know. Any thoughts on when do you want to launch this?
EVE Knowledge |
Maestro Del'Tirith
Space Exploration
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 14:49:00 -
[33]
I am grabbing the source this weekend and will be taking a look at it. I think it is good to see some incentive wrapped around this, and project-based would be fine by me. My one thought: let developers 'claim' a project, and prove to you (for now) and eventually the future leader of the efforts that they are working on it. While one developer has a particular project, another should not be able to pick it up. Having two developers picking up the same project would be - annoying to say the least.
As a thought, why not have a share based vote or something similar to decide the initial project set and their relative 'prioritization' and therefore the isk to be associated with it? Let those supporting the effort decide where the incentive will lie for completion of changes.
That said, I really look forward to digging into this.
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 14:56:00 -
[34]
Nice concept Ambo.
Having skimmed the thread, my personal recommendations would be)
1) Do IPO it, since your goal of keeping a financial interest (i.e. nagging the developers) in the project will help keep it going. Pay, if done properly, is a good motivator. Also you want EMMA to be perpetual, and income is flexible, so an IPO is the appropriate model.
2) A bounty system along with a minimal flat pay is probably best. Basically, there are a few categories to work on here: a) new features, b) bug fixes, c) documentation and customer support. My guess is you need a ticket system where people can track both development and support issues, and assign them complexities of low/med/high, where you can then pay something like 100/200/300 or 100/300/500 depending on the category per issue resolved or some such. You can make this even more fun by having a customer submit option for the ticket system, and developers can then add in the support issues into the set with the development issues.
3) Development team rank. I don't know how to pull this part off, but if you had 2-3 senior developers, i.e., people who can manage the ticket system and payments, then you can have a nearly unlimited number of junior devs below. So it's really about getting that structure in place, and eventually the EMMA project would be like its own company, which I think is what you are after =)
With this setup EMMA has its own funding base, you pay seniors a minimum/month and more depending on what they do. It supports an unlimited number of juniors, and then also integrates a formal way to keep up customer support and handle customer issues by allowing them to submit tickets into the system.
Just some ideas. Good luck sir =)
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 11:27:00 -
[35]
I like this idea a lot. Let me know where/when to send ISK.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 11:52:00 -
[36]
Do it as an IPO. I like variable dividends, and if the company grows we get more too.
I am going to set the start of the market:
1,000 shares at 1.5M per share = 1.5B ISK
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No Profit
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 14:10:00 -
[37]
Wait, the auction's not starting just yet. This may still not even happen. I need to iron out a few things first.
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DaemonExodus
Sleeper Industries
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 22:33:00 -
[38]
I will invest in this. I have already a vested interest in EMMA having already contributed to Ambo for development of certain features I wanted to see in EMMA immediately.
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Caladain Barton
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 02:26:00 -
[39]
I'm a Software Engineer thats been looking for a project in eve for a while. I'd be up for picking up Emma and doing work on the project.
-Caladain
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Kayla Darkstar
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 04:05:00 -
[40]
Well there are a few sticking points to this pay structure. I'm a .Net developer with several years of experience. I can do my own SQL/Photoshop work and web design as well. My billable hour to a long term customer would be somewhere between 70-90 an hour. In ISK valuation, you're looking at 17.99 plex X 310 m or roughly..1.2B-1.5B per hour. Granted, in reality you can't just dream up extra Ben Franklins by staying at work another hour, most of us are salaried or we'd be way too expensive. 1 Billion a month doesn't work out for more than 5 or so hours of work at max. Any more and I'd rather slap down the 60 bucks for the Plex and go pvp. I happen to write online web apps and desktop based tax collection software, I would definitely have the skill set to help you out but I'd need the right financial incentive. FYI, we've been interviewing college programmers at a rate of maybe 10 per week and I wouldn't trust them to code a screen saver correctly. I swear these college courses don't teach them anything.
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Astorothe
Aperture Science Industries
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 06:11:00 -
[41]
I like this IPO and would definitely invest.
RPGN Gaming News | News, events and reviews on the best MMOs, RPGs and addictive games | RPGN.net |
Ji Sama
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 07:57:00 -
[42]
still interested and still willing to invest...
This is a signature not related to EVE |
Emporia Tzard
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 08:39:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Kayla Darkstar
Well there are a few sticking points to this pay structure. I'm a .Net developer with several years of experience. I can do my own SQL/Photoshop work and web design as well. My billable hour to a long term customer would be somewhere between 70-90 an hour. In ISK valuation, you're looking at 17.99 plex X 310 m or roughly..1.2B-1.5B per hour. Granted, in reality you can't just dream up extra Ben Franklins by staying at work another hour, most of us are salaried or we'd be way too expensive. 1 Billion a month doesn't work out for more than 5 or so hours of work at max. Any more and I'd rather slap down the 60 bucks for the Plex and go pvp. I happen to write online web apps and desktop based tax collection software, I would definitely have the skill set to help you out but I'd need the right financial incentive. FYI, we've been interviewing college programmers at a rate of maybe 10 per week and I wouldn't trust them to code a screen saver correctly. I swear these college courses don't teach them anything.
But this isn't a REAL job. This is the kind of stuff that a lot of people would actually do for free just to be part of it. The ISK reward is there to encourage regular input to the cause, not to give full payment for their work. |
Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 11:08:00 -
[44]
I obviously can't compete with real-world salaries and it's not my intention to do so.
1 bil per month is enough to let you buy GTCs and lose several T2 fitted ships each month without worrying about it.
I suppose it comes down to the fact that if all you're interested in is the ISK then you're not the type of person I'm looking for. It's an extra incentive but little more than that.
I'm hoping to have a re-worked proposal up later this week. Just don't want to rush things.
--------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Maestro Del'Tirith
Space Exploration
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 14:19:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Maestro Del''Tirith on 30/03/2009 14:18:50
To the items above, this reminds me very much of various other discussions I've had where I have helped out as a developer for an EVE related effort. At the end of the day, if you were to ask me 'how much would it cost to hire you to program xxx?' my answer would almost always be 'you can't afford me.'
This is not about affording the time and energy of a developer though...this is attaching incentive to an opportunity that improves the community as a whole and gives everybody additional tools in their marketing belt. It also opens up the door to these endeavors to help out, which is a Good Thing(tm). By attaching some incentive to it, the developer has a bit of an extra reward at the end which spurs on the development efforts.
All in all a great idea - and one which ensures that people who aren't interested in improving the tool itself need not apply - though I think a sales campaign in the Sell Order forums for the tool would probably raise the capital just as easily.
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Caladain Barton
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:25:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ambo
It's an extra incentive but little more than that.
Thats primarily how i view the isk offer. If we're looking at it like Kayla Darkstar so pointed out, with an eye towards USD/hour, then it makes more economical sense to simply buy GTC's.
I, on the other hand, view Emma and any other eve related programming project as more of a hobby/open source-type project that just happens to net me a bit of isk on the side.
True hackers program for the fun of it, not for the monetary gain. 'Course..the rewards do sweeten the deal at the end of the day ;-)
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Kayla Darkstar
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 05:26:00 -
[47]
I was simply pointing out that the really good programmers(who I assume you are looking for) spend all day programming and usually have a limited amount of down time to satisfy our gaming habits. On a pure dollar to fun ratio, it's easier to buy Plex than to commit large amounts of time to your project. Granted, I have no idea what kind of time commitment you're looking for. If it's 5-10 hours a month maybe, if it's 5 hours a week I'd probably say not worth it. Out of curiosity, how is your sales structure laid out. Are you counting on new sales monthly to fund the project or reoccurring revenue from a renewal based service? I happen to work at a company that sells a renewal based desktop client that helps track and remit sales taxes. I'd have to worry as a long term investor about market saturation if you're just doing one time sales. Eve's player base doesn't recycle nearly as fast as most other MMO's.
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 06:47:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Kayla Darkstar
I was simply pointing out that the really good programmers(who I assume you are looking for) spend all day programming and usually have a limited amount of down time to satisfy our gaming habits. On a pure dollar to fun ratio, it's easier to buy Plex than to commit large amounts of time to your project. Granted, I have no idea what kind of time commitment you're looking for. If it's 5-10 hours a month maybe, if it's 5 hours a week I'd probably say not worth it. Out of curiosity, how is your sales structure laid out. Are you counting on new sales monthly to fund the project or reoccurring revenue from a renewal based service? I happen to work at a company that sells a renewal based desktop client that helps track and remit sales taxes. I'd have to worry as a long term investor about market saturation if you're just doing one time sales. Eve's player base doesn't recycle nearly as fast as most other MMO's.
for a pro programmer making such a applet IS the FUN in their life ;)
___________________________________________
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Caladain Barton
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 07:12:00 -
[49]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
for a pro programmer making such a applet IS the FUN in their life ;)
Exactly :-)
I don't program for work because it brings in a paycheck, i do it because it's fun. I'd be programming even if there was no money in the field at all :-)
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Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 07:53:00 -
[50]
EMMA is a one-time purchase.
I had considered a monthly payment or somthing but I don't believe it's viable, plus it would have required more effort on my part.
Saturation is a concern but I'm not overly worried. Revenue will continue to come from bespoke developments anyway and I don't see any sign of sales falling of yet.
I'm honestly not too bothered about the ability of the programmers who want to join. Obviously it would be nice to have more experienced people but when I started EMMA I had only done a small amount of C# to teach myself how to use it. I had virtualy no knowledge of SQL queries, etc. I've learnt a HUGE amount worknig on it but I'm still no .NET guru. 
--------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 12:39:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Ambo on 31/03/2009 12:39:29
Thank you all for your feedback. Here my thoughts on the proposed changes and ideas.
Payment system
After much thought, I have decided to go with the a hybrid system of paying developers. Each will recieve a 'salary' of 500 mil isk per month. This can then be topped up with bounties for fixing bugs or completing new features. (This then has potential to grow into the structure described by Selene D'Celeste.)
I'll stick with two developers initially and hope to grow slowly from there.
1. New features
The priority of new developments would be decided by shareholder vote (probably from a subset of the available projects). The highest priority projects would have bonuses attached to them that would be awarded to developers upon release. The bonus could be anywhere from 100-500 mil isk, based upon the difficulty of the changes and time required (decided by me).
In addition, EMMA users can personally assign a bounty to a specific feature. This fee will be collected when the developer agrees to pickup the project (The only time I've agreed to not getting payed 100% up front, I didn't get payed). the fee would be payed to the corp, 50% would then go to the developer upon release of the project.
2. Bugs
To ensure bugs are not simply left, a bounty system will be in place to award either 20 mil, 50 mil or 100 mil for each bug fixed. The amount will depend on the difficulty and time required (decided by me).
Ihatalo Cartel 'buyout'
Ulecese, thank you for the offer of taking over the project but I shall decline. I'm interested in seeing where this IPO will lead.
Final thoughts
I will go ahead with creating the shares, etc and aim to start the auction within a few days time.
--------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Maestro Del'Tirith
Space Exploration
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 14:43:00 -
[52]
Given that there is still a base salary included, can you describe how you intend to screen candidates and determine appropriate individuals to be on the 'developer roster'? Would it make sense to require them to make a change prior to inclusion on the roster?
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Mme Pinkerton
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 16:48:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ambo
Payment system
(...)
1. New features
(...)
2. Bugs
(...)
IMHO this procedure will lead to a bloody mess: every developer will be concerned about
fixing bugs or introducing new features while code quality as a whole suffers.
Who will filter which new features get developed (do I get that kitchen sink built into
EMMA if I would pay 10bil ?), who will decide if a patch meets quality standards, who
will have an eye on the general code structure? At the moment EMMA is structured quite
well - nevertheless there are already cases of (unnecessary) code duplication and bad
readability.
Tell us how you will maintain quality by setting incentives for more features.
Originally by: Ambo
Ihatalo Cartel 'buyout'
Ulecese, thank you for the offer of taking over the project but I shall decline. I'm interested in seeing where this IPO will lead.
Well, he offered to buy something which is already free...
Originally by: Ambo
Final thoughts
I will go ahead with creating the shares, etc and aim to start the auction within a few days time.
At this point I feel the urge to seriously question your business model.
You rely on people to pay for an application which they can get for free. The only
benefits (preferred treatment of feature requests) is not only negligible for most
users, but also offset by the shift towards "sponsored" features.
That's a pretty big bet on the MD community as a whole.
Your business model relies on once-in-a-lifetime payments - so you are either betting
on the future growth of MD or on a high fluctuation amongst traders. I am quite
certain that even a thread of "How to compile EMMA yourself" (not to speak of a free
- as in beer - fork of EMMA) would lead to a temporary decrease of revenue which could
cause the project serious financial issues. Yes, after some time people will
notice that without paying for EMMA they wouldn't get any new features, as development
would slow down/cease - but by this time your IPO might well have gone bust.
My feeling is that EMMAs revenue stream relies heavily on the fact that most people
are not aware that the program is open-source. Especially newbie traders think the
current price point is pretty steep which makes this application vulnerable to
"pirating".
Companies like RedHat, Sun, IBM etc. are earning on open-source software by offering
customers some additional value which the customers wouldn't get without paying and
which is very hard to emulate for free (namely support) - I fail to see how EMMA offers
significant additional value to paying over non-paying customers.
I like EMMA very much and I do highly respect Ambo - but this business plan is fail IMHO.
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Kayla Darkstar
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 17:02:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
Originally by: Ambo
At this point I feel the urge to seriously question your business model.
You rely on people to pay for an application which they can get for free. The only
benefits (preferred treatment of feature requests) is not only negligible for most
users, but also offset by the shift towards "sponsored" features.
That's a pretty big bet on the MD community as a whole.
Your business model relies on once-in-a-lifetime payments - so you are either betting
on the future growth of MD or on a high fluctuation amongst traders. I am quite
certain that even a thread of "How to compile EMMA yourself" (not to speak of a free
- as in beer - fork of EMMA) would lead to a temporary decrease of revenue which could
cause the project serious financial issues. Yes, after some time people will
notice that without paying for EMMA they wouldn't get any new features, as development
would slow down/cease - but by this time your IPO might well have gone bust.
My feeling is that EMMAs revenue stream relies heavily on the fact that most people
are not aware that the program is open-source. Especially newbie traders think the
current price point is pretty steep which makes this application vulnerable to
"pirating".
Companies like RedHat, Sun, IBM etc. are earning on open-source software by offering
customers some additional value which the customers wouldn't get without paying and
which is very hard to emulate for free (namely support) - I fail to see how EMMA offers
significant additional value to paying over non-paying customers.
I like EMMA very much and I do highly respect Ambo - but this business plan is fail IMHO.
I have to agree. The software that I produce for my employer is only viable because of changing tax structures and a need for quarterly updates to keep your systems compliant. We don't generate nearly the revenue needed from new sales to keep the company alive. All of our income comes from yearly renewals. Honestly, you'd be better off taking the 10 billion dollar endowment from the stock sale and maybe another 10 billion of your own funds and putting them in an interest bearing account from d-bank. You'd earn enough long term interest to fund your developers and then do dividend payouts to your investors from the project's income.
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Caladain Barton
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 22:16:00 -
[55]
i'll throw in my hat for being in on this project.
The payment system seems to need a bit of work, and i think market saturation can be a bit of a problem (there are only so many clients, and offering a one-time life-time payment might be the long term death of this project {maybe one-time payment for each major version? Thusly, all bug-fixes and minor feature additions/enhancements are free, but you have a continued customer base.})
I do agree that this project should be open source on principle alone. Preventing piracy is a futile battle..any sort of protection mechanism is purely to keep honest people honest.
I can send you my pedigree if you like for working on the project.
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Maestro Del'Tirith
Space Exploration
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 01:55:00 -
[56]
Regarding the quality concern, I was under the assumption that Ambo or some designated lead developer would review all changes before they are final and accepted - this is no different from hiring a consultant developer for any endeavor (except that - dear god - they actually need to finish something! Lord knows I've seen enough of that lacking in my time...)
Quality control and community testing, as well as acceptance by the client who requested the change seem like things that will develop either in the beginning or over time, depending on how things crop up.
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Kushion
Anti Sweden Defense Force
Virtue of Selfishness
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 02:37:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Kayla Darkstar
I was simply pointing out that the really good programmers(who I assume you are looking for) spend all day programming and usually have a limited amount of down time to satisfy our gaming habits. On a pure dollar to fun ratio, it's easier to buy Plex than to commit large amounts of time to your project. Granted, I have no idea what kind of time commitment you're looking for. If it's 5-10 hours a month maybe, if it's 5 hours a week I'd probably say not worth it. Out of curiosity, how is your sales structure laid out. Are you counting on new sales monthly to fund the project or reoccurring revenue from a renewal based service? I happen to work at a company that sells a renewal based desktop client that helps track and remit sales taxes. I'd have to worry as a long term investor about market saturation if you're just doing one time sales. Eve's player base doesn't recycle nearly as fast as most other MMO's.
I don't think comparing RL income to eve translatable income is the right way to go it. If you're making more than $5 an hour, you could save a lot of time by buying GTCs and selling for isk. OFC, most people that make $5/hr have different priorities for their RL monies. :P
Probably better to compare it to how you make isk in eve. If you run missions for 30m/hr, a 1b/month salary begins to sound pretty good. You could drop a lot of your missioning hours and spend it on this instead. If you enjoy programming more than missions, then this begins to sound like a good deal.
Then again, if your primary occupation is trading and you make 100m/hr, it doesn't look so good.
Moving on to Ambo's proposal, I'd say it sounds interesting. The specifics of how you handle it will probably make or break it, so don't do anything hasty without giving it a lot of thought. I probably wouldn't want to invest in something like this, but I suspect you have enough fans I doubt you will have any problems raising money.
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Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 08:01:00 -
[58]
I shall ponder these points.
I do not believe that EMMA being easy to pirate has a massive effect on income. However, I can certainly see this being tackled in the near future. EMMA being open source makes it impossible to prevent piracy but it could certainly be made more difficult without a huge amount of effort.
Keep in mind that 100 mil isk is really not a big deal. Could you be bothered to download someone elses project, modify it to not look for a license key and then compile it for the sake of 100 mil isk? I know I wouldn't bother, plus you'd have to do it every time a new release came out if you wanted the new features.
I also believe that the market for somthing like this is far bigger than anyone realises. I've had well over 2,000 downloads of the original installer. Although the majority have not bought the software, that shows that there is a large amount of interest if nothing else. Tbh I also believed the market was smaller than it is, and I was suprised when orders continued to come in at the same rate months after release.
As new features are added, more people become interested, I always see a surge in sales just after a big feature update. This is why features are the focus of the reward system.
I will personally be vetting changes before they are added to the beta updater. There would then be community testing and sposor acceptance (if applicable). How can I incentivise writting good code? Even the proposed system is far from the simple approach that I would prefer.
I'm clearly never going to be able to please everyone with this so I'll just have to go with whatever I think is best for the project.
--------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 08:04:00 -
[59]
I shall ponder these points.
I do not believe that EMMA being easy to pirate has a massive effect on income. However, I can certainly see this being tackled in the near future. EMMA being open source makes it impossible to prevent piracy but it could certainly be made more difficult without a huge amount of effort.
Keep in mind that 100 mil isk is really not a big deal. Could you be bothered to download someone elses project, modify it to not look for a license key and then compile it for the sake of 100 mil isk? I know I wouldn't bother, plus you'd have to do it every time a new release came out if you wanted the new features.
I also believe that the market for somthing like this is far bigger than anyone realises. I've had well over 2,000 downloads of the original installer. Although the majority have not bought the software, that shows that there is a large amount of interest if nothing else. Tbh I also believed the market was smaller than it is, and I was suprised when orders continued to come in at the same rate months after release.
As new features are added, more people become interested, I always see a surge in sales just after a big feature update. This is why features are the focus of the reward system.
I will personally be vetting changes before they are added to the beta updater. There would then be community testing and sposor acceptance (if applicable). How can I incentivise writting good code? Even the proposed system is far from the simple approach that I would prefer.
I'm clearly never going to be able to please everyone with this so I'll just have to go with whatever I think is best for the project.
I can send you my pedigree if you like for working on the project.
--------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Mr Horizontal
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 11:19:00 -
[60]
When people see quality and a labour of love, they generally pay. That said piracy is actually pretty difficult since EMMA deals with API keys. Just verify at least one of the API keys being used in EMMA has actually got a payment associated with it
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
Ji Sama
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 13:28:00 -
[61]
posting to confirm that i am still very interested in investing :D
This is a signature not related to EVE |
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 14:46:00 -
[62]
I def want to invest in this project, if for nothing else then the goodwill value of having it in my portfolio.
I personally think the convenience will handle most pirating issues, and there are plenty of ways to make sure the ambo/emma name gets their profits.
Like the media industry the rumors of potential loss is highly overrated. 
Looking forward to the IPO ambo.
- Money is Love -
Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
DaemonExodus
Sleeper Industries
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 03:42:00 -
[63]
bumping this. still want to invest in this. Definitely interested in the continuation and further improvements of EMMA if and when Ambo decides to leave it.
|
Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 07:21:00 -
[64]
Just sorting things out atm. Want to make sure everything is ready to go before launch.
--------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
charnea
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 17:33:00 -
[65]
I too would like to invest in this. I think it is a brilliant program and a unique investment opportunity.
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Xeoniya
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 19:12:00 -
[66]
If the Emma market does get saturated it seems like it might be possible to create new expansions/add-ons and charge for them.
Might even be possible to do website work for things like sales, e-banks/exchanges, etc. that people with no skills dream up and are willing to pay good isk for.
If you make sure that there is a clause about any code modules being added to your companies source code library then you can churn out similar products fairly rapidly and keep costs down for the consumer.
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LarcatOfRens
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 20:21:00 -
[67]
Soooo... a question.....
Any thoughts on a registration key at a certain stock purchase level?
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Emporia Tzard
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 11:47:00 -
[68]
Sorry for the Necro, but any update on how this is going?
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Ambo
EMMA Test Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.16 18:27:00 -
[69]
Check this post for the latest info.
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