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using macros, an ethical question and my personal perspective

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stoicfaux	Posted - 2009.03.29 21:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Darek Castigatus The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? So it's okay to support botting/macroing, but only when it helps you and your corporation? Tammany Hall, Enron Scandal, Sub-prime mortgage lending crisis, Rockefellor, Stock Market Crash of 1929, Tulip Mania, South Sea Bubble, Madoff's Ponzi scheme, Rail Barons, etc.. Have you considered running for public office? You seem to have the moral elasticity that many people would support, where "people" == "people willing to pay/support/gift you to look the other way as they illegally/immorally make tons of money for themselves". Just be sure to get what you can while you can, before the scheme is discovered.
Trader20	Posted - 2009.03.30 01:52:00 - [32] Originally by: stoicfaux Originally by: Darek Castigatus The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? So it's okay to support botting/macroing, but only when it helps you and your corporation? Tammany Hall, Enron Scandal, Sub-prime mortgage lending crisis, Rockefellor, Stock Market Crash of 1929, Tulip Mania, South Sea Bubble, Madoff's Ponzi scheme, Rail Barons, etc.. Have you considered running for public office? You seem to have the moral elasticity that many people would support, where "people" == "people willing to pay/support/gift you to look the other way as they illegally/immorally make tons of money for themselves". Just be sure to get what you can while you can, before the scheme is discovered. Ouch u hurt my ehonor by calling me a cheater ....I'll take the money and u can keep ur honor. Money over morales.
mechtech Entropy Industries	Posted - 2009.03.30 02:06:00 - [33] no, he should be banned. And if the corporation isn't successful without a 23/7 macro miner fueling it, it should be disbanded. If you care about the corp, make sure that your profits are legit.
Mari Katarin	Posted - 2009.03.30 04:16:00 - [34] Does your contribution to a corp whose achievements are at least partly through cheating have meaning? If I were in your shoes I'd be more than a little upset. This is a game. If I (and by extension, the corp I belong to) do well I want my "score" to be achieved through skill, smarts, tact, diplomacy and ... in-game mechanics. Not the MMO equivalent of a wallhack aimbot. Finding out several years later that my accomplishments have been at best tainted and at worst rendered meaningless by a EULA-violating hack would have me rather angry at someone, both in and out of game.
Amitious Turkey Gallente Ammo Tech Inc	Posted - 2009.03.30 04:29:00 - [35] Edited by: Amitious Turkey on 30/03/2009 04:34:43 Originally by: Sir Elliot In a game like Eve Online, the second a person logs in they freely to consent to allowing anything to happen to them by anyone. For that reason, outside of Role Playing circles, there is no morality in Eve. By the nature and design of the game, you freely consent to all activity by logging in. The only governing mechanism becomes the EULA and CCP's rules. It is not a matter of moral or immoral, since the nature of the game is about playing in a world that doesn't have those categories. It's about a violation of the EULA or not. Your question is stupid because it is literally non-sensical. Justification, moral activity, etc, don't exist in Eve. The reality of your question is: Do I have a moral obligation to report an EULA violation? Your benefiting from it is irrelevant. That is an Out of Game Matter, not an in-game matter. Further, the EULA is a private agreement between CCP and the other party. The EULA is not an agreement between CCP, you, and the other party. The answer is simple: Circle YES if CCP has required you to uphold the EULA for them, or if you work for CCP, or for some other reason are obliged to report violations of the EULA. Circle NO if otherwise. Hmm, philosophical. Whether or not to follow a rule could be considered a moral action...So whether or not to obey CCP by upholding the EULA could be considered in the realm of right and wrong, because it hurts the game and therefore the livelihoods of those who work at CCP (should macroing destroy the game). Thus, macroing CAN affect the real world. Also, macroing is considered cheating. Cheating is, in the real world, immoral. It affects the real world. Just because it's in a game doesn't make it amoral, since CCP is not the ultimate authority who makes morals. Just like cheating at cards...or bigger things. Morals aren't arbitrary, they are set in stone...regardless of where you are. They just don't have (many) RL consequences. So, to the OP... You're obligated to report him, unfortunately. Taking the right road is never easy (\_/) (O.o) (> <) The writer of the article did not quote himself- Cortes
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2009.03.30 04:48:00 - [36] well this has been an interesting read, thanks to all who contributed, even if it was just to call me a hypocrite and my corpmate a cheat. To answer the person who asked what i was going to do i guess it should really be what im not going to do. Im not going to report this, feel free to call me hypocritical if you want to (hell some of you already have). The reason is simple - i dont **** on my friends simply because they do things i disagree with. If there was a life at stake or if there was genuine harm being done to another person then it would be different but this isnt that situation and the question of when it becomes that situation is a debate i really dont feel like having right now. One final point i would like to address, I dont feel the corp we helped build is in any way devalued by the isk we received from this character because i know just how much work dedicated players have put in to making it what it is now. The isk doesnt matter and never has mattered, what matters is what people put of themselves into it. Anyway its late and im tired and rambling, ill leave it at that.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.30 05:27:00 - [37] Quote: # # You are ruining my game, stop it! - If I donÆt sell the ISK I make but instead use it to purchase items, buy skill books or produce them then IÆm helping the economy, not hurting./li> Horrible fail. "Helping the economy" is not necessarily making the gameplay any better. In fact, it makes it worse, stuff becomes too cheap. If it would really help gameplay, why not ask CCP to double the refine yield from all ores?
Securitas Protector Final Conflict UK Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.03.30 05:42:00 - [38] Good to see our articles are being read.
Cyhawk	Posted - 2009.03.30 05:47:00 - [39] Originally by: Feilamya Originally by: Cors Theres a differance between a macro and a bot. Most people who say "macros" really mean "bots". If you use these two words "correctly", you are part of a minority. Unless you want to waste time and energy by correcting people over and over again, it's better to just figure out what they mean and pretend they used the right word for it. Don't try to fight ignorance. You can't win! Quoted for truth
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.30 06:16:00 - [40] The guy has ONE thing right : if a game makes you want to use a macro/bot/whatever, and such a macro/bot/whatever is reasonably easy (as opposed to "difficult", not as opposed to "takes long") to code, then it's not the "cheater" that deserves to be despised, it's the game mechanics that needs a hefty dose of revamping. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Ranik Sandaris Caldari The Centurions Eternus Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.30 07:15:00 - [41] Originally by: Trader20 Ouch u hurt my ehonor by calling me a cheater ....I'll take the money and u can keep ur honor. Money over morales. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAbreathes BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA im sorry, but really? How old are you?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2009.03.30 07:24:00 - [42] Originally by: Darek Castigatus i know just how much work dedicated players have put in to making it what it is now. Not quite enough? - DesuSigs
Bimjo Caldari SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2009.03.30 07:33:00 - [43] Originally by: Trader20 A snitch is no better then the person committing the crime. Mind ur own business. Really ? I have only ever heard/seen prisoners say that on the TV You are typical,you will believe your rabble until something nasty happens to you or yours,then it will be ok to snitch to catch the perpetrator ====================
Darathor Omegie	Posted - 2009.03.30 07:50:00 - [44] Originally by: Sir Elliot In a game like Eve Online, the second a person logs in they freely to consent to allowing anything to happen to them by anyone. For that reason, outside of Role Playing circles, there is no morality in Eve. By the nature and design of the game, you freely consent to all activity by logging in. The only governing mechanism becomes the EULA and CCP's rules. It is not a matter of moral or immoral, since the nature of the game is about playing in a world that doesn't have those categories. It's about a violation of the EULA or not. Your question is stupid because it is literally non-sensical. Justification, moral activity, etc, don't exist in Eve. The reality of your question is: Do I have a moral obligation to report an EULA violation? Your benefiting from it is irrelevant. That is an Out of Game Matter, not an in-game matter. Further, the EULA is a private agreement between CCP and the other party. The EULA is not an agreement between CCP, you, and the other party. The answer is simple: Circle YES if CCP has required you to uphold the EULA for them, or if you work for CCP, or for some other reason are obliged to report violations of the EULA. Circle NO if otherwise. wow. It is called being "human". When you see something wrong you try to right it. You know the part of the brain responcibile for right or wrong? I suppose frued could be right, how we play games is often a reflection of how we live and who we really are..
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.03.30 08:13:00 - [45] Originally by: Darek Castigatus The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Of course not. Originally by: Darek Castigatus Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? Discuss. Not hunting down your buddy and justifying his alt are two different things. Macroing is cheating - that's all there is to it. He cheats. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Can't Decide Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.03.30 08:31:00 - [46] Originally by: Akita T The guy has ONE thing right : if a game makes you want to use a macro/bot/whatever, and such a macro/bot/whatever is reasonably easy (as opposed to "difficult", not as opposed to "takes long") to code, then it's not the "cheater" that deserves to be despised, it's the game mechanics that needs a hefty dose of revamping. yes! exactly that! do you think CCP will ever do it?
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.30 08:40:00 - [47] Originally by: Akita T The guy has ONE thing right : if a game makes you want to use a macro/bot/whatever, and such a macro/bot/whatever is reasonably easy (as opposed to "difficult", not as opposed to "takes long") to code, then it's not the "cheater" that deserves to be despised, it's the game mechanics that needs a hefty dose of revamping. This is actually a fair point, and it's one of the reasons I'm so pleased with W-space - that enironment is MUCH harder to macro/multi-farm. Moar of that please, CCP!
Tallaran Kouros Caldari Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.30 10:34:00 - [48] Originally by: Trader20 A snitch is no better then the person committing the crime. Mind ur own business. I just read this and went "WTF?". So if someone saw a ****, knew the rapist and was the sole witness, that person coming forward and reporting the crime is as bad as the rapist and should mind their own business? Didn't think so.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.03.30 11:22:00 - [49] Botting ISK farmers hurt people like me who work hard to farm the ISK to pay our GTCs. If you want the easy money, sell GTC like Siigari does. Or keep botting for your ISK and push EVE closer and closer to NPC corps not being restricted to T1 ships in the frigate, destroyer and cruiser class only.
Avaleric Amarr SC Special Circumstances	Posted - 2009.03.30 12:31:00 - [50] A sad little post (the linked one). The OP cheats, and then uses a lot of space trying to justify it. It's a simple as that. I'm sure he's an inspiration for his children. - Ignorance is bliss...
Rordan D'Kherr	Posted - 2009.03.30 12:41:00 - [51] Buying ISK is worse than macro mining. If there is demand, there will be supply. Either from 'EVE player' or any other.
Angry Poster	Posted - 2009.03.30 13:04:00 - [52] My god where should I start...that article is so full of fail that it's dripping on the floor. First the author claims that the prices of minerals increased because the macro cheaters had to adapt their code. In the next paragraph he claims that his macro cheating doesn't have an influence on the economy. Imo this is just a bad attempt by a cheater to legitimize his blatant disrespect for the EULA/ToS and the fact that he's braking the economy of the game for his own benefits. I agree that EVE is not a "fair" game. You can cheat people, you can spy, you can scam but these things are only acceptable if they happen within the frame work (sand box) that CCP has laid out for us. Running 5 accounts 23/7 to gain an advantage over other people is definately not within the frame work that CCP has provided. What happens because of these cheaters is that everyone is basically forced to do the same if they want to stand a chance against an alliance/corp of cheaters. EVE is a competitive game where the weak get **d by the strong and if certain "strong" people are only "strong" because they cheat then that means that everyone that wishes to be competitive also has to start to cheat. This would totally ** up the economy and it would be even harder to earn ISK without cheating so even more people would start which would make it even harder to earn ISK and so on... in the end you'd become a second class citizen if you don't cheat. This problem is not exclusive to macro cheating either... I remember a case where censored alliance exploited a bug for 8 months that allowed the Overseer of 10/10 plexes to respawn every 50 minutes instead of 24h. I don't even want to imagine the amount of ISK that was cheated this way. Now since ISK means power (to a great extent) this can be pretty game breaking... How do you fight a cheating alliance that you know can replace any loss (no matter if it's a titan, dread, mom etc.) 50 times over while your alliance has to spend huge amounts of time on earning the ISK to finance their war efforts. And I'm not even getting into the fact that most ISK farmed by macros is sold for real money... thats a different problem entirely. Imo as long as it's not forbidden in the EULA/ToS then it's fine but anything else is cheating and should be prevented by any (reasonable) means possible (short of installing spyware of my PC like World of Warcraft does - thats going a little to far for my taste.) I hope your macro using friend get his account(s) banned and all assets that can be traced to him deleted. Thats what should have been done after the 10/10-complex-exploit (but I don't think CCP every took any action beyond banning the offenders and totally ignored the fact that they had basically single-handedly financed an entire alliance). I can only hope that CCP gives miners some love by making mining more interesting (and less easy to macro).
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:32:00 - [53] well it seems i now have several farms worth of egg on my face as i have been informed that the character is not what i believed it to be. Turns out its a hauling alt that macro mines when it isnt being used for operations. Probably doesnt change what people would say anyway but i felt i should inform you. For what its worth i apologise to the forum for posting misleading initial information .
Trader20	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:40:00 - [54] Originally by: Tallaran Kouros Originally by: Trader20 A snitch is no better then the person committing the crime. Mind ur own business. I just read this and went "WTF?". So if someone saw a ****, knew the rapist and was the sole witness, that person coming forward and reporting the crime is as bad as the rapist and should mind their own business? Didn't think so. Yea, wat part of mind ur own business dont u understand. I guess u want to be captain planet and save the world or something .....
Drake Stormweaver Caldari Blueprint Haus Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.03.30 19:17:00 - [55] Teenage or troll? Or a tenaged troll?
Hiro Tanizaki	Posted - 2009.03.30 19:17:00 - [56] Without judging people on the use of macros, I will never understand why people would get a game, just to not play it.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.30 19:23:00 - [57] Originally by: Trader20 Originally by: Tallaran Kouros Originally by: Trader20 A snitch is no better then the person committing the crime. Mind ur own business. I just read this and went "WTF?". So if someone saw a ****, knew the rapist and was the sole witness, that person coming forward and reporting the crime is as bad as the rapist and should mind their own business? Didn't think so. Yea, wat part of mind ur own business dont u understand. I guess u want to be captain planet and save the world or something ..... What part of anything that affects the game economy is everyone's business are you too prepubescent to understand?
BillyBob Esq	Posted - 2009.03.30 19:59:00 - [58] Aren't you just the hypocrite OP. I like how you open with "I'm against macro's" (though as other have pointed out its bots that we're really talking about here) and finish with "is it still wrong if I benefit from it?" Originally by: Darek Castigatus The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? Why would you buy an account, go through the effort of setting up a bot, and leave it running on a computer somewhere all day every day when you could just buy the ISK online. Same result but you get to be even more lazy, money for nothing, but even less effort. There aren't many rules in Eve, and the one's that exist are pretty lax, but itÆs understood that when people do something itÆs a person doing it. That's the friggen point of MMO. So if I made a hypothetical bot that could pod you anywhere anytime, that would benefit me, so by your logic it would be fine. That's kind of ridicules idea though. LetÆs say instead I somehow made a bot that just pumped out a battleship every five minutes and all I did was hunt you down every time you were on, and you could never actually stop me because as soon as I was dead I'd be back thirty seconds later in fresh ship. I'm benefiting from this. That would be a complicated bot controlling a huge number of industrial characters. So letÆs make it simpler, letÆs say I had a bot that generated unlimited money, so my industrial capabilities are effectively unlimited, meaning unlimited ships. Almost like a mining bot. Yeah, eve sounds really fun when it's put like that
Sun Clausewitz	Posted - 2009.03.30 19:59:00 - [59] Well, then having a Falcon Alt and Hauling Alt, and tading alt all have effects in the game economy too. Maybe CCP should go to a no alt thing, 1 account = 1 char not three. Play with your main!
zombeee Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.03.30 20:35:00 - [60] Edited by: zombeee on 30/03/2009 20:47:04 Trader20: Assuming you don't sell the ISK you make, all you do in the game is worthless. You're not even playing the same game as the rest, because you cheat. Every victory of any type, PvP, market, or ISK-wise, over other players (or even NPCs) is made worthless by the fact that you play a game with different rules.. The only thing that is saving you is that other players can't know that you cheat. If you don't understand why that's pathetic, You're immature and you attach way too much importance to this game. (it's just a "fricken" game, remember) You're wasting 15$ a month (or a lot of time) paying for a game that doesn't exist. and you're devaluing the actual game for people who want to play it. If you want to argue that the game DOES exists, that's sociopathy.

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