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New Ship Idea: Cannon Ships

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Tartarus Spyker	Posted - 2009.03.27 18:36:00 - [1] I'm not sure what you would call these kind of ships, but in many sci-fi universes, ships tend to be build around a larger weapon. For example, in the Halo series, most if not all of the human's ships contain a large cannon that runs through the structure, the opening coming out the front of the ship, called a Magnetic Acceleration Cannon. I was thinking, many ships in EVE currently would not be able to use such weapons because they are a-symmetrical, but lets say the dev team could make new models for these ships, such a heavy weapon that'd be the basis of an entire ship could be a considerable siege weapon or some other heavy weapon. The only problem I see is the logic that the ship has to face its target. The fact drones' guns are facing forward but the weapon effects can be seen going from the end of the gun to just about any direction is awkward but not such a big deal, so I think just the simple check of "is the ship moving in a direction toward the locked on target? If so, it can use it's main cannon. If not, it has to be moving in the direction of the target (which means it would be facing it, or near facing it)." As far as application, like I said these could be siege weapons or Ship-to-Ship weapons. Making the core component of a ship anything besides a weapon doesen't seem to make sense unless a kind of ship was made that was obviously built around a generator or some hi-tech looking device that could be used for warp disruption, ECM etc. Another thing they could be used for is an excuse to launch warp bubbles through space; The ship needs this big cannon to do it. Similarly, I remember coming across a "new" model of stargate I have never seen before. It consists of two pylons with glowy stuff in between that launches ships into warp-space. They don't have any part of their design that looks like any kind of tube or tunnel that would otherwise launch or accelerate objects. This could be explored more for making larger ships that work more as a weapon than a ship. Maybe even using a new function to require a small ship to tow it. Ideas? Comments?
Azirapheal Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.03.27 21:38:00 - [2] i quite like this idea, but then i originally discovered eve due to my hobby of playing battlefleet gothic (a games workshop spaceship game) one thing that i do find cool about the game is the emphasis on weapon location, prow weapons having a narrow arc of fire etc there was one weapon in it used by the imperial navy primarilly, called the macro cannon or nova cannon (cant quite remember which) but the fluff and gameplay involved charging and firing a bolt of superheated plasma from the reactor cores of the ship directly forwards. and it did OMFGWTFBBQ dmg if you got it to hit :) i could see this working in eve quite well, but you would have to be facing your target. would make fights more interesting tbh knowing that hes trying to get transversal to zero to completely destroy you but then id like to see phased damge. consistant shots from behind crippling your engines etc aswell Originally by: Grohalmatar The proposed changes in the game development forum are obviously a nerf to falcon pilots. However, what they really are is a nerf to falcon alts.
Elite Qin Caldari APOCALYPSE LEGION	Posted - 2009.03.28 01:00:00 - [3] Ray tracing (which is what would be needed for this idea) is EXTREMELY CPU intensive, it's a rough, rough thing to do, and with those ships running, it'll kill the servers.
Alexander Vallen	Posted - 2009.03.28 02:36:00 - [4] Edited by: Alexander Vallen on 28/03/2009 02:38:56 Commonly proposed Ideas. Spinal Mounted Weapons. It comes up a lot. (Belive me, I support the idea.)
Finshraira	Posted - 2009.03.28 04:03:00 - [5] I like the idea my self but it needs some fixes. Like most ships it would need guns as they are now but depending on the ship it would have one-three Huge slots on it to add different types of forward/side shooting guns such as: Forward Constant Beam guns, Cannons such as the ones from halo, and many others. It would likely start with frigates with fighter like guns that can be added to the front. Than it could go onto small ships tat would use them for long range attacks or large missile launchers. As it goes into large ships they may have 2 or even three spots. THESE WEAPONS WOULD BE GOD LIKE! but they would not be OP because the fact you have to have the target at a specific spot to hit them.
Irn Bruce	Posted - 2009.03.28 11:53:00 - [6] Originally by: Elite Qin Ray tracing (which is what would be needed for this idea) is EXTREMELY CPU intensive, it's a rough, rough thing to do, and with those ships running, it'll kill the servers. People always have the misconception that ray tracing is CPU intensive. For an application like this, it's not particularly bad. Yes, it's more CPU intensive than the way guns work now, but it's really not that bad. The misconception comes because ray traced graphics ARE hugely intensive. But that's because you're casting a ray for every pixel on the screen (usually in 2 directions) and letting it reflect multiple times. Which works out at several million rays per frame. For a gun like this, it could ignore collisions with everything but the target, just like current guns do, and would only need a single ray to be cast each time the gun was fired. Presumably it would have a slow rate of fire, and there would probably only be one per ship. Even in a huge fleet battle, that will only be a few hundred rays every x number of seconds. That could be handled easily. However, this idea is still technically unfeasible. Casting a ray isn't the problem, the problem is that the server doesn't know all the information it needs to work out if the ray actually hits. As far as I can tell, the serve treats every ship as a sphere, and doesn't know anything about the direction it's facing. So the server doesn't know what direction to cast the ray in. With the current, turreted guns, this isn't a problem, because the only variable that matters is range, which is calculated from the centre of your ship's bounding sphere to the centre of the target ship's. Theoretically, it would be possible to make a change so that the server would know the necessary information, but I suspect doing that would have a big impact on server performance, since it's something that would have to be tracked for every ship in space, at all times. Technical issues aside though, I don't like this idea. It's a nice idea from a "coolness" point of view, but in game it just wouldn't work. you're talking about a gun with zero tracking. To get a hit, you'd have to be extremely lucky, or firing at something stationary. Essentially, you're just talking about dreadnought guns in siege mode.
Tartarus Spyker	Posted - 2009.03.28 15:22:00 - [7] I understand the problem with how the server gets it's info which is why I said that the gun could only hit its target if the object or sphere was moving towards what its aiming at. If the ship is moving towards its target it most likely HAS to be facing it. So Approaching your locked target would allow you fire at it, using some other stats to factor in if it hits or not.
Tartarus Spyker	Posted - 2009.03.30 20:45:00 - [8] any other ideas?
Neesmah Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.30 21:25:00 - [9] Umm, the way that bomb's are launched currently from stealth bombers, am i right in thinking that the direction of the shot is dictated by the direction ur ship is travelling? I don't know if this is a usefull adition, i realise there will be a diffference between a focused shot and an aoew, but could it perhaps be adapted to run off essentially what we already have in game? Despite that, whilst essentially a mac cannon would be fun, personally i think ccp should have higher priorities, currently there is already a class of ship designed for killing POS and huge slow ships, the Dreads, so tbh, i rekon this might either itself start out as obselete, or make dreads obselete. Immensea
Jaelyn Keris	Posted - 2009.03.30 23:21:00 - [10] Cannon Ship, Pfffttt What I want is a SHIP CANNON! Used with (Chargegroup): Frigates

Neesmah Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.31 08:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Jaelyn Keris Cannon Ship, Pfffttt What I want is a SHIP CANNON! Used with (Chargegroup): Frigates They say that the Rifter is the ultimate PvP ship, perhaps it is, whilst being fired at someone. /SIGNED! nothing if not original Immensea
Tartarus Spyker	Posted - 2009.03.31 21:22:00 - [12] LOL thats all i have to say
Clansworth Good Rock Materials	Posted - 2009.03.31 21:47:00 - [13] Edited by: Clansworth on 31/03/2009 21:55:21 I always wished dreads in siege were something more like this.. I mean, immobile anyways, would be neat if the 'siege module' was the actual weapon, with a single low RoF, high damage cannon. Just have to work out the 'transformation' into siege more, a'la the Rorqual... i mean, just because the rorqual's transformation was designed after dreads were in game, is no excuse to not go back and update the models. Really, the carriers should have a transformation into logistics mode as well... I imagine a couple dreads appearing at a POS, deploying (visually), and a big charging cannon that lets loose with a really impressive effect. I'm thinking the Drej mothership in Titan A.E. (link is to a pretty well done mix, as well). System Influence
Marcus Gideon Gallente Limited Liability Corp	Posted - 2009.03.31 21:50:00 - [14] How about something similar. That being, modules you'd fit to each ship in a squad. Say 6 in all, 5 using a module along the lines of a Cap Transfer. And the 6th using a weapon that requires entirely too much power to be fired by a single ship. So you'd have 1 ship locking onto the target, and 5 ships boosting him until he can fire. --- *Players aren't interested in Variety, they only want THE BEST.*
Tykkis	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:24:00 - [15] funny, when i first started to play tis game, i saw few people talking about beam lasers and about turning and tracking and 150km range. I was flying caldari as my first race(for a week) so i had no idea what transversal was. I got the impression long range weapons were intact in the ship and you had to turn the ship to hit the target. Maybe it should be some anti capital BC sized ship that would be vulnerable to frigate sized ships. I love rock paper scisors mechanic(forces teamplay)... EVE lacks this on many cases. BS fleet counter BS fleet, ECM ship counters ECM, frigate is best at killing frigate... i went a bit offtopic here :) good one, Tartarus Spyker.
Alexander Vallen	Posted - 2009.03.31 23:31:00 - [16] Originally by: Marcus Gideon How about something similar. That being, modules you'd fit to each ship in a squad. Say 6 in all, 5 using a module along the lines of a Cap Transfer. And the 6th using a weapon that requires entirely too much power to be fired by a single ship. So you'd have 1 ship locking onto the target, and 5 ships boosting him until he can fire. This is an interesting idea (again it would be difficult to implement with a spinal mount weapons) it opens up some possibilities. A weapon like this would require say 3 new highslot items. -Transmitter -Reciever -Weapon Discharge Module 4 ships acting in support each mount 1 transmitter module in one of their highslots. The ship at the core of this formation has 4 reciever modules equipped that takes in what the other ships are transmitting. The core ship then uses the modules taking up it's other 4 highslots, the weapon dischargers themselves. Slightly complicated I suppose but this would again be a siege equivilant weapon.
ShadowMaster56	Posted - 2009.04.01 02:22:00 - [17] this could be a kinda of new bomb launcher for the stealth bomber, Also sense the Dreadnought seams to be missing a super capital counterpart, it can be a Massive fixed cannon used for POS sieges and Titan bombardment.
Sir Substance Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp	Posted - 2009.04.01 04:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Neesmah Umm, the way that bomb's are launched currently from stealth bombers, am i right in thinking that the direction of the shot is dictated by the direction ur ship is travelling? no, you are not. sorry, try again. also, op, the server tracks vectors, not the direction your ship is facing. this means if you are standing still, your spinal gun divides by zero, either hitting everything or your own ship. whoops.
Verloc Nostromo Black Mesa	Posted - 2009.04.01 04:24:00 - [19] I was thinking about the notion that the server does not know what direction the ship is pointing. It already projects a cone in "front" of the ship (well, direction of travel) to calculate collisions and the like, could not that same cone be used simply to determine what can/cannot be hit.
Sir Substance Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp	Posted - 2009.04.01 05:20:00 - [20] Originally by: Verloc Nostromo Edited by: Verloc Nostromo on 01/04/2009 04:28:26 Edited by: Verloc Nostromo on 01/04/2009 04:27:14 I was thinking about the notion that the server does not know what direction the ship is pointing. It already projects a cone in "front" of the ship (well, direction of travel) no, it doesnt. it simply has a subroutine saying that two objects cannot occupy the same place in space.

Tykkis	Posted - 2009.04.01 11:55:00 - [21] Originally by: Marcus Gideon How about something similar. That being, modules you'd fit to each ship in a squad. Say 6 in all, 5 using a module along the lines of a Cap Transfer. And the 6th using a weapon that requires entirely too much power to be fired by a single ship. So you'd have 1 ship locking onto the target, and 5 ships boosting him until he can fire. Unreal Tournament 2003+ link gun. good one. So it would basically be 6*Cruisers teaming up and having a capital turret? Shooter has the module in turret slot and the others have transfer module in utility slot?
Marcus Gideon Gallente Limited Liability Corp	Posted - 2009.04.01 13:51:00 - [22] Originally by: Tykkis Originally by: Marcus Gideon How about something similar. That being, modules you'd fit to each ship in a squad. Say 6 in all, 5 using a module along the lines of a Cap Transfer. And the 6th using a weapon that requires entirely too much power to be fired by a single ship. So you'd have 1 ship locking onto the target, and 5 ships boosting him until he can fire. Unreal Tournament 2003+ link gun. good one. So it would basically be 6*Cruisers teaming up and having a capital turret? Shooter has the module in turret slot and the others have transfer module in utility slot? Actually, I've never played any of the Unreals. But I have watched a lot of random sci-fi. Yeah, I'm basically picturing a formation of several ships around the central one. They're using something like Cap Transfer modules to boost the energy of the middle one, who has the main weapon fitted. The weapon requires a ton of energy to fire. So when you activate it... the little cycle animation comes on. But it doesn't raise unless someone is "charging" it. Once it's developed a full charge, it fires and starts over again. I figured the limit would be around 6, just so you don't have a whole fleet "charging" a single guy for rapid fire. And all in all, I was kinda picturing this as being something more like POS warfare. I mean, sure. You could have a sieged Dread... or you could have several smaller craft blasting your POS instead.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.04.01 16:31:00 - [23] Moble 155 Howitzer is basicly the closest RL version of something built around a gun. i think we need Industrial based "artillery" or heavy bombers. Badger Class Strategic Bomber or some such. shoots bombs that are 100x more powerful then those of the stealth, of course the bomber lacks said stealth
Lifelongnoob Caldari Final Conflict UK Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.04.01 21:37:00 - [24] so a cannon ship would fire a doomsday bomb for want of a better description? smash a pos tower into reinforced mode in like 2 shots? it would need to be like the titan though and need a jump time penalty & long reload time after its fired
Tartarus Spyker	Posted - 2009.04.02 18:16:00 - [25] I think something you guys aren't getting is that the idea I posted was like.. hmm.. A general design. It wouldn't just be for big ass cannons- just heavier guns. For instance a Frigate is best with small turrets but could have a medium or large turret in its "structure" slot, which it can use to deal serious damage to large/stationary targets it can line up with.
Marcus Gideon Gallente Limited Liability Corp	Posted - 2009.04.02 18:27:00 - [26] Originally by: Tartarus Spyker I think something you guys aren't getting is that the idea I posted was like.. hmm.. A general design. It wouldn't just be for big ass cannons- just heavier guns. For instance a Frigate is best with small turrets but could have a medium or large turret in its "structure" slot, which it can use to deal serious damage to large/stationary targets it can line up with. If that's the case, then you're going to run into problems. The reason we have turrets and missiles, is the way the game computes damage and such. As several have stated already, the servers evidently don't keep track of your exact orientation so much as just your position. When you bump off something, it's just plotting a course for the bubble around your ship as it intersects another bubble around an object. Then it says that for the angle you came in, you'll rebound at some other angle. We have "turrets" because that's what you'd call a weapon that can be pointed in any given direction. So the damage is calculated based on the position and velocity of your ship's bubble, relative to the opponent. Even if you could manage to line up a shot, all it'd take is some Shuttle/Interceptor playing Bumper Cars to throw it all off. And believe me, I'd be out there ramming you in all sorts of directions if I saw you trying to line up a shot on something important to me. The reason others seem to be "missing" the point, is because your concept is seriously flawed. There's no reason to fit Medium/Heavy weapons onto a frigate and hope to achieve anything with them. What will a frigate be shooting at, that's standing still long enough to line up a shot? And how much will it hurt whatever that is... to be hit with a single shot when you could have Cruisers and Battleships using multiple weapons just as big. That's why the only viable means would be a large ship, or several large ships, firing at a POS. Maybe... maybe, a Titan or some sort of sieged vessel. But even then, it'd have to be something large enough to hurt them. Otherwise it'd be a useless (and thus never used) mechanic. --- *Players aren't interested in Variety, they only want THE BEST.*
Xerxes Vorian	Posted - 2009.04.02 21:23:00 - [27] while this would be reeeeeeeealy cool (think ion cannon frigates from homeworld 2), It seems that it is impossible (or very difficult) to implement as the game behaves now. however, bombs and moon probes already fire forwards, so a missile variant of a spinal mounted weapon might be possible, something like <shameless_plug> this </shameless_plug>
Clansworth Good Rock Materials	Posted - 2009.04.02 23:59:00 - [28] I like the idea of the multiplayer charging aspect, though perhaps it could be a deployable object, instead of a shipmounted device? It's rate of fire could be determined by the rate of energy collection (basically, the device has a cap with little/no self recharge, and when the cap gets to a certain level, it fires... now, the problem is how you target the device. Could make logistics ships the best for hi-sec POS takedown... and imagine the effects of carriers in logistics mode charging up these things... oooh. that might work for targeting things.. make them work like sentry drones (bombardment drones?). That way the controlling ship could assign targets. System Influence
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.04.03 02:48:00 - [29] Originally by: Clansworth I like the idea of the multiplayer charging aspect, though perhaps it could be a deployable object, instead of a shipmounted device? It's rate of fire could be determined by the rate of energy collection (basically, the device has a cap with little/no self recharge, and when the cap gets to a certain level, it fires... now, the problem is how you target the device. Could make logistics ships the best for hi-sec POS takedown... and imagine the effects of carriers in logistics mode charging up these things... oooh. that might work for targeting things.. make them work like sentry drones (bombardment drones?). That way the controlling ship could assign targets. this is why you base ship guns on an industrial, kinda makes sense as a frame to retrofit for mobile artillery as they are designed to push heavy loads. my thought would be to agree with the group effort but instead have the other half the group effort having to paint the target. make it a command ship module "Forward Observer Module" or something. the arty would sit at some distance and the target would then show up on the overview when painted with the FO module. a counter balance would be since they would have a 400km range is they popup on the overview when charging/being charged meaning just like reality you would have to defend your artillery emplacements.
Tartarus Spyker	Posted - 2009.04.08 12:10:00 - [30] Well, Mr. Knowitall, do you mean to tell me I can right click an object in space and choose to approach it, but the game doesnt know that im moving towards it? Like I keep continuously saying but some of you fail to read, if you are moving towards the object you generally MUST be facing it! So if your ship is moving towards the target you are able to shoot it.



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