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Stealth Bombers II - A new focused role

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 34 post(s)
DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.04.02 20:38:00 - [1] I believe that I have been over anxious about these changes. I feel CCP has a possible good idea at this point. I retract previous statements and suggestions until the new bomber hits TQ and I can fly it in real combat situations. Then I will make my decision. (Sisi doesn't count :P) Anyway, on the whole, I'm just glad CCP is messing with the thing. I love the ship, treat her well. Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.
DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.04.06 12:40:00 - [2] I've read this thread through. I can't get my Sisi to work still... So haven't tried the new boat yet. However I'm seeing trends in these posts. Trends. Pilots are NOT happy with the new SB. Pilots do not like the lack of speed as it currently sits. Pilots are not happy about the change from Cruise to Torps for Several reasons. A: Speed, of said missles (They can't catch fast moving vessels) B: Range, Max range of 60km with T2 Ammo = much lower survivability C: Damage, can't kill anything worth killing without support (Hell we can solo in BC/BS/HAC/Cruisers?Intys/Af) It isn't like we are trying to tackle in a bomber... Speed, changing over to the Covops Cloak = Good idea, making the ship Crawl at 70ms = Bad idea. Time, The majority of current SB pilots who have invested the month or more of training time for cruise missiles 5 + other skills Fun. plain and simple. The current bomber is fun to fly. According to several posters who have tested the new bomber... It isn't. FUN factor is the biggest key to replay value of games. Please consider the fun factor. I'd rather have half the damage with cruise missiles we currently have. While giving the bombers the covops cloak and keeping the speed as is, than Torps and no speed bonus... I am still optimistic about these changes. I just can't fault the logic of other pilots. If they say it isn't fun. Then it bloody well isn't fun. I love to fly the current bomber, don't make it less enjoyable or it will sit in many hangars and rot and I'll have to go back to flying gank omens. Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.
DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.04.14 13:42:00 - [3] Thanks Chronotis. I will get right on testing the Manti as soon as I'm home from work. The current build was... Lacking. I find the new possibility promising. Or at least more promising. Even if it stays with torps. (Which I'm thinking it's going to at this point :( ) The main thing to keep in mind is fun factor, if we can't have fun flying it. We won't fly it. Yours, Deadly. Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.
DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.04.15 02:02:00 - [4] The poster above me and several others seem to have never flown bombers before. You cannot cloak if you are being targeted. Not you cannot cloak if you are locked, simply in process of being locked. Meaning you cannot cloak if you attack from inside someone's target range and cannot blink. Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.
DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.04.16 13:32:00 - [5] I've been playing since 04 as a pvp pilot... and just now do I get this information? Sigh... my bad. Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.
DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.04.18 04:23:00 - [6] They're not dead. They're alive and kicking - as long as they're in a blob of bombers. What's dead is the fun of actually flying one. (edit for clarity: one as in 1) ^ This I dropped my crusade for my 4 cruise missile launcher bomber. Why? Because I could tell it wouldn't happen. An alpha of 4000 against nearly every target in the game that isn't speed tanking, for shame. So I dropped it. I supported CHANGE. I supported Hope. The one thing I asked to be considered. The only thing required to make the player base happy. The first thing victim to these changes. Fun Factor. Has been thoroughly ignored. I see a frig, I uncloak and fire, the frig takes 78 damage and kills me by the time my second volley hits. I see a cruiser, I do ~300 damage, the cruiser kills me in two volleys. I see a battle cruiser, I do ~900 damage, it smiles takes a few seconds, and rips my bomber in half. I see a battleship, it's drones start attacking me as I hit it for 1500 damage a volley, by the time I've inflicted ~5000 damage I'm dead, or it speed tanks. Or it just warps away. The bomber is not made to tackle. The bomber cannot effectively engage any target now. Even Industrials don't pop every time to a single volley and that's all you get with the bomber. It cannot tank the sentry guns so it cannot camp noobs in low sec. It cannot kill any ship class solo. by flying one you stamp a very big sticker on your forehead saying (Primary) Oh and they cost three times as much as they did two weeks ago. I used to sit 75km off stations in 0.0 harassing enemies as they undocked with impunity. I don't even want to consider it now. Consider for a moment that that buzzard undocks that you've been waiting on for... thirty minutes and unleash a volley from 60km, say it actually hits the buzzard. For what? Just to watch it dock back up? I used to fly it in gangs on roams. Now it sits in my hangar collecting dust. There are glaring problems with this concept. The biggest is simple. The ship is no longer fun to fly. Hell I would have settled for a trade in of the cloaked velocity for the covops cloak and not changing a thing with the rest of the ship. CCP yet again, I thank you for taking the time to look at the Bomber, it was my favorite ship. I did rig mine. Now I think I'll use them for target practice for my geddon since it has such an easy time killing them. Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.
DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.04.22 13:40:00 - [7] Originally by: 666Devious CCP you gave us something, took it back, and gave us something new. That's fine, the old stealth bomber was my favorite ship. All I ask is this, we gave our training time and I would like my skill points back and to give them to you in something else. I feel that's fair. Unfortunately CCP has already stated that it does not care that we are unhappy about the length of time we spent training skills for the SB. Additionally it also appears that they are so worked up about torpedoes that they will never give us back the cruise launchers. My advice is this. Sell your bombers while the price is high and people still think they are worth it. Save your cash and train your skills up for the Widow. It packs five cruise missile launchers with a 25% rof bonus at max skills and retains the bonus to speed while cloaked. So basically the widow is a much more survivable version of the old stealth bomber. With better dps. Only problem is its cost is much higher. Frankly. I'm not happy.
DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.04.27 23:50:00 - [8] Stealth Bomber Fix: Cruise missile launchers X4 remove option to fit bomb launcher in addition to missile launchers 5% bonus per level of Covert Ops to missile Velocity per level 5% bonus to Racial Damage per level based on racial frigate skill 25% increase to ROF (negative bonus to offset the additional launcher) Ability to use Covops/covops jump bridge. no targeting delay after uncloak. 8 second recloaking delay. Result. Bomber maintains its range advantage. Bomber gains cloak/warp ability. Bomber retains its versatility. Bomber does a great alpha and relatively good dps. Still can't tank, still can't tackle, still is vulnerable to practically everything. Let's do some basic math let's say the cruise missiles do 1000 damage base after your skills. You also have a launcher refiring every 15 seconds. so that's 3000 damage every 15 seconds with the old bomber. that makes roughly 200 dps before tank. (I know with skills this can be better. it's just for the math trust me.) New bomber with its bonuses. 4000ish damage, 18.75 seconds. 213.333 dps Now consider that the majority of targets have at least 50% tank across the board. 2000 alpha, 106.666 dps. This isn't a solo pwnmobile. It fulfills its role. It is survivable. It maintains the initial weapons platform which means it doesn't waste invested skills. Most important however. It would be fun to fly. I've flown with Black while we tested the new bombers on Sisi, I've flown with my corp while we used the old bombers successfully on TQ. I've got three manticores rotting in my hanger. I haven't been on the live server for anything aside from skill training since the patch. It was rushed, and simply... lacking. I know that this post will not change anything. It has logic in it. It has experience in it. It's the ship I've wanted for nearly a year. Players simply need to ask themselves why they fly ships. I fly a vagabond or a zealot because they are useful and fun to fly. I fly a blackbird, or a scorpion because they are useful and fun to fly. I fly a Geddon, or a Hyperion because they are useful and fun to fly. Please CCP, make my bomber fun again so I can dust them off and kill things? Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.
DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.04.28 12:46:00 - [9] Calculations were aimed at the Old Bomber when it still had Cruise missiles. Sorry for the confusion. Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.
DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.05.03 01:47:00 - [10] Edit It is posible with max skills to fit a Purifier for range using T1 Torps of 69KM with a volley damage of 4105 at 0% resistance, Cal Navy Torps a volley of 4717 damage. T2 rage can get a range of 62KM with a volley of 5255 all at 0% resistance. Very high damage output for a Frig. This ship is far from useless. Did you actually kill anything with it? And did you survive the engagement? I've flown both, the new one has lost that loving feelin. Bring back, that loving feelin, cause it's gone gone gone, and I can't go on. whaoaho CCP I get down on my knees for you. If you would only love me, like you used to dooo yeah. we had a ship a ship, you didn't find every day. ... I'll stop now. Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.

DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.05.07 15:04:00 - [11] that is 500 dps, before resistances, speed, and signature radius. which when factored in reduce your damage to what? around 100 dps? However 100 dps out of a frigate isn't too bad, the problem is that particular damage is only vs 1 target type, and all other ship types below battle ships take increasingly less damage to the point where you're hitting a frigate for 60-90 damage a volley, if your missiles can even catch it. Yes you can kill things... if they are sitting still, not firing, you have five friends who are also shooting and are in useful ships, and they do not have drones. Ever try killing an Armageddon from 50km off with your hound? Even if I do not fit my standard gank fit. My falloff is still long enough to reach out and swat you with Amarr Navy Radio. At that range the tracking is good enough to hit you even if you're doing 1200m/s and orbiting. Now sensor dampeners are a good friend of mine, and I realize you will be packing them, but if I can't kill you, I just warp away. Oh you've got a few interceptors? Well my nos/neut and drones will take care of them and I'll still have time to leave. OH you brought a battleship? or a fleet of battleships? Well then why did you bother bringing those bombers again? The new bomber can do one thing. It is support dps for Black Ops in a cheaper platform than the BO BS. The problem is it is pigeon holed into this. It has no versatility. It is no longer effective at harassment because the targets you would attack are no longer threatened with summary death if they stick around. The bomber was great for camping hostile 0.0 stations at 80+ km and shooting at people when they undock. It can still do that with the right fit. However it is much more expensive to risk it now, and the chances of actually scoring that Oh so satisfying instant kill vs low hp ships is now null. In roaming gangs you get the same utility and a more survivable platform out of an AF or a taranis. In black ops gangs you can't bring those ships, so you're stuck with the bomber, which then comes into it's own for all of five seconds until it is locked by support ships and killed. You don't generally land 50+ km off when you do a black ops drop unless you are sniper fit and it's been pre arranged to do just that. Damps are great, vs 1 target at a time. You cannot damp an entire 10man gang with 1 bomber, someone out there is in a munin with sensor boosters just hoping you show up in a bomber and he can fluff his KB. Their damage is mediocre against their intended target, not because 100 dps is terrible, but because 100 dps is bad vs a ship with around 70k ehp. They're too easy to lock, too easy to track, too easy to kill with one volley. The only feasible way to increase the survivability currently is to wait until the rest of your attack group has already engaged the target and then uncloak and engage yourself. Which is rather like saying "You guys go forth, I'll camp here." Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.
DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.05.08 02:05:00 - [12] Edited by: DeadlyBob on 08/05/2009 02:07:35 Originally by: Charlie chop God where do I start? O yes!!.... Have you ever used one? If yes then WTF is wrong with you? Yes I've flown them, read my posts. I've been posting about bomber changes for months. WTF is wrong with me is very simple. I am not pleased by the current incarnation of this ship as it is no longer fun to fly. I realize you are quoting raw damage. DPS however requires that you are there/alive to deliver it. One can not do 500 raw dps if they have had to warp off. And comparing the 1000 dps raven that you quoted to a bomber is ludicrous on some levels however since you mentioned it, the raven does not do full raw damage yes, however it does on the other hand survive a good deal longer in a straight up fight vs any other ship. Frigs were always the bane of the SB, even with cruise missiles you were hard pressed to kill an AF and an interceptor pilot who knew his work could kite your missiles long enough to kill you. "A good sb pilot does not allow his enemy to lock on." True, which nullifies his dps by removing him from the engagement, or putting himself at long range. So you sit in sniper land, or you fire/ blink/ warp away. good enough. Yet the new bomber cannot blink, is even more vulnerable to light support ships with high speeds/long ranges, and warping off kinda defeats the purpose of packing one in your fleet for its dps potential. I said Armageddon, not Abbadon, and I never claimed it was a well divided wolf pack, simply a few interceptors with bomber support. And if it were a good wolf pack they would have brought Hacs instead of the bombers to spread out the enemy dps and bring the target down faster. Since they are at this point only slightly more expensive than a rigged bomber and tank like... twenty times better. It is the highest dps on a frig yes, however it is only the highest dps vs battleships and up. If you read my posts those are actual volley damages vs moving targets who were engaged, do you know how many times my bomber got out alive in those engagements? I should note that my bringing up my Armageddon was a very stupid idea, because the only time I will fly a battleship is in a sizable fleet op anyway. Which kind of nullifies your point because my fleet's snipers would pick you off before we even had to worry about the damage. However as the other poster mentioned. If I were caught alone in my battleship by a gang, and I mean like 4+ ships, I should expect to die anyway. There are few ships out there that can tank 1000+ raw dps. Which oddly enough you could get out of a few interceptors, a few cruisers, a few anything for that matter. DPS is simply not a role. Every combat ship that isn't specifically Ewar does DPS and most of them survive longer vs the Bomber's new niche target. Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.
DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.05.08 02:11:00 - [13] Quote: We must conclude that bombers do less damage than your precious Taranis in the average (or most?) cases. Thank you for putting numbers to this. My math is not so powerful as I would like. Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.
DeadlyBob Minmatar Woopatang Primary.	Posted - 2009.05.12 00:46:00 - [14] Edited by: DeadlyBob on 12/05/2009 00:47:49 No offense taken Ranger, having a disagreement of principals is one thing, calling someone out and insulting them is another. I'm busy looking over your KB as we speak stealing all your fits ;) It's simple to me at this point. Chronotis and the other devs have come to a conclusion, my not being satisfied with that conclusion is moot as others obviously are making it work. I may not be happy about it, but I will adapt. Edit: Nm you haven't any losses with the new bomber as of yet. Looks like someone has found survivability. Kudos. Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless.

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