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using macros, an ethical question and my personal perspective

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Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2009.03.29 14:17:00 - [1] http://www.eve-mag.com/wordpress/archives/the-sky-is-falling reading this article and and its comment got me thinking about my personal views on macro use and its effects. Its slanted somewhat towards macroing in EVE hence why i put it here rather than in out of pod. I come down quite heavily on the anti macro side of the spectrum and agree with most of the anti macro points raised in the articles comments, however i also believe that there is another side to it which im my opinion wasnt really addressed. Consider the following scenario, a character with a 23/7 macro mining alt. Now normally i would consider this a bad thing because of the afore mentioned views on macroing in general. However the character uses the isk his alt generates to help support a corporation which i have been a part of for almost 2 years. He also tirelessly works to ensure that the corp continues to thrive and is an active participant in alliance diplomacy and corp operations. The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? Discuss.
Cat o'Ninetails Rancer Defence League	Posted - 2009.03.29 14:19:00 - [2] Originally by: Darek Castigatus The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? Discuss. So the end justifies the means? No, you are not right. Have the courage of your convictions. You are passivly condoning what is effectively cheating. visit my blog for my adventures
Droog 1	Posted - 2009.03.29 14:32:00 - [3] Originally by: Darek Castigatus Consider the following scenario, a character with a 23/7 macro mining alt. Now normally i would consider this a bad thing because of the afore mentioned views on macroing in general. However the character uses the isk his alt generates to help support a corporation which i have been a part of for almost 2 years. He also tirelessly works to ensure that the corp continues to thrive and is an active participant in alliance diplomacy and corp operations. It doesn't matter where the Isk goes. Your friend is a lowlife cheat and you should report him. You know this is against the EULA and havn't done anything to stop him/her. CCP should ask you for details and if you don't give them the details your account should be banned too.
Sir Elliot	Posted - 2009.03.29 14:39:00 - [4] In a game like Eve Online, the second a person logs in they freely to consent to allowing anything to happen to them by anyone. For that reason, outside of Role Playing circles, there is no morality in Eve. By the nature and design of the game, you freely consent to all activity by logging in. The only governing mechanism becomes the EULA and CCP's rules. It is not a matter of moral or immoral, since the nature of the game is about playing in a world that doesn't have those categories. It's about a violation of the EULA or not. Your question is stupid because it is literally non-sensical. Justification, moral activity, etc, don't exist in Eve. The reality of your question is: Do I have a moral obligation to report an EULA violation? Your benefiting from it is irrelevant. That is an Out of Game Matter, not an in-game matter. Further, the EULA is a private agreement between CCP and the other party. The EULA is not an agreement between CCP, you, and the other party. The answer is simple: Circle YES if CCP has required you to uphold the EULA for them, or if you work for CCP, or for some other reason are obliged to report violations of the EULA. Circle NO if otherwise.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.03.29 14:56:00 - [5] Morals are arbitrary. So one can simply say, as macro use is against the EULA, using them is immoral. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.03.29 14:59:00 - [6] A while ago I read a post by someone who claimed to suffer from arthritis in the hands. He was saying that for special cases like him macro's should be allowed and I agree but to allow someone who cheats just because he's lazy is no excuse. Even in the case of people who have a valid claim it should be investigated carefully, through the submission of some form of letter or note from a practitioner or specialist. While this is intrusive losing a character with 50m sp after years of investment is, in itself, but this is a rare case and will never become the norm.
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Can't Decide Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.03.29 15:01:00 - [7] Edited by: Ak''athra J''ador on 29/03/2009 15:01:45 say there is another person who has an alt with which he makes money. he also uses that money for his corporation and is actively involved in alliance politics. there is one dfference however from the person you know. this person does not own a macro. he spends all the hours he can working so that he makes money for his corp. but because of people using macros, his work is worth a lot less. if he spends it mining, he will make a lot less money as the price of ore is low, because it is determined by the supply and demand ratio. and supply is high, because there are people, with macros, mining their harts away all the time, that is why ore is worth very little. you see macros have a very large effect on eve, larger then you imagine. its not just some people having it easy having lots of isk, and its not just some people selling isk and making RL money. by producing lots of goods in the game they have an enormous effect on the market. and by doing that, a new player who starts playing eve, and happens to find the mining profession interesting is doomed to stop playing because he will make very little isk and will not be able to progress in the game. now you know how people whine that lvl 4 agents are worth to much? now imagine a macro running lvl 4 missions all day long. now think of the effect that has on the LP store and the ore and salvage market. it makes it harder for all the people who try to make isk. and it gives ships and modules totally wrong prices. yes, stuff should be far more expensive. do you want to know the fun part? CCP knows, and has decide to not do crap about it. ok, maybe i am wrong, maybe they have a plan, but so far, nothing has ever been done. actually that is also a lie. what CCP does is they allow macros. they do not ban them unless people get really rallied up over one guy and then they ban one account. what they do is they delete all isk which is bought through the isk sellers. this way they get subscriptions from all accounts. from the idiot who bough the isk and from the guy who sold the isk. now the guy who sold the isk is happy, he got his RL money, and he will keep running his N accounts with macros and keep making isk. CCP is happy, they get the subscription from the sellers and the buyers. the only guy not happy is the guy who bough the isk, but he is an idiot anyhow and we don't care for him. WRONG! the rest of the community is also not happy (it just doesn't know it) as all the resources produced by the macroers will stay in the game, and ruin the economy. some REALLY simple software should be made to detect macros and ban them. nothing complicated. yes, this will not remove all the macros, but it will remove most macros. the ones that stay wont have a large effect anyhow. thing is, at a certain point, somebody at CCP, probably got a figure predicting how many macroers there are in the game. then he realized how much money they would lose each month, not even considering all the people which would quit once all the stuff got more expensive. and CCP obviously decided, ****it, just let them be. now i hope i am wrong about the last part, i hope that there is a plan. but i doubt it. because honestly, there is no point for CCP to do it. just let the people cheat, its not like the community is going to get angry and emo rage quit. personally, i think its stupid that there is absolutely no protection against macros, and that somebody who finished high school can make a simple mining macro in a few hours or a mission bot in a few weeks. actually, i do not know what the policy on these forums is. Can i just link any site? can i write anything as long as it is polite? or would my posts get censured, and my accounts banned because i would write something CCP doesn't like? does CCP ban accounts because of what they do or say on the forums?
Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.03.29 15:16:00 - [8] Macroing is kind of like non consensual pvp against CCP.
Dmian Gallente Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2009.03.29 15:23:00 - [9] Edited by: Dmian on 29/03/2009 15:24:38 People cheat, all the time. In RL and in games. People lie, all the time. In RL and in games. People cheating lies about it, all the time, in RL and in games. Does it care? It depends. In RL maybe, as some of the cheating/lying might have serious consecuences. In a game? Not really. Specially in a game were killing another characters is encouraged. Were piracy is encouraged. So it's up to you to decide. Every player in this game is mature enough to decide if they cheat or not. And should be mature enough to face the consecuences of cheating. We are speculative beings. We always try to take advantage of any situation. So you are speculating about doing something that may hinder your gaming. Will you report the player and damage your playing? Is EVE's community more important than your own gaming experience? Will you put the community's interest before your own? After all, EVE's full of macroers, right? I'd love to see what's your decision about this. ---- Originally by: Anne M. Lindbergh There is no sin punished more implacably by nature than the sin of resistance to change
Bonhomme Carnaval	Posted - 2009.03.29 15:24:00 - [10] Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails Originally by: Darek Castigatus The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? Discuss. So the end justifies the means? No, you are not right. Have the courage of your convictions. You are passivly condoning what is effectively cheating. ITT : Cat meant to post with her main and ends up typing well, with capitalizations and all. Of course, the most important thing to notice in this discussion is that here on the forums, there's really no way of telling when you've stopped reading someone's post and started the sig.
Trader20	Posted - 2009.03.29 15:38:00 - [11] Edited by: Trader20 on 29/03/2009 15:41:09 Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails Originally by: Darek Castigatus The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? Discuss. So the end justifies the means? No, you are not right. Have the courage of your convictions. You are passivly condoning what is effectively cheating. Cat you need to relax and just let ppl do what they want. Your not the epolice so stfu. Their is no ethics, morales, ehonor, etc, ITS A FRICKEN GAME!!!! All the macro whiners, stfu, they not hurting u personally and stop trying to be the epolice u enarks. PPL who tell on on other ppl for cheating are stupid.
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Can't Decide Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.03.29 15:46:00 - [12] Originally by: Trader20 Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails Originally by: Darek Castigatus The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? Discuss. So the end justifies the means? No, you are not right. Have the courage of your convictions. You are passivly condoning what is effectively cheating. Cat you need to relax and just let ppl do what they want. Their is no ethics, morales, ehonor, etc, ITS A FRICKEN GAME!!!! All the macro whiners, stfu, they not hurting u personally and stop trying to be the epolice u enarks. actually you are wrong. they do hurt everyone. because of the massive impact they have on the economy. when you are making isk (whatever it is you do) you make a lot less because of them (unless you are a pirate...cant really see macroers pirating ) so next time you are missioning or mining, think how somewhere there are macros doing the very same thing you are. and that because of it, you are making a lot less.
Trader20	Posted - 2009.03.29 15:51:00 - [13] Originally by: Ak'athra J'ador Originally by: Trader20 Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails Originally by: Darek Castigatus The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? Discuss. So the end justifies the means? No, you are not right. Have the courage of your convictions. You are passivly condoning what is effectively cheating. Cat you need to relax and just let ppl do what they want. Their is no ethics, morales, ehonor, etc, ITS A FRICKEN GAME!!!! All the macro whiners, stfu, they not hurting u personally and stop trying to be the epolice u enarks. actually you are wrong. they do hurt everyone. because of the massive impact they have on the economy. when you are making isk (whatever it is you do) you make a lot less because of them (unless you are a pirate...cant really see macroers pirating ) so next time you are missioning or mining, think how somewhere there are macros doing the very same thing you are. and that because of it, you are making a lot less. Cool, so I guess ur the epolice and I should listen to u, wait, nope stfu. GTC have more of an impact on the economy so should we ban that? Stop trying to run the game and let CCP deal with the laws.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.03.29 16:01:00 - [14] Originally by: Droog 1 Originally by: Darek Castigatus Consider the following scenario, a character with a 23/7 macro mining alt. Now normally i would consider this a bad thing because of the afore mentioned views on macroing in general. However the character uses the isk his alt generates to help support a corporation which i have been a part of for almost 2 years. He also tirelessly works to ensure that the corp continues to thrive and is an active participant in alliance diplomacy and corp operations. It doesn't matter where the Isk goes. Your friend is a lowlife cheat and you should report him. You know this is against the EULA and havn't done anything to stop him/her. CCP should ask you for details and if you don't give them the details your account should be banned too. THIS
Spurty Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.03.29 16:02:00 - [15] Macro'ing and putting people out of business as they can't compete has been happening since the dawn of the computer. Personally, I think its quite a natural progression as in real life, we no longer have people putting lids on jars in factories nor do we have people repairing VCRs and Record Players. If this is what they want to do with their expertise and others that don't can't compete, I personally find those unable to learn how to do it themselves should perish. Step up and compete with modernization. That all being good and well, it is just a game after all, it should have no boring aspects to it. Entertainment lacking entertainment should also fail. Now, when it comes to games where competition is about human reflexes only, this no longer makes any sense (aimbots for example), but those games don't contain a grind aspect with no entertainment value. My feelings are that in EVE-Online, I'd sooner buy GTCs than waste my few hours play time looking at a big rock as I mined. Originally by: Butter Dog I think you'll find that 10 seconds > 1 month
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Can't Decide Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.03.29 16:02:00 - [16] Originally by: Trader20 Cool, so I guess ur the epolice and I should listen to u, wait, nope stfu. GTC have more of an impact on the economy so should we ban that? Stop trying to run the game and let CCP deal with the laws. its just my opinion macros should be stopped. maybe doing that would ruing the game. the market would go crazy, people would quit and CCP would close doors. i don't know. maybe its not the right thing to do. who am i to decide. so say somebody comes up with a "i win button"? he presses it and it blows your ship up. would you mind that? i would. and as a part of the community, i would try and get CCPs attention and hope they stop the guy. i just happen to be the kind of person who thinks games should be fair, and everyone should have equal chances. you and CCP happen to disagree.
Trader20	Posted - 2009.03.29 16:10:00 - [17] Originally by: rValdez5987 Originally by: Droog 1 Originally by: Darek Castigatus Consider the following scenario, a character with a 23/7 macro mining alt. Now normally i would consider this a bad thing because of the afore mentioned views on macroing in general. However the character uses the isk his alt generates to help support a corporation which i have been a part of for almost 2 years. He also tirelessly works to ensure that the corp continues to thrive and is an active participant in alliance diplomacy and corp operations. It doesn't matter where the Isk goes. Your friend is a lowlife cheat and you should report him. You know this is against the EULA and havn't done anything to stop him/her. CCP should ask you for details and if you don't give them the details your account should be banned too. THIS A snitch is no better then the person committing the crime. Mind ur own business.
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Can't Decide Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.03.29 16:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Trader20 Originally by: rValdez5987 Originally by: Droog 1 Originally by: Darek Castigatus Consider the following scenario, a character with a 23/7 macro mining alt. Now normally i would consider this a bad thing because of the afore mentioned views on macroing in general. However the character uses the isk his alt generates to help support a corporation which i have been a part of for almost 2 years. He also tirelessly works to ensure that the corp continues to thrive and is an active participant in alliance diplomacy and corp operations. It doesn't matter where the Isk goes. Your friend is a lowlife cheat and you should report him. You know this is against the EULA and havn't done anything to stop him/her. CCP should ask you for details and if you don't give them the details your account should be banned too. THIS A snitch is no better then the person committing the crime. Mind ur own business. so somebody murders someone, and somebody gives him away. and he is as bad as the murderer? interesting perspective i must say
Feilamya Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.29 16:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Darek Castigatus Discuss. macros are bad.
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2009.03.29 16:38:00 - [20] Originally by: Trader20 Your not the epolice so stfu. Their is no ethics, morales, ehonor, etc, ITS A FRICKEN GAME!!!! While that may possibly describe you it certainly doesn't describe most people. Ethics and morality deal with the expected conduct of people. Sometimes it's the conduct that the group expects of you and sometimes its the conduct that you expect of yourself. Despite your "it's a game" argument the fact is that games are one of the places where a code of conduct is the most clear and apparent and where "cheating" is the most explicitly defined. Originally by: Trader20 All the macro whiners, stfu, they not hurting u personally and stop trying to be the epolice u enarks. Although you're wrong and they are hurting each of us personally, that's not even the point. Even if the were "only" hurting someone else I would still be reporting them. I guess that's my personal moral code, obviously your mileage may vary. Originally by: Trader20 PPL who tell on on other ppl for cheating are stupid. Interesting. Since cheating hurts us all and since we know that reporting cheaters results (at least some of the time) in their punishment or removal from the game it seems to me that the "stupidity" lies in those who allow others to pollute our game when they could do something to help. (It's a whole new level of "stupid" to ignore the cheaters but attack and insult those who are trying to help.) So I think you've got this issue the wrong way 'round. Unless, of course, you're just a cheater yourself. In that case your whole rant becomes much more understandable.
Cors It's A Trap	Posted - 2009.03.29 16:40:00 - [21] Theres a differance between a macro and a bot. A Macro is a recorded set of keystrokes/mouse movements. You see this very commonly with the Grouping ability, with Logitech G15 keyboards and so on. This is allowed. A BOT on the other hand is NOT allowed. No matter what it's used for. I'd LOVE to have a bot program for my hulk pilots, but the truth is, I'd never risk my accounts that way. So I do my mining the old fashioned way... I run lvl 4 missions and loot them and melt the loot down.
Feilamya Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.29 16:54:00 - [22] Originally by: Cors Theres a differance between a macro and a bot. Most people who say "macros" really mean "bots". If you use these two words "correctly", you are part of a minority. Unless you want to waste time and energy by correcting people over and over again, it's better to just figure out what they mean and pretend they used the right word for it. Don't try to fight ignorance. You can't win!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2009.03.29 16:56:00 - [23] Originally by: Darek Castigatus Consider the following scenario, a character with a 23/7 macro mining alt. Now normally i would consider this a bad thing because of the afore mentioned views on macroing in general. However the character uses the isk his alt generates to help support a corporation which i have been a part of for almost 2 years. He also tirelessly works to ensure that the corp continues to thrive and is an active participant in alliance diplomacy and corp operations. The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? Discuss. This is an issue where your principles come into conflict with practical gain, and your principles get wtfpwned. This simply means that you have no principles, you merely pretend to when you believe the issue doesn't affect you. As for your 'friend', if you don't report him you are almost as bad as him. BTW, I wouldn't be proud to be part of a corp that is (or especially, needs to be) supported by cheating. Just saying. - DesuSigs
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.03.29 18:07:00 - [24] Originally by: Trader20 Edited by: Trader20 on 29/03/2009 15:41:09 Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails Originally by: Darek Castigatus The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? Discuss. So the end justifies the means? No, you are not right. Have the courage of your convictions. You are passivly condoning what is effectively cheating. Cat you need to relax and just let ppl do what they want. Your not the epolice so stfu. Their is no ethics, morales, ehonor, etc, ITS A FRICKEN GAME!!!! All the macro whiners, stfu, they not hurting u personally and stop trying to be the epolice u enarks. PPL who tell on on other ppl for cheating are stupid. Macroer itt!
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.03.29 18:08:00 - [25] Originally by: Trader20 Originally by: rValdez5987 Originally by: Droog 1 Originally by: Darek Castigatus Consider the following scenario, a character with a 23/7 macro mining alt. Now normally i would consider this a bad thing because of the afore mentioned views on macroing in general. However the character uses the isk his alt generates to help support a corporation which i have been a part of for almost 2 years. He also tirelessly works to ensure that the corp continues to thrive and is an active participant in alliance diplomacy and corp operations. It doesn't matter where the Isk goes. Your friend is a lowlife cheat and you should report him. You know this is against the EULA and havn't done anything to stop him/her. CCP should ask you for details and if you don't give them the details your account should be banned too. THIS A snitch is no better then the person committing the crime. Mind ur own business. So if you saw someone you know murder your family you wouldnt report him to the police then?
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Can't Decide Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.03.29 18:49:00 - [26] using bots is not allowed. writing them i guess is? how about if someone would start making and posting bots right here on the eve forums. there is nothing in the forum rules which would prohibit that right? so say somebody starts making them and the number of boters goes up drastically. would then CCP finally do something about it? could CCP be forced this way? or would they just ignore their own rules and ban the people making the bots from the game (even though they would not actually be using bot, just writing them). i guess it would be like using weapons to make piece, which always sounded like a stupid idea to me. but i cant stop thinking of what eve would be like if 90% of boters went dead...
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.29 18:53:00 - [27] Originally by: Darek Castigatus http://www.eve-mag.com/wordpress/archives/the-sky-is-falling reading this article and and its comment got me thinking about my personal views on macro use and its effects. Its slanted somewhat towards macroing in EVE hence why i put it here rather than in out of pod. I come down quite heavily on the anti macro side of the spectrum and agree with most of the anti macro points raised in the articles comments, however i also believe that there is another side to it which im my opinion wasnt really addressed. Consider the following scenario, a character with a 23/7 macro mining alt. Now normally i would consider this a bad thing because of the afore mentioned views on macroing in general. However the character uses the isk his alt generates to help support a corporation which i have been a part of for almost 2 years. He also tirelessly works to ensure that the corp continues to thrive and is an active participant in alliance diplomacy and corp operations. The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? Discuss. No. That's like saying it's OK to sell her0in to orphans because you're using the money to put your kids through college. PS Thanks for narking out your buddy. I'm sure the GMs are checking your corp's financial records as we speak. At least, I hope they are.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.29 18:56:00 - [28] Originally by: Trader20 Edited by: Trader20 on 29/03/2009 15:41:09 Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails Originally by: Darek Castigatus The question i want to pose is simple, Can the use to which the isk gained is put in some way justify the use of macros? Am i right in not turning my ire on this player because he has helped support something which i am proud to be a part of through the use of something i fundamentally disagree with? Discuss. So the end justifies the means? No, you are not right. Have the courage of your convictions. You are passivly condoning what is effectively cheating. Cat you need to relax and just let ppl do what they want. Your not the epolice so stfu. Their is no ethics, morales, ehonor, etc, ITS A FRICKEN GAME!!!! All the macro whiners, stfu, they not hurting u personally and stop trying to be the epolice u enarks. PPL who tell on on other ppl for cheating are stupid. Wrong, wrong, wrong. They do hurt me - and other players - personally.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.29 18:58:00 - [29] Edited by: Malcanis on 29/03/2009 18:58:09 EDIT. wtf?
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Can't Decide Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:11:00 - [30] Originally by: Malcanis PS Thanks for narking out your buddy. I'm sure the GMs are checking your corp's financial records as we speak. At least, I hope they are. why? where did you people get the idea that CCP bans boters?

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