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W-Space "A New Kind Of Hell"

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LadyOfWrath Caldari One Stop Mining Shop One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.03.29 03:56:00 - [1] Edited by: LadyOfWrath on 29/03/2009 04:06:24 Well with the release of a new expansion everyone has hopped into their cov ops and popped into w-space to go, "wow", followed by the explosion of your ship and the rest of your fleet. It was great to try at least once and it was the exact same when the exploration mechanic was first introduced. Many people tried and got ****ed off. Exploration can be very time consuming, frustrating, and for a few full of reward. With T3 introduced many have been eager to begin production of these new ships of glory only to become troubled with parts supply, the gas reaction process, and most of all reverse engineering items. Why is this? We can greatly credit it to the player base saying w-space sucks. Granted we are, as a player base, relatively new to w-space, however with so many players already throwing in the towel I can already see T3 as a widespread item is doomed. Players in general hate gas harvesting with a passion, and I agree a new type of mining ship dedicated to gas harvesting might actually loosen this bottleneck. A ship both able to run Gas Harvesters and able to take severe punishment from sleeper spawns. This ship should have no other use in game, not even ore mining. The next major issue is with so many sites in a compact area in w-space, the recent nerf bat to DSP, and no available history for sites scanning has become total hell in w-space. You basically need a character with very good skills, a cov ops, sisters probes and launcher, and a implant set to even make it worth the time. Now while I agree it needs to be difficult this is a bit much for the player base to deal with. I'm not asking to make it easier, but at least give scanners a way to distinguish things they have already scanned via the scanning interface. If it has already been "pinpointed" a player should be able to toggle it on and off of his/her map. As are as players complaining about piracy in w-space, well I'm sorry you going to learn to deal with it. I don't advocate piracy, but every player knows the risks of w-space. I like to call w-space the "Carebear Educator". I fully support the way w-sapce is utilized by pirates and corporations. Yes this will scare some explorers away, but the problem now is the treasures need to be lucrative enough those same players will brave the pirates to get it. The bottom line here is with the current mechanics T3 prices will never fall to the places CCP intended. Now while some of you may be thinking I am whining about current prices or I cannot afford a T3 ship, you are sorely mistaken. Right now T3 is a luxury only the very rich can afford. I want to see T3 get used regularly in PvP and be replaced daily. I want to see it become yet another major part of the player driven economy. I want T3 to actually become available to the general player base.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.29 05:09:00 - [2] Quote: Granted we are, as a player base, relatively new to w-space, however with so many players already throwing in the towel I can already see T3 as a widespread item is doomed. Players in general hate gas harvesting with a passion, and I agree a new type of mining ship dedicated to gas harvesting might actually loosen this bottleneck. A ship both able to run Gas Harvesters and able to take severe punishment from sleeper spawns. This ship should have no other use in game, not even ore mining. This would be because the vast majority of the playerbase does wormhole exploration like this a) Scan down WH in hisec b) Go through. Scan down sites and run them. Pray that you don't get ganked because you're totally incapable of watching your d-scanner c) Farm the **tiest spawns wormhole space has to offer There are six "Classes" of wormhole space. You're not going to find much good going one wormhole deep from hisec, as you're going to be in the tiest space. Once real wormhole exploration starts getting done, T3 will be a bit more common Quote: The next major issue is with so many sites in a compact area in w-space, the recent nerf bat to DSP, and no available history for sites scanning has become total hell in w-space. You basically need a character with very good skills, a cov ops, sisters probes and launcher, and a implant set to even make it worth the time. Now while I agree it needs to be difficult this is a bit much for the player base to deal with. I'm not asking to make it easier, but at least give scanners a way to distinguish things they have already scanned via the scanning interface. If it has already been "pinpointed" a player should be able to toggle it on and off of his/her map. That's making it easier. One of the skills involved is scanning is interpreting results...it's not hard to look at a hit and say "hmm, that hits runs right next to a site I already scanned down. I'm going to stop scanning it because I know I'm just rescanning the same " Quote: The bottom line here is with the current mechanics T3 prices will never fall to the places CCP intended. Now while some of you may be thinking I am whining about current prices or I cannot afford a T3 ship, you are sorely mistaken. Right now T3 is a luxury only the very rich can afford. I want to see T3 get used regularly in PvP and be replaced daily. I want to see it become yet another major part of the player driven economy. I want T3 to actually become available to the general player base. T3 production is incredibly complex and most people know ** all about properly exploration W-space. You can say nothing about what t3 will be like until things settle down a bit more.
Eftim S'Jet	Posted - 2009.03.29 15:55:00 - [3] The only problem with W-Space is that there isn't much you can do solo (and thus profit). Needing a whole gang of players to get some BPCs is kind of silly, since the profit margin will be so low the players are better off doing god-damned missions or ratting.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.29 17:54:00 - [4] Originally by: Eftim S'Jet The only problem with W-Space is that there isn't much you can do solo (and thus profit). Needing a whole gang of players to get some BPCs is kind of silly, since the profit margin will be so low the players are better off doing god-damned missions or ratting. This post pretty much points out very clearly how people that cannot break free of their old mindsets are NOT going to be able to wrap their heads around W-Space. You do NOT need to fly solo to make a profit in W-Space, quite the contrary actually. The tags alone, collected, sold, and split evenly among a small group are very profitable indeed. Particularly in deeper W-Space. That would require trust and teamwork however, and the mindset of many former mission runners and ratters simply doesn't allow that. The same principal applies to other materials that a group in a W-Space system is likely to find. Stop hoarding all of those materials and sell them on the market. Not everyone is going to be able to have the infrastructure to build T3 from the ground up. That in no way means you can't make a hefty profit. ===== Yeah, VC is back, and we have a bone to pick with you.
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2009.03.29 23:01:00 - [5] It is possible as a lone explorer to actually build T3 stuff. The only thing I had to have help getting was the damn C320 and C540 gasses. Just for the simple fact those clouds spawn 2 Sleepless Sentinels which web/scram and deliver unholy damage.
King Rothgar Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.29 23:07:00 - [6] What I find amusing is people complaining about not being able to solo it, this is an MMO, not a single player game. WTF. Anyways, 2 RR domi's and an Abaddon can solo a class 3 in their sleep. I say that cause we did just that a few hours ago. Even killed a raven and another domi while we were there. Loot was trashy compared to our normal though, we are based in a class 5 system but have been having problems with nothing but gravi's spawning since the patch.
Cpt Jagermeister Aliastra	Posted - 2009.03.30 01:12:00 - [7] Originally by: Eftim S'Jet The only problem with W-Space is that there isn't much you can do solo (and thus profit). Needing a whole gang of players to get some BPCs is kind of silly, since the profit margin will be so low the players are better off doing god-damned missions or ratting. Which goes to show how **ed up those areas of the game are. Risk vs reward lol...... what a myth. Making money afk doing missions ftw...... ** the carebears and fix risk vs reward already /bitter off
AlpacaSolution Caldari Hyperions	Posted - 2009.03.30 01:17:00 - [8] @ T3 Cruisers being used every day and so on. YES! Sounds like awesomness, but it shouldn't be too low in price, like the price of a command ship would be fair IMO but I dunno much about them. I just know they are the most powerful things I've seen in EVE so far for their size, the everyday replacement would be very nice, and to have them open to the public = win. There are no friends in EVE. Just future enemies.
Sashi Romanenko Caldari GIT-R-DUN Southern Connection	Posted - 2009.03.30 06:19:00 - [9] I see alot of whining, especially by the topic starter and some of the replies. Just like 0.0...which, coincidentally, w-space IS... to make a real profit off of it requires trust between a corporation and the ability to share things. People get so caught up in the isk/hour thing that they lose sight of whats really fun in Eve: Working with some mates to accomplish a goal. Often times you'll find that even though the destination you plotted may not exactly lead you there, the journey was a hell of a ride. In other words... lighten up Francis, it's a f-ing game.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.03.30 06:29:00 - [10] Because you have to be making a profit to enjoy yourself while playing a game of internet spaceships. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008

Romus Al'maar	Posted - 2009.04.07 01:06:00 - [11] Originally by: Sashi Romanenko I see alot of whining, especially by the topic starter and some of the replies. Just like 0.0...which, coincidentally, w-space IS... to make a real profit off of it requires trust between a corporation and the ability to share things. Exactly! I am not in huge alliance, quite small actually, and we have been able to setup a few, yes a few, large POS. Mining gas and taking on sleeper plexes, the isk is actully extremely good even when you split it 5 or 6 ways. Oh and its a blast to do something with my friends that is challenging and new Best upgrade to EVE since I joined 18 months ago.
Derus Grobb Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2009.04.08 10:49:00 - [12] Exploration is not so bad. I have astrometrics 4 and the others at 3 and am able to scan the sites in a reasonable amount of time. You get used to the signal strength of the different signatures and hone in accordingly. Your assertion that you need sisters stuff and implants is bull****. Apocrypha has only been out for a short time, of course T3 prices are going to fall below their current level. ---
Psihius Caldari Atomic Scrapyard	Posted - 2009.04.08 11:11:00 - [13] LadyOfWrath Get a gang and go out there. It's fun, it's teamwork, it's hard. We like it! I enjoy to fly a gang of passive-fitted drakes into W-space :) Maxing out drake probably will give us ability to run Core complexes :)
Cailais Amarr Diablo Advocatus	Posted - 2009.04.08 11:30:00 - [14] Overall I think wspace is working pretty well - it's new and it willtake time for players to adapt to it. The only alterations I would advocate is to add 'regular' npcs to the gravimetric sites and increase the frequency of K - K worm holes. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Miyamoto Uroki Caldari Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.08 13:31:00 - [15] For reasonable prices of tech3 cruisers there needs to be something done about gas harvesting, thats currently the only bottleneck as it simply takes TOO LONG to mine the gas needed for a cruiser. So a specialized ship would be nice, or simply reduce volume of gas or highten the gas harvester yield. Apart from that, there might be some balancing of volume of loot drops needed across the wh classes. Not finding a single relic in class 1 to 3 but finding 20 in a single plex in a class 5 or 6 system is maybe not that balanced yet.
Vincent Jarjadian	Posted - 2009.04.08 18:35:00 - [16] Both t3 and wormholes are relatively new, yes at the moment the prices are very high, but as more people expand into wormhole exploration prices will come down. Give it time to get running, when orcas were first introduced people were paying huge sums for them, now the market has settled down. The super rich want to control anything new so that will always fuel the initial boom. I think the skill point loss will be a bigger problem for t3 ship usage.
ollobrains Caldari State Inc.	Posted - 2009.04.09 03:02:00 - [17] prices for sale legions are now down to 1.5b were 3b early on and quickly fell to 2b. Matierals are dropping in price so signs are good The factors warping to 100km and getting 0km and unclaokded in a cov ops is a big turn off. Bugged non despawning of collapsed holes and cosmic sigs in empire is anothe rissue
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.04.09 03:48:00 - [18] Tech 3 will never become that cheap, it isn't farmable easy access mass production on tap like tech 1 and tech 2. if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature.
The Cuckoo	Posted - 2009.04.09 11:28:00 - [19] I think you're all overlooking one massive problem. Very few people are willing to enter a wormhole that says it has less than a day before it disappears, and very few people will enter one that has been disrupted by ships passing through it. If people could better gauge how many ships they could send through, and for how long, they'd more then likely be willing to use them more. As it is at the moment, most people will only enter a wormhole if it's completely fresh.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.04.10 16:52:00 - [20] Quote: There are six "Classes" of wormhole space. You're not going to find much good going one wormhole deep from hisec, as you're going to be in the **tiest space. Once real wormhole exploration starts getting done, T3 will be a bit more common You are wrong here. For some completely inexplicable reason (at least for me, a relatively new player), CCP made a VERY well rounded economy except for THE one stop way to make safe money: level 4 missioning. They nerfed other imbalanced issues so many times, yet no one including you and CCP seem noticing how every single new feature, every single new game avenue are instantly compared and dismissed before the L4 mission gods. So, yes, those chaps enter a level 1 WH and find it "hard / not worth the effort" etc, etc, but this because there's always the failsafe L4 chicken with the golden eggs ready. Until something is not done, almost no one is going to stick into the WH adventure, because it just does not cut it at level 1, figures at > level 3 where you can't AFK solo it with the usual CNR. Problem is, WHs are seen as mostly PvE (bar the occasional pirate) but those who usually do PvE have nearer, zero risk, comparable ISK (vs the bother + risk of WH) rewards. So they'll just stick doing L4s. Quote: What I find amusing is people complaining about not being able to solo it, this is an MMO, not a single player game. WTF. Bears are self-centered solo-ists. Look at L4s, there's really nothing new under the sun. You are not going to see widespread WH fleet operations exactly like you don't see widespread 0.0 fleet mission operations. They got the precious high sec, no risk, year-beaten path at how to kill MOBs with the best profit. Quote:** Just like 0.0...which, coincidentally, w-space IS... to make a real profit off of it requires trust between a corporation and the ability to share things. But WHs "cap" early. They are still 0.0 (thus the risk and effort) but below level 4 they are not really worth that much. I found i.e. much less worthwhile minerals in the many WH grav sites than in high sec and high sec grav sites (not counting high sec belts are readily warped with no effort, the rats can be soloed in a Retriever with T1 drones). People are not going to lose ships, spend in POSes, have an harsh path to k-space when they can't even find comparable minerals unless they go heavy and go in level >= 4 w-space. Going "heavy" is something the recipients of w-space (small corps) won't do, they don't have enough concurrent players online to always have a decent fleet. On the other side, outside the little time they could field a fleet, you have hours and hours you can't do anything if you are too few online. Sure, you can go and be owned at the gate camp at the end of your 0.0 WH exit but still...

rubico1337	Posted - 2009.04.10 23:11:00 - [21] Originally by: The Cuckoo I think you're all overlooking one massive problem. Very few people are willing to enter a wormhole that says it has less than a day before it disappears, and very few people will enter one that has been disrupted by ships passing through it. If people could better gauge how many ships they could send through, and for how long, they'd more then likely be willing to use them more. As it is at the moment, most people will only enter a wormhole if it's completely fresh. so you want to somehow guaranteed that you will get out the same we you go in? for god sakes fit a probe launcher or go back to lvl 4 missions. less supply means higher prices for me
Nedena	Posted - 2009.04.12 15:29:00 - [22] Originally by: Psihius LadyOfWrath Get a gang and go out there. It's fun, it's teamwork, it's hard. We like it! I enjoy to fly a gang of passive-fitted drakes into W-space :) Maxing out drake probably will give us ability to run Core complexes :) I think you are a bit overconfident in the drake greatness.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.12 15:51:00 - [23] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha For some completely inexplicable reason (at least for me, a relatively new player), CCP made a VERY well rounded economy except for THE one stop way to make safe money: level 4 missioning. They nerfed other imbalanced issues so many times, yet no one including you and CCP seem noticing how every single new feature, every single new game avenue are instantly compared and dismissed before the L4 mission gods. Apparently its so much fun to fight sleepers you wont care about isk/time or isk/risk. Any day now the market will be flooded by t3 items from the fun exploring. And yea this is my sig. Real PVP'ers only use f1.
Terrapin Caldari	Posted - 2009.04.12 15:54:00 - [24] Originally by: The Cuckoo I think you're all overlooking one massive problem. Very few people are willing to enter a wormhole that says it has less than a day before it disappears, and very few people will enter one that has been disrupted by ships passing through it. If people could better gauge how many ships they could send through, and for how long, they'd more then likely be willing to use them more. As it is at the moment, most people will only enter a wormhole if it's completely fresh. My main issue with w-space is the way it was designed to cater griefers and its lack of proper documentation. I.e.; On trying to return to regular space a wormhole produced the 'info' message: "(info) For some reason the wormhole refuses to let you through" This is completely undocumented (go ahead, google it). Which part of this message is supposed to be informative also remains a mystery. Even more stupidly; it produces the message in a pop-up which prevents proper reaction to hostilities. This poor design cost me a ship and left me floating in a pod in w-space. Self-destructing will cost me another multiple hundreds of millions in isk for implant+clone. (more than I own) So I've been floating in w-space in a pod for over a month now. I petitioned this (in my opinion) design flaw, but was told by CCP it works as intended. This is completely unacceptable for me and therefore I have decided to cancel my subscription. Terrapin signing off. ---
J Valkor Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.04.12 19:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Terrapin Originally by: The Cuckoo I think you're all overlooking one massive problem. Very few people are willing to enter a wormhole that says it has less than a day before it disappears, and very few people will enter one that has been disrupted by ships passing through it. If people could better gauge how many ships they could send through, and for how long, they'd more then likely be willing to use them more. As it is at the moment, most people will only enter a wormhole if it's completely fresh. My main issue with w-space is the way it was designed to cater griefers and its lack of proper documentation. I.e.; On trying to return to regular space a wormhole produced the 'info' message: "(info) For some reason the wormhole refuses to let you through" This is completely undocumented (go ahead, google it). Which part of this message is supposed to be informative also remains a mystery. Even more stupidly; it produces the message in a pop-up which prevents proper reaction to hostilities. This poor design cost me a ship and left me floating in a pod in w-space. Self-destructing will cost me another multiple hundreds of millions in isk for implant+clone. (more than I own) So I've been floating in w-space in a pod for over a month now. I petitioned this (in my opinion) design flaw, but was told by CCP it works as intended. This is completely unacceptable for me and therefore I have decided to cancel my subscription. Terrapin signing off. Why did you go into W-space with a head full of +5's? With no possible help? Were the blogs not clear enough that YOU CANNOT LEAVE without a scanner?
Mashie Saldana Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.04.12 21:17:00 - [26] Originally by: Esmenet Apparently its so much fun to fight sleepers you wont care about isk/time or isk/risk. Any day now the market will be flooded by t3 items from the fun exploring. Actually it is quite fun to fight Sleepers. You will probably make more ISK/h farming level 4's at zero risk but how mindnumbing boring isn't that?
Avion Saberis Gallente Zodiac Guardians GARDIAN ALLIANCE	Posted - 2009.04.12 21:33:00 - [27] w-space, it's soo much fun, as long as you don't get stuck for 8hrs in one, lol. with only your pod. lol Though i would like to see it open to the mass, t3 that is, i also know that the prices are coming down. not as much, but really give this about 5 months and half of the ppl in eve will be flying this. So sure some things suck, the sleepers suck super donkey balls, but hey when you get a team together, ya really can have some fun. and personally when ever i go on missions with other ppl, i go for the bounty and the standings, i don't care much for the items. oh well. lets all go into w-space and go pew-pew or be podded, haha ------------------------------------------- I like to hide, then when the right moment comes, i go pew, pew, pew, then i go back to hiding, :)
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.04.12 23:22:00 - [28] Originally by: Terrapin Originally by: The Cuckoo I think you're all overlooking one massive problem. Very few people are willing to enter a wormhole that says it has less than a day before it disappears, and very few people will enter one that has been disrupted by ships passing through it. If people could better gauge how many ships they could send through, and for how long, they'd more then likely be willing to use them more. As it is at the moment, most people will only enter a wormhole if it's completely fresh. My main issue with w-space is the way it was designed to cater griefers and its lack of proper documentation. I.e.; On trying to return to regular space a wormhole produced the 'info' message: "(info) For some reason the wormhole refuses to let you through" This is completely undocumented (go ahead, google it). Which part of this message is supposed to be informative also remains a mystery. Even more stupidly; it produces the message in a pop-up which prevents proper reaction to hostilities. This poor design cost me a ship and left me floating in a pod in w-space. Self-destructing will cost me another multiple hundreds of millions in isk for implant+clone. (more than I own) So I've been floating in w-space in a pod for over a month now. I petitioned this (in my opinion) design flaw, but was told by CCP it works as intended. This is completely unacceptable for me and therefore I have decided to cancel my subscription. Terrapin signing off. This is what makes Eve so great. It breaks the will of the weak. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.04.12 23:28:00 - [29] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/04/2009 23:30:05 nvm
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.04.12 23:30:00 - [30] I was about to write something else, but this got me chuckling so much I forgot what I was gonna say Originally by: Bellum Eternus This is what makes Eve so great. It breaks the will of the weak. Can I have that for my bio? Should actually be the standard answer to every whinepost...



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