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Make 0.5 and 0.6 high-sec more interesting to lazy Hulks!

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Cadde Gallente Gene Works Initiative Associates	Posted - 2009.04.02 02:37:00 - [31] As much as i want to support the little guy i find it unlikely that an iteron miner is going to get any respect from hulk pilots. It is a first come, first serve system. The options you have are: Find a hulkless system. Train for a proper mining ship. Join an industrial/mining corporation, use your industrial for what it's built for. Give up mining The list may sound harsh, but that is going to be your reality for at least a year to come. (Changes to the game takes at least that long from acceptance to implementation) Now for your actual idea, CCP already have changes in the planning/refining stage for removing stationary belts from all systems. That means you will have to use the exploration system to find ANYTHING to mine. With that knowledge you may rather want a "scan blocker" feature that makes it near impossible for others to find the signature you are in. Because as i said, it takes a LONG time for feature requests to actually enter the game and most of those that do make it into the game are things that are needed/required by the masses. That means, if it benefits more than 10% of the eve playerbase it is likely that the feature makes it into the pipeline. Iteron miners are a minority for obvious reasons, to name one, EFFICIENCY. In my hulk, i can mine more ore in 2 to 3 cycles than you can in a day in your iteron and it only takes me 6 minutes to do so. That raises another flaw with your proposal, why should people who spent 3 months training mining be left out of a large portion of systems just because they mine a few hundred times faster than the new guy? Why should they have to spend time avoiding a single rock just because someone laid "claim" to it? In my opinion the balance is already highly askew with high sec security (for starters... noob corps) which turns eve more and more into a single player game rather than a multiplayer game. I pay my monthly fee to play eve... I do it because of the MMO part, not the "I munch rocks 24/7" part. Finally, let me just prepare you. This will not be the first "injustice" that you will face. The sooner you realize the truth, the faster you will learn to stay competitive or go play something else. So here it is for you... EVE ISN'T FAIR //Cadde My opinions belong to me, you can't have them! Please resize sig to a maximum file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.02 06:07:00 - [32] Originally by: Cadde As much as i want to support the little guy ... ... do you continue to fail at it. - CONCORD is going after all who start a fight in high sec. - Titans got banned from high sec. - Anchoring of a POS depends on the security level and gets harder the higher the level gets. - Anchoring is forbidden above 0.7. The more mining barges exist the sooner they will get banned from these systems, too. Become part of the solution or be the problem. This is not the first thread about the lack of fun in mining. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.02 06:27:00 - [33] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Cadde As much as i want to support the little guy ... ... do you continue to fail at it. - CONCORD is going after all who start a fight in high sec. - Titans got banned from high sec. - Anchoring of a POS depends on the security level and gets harder the higher the level gets. - Anchoring is forbidden above 0.7. The more mining barges exist the sooner they will get banned from these systems, too. Become part of the solution or be the problem. This is not the first thread about the lack of fun in mining. Ok, let's look this hypothetic scenario where CCP has banned hulks (and all barges/exumers) from 0.9/1.0 systems. You know what will happen? You will see rokh with 8 mining lasers mining the belts all day long. They are slightly better than a retiever (depend on skills, but you can stash a lot of upgrades in those low slots), almost invulnerable to ganking attempts and with a friend hauling they will not suffer much for the low cargo hold. So your iteron will be again outmined by other ships.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.02 06:43:00 - [34] Then there is the other big question: How will this ban will be enforced? Banning capitals was easy. The jumpgates will not accept them. But the exumers/barges don't have cyno capability so they need to be able to use the gates. Locking only the gates to 0.9/1.0? Exumers/barges can easily be moved in the cargo of industrials. Making them contraband too in 0.9/1.0 systems? It will have a big impact on the markets and it will make moving them a nightmare. So, making this kind of changes because you want to mine in 0.9/1.0 system without bigger competition is beyond the realm of reason.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.02 10:28:00 - [35] I believe CCP will find ways to make mining more interesting and only if it is by nerfing ships or enforcing ship size limits for asteroid belts. I am certain that there a many displeasing possibilities to do this, and why would I want to discuss them? -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Metalcali Amarr	Posted - 2009.04.02 11:57:00 - [36] Originally by: Whitehound I believe CCP will find ways to make mining more interesting and only if it is by nerfing ships or enforcing ship size limits for asteroid belts. I am certain that there a many displeasing possibilities to do this, and why would I want to discuss them? To simply find problems that might occur with your own request and make it more solid, instead of where it's at now which is you are upset someone spent time to learn to use something that you don't want too. A simple solution for you would be to train up at least some mining barge levels, but that won't happen it seems. Right now, mining is semi interesting, if you find ways to make it so. Try and find an alternative to banning something you don't like because they worked harder than you. What is the point of having asteroids, aside from RP and feel, in a system if only little ships are allowed to mine them? What reasoning would the game empires have to out right ban even their own ships from working in their systems?
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.02 12:22:00 - [37] Originally by: Metalcali To simply find problems that might occur with your own request and make it more solid, No. You don't get it. Why would I want to discuss them? I don't. It is a rhetorical question. Quote: A simple solution for you would be to train up at least some mining barge levels No. It is not simple. It takes time. Neither would it solve the problem for everyone but only for me. That is called selfish. For the rest of your comment, I suggest you read the entire idea again and see if there is not something in there for you to love. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Areon Shadaar Gallente Onyx Commando	Posted - 2009.04.02 13:44:00 - [38] There is another possibility for you: You could learn to scan (Astrometrics I for 400k ISK would do, but its rather a pain) find you own private belts (those are gravimetric sites) and mine your heart out of them. As far as I have experienced, you will be quite alone there. Regards, Areon
Marcus Gideon Gallente Limited Liability Corp	Posted - 2009.04.02 14:08:00 - [39] The point is... the whole game is full of processes. You start with a limited amount of combat skills, and the ability to climb into a teeny frigate. Then you train for more, for larger, for stronger... and move on. Not to say that you head out for 0.0 because there are plently of L3-L4 agents in High Sec systems. There is nothing encouraging/forcing mission runners to get out of the way of other runners... in fact, that's why there are "mission hubs". You start with a limited amount of mining skills, and the ability to climb into a teeny mining ship. Then you train for more, for larger, for better... and move on. The asteroids are still there, but now you can mine more of them in less time. While there are -other- asteroids in Low/Null... there is nothing encouraging/forcing miners to head there except for the supply and demand of the market. You... have chosen to focus more on flying an Industrial ship (Iteron) rather than focus on a proper mining ship (Barge/Exhumer). This is entirely your fault, and does not at all require CCP to intercede on your behalf. You are asking to encourage/force properly trained miners to move on to greener pastures, and to leave you alone so you can continue to mine poorly. It's quite evident, that CCP has chosen to encourage/force YOU to learn to mine properly, rather than rely on a single Miner I to get the job done. If you want to be a Miner, then learn to do it right. Get the right gear (ship, modules, skills) for the right job. But don't come on here and complain when you are being outdone by other players who have spent the time and effort to get what you refuse to. --- *Players aren't interested in Variety, they only want THE BEST.*
Thorson Wiles Minmatar M3 Co-Op	Posted - 2009.04.02 14:56:00 - [40] I can honestly say that I have, a few different times, pointed an industrial at a rock, then did some RL things. If your complaint is that people are mining the rocks out from under you in .9+ ... move. My instances of this activity was in .7, .8, and once in .6 in a Mammoth that was designed to ignore regional HS rats. Nobody undercut my rocks. (Some laughed and jibed in local though.) I trained up to my Hulk because I wanted to be efficient in mining, just like I trained for the Mammoth to be efficient in hauling. (And my alt with the Inty 5. Now both can fly the Orca.) Also trained for a Fleet tempest to be efficient in missioning. Don't suggest CCP makes a change because you want simple. Easy is one thing, and mining in .9+ is the easiest thing around, but simple? tl;dr: Nothing's broke, so nothing to fix.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.02 15:03:00 - [41] Originally by: Areon Shadaar There is another possibility for you: You could learn to scan ... Sorry, I have already chosen. I choose the possibility to make a suggestion. Please stay on topic. If I wanted help I would have posted it into Science and Industry. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.02 15:05:00 - [42] Originally by: Marcus Gideon The point is... the whole game is full of processes. I do not want your interpretation of the game. Please stay on topic. If you have a question about my suggestion then, please, ask. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Lifelongnoob Caldari Final Conflict UK Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.04.02 15:09:00 - [43] Originally by: Venkul Mul Then there is the other big question: How will this ban will be enforced? Banning capitals was easy. The jumpgates will not accept them. But the exumers/barges don't have cyno capability so they need to be able to use the gates. Locking only the gates to 0.9/1.0? Exumers/barges can easily be moved in the cargo of industrials. Making them contraband too in 0.9/1.0 systems? It will have a big impact on the markets and it will make moving them a nightmare. So, making this kind of changes because you want to mine in 0.9/1.0 system without bigger competition is beyond the realm of reason. to enforce a mining barge ban in 1.0 /0.9 u ban the activation of a strip miner -- much like the way smart bombs are banned in all high sec except in mission dungeons
Rheed We The People	Posted - 2009.04.02 16:14:00 - [44] I think a better solution would be to remove npc rats from high sec. Then your afk mining hauler won't be bothered. :rolleyes: You can give a carebear a fish and he will eat for a day or you can teach a carebear how to fish and he will sit on his boat and whine that you didn't give him another fish. ----------------------------------- Look at me! I'm on the INTERNET!!!
Marcus Gideon Gallente Limited Liability Corp	Posted - 2009.04.02 16:22:00 - [45] Give him a fish, and he'll complain about having to cook it. Teach him to fish, and he'll complain about having to go out and catch them first. This whole thread is/has become a joke. You have taken it upon yourself to attempt to call yourself a "Miner", because you have put a Miner I onto your Iteron. If you are in an Iteron, you are a "Hauler". You should be working alongside the Hulks, carrying their ore back to station for a modest cut. But instead... you feel that the actual "Miners" are doing their jobs too well, and that's cutting into you meager profits. You're little more than a street beggar, asking for spare change from the actual working folks. If you want to succeed at mining, then do it properly. (HINT: Industrial Mining isn't proper) And ignoring everyone who is telling you flat out that you're in the wrong, and there is nothing at all wrong with the game mechanics themselves... is asinine. Just because you aren't hearing "Gee Whitehound, that's a genius idea. I'm glad you thought of it. Of course the game should be made totally open to AFK Miners" Your only reply is "Stay on topic" The topic is... how much do you suck at mining? And how long are you willing to advertise that fact? How much of an a$$ are you going to make of yourself, before you suck it up and get the right ship for the job?
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.02 16:37:00 - [46] Originally by: Marcus Gideon This whole thread is/has become a joke. Stop now. It's been said more than enough not to get off the topic. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Marcus Gideon Gallente Limited Liability Corp	Posted - 2009.04.02 16:55:00 - [47] I invite Mitnal to come back again, and delete anything he sees is off topic. But until he does... or when you realize that the topic is HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME... then try replying to the rest of our posts. You have chosen to fly the wrong ship for mining. You are not properly equipped. And you have said that you don't intend on getting properly trained and equipped. Rather, you would like CCP to change the mechanics of their entire game, to suit your particular play style. Do you want to solo L4s in your Rookie frig? Or would you like to establish gate bubbles in your Interceptor? How about fleet tackler in your Freighter? You suggest bigger and more dense rocks in lower High Sec. Why? Because there aren't enough minerals in the entirety of EVE already? There is no reason to make more rocks, where there are about 7800 systems out there (counting w-spaces as well). You also suggest limiting where a Barge/Exhumer is allowed to operate. Why? Because it's a ship that's designed for sole purpose of MINING ROCKS? In fact, they've gone so far as to make Tech II ships, which are even better at mining rocks that the Tech I ships. That should say, that they are working exactly as they are intended. What you want, is for the sole providers of Tritanium (being the single most common mineral necessary to any construction) to be provided by the least capable players in the game. You want the entire industrial market to depend on total rookies and noobs. Brand new characters who are not going to be the least bit interested in wasting their inital months trying to gather enough minerals to sustain the rest of the player base. So... if you'd like to stop being a jacka$$, and actually reply to some of the retorts you've received thus far... then by all means. But if you're only going to reply to any negative criticism by assuming that it isn't "on topic", then you're going to be waiting for a long while before you see much support.
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:05:00 - [48] Originally by: Marcus Gideon the least capable players in the game At least for what comes to mental capabilities apparently
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:20:00 - [49] Originally by: Hariya At least for what comes to mental capabilities apparently You are the expert ... Tell me, why would I want to answer to a cry baby? There are questions in there but Marcus Gideon has demonstrated his inability to understand the topic more than once. To answer his questions, which he already answered for himself, would only be foolish. He has its own interpretation of the game and to given him an understanding of what the suggestion is about would he first need to listen. Now, read his last comment and tell me if he is capable of listening. Don't guess. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Metalcali Amarr	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:47:00 - [50] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Hariya At least for what comes to mental capabilities apparently You are the expert ... Tell me, why would I want to answer to a cry baby? There are questions in there but Marcus Gideon has demonstrated his inability to understand the topic more than once. To answer his questions, which he already answered for himself, would only be foolish. He has its own interpretation of the game and to given him an understanding of what the suggestion is about would he first need to listen. Now, read his last comment and tell me if he is capable of listening. Don't guess. You also show that you don't have the ability to listen as well, otherwise you would have seen that you want things your way, not something that is beneficial to the majority of eve players. Until you come to that realization, you will keep getting posts similar to mine and Marcus. But than again, you probably made this thread to do just that, troll for attention, and not about your "serious topic"
Zedrik Cayne Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.04.02 18:03:00 - [51] Edited by: Zedrik Cayne on 02/04/2009 18:05:18 Edited by: Zedrik Cayne on 02/04/2009 18:03:36 Easiest thing to do, from a game point of view, is to start a 'save the belts' environmental campaign. We saw what happened to the highest of high sec ice belts. Depleted due to over mining. Lets save the asteroid belts and outlaw strip mining in 0.8 and higher. I beleive that the mechanics already exist in game to not allow module activation in space where the security is above a certain level. So 'game code wise' its probably relatively easy to enforce this. This also manages to alleviate the problems of moving exhumers and barges through high sec space that outlawing them altogether would cause. The only issue would be the folks mining in battlecruisers or battleships. ha ha But, since its 0.8 and above, they can't use secure cans, and unless they want to deal with having an orca babysit... Sounds like a decent compromise? Oh, and for the nay-sayers about mining industrials: Iteron Mark V...mining fit Mining Lazor II Invulnerability Field I 4x Medium Shield Extender I 5x Mining Lazor Upgrades II You get about 1/2 the yield of a navitas. (about 90m3 a minute) If you have decent skills. And, in an iteron mark 5, that's about an hour and a half to fill your hold. Will tank the rats in a 0.5 system at about 80% shield. Is cap stable, and really the way to fly when you want to afk mine something. So doing quick math...(using battleclinic's numbers) Veldspar at 50 isk per m3 4500 isk/minute 270000 isk/hour Plagioclase at 60 isk per m3 5400 isk/minute 324000 isk/hour Scordite at 70 isk per m3 6300 isk/minute 378000 isk/hour For 0 risk (except for suicide ganks) and almost completely afk. (Yes, I know that for anyone mining for real, those isk/hour numbers suck. But hey, what do you expect from an afk solution)? -- Remember: Carebears aren't people. They are giant flying pi±atas.
Thistle Hurte	Posted - 2009.04.02 18:08:00 - [52] Originally by: Whitehound 1) I park in front of an asteroid, in high-sec 0.9-1.0 and where it is safe for me, and then the first Hulk shows up and starts the race. 2) Make the belts of these system 2-3 times larger and reduce the size of asteroids in the belts of 0.9-1.0 systems. 3) In addition, make the first belt within a system the smallest and the last belt the largest. 4) And cripple the align time of Hulks so that it becomes a pain for them to change belts. 5) Have one or two extra large asteroids in 0.0-0.8 systems. So large that it will take two or three Hulks about an hour to mine only one of them. 6) Let these have a bounty on them, because their size is a threat to every civilised world. 7) If not, then Hulks should be banned completely from 0.9-1.0 similar to anchoring cans. 1) Parking in front of a single rock is what makes you lazy to every other miner. Especially when you say you fly a Iteron, and ***** about Hulks stealing all your phat rox. 2) Keeping the same amount of minerals, but making the lower belts worth more... that might just entice people to branch out. But there's also the matter of Concord taking a while to arrive should an 0.5 Hulk get ganked. That might be keeping some from exploring further out. 3) Varying belt sizes is just silly. If the first were smallest, and the last were largest, then I'd just work from the bottom up. Same effect, only a different order. 4) Crippling align time would only further provide ganks with killmails. And it wouldn't benefit your mining efforts in the slightest. 5) King sized rox would only allow for Hulk pilots to AFK mine more often. Better just to stick with more smaller rox. At least that way mining is somewhat engaging when you have to switch rox. 6) Bounties on rox? I don't think so. The only guy who'd claim it would be the last dude to cycle his laser. Plus the minerals are where you profit anyhow. 7) This is where you're losing all the love. High Sec is the same as NPC Corps. They don't want to "force" anyone out of Care Bear Land. Pretty sure the anchoring thing was just to prevent lots of "Gangsta69 Wuz Heer" from clogging the skies. And Titans and bombs and all that were to prevent collateral and extreme damage.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.02 20:14:00 - [53] Originally by: Thistle Hurte 1) Parking in front of a single rock ... Ok. Next time I will orbit the asteroid. No more parking. And I will turn my laser on and off. No more auto-repeat. I will also empty my cargo space when it reaches 5% and pretend to be busy. That is going to be fun, right? Please say yes. Quote: 2) Keeping the same amount of minerals, but making the lower belts worth more... that might just entice people to branch out. But there's also the matter of Concord taking a while to arrive should an 0.5 Hulk get ganked. ... I don't want to care about mining barges getting ganked. This has nothing to do with the topic. It is a problem of the Hulk pilots. Sort it out in another thread, but not in here, please. Quote: 3) Varying belt sizes is just silly. If the first were smallest, and the last were largest, then I'd just work from the bottom up. ... No, you would not. Not if the inner- and outer-most belts will hold asteroids of a size of only up to 50m3 and force you to lock on to hundreds of them and only to get your cargo bay filled. You will try this once, you will try this twice and then move into the belts with the bigger asteroids. Why? Because these belts are no fun for you. Quote: 4) Crippling align time would only further provide ganks with killmails. And it wouldn't benefit your mining efforts in the slightest. You are not supposed to benefit from a longer align time. But hey, if the trick with the smaller and bigger asteroids is working then why cripple the align time? Only if some of the Hulks are still trying to mine all belts will it help to get them where it is more fun for them to mine. It is better than solving the problem by banning mining barges and EVE has already several bans. Quote: 5) King sized rox would only allow for Hulk pilots to AFK mine more often. Better just to stick with more smaller rox. At least that way mining is somewhat engaging when you have to switch rox. Nothing wrong with afk mining. At least I do not see it as a problem. Sometimes it is useful for making coffee and a sandwich, and have something to eat. If afk miners however are a problem then, please, add suggestions on how to avoid afk mining. Quote: 6) Bounties on rox? I don't think so. The only guy who'd claim it would be the last dude to cycle his laser. Plus the minerals are where you profit anyhow. It is a bonus. You don't want it? Then don't be the last one to mine the asteroid. Or do you feel forced to mine it? I think the huge asteroid is going to be fun for Hulks - when they can gather around it and the last one wins the bounty. Quote: 7) This is where you're losing all the love. High Sec is the same as NPC Corps. They don't want to "force" anyone out of Care Bear Land. Pretty sure the anchoring thing was just to prevent lots of "Gangsta69 Wuz Heer" from clogging the skies. And Titans and bombs and all that were to prevent collateral and extreme damage. The mining barges are not getting less. You could just increase the amount of available ore but it will not make the mining barges move out of 0.9-1.0 before they have cleared these systems. The current belts are like a motorway for them and they do not just mine veldspar, they mine completely everything. Changing the size and amount to make some belts more fun than other belts will make the miners spread. I do not expect them to spread perfectly, but the mining barges will tend to give up on some of the belts and rather choose belts in another systems where they can find more of the bigger asteroids. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.02 20:39:00 - [54] Edited by: Whitehound on 02/04/2009 20:40:07 Originally by: Metalcali You also show that you don't have the ability to listen as well, otherwise you would have seen that you want things your way, not something that is beneficial to the majority of eve players. Until you come to that realization, you will keep getting posts similar to mine and Marcus. But than again, you probably made this thread to do just that, troll for attention, and not about your "serious topic" Uhm, what? Give me your address and I will send you some chocolate. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Chomin H'ak Integrated Takeovers	Posted - 2009.04.02 21:00:00 - [55] Successful troll is successful. Originally by: Frenden Dax My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise. My Blog - Fighting for Eden
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.02 21:07:00 - [56] Originally by: Chomin H'ak Successful troll is successful. What about you? -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Pvt Public7 Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.04.02 22:52:00 - [57] this entire thread --- SWA was here IAC is a loser
Scattershot Lucas	Posted - 2009.04.03 15:03:00 - [58] This is without question the stupidest post I've ever seen.
Thorson Wiles Minmatar M3 Co-Op	Posted - 2009.04.03 16:17:00 - [59] Originally by: Pvt Public7 this entire thread That doesn't do this thread (specifically, the OP) justice. This might
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.03 17:51:00 - [60] No more justice posts, please. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.

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