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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.04 01:54:00 -
[1]
Give Black Ops 1. Covert ops cloak, 2. +2 warp strength 3. Sizable fuel bay.
That will make it somewhat useful. Otherwise simple t2 recon cruiser is better. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.04 15:38:00 -
[2]
Edited by: rgreat on 04/04/2009 15:42:53 Edited by: rgreat on 04/04/2009 15:39:23
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Yes, please make the Black Ops into a better covert hauler. I've always wanted a Battleship sized crane...
Has anyone noticed that those who want cov ops cloaking are generally people who don't plan on using the Black Ops for it's primary role, bridging forces behind enemy lines? I already have a recon ship, if the Black Ops becomes that I'll sell mine and fly my pilgrim instead. I mean honest to god, the Redeemer and a well fit Pilgrim have about the same effective hp anyway.
Huh, blocade runner is still MUCH better covert hauler. Weird that you, carebears of eve do not know about it.
Cov ops cloak give BO initiative advantage in combat. +2 Warp strength add better survivability in solo and small gangs figths. And hope to actually make a run for it if something goes wrong. Its a much needed feature as battleships does not have the mobility of it cruieser covert counterparts. With black ops huge cost its a must have feature. It is not nearly an immunity, but a chance to survive. interdictors still get you, more then 1 tackler will get you again. And you will still be a primary targed for all hostiles around.
Finally fuel bay adds mobility to it. As most of typical black ops cargo bay is filled with cap batteries it definitely need fuel bay.
If you plan to use BO as transport - it is a waste. Use carriers or blocade runners. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.05 14:45:00 -
[3]
Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 14:47:37 Please change 5% hybrid damage of a Sin (and Dominix) to something actually usefull. These ships are rarely fit with these anyway.
Thanks. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.05 20:40:00 -
[4]
Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 20:41:02
Originally by: Takashi Setsu
Originally by: Cailais Where are all these 'farmers' flying Black Ops BS???
Trying to imply cov ops cloak = farmers is rubbish: trying to drum up support against cover ops cloaks being an option by appealing to the anti-farmer lobby.
C.
They are waiting for CCP to give them covert ops cloaks...
Black Ops are too weak to farm with them. Wake up. T1 are better, not to count marauders. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.05 20:55:00 -
[5]
Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 20:59:16
Originally by: Mors Magne Edited by: Mors Magne on 05/04/2009 16:35:16
Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 14:47:37 Please change 5% hybrid damage of a Sin (and Dominix) to something actually usefull. These ships are rarely fit with these anyway.
Thanks.
If BOs are to distroy cyno jammers, fitting blasters would be a good idea.
However, if the role of BOs is versus ships, I agree - a nos/neut bonus would be best.
Do you know how many HP cynojammers have? More then 16 Millions.
I severely doubt you can gather so many black ops so you can effectively siege a pos for so long.
You'll need to kill cynojammer fast... very fast. Or youll be wiped out with conventional fleet ;) And i still do not understand HOW black ops can attack a fully armed pos. Kamikaze style? ;)
No point to fit these blasters. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.05 22:17:00 -
[6]
Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 22:23:24
Black Ops cannot be overpowered unless CCP in fact also boost their combat perfomance. Alot. Like tank and damage or ECM ability.
What the point if you can warp cloaked and jump around like a happy hauler if you cannot win a fight with actual enemy of a comparable size (or cost, lol)?
If you can do well both covert and fight parts, then yes - it can be overpowered (unless the price is a billion isk, ooops, lol it is!).
But currently Covert Ops is pretty much suck both at covert ops, and at combat. Well, maybe only Amarr Black Ops is comparable to T1 battleships at combat... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.05 23:07:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Black Ops are too weak to farm with them. Wake up. T1 are better, not to count marauders.
Sorry bro, I'm gonna have to call BS on you here. With t2 sentries the Sin is a farming machine. With COC it would be nigh on invulerable.
Isn't the Dominix better, eh?
And all farmers will still use Navy Ravens and Golems. Wake up. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.05 23:16:00 -
[8]
Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 23:22:55
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Ok. I've never seen an isk farmer fly a Golem unless he was runnig high sec missions. In 0.0 it is 99% Domi's and Ravens.
Edit: And I'm talking about these ships using COC, not in thier current state.
I just consider highsec missions as another form of farming.
I do not see how COC make Sin better farmer compared to Dominix or Golem in that case.
As for why we do not see alot of Golems at belt farming, it is easy: Cost. Very expensive to lose. And with belt farming you will lose your ship sooner or later. It IS dangerous. No concord to save you.
Thats another reason why we will not see Black Ops farming - their cost is too much, same with Marauders.
And you cannot fully use this lovely COC while hunting in belt. You are being targeted by rats (oh noes!) or being near object (****!), or by clever decloaked hunter, or by interdictor who put you out of cloak after putting a bubble on you. Or even if you got disconnected from game.
By the way, it is pretty easy to kill Recons and even Covert Ops jumping throgh the gate in 0.0. With hunter fitted Black Ops you do not even really need a bubble.
Plenty of ways to lose your ship. ;) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.05 23:52:00 -
[9]
Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 23:57:18
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn You are misunderstanding one very important point. Professional isk farmers rat aligned. Meaning that the moment they see local pop the warp to a safe spot or a planet. When chasing a ship that cannot cloak there is a slim chance you can find the planet it is warping to with the directional scanner, warp there and decloak it. It is difficult but I have done it. With a COC equipped ship this is impossible. It cannot be scanned once it enters warp and activates it's cloak.
Only dumb farmers warp out to planets. These will die anyway.. even with COC.
Warp to POS or to a safe spot near object you align to. If you do that - no real difference if you have COC or simple T1 cloak.
Quote: I can't believe that you would argue that a COC equipped ship is as easy to capture as it's T1 counter part.
Maybe you limited expirience with these? Are you ever hunted chinese raven farmer guilds? I did. ;) I play this game for a long time... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.07 03:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Would I like to a cov ops ship that can do 800+ dps?
Yes.
Quote: Is such a thing imbalanced?
No.
Quote: I for one would like to use this ship to fight, not sneak around with my COC and do 300+ dps. As a dedicated pilgrim pilot, I am not anti-COC, I just believe that the Black Ops doesn't need one. The pilgrim does everything (short of portaling) that COC Black Ops could and does it better.
It is only yours idea that if BO get COC it must be nerfed even more as a combat platform. It is already near the edge of uselessnes as a heavy hitter and tanker. Noone will fly them in combat if they got nerfed more. Even if CCP add alot of fancy covert stuff to them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.07 14:32:00 -
[11]
Edited by: rgreat on 07/04/2009 14:32:24
Originally by: Katarlia Simov I'd LOVE to see black ops being ANYTHING other than just a gank ship. Something with some subtlety and finesse.
Thats fine by me, but i think 'subtlety and finesse' are quite lacking for now. Current Black ops do not really have a role. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.09 07:23:00 -
[12]
Edited by: rgreat on 09/04/2009 07:25:54
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn I want a full damage Black Ops with a jump drive and a functional, USEFUL portal, that I can use to take gangs into and out of hostile space without spending billions in isos and having 7 alts flying blockade runners. I don't want the force Recon's nerf-batted "big" brother.
Black ops are already nerf-batted. You simply afraid they will be nefred even more, while all this update is about boosting them.
And i still do now understand how can BO be overpowered with just adding COC to them.
Can you explain WHY it will ovepowered? What is your reasoning?
Even if you stealthy approach and uncloack with BO you cant kill target of your size solo. Whats the point of the argument?
Same skills and fitting quality, Dominix vs Sin = Dominix win. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.10 03:12:00 -
[13]
Edited by: rgreat on 10/04/2009 03:16:31 Edited by: rgreat on 10/04/2009 03:16:17
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn You can kill a target of your size solo. A Sin fit with nuets and t2 sentires will eat most other battleships for breakfast.
Login on to SiSi. Try to fighting battles with Sin... solo. You will learn about meaning of the 'failboat'. Sin can only fare well if target is outnumbered, tackled and jammed to hell. But in this situation target will die even without Sin help.
Quote: It may have a hardtime against a Domi, but Domi's can't use jump drives, Domi's can't portal, Domi's can't cloak.
Do you know the line 'master of none' ? Its about 'master' who know alot of things but cannot do anything good. As a result this 'master' lose in all categories.
Thats just about right for Sin (And black ops in general, to lesser extent).
Quote: It's the whole package, not one selected sitution. Even ship will die in a 1v1 with certian other ships.
Sin die vs most decent fitted battleships. You can't totaly compensate for it with some fancy stuff, if you still consider Sin as primary a combat ship. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.10 11:30:00 -
[14]
Edited by: rgreat on 10/04/2009 11:31:06
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn If you can't understand the HUGE advantage that COC gives I can't explain it to you.
Advantage is not that huge. Basicly it only give you more freedom of movement on target approach and better scan resolution.
With COC you not give out yourself completely for everyone who bother to use a scanner each time you need to warp around system. All other things are not very different.
So i think while COC is nice, but it must be only one of steps which is needed to make BO usefull, and it is a most logical one. Like covert ship must use covert cloak. Currently BO is the only covert ship without it... even bombers got it now.
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rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.04.10 16:55:00 -
[15]
Edited by: rgreat on 10/04/2009 17:01:15
Originally by: Ahz COC gives you complete freedom in picking your fights. In 1 on 1 combat target selection is everything.
I agree, but with slow and large 800 mil ship it is imperative that it stays this way.
Quote: In 1 on 1 combat you should never lose.
There can be surprises. Also Black Ops are quite weak combatants. You can lose easily. Remember, each time you make a mistake you can lose alot of isk.
Quote: Hang out in 0.0 and you see lots of force recons for exactly this reason. You can travel almost completely unmolested until you see someone you want to blast. The problem is that Rapiers and the like are kind of fragile.
I personally killed alot of recons who think that COC give hime ability to travel "unmolested". For a large ship it is not really much easier to travel through gatecamps with COC (compared to T1 Cloak). And recons are harder to kill compared to Sin. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.04.11 10:34:00 -
[16]
Edited by: rgreat on 11/04/2009 10:35:36
To have BO only as a logistic ship and mobile bridge platform is a waste.
Do you intend to fight with it at all? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.04.14 00:25:00 -
[17]
Edited by: rgreat on 14/04/2009 00:33:08
Originally by: Mr Ignitious Correct. What we could use now is some elaboration on what/why black ops were born then. Could shed some light on the issue(s)
My guess Black Ops were born because CCP need to make up new toy for veterans to train for. As long as you have some new flashy candy to get alot of people will continue to extend their subscription. Even if candy turns out as flashy on the outside, and kinda rotten inside.
Also it helped for EVE economy to make BO as a pretty good isk sink (high const, crappy insurance), altough it did not worked out very good, as BO are hardly used (and killed as a result).
Hopefully now CCP actually feels that candy need not to only look good, but to taste good too. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.14 20:16:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mr Ignitious 4. Changes to cov ops cyno gen changes? (cyno while cloaked)? 5. More gank? (Gank/DPS should be their tank, at least if they're supposed to be the subtlety type)
4. Cyno while moving. 5. I like idea of paper thin, but heavy damage capable covert battleships. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.16 01:20:00 -
[19]
Edited by: rgreat on 16/04/2009 01:22:46 Most severe penalty non covert cloak do to the PVP oriented black ops is scan resolution penalty. You can not target anything fast enough. In PVP is is critical. Much less so in PVE.
Second one - is inability to warp cloaked. You give out yourself on approach which is a failure for a supposed covert ship.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 11:05:00 -
[20]
Edited by: rgreat on 16/04/2009 11:05:17
Originally by: Mr Ignitious Would it not be good enough to just have covert cynoes generateable while cloaked? silences "solopwn" sentiment but allows for undetected approach of target/destination.
Covert cynos are not the panacea. Rarely used module in gangs. Most tacklers do not have it. So most of the time you have to warp to target, not jump to it...
Also cannot be used it same system, and it consume fuel, which is limited. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.16 19:00:00 -
[21]
Edited by: rgreat on 16/04/2009 19:03:50
Originally by: Mr Ignitious like i said, black ops do not belong in conventional non-cloaky gangs. They don't have the HP/tank to do so along with their price tag.
Currently they do not belong to cloaky gang either. Want a bet? 90% of your cloaked gang will NOT have a covert cyno fitted. And of these 10% who will, only 20% will remember (and dare) to use it if sutuation arise. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.04.17 00:15:00 -
[22]
Edited by: rgreat on 17/04/2009 00:18:24
Originally by: Mr Ignitious If your gang doesn't want to bring a covert cyno gen then you have no right or reason to use a black ops at all.
It's a waste to base all Black Ops usefullness around cynogen on other ship.
Cloaked cyno can be useful, but i think it is not be really different from current covert cyno, except for better survivability of a ship who light it.
Current covert cyno usage is quite tactically limited.
Please explain, how exactly and against who you want to use your 'cloaked cyno'? I'm trying to see how it helps to attack someone? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.04.17 09:02:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mr Ignitious I was trying to say it before, but I'll try and be clear this time.
Right now, if cynoer needs to uncloak to cyno then the target is preemptively alerted of the black ops jumping in giving them time to warp out or whatever. Since there is a lock delay for the cynoer it becomes tricky how you want to get your tackles then before everything tries to gtfo.
If the cyno could be made while cloaked then the black ops could enter and engage with out any prior warning. Also, they won't have that lock delay issue either to help with tackling. (In this case cloaks aren't even that crucial). How I would use them then is have my cloaky cynoer get out ahead and find a target. Once they find a target/gate camp that can be stamped out with a quick application of DPS, I'd have 5 (+/- 2, depending on what I can get) black ops jump in and wipe out whatever was there.
Hm, do you plan to use this approach against farmers in belts? These will warp out and cloak as soon as your cyno ship enter local. You don't really have time for that cyno stuff, you just need to be fast.
And if you want to wait a lot and set a trap, i think it is just better to use cloaked interdictor.
Same with the gates... target jump in... and warp out, unless you used a interdictor bubble + tacklers.
Static targets these you can take your time to approach for putting up a cyno are kinda rare. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.04.17 20:21:00 -
[24]
I'd myself like to see BO as a medium-long range heavy damager part of cloaked gangs. Not exactly sniper ships, but with range of 50-100km range, preferrably turrets with high tracking and damage. But close to no tank. With COC and fast locking.
Tactic (for example): While recons and frig work closer BO decloak at med-long range, lock target, put there 1000+ DPS and then recloak or run if under direct threat.
Portals and cynos are only secondary, just in case if situation arise. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.04.17 22:04:00 -
[25]
Edited by: rgreat on 17/04/2009 22:06:33 Well, battleships cannot be fast enough with any reasonable speed bonus, they are more or less static anyway. So i think cloaked speed bonus not needed.
For me Black ops mobility relies on rewarps. Thats why covert cloak is needed... to rewarp cloaked. It is too risky to rewarp back to battle wihtout cloak, you do not know where you exit warp. Maybe near lucky tackler, or on the edge of the bubble. This means you cant rewarp in battle, and combat value of Black Ops drops severely.
Other reason: is to have more free 'bonus slots' to use for offensive bonuses, instead of ones unnerfing harmful effects of simple cloak. With simple cloak you will need ALOT of bonuses to negate it shortcomings. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.04.17 22:39:00 -
[26]
Edited by: rgreat on 17/04/2009 22:45:13
Well, it can be so for a pirate oriented warfare where your victim is rarely put up a good fight. But with 0.0 gang fight it is not.
And about 'too good', imho slow and vulnerable 800+ mil ship which is quite easy to kill with simple cruiser (if you catch it) cannot be overpowered by mere cloak. If BO cannot fit COC i rather get dedicated T1 Battleship to gank with. Both cheaper and more effective.
Mark my words: if Black Ops will be 'try or die' style of ship, they will not be used on TQ. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.04 19:15:00 -
[27]
Subject is dropped it seems.
Pity.
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rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.05 09:00:00 -
[28]
Edited by: rgreat on 05/05/2009 09:05:55 I rather have Sin without drone bay at all.
Main problem with Sin is easy: Drones suck @ PVP. At least large ones do. They are too slow and easy to lose.
I wish Gallente BO was based on Megathron or even Hyperion, although hyperion sucks too due to weak tracking... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.06.14 02:16:00 -
[29]
Forget it guys.
Black Ops suck. And it is intended to be so. ;) |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.06.21 23:19:00 -
[30]
I wish BO was a covert gank ship. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.07.21 22:11:00 -
[31]
Originally by: murder one One major issue I have with BlackOps is that they're forced to fit improved cloaks (vs. CovOps cloaks) and they are still forced to endure the scan res penalty that comes with fitting a cloak other than a CovOps cloak.
Their scan res is already bad enough as it is. They don't need this extra penalty. Get rid of it at a minimum, if not allowing them to use CovOps cloaks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 03:33:00 -
[32]
Hello there.
Black Ops still suck @ PVP.
Good bye. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.13 14:18:00 -
[33]
Edited by: rgreat on 13/08/2009 14:18:38
Originally by: Kai Lae I've heard from a few people that there's "nothing wrong with these ships, they make nice jump haulers".
I generally get slightly ill after I hear this.
This.
Also i agree with your analysis. These things must be crystal clear for anyone who ever tried BO as a combat ship.
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rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.14 06:03:00 -
[34]
Originally by: VonCruix In the end, a BlackOps heavy gang should be at a disadvantage to a more balanced gang.
...of the same cost.
Which will be like 4-10 times more ships. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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