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Lawlor
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:44:00 -
[1]
I have see no Thread last 10 Pages for this Topic so,
Please cancel Local (like in Wormholes) at last in 0.0 and Low Sec.
Reason? in short, overall you come today you see alt chars (mostly in NPC Corp¦s) in cloak ships,docked in Stations as Local Spy¦s that check all time the Numbers and Players that jump in and out....there is no Chance atm to really surprise anyone in his System (except you use Covert Cynos and jump directly at your Target.
You make changes like to the Stealth Bomber¦s (with Covert Cloak Device) but this all is useless since even if you have a Fleet of 10 or more SB¦s (to hunt BS) everyone see them in Local....you see if People jump in and you see the Corp,Sec Status and all other Informations.
Result is that today most Fleet¦s (especially Gate Camp¦s in Low Sec) dock immediately (or jump away) as soon there is anyone, in 1-2 Jump Range of them, that is strong enough to give them a real fight.
Change Local to chat only with no other Info¦s or that only People that speak in Local will be displayed but no Characters and no Numbers more.
Its no big work but it will give EVE much more PvP, every side will face the same Risk&Reward.
Sorry for all mistakens, english is not my language 
greetings
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Malin folkungs
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:54:00 -
[2]
If this is a petition ill sign it.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:56:00 -
[3]
The problem is valid but the solution is not.
If you've ever been in W-space as a neutral entity you'd realize what an absolutely awful experience it is trying to keep up to date on what might be in your system wanting to kill you.
There needs to be an adequate replacement for local that does not involve spamming a button repeatedly every few seconds.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Malin folkungs
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:01:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Wet Ferret
The problem is valid but the solution is not.
If you've ever been in W-space as a neutral entity you'd realize what an absolutely awful experience it is trying to keep up to date on what might be in your system wanting to kill you.
There needs to be an adequate replacement for local that does not involve spamming a button repeatedly every few seconds.
Ive been living in a WH for 3 weeks now and I love local. It actually keeps you safer.
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jade ronin
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:03:00 -
[5]
there needs to be a new form of scanning (like radar) to offset the loss of local as intel tool. other wise there will be very few ratters and miners in 0.0. Finding targets will be much harder. think about it ... no ratters no roaming gangs looking for them no gate camps to catch the roaming gangs ...total break down of game play.So i would have to say no to doing away with local all together.the W-space is a bit different in the fact thats not where people live and the resources pulled from there are only for t3 production . the risk v reward factor makes it worth going in knowing you have no intel.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Malin folkungs
Ive been living in a WH for 3 weeks now and I love local. It actually keeps you safer.
Uh, what? It takes approximately 10 seconds to find out if someone is in a wormhole system. If you're not cloaked, you're going to be found out, and very fast (maybe not found, but that's beside the point, and even that won't take long).
The only thing keeping you safer is the nature and randomness of WHs, not lack of local intel.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Saya Starwind
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Posted - 2009.04.02 21:16:00 -
[7]
0.4 space and below should not track every pilot in local. Local is an information system, which means it conveys intel, this level of intel shouldnt be present in low sec systems where there is little to no civilization present, intel of this level needs to be earned manually or by device.
Instead, they could make a new structure to add to a POS or outpost, anyone belonging to the corp that has such a structure active in that system, will have limited ability to see people in local (anyone outside of AU range are not visible) the more of these structures they have situated at different POS / Outposts in the system, the better accuracy your local gets...
There should be a second AU range parameter on the structure, this determines how close a stealthed individual can be before they become visible in local.
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VoiceInTheDesert
Zebra Corp
Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.04.02 21:40:00 -
[8]
My idea would be to make the directional scanner constant while it's open...so you can just flip to the tab and watch if something shows up. Makes more sense RP wise since I doubt any future spaceships will have a sort of "snapeshot" scanner system that we are using now. Makes more sense to have it be dynamic to me.
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2009.04.03 03:26:00 -
[9]
would be nice without local in 0.0
___________________________________________
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Spurty
Caldari
Amok.
Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.04.03 03:37:00 -
[10]
yah be the end of roaming gangs (unless they want to trust the map for their 30min average info for where to go roaming) lol.
Just think without a replacement way to gather the info about people in the system, its going to back fire and be horrible mostly for those asking for it the most.
Originally by: Butter Dog
I think you'll find that 10 seconds > 1 month
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Corriander
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.03 04:53:00 -
[11]
A possible 'local' solution I put in another thread
Originally by: Corriander
The idea of doing away with local has been floating around for some time. The recent æglitchÆ to local on SISI (whether intentional or not) has sparked a few discussions/rages about its potential fate. I am completely æLocalÆ neutral, so if it stays or goes I could care less. I do, however, see a potential repurposing for the recently defunct POS module, the System Scanning Array.
Empire, for all intensive purposes, is civilized space. Per CONCORD mandate, system occupants are reported via the æLocalÆ system for all to see. Nothing changes.
Low-sec and NPC 0.0 space are a gray area since technically they are faction, not CONCORD, occupied space. For these areas, local would be paired with positive standings with the occupying faction. Take Molden Heath for example, if you have positive standings with the Minmatar Republic, local appears as it currently does. If you have neutral or negative standings, local is reported on a broadcast only basis (similar to Alliance chat). Access to ælocalÆ would be based on true standings, not as modified by the various social skills, so players seeking to gain access to ælocalÆ must earn the tactical advantage.
0.0 space, being lawless and unoccupied, does not report local by default. It acts solely on a broadcast basis where you only appear upon posting. Now bring back the System Scanning Array (SOV1 anchor, SOV2 online) and make it so the controlling alliance has the option to provide ælocalÆ through associated standings. This provides a æhome turfÆ advantage to the occupying alliance that they can see system occupants in local but hostiles can not. This also means that just as jammers and jump bridges are taken out as a part of 0.0 SOV wars, it allows local æcommunicationsÆ to be taken down as well.
The data elements to do this should already be inherent to local as standings are reported to make the little blue and red boxes next to names. All that would be needed is a conditional pre-filter to determine player access to local on a system-by-system basis.
The end result would leave local in place where it is most wanted while adding a whole new positive element to low-sec, NPC 0.0 and Alliance controlled space.
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Major Deviant
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Posted - 2009.04.03 07:31:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Corriander
A possible 'local' solution I put in another thread
Originally by: Corriander
The idea of doing away with local has been floating around for some time. The recent æglitchÆ to local on SISI (whether intentional or not) has sparked a few discussions/rages about its potential fate. I am completely æLocalÆ neutral, so if it stays or goes I could care less. I do, however, see a potential repurposing for the recently defunct POS module, the System Scanning Array.
Empire, for all intensive purposes, is civilized space. Per CONCORD mandate, system occupants are reported via the æLocalÆ system for all to see. Nothing changes.
Low-sec and NPC 0.0 space are a gray area since technically they are faction, not CONCORD, occupied space. For these areas, local would be paired with positive standings with the occupying faction. Take Molden Heath for example, if you have positive standings with the Minmatar Republic, local appears as it currently does. If you have neutral or negative standings, local is reported on a broadcast only basis (similar to Alliance chat). Access to ælocalÆ would be based on true standings, not as modified by the various social skills, so players seeking to gain access to ælocalÆ must earn the tactical advantage.
0.0 space, being lawless and unoccupied, does not report local by default. It acts solely on a broadcast basis where you only appear upon posting. Now bring back the System Scanning Array (SOV1 anchor, SOV2 online) and make it so the controlling alliance has the option to provide ælocalÆ through associated standings. This provides a æhome turfÆ advantage to the occupying alliance that they can see system occupants in local but hostiles can not. This also means that just as jammers and jump bridges are taken out as a part of 0.0 SOV wars, it allows local æcommunicationsÆ to be taken down as well.
The data elements to do this should already be inherent to local as standings are reported to make the little blue and red boxes next to names. All that would be needed is a conditional pre-filter to determine player access to local on a system-by-system basis.
The end result would leave local in place where it is most wanted while adding a whole new positive element to low-sec, NPC 0.0 and Alliance controlled space.
IMHO this is a great idea for a change in local. I do not know how the 0.0 alliances would view this.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.04.03 07:55:00 -
[13]
If you removed local you could not legitimately expect people to spam scan every 5s. That either means:
You expect them to get bored about clicking a button constantly and die.
You're going to automate the scanner.
The reason the scanner isn't automated right now is because it would cause server lag. That means wanting to remove local you either beleive ccp will actually increase server lag, or that they think the first option above is accpetable.
Then the question is, other than an automated scanner, what other intelligence tools will be provided? How will they be different enough from local to warrant the change?
I'm in favor of removing local. Or at least really strongly considering it. But if there isn't enough of a crutch to replace it, which is part of my last point, i won't fly much more than a t1 cruiser for fear of losing something expensive to a 50 man blob that was hiding in system in a deep safespot.
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CDLoon
Minmatar
Red Sky Morning
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Posted - 2009.04.03 14:36:00 -
[14]
Was about to post this - but I see you have already suggested it.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but how about delayed local only in non-sov 0.0 systems, meaning normal local in systems where sov is claimed.
*RP element would suggest claimed systems have better comms*
This will mean that large numbers of systems are viable for ambushes, and alliances would be more keen to expand their domains, weakening themselves if they reach too far.
Thoughts/smack away.
Carry on :D
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.03 15:03:00 -
[15]
Originally by: CDLoon
Was about to post this - but I see you have already suggested it.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but how about delayed local only in non-sov 0.0 systems, meaning normal local in systems where sov is claimed.
*RP element would suggest claimed systems have better comms*
This will mean that large numbers of systems are viable for ambushes, and alliances would be more keen to expand their domains, weakening themselves if they reach too far.
Thoughts/smack away.
Carry on :D
Would not work at all in systems with static content. It is far easier to find someone when you already have beacons to warp to to find ratters/miners and don't even need to scan for them.
And, yet again, this makes the victim's life absolutely miserable under current mechanics.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Vall Kor
Minmatar
ZipZoom Kaboom
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Posted - 2009.04.03 16:24:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Vall Kor on 03/04/2009 16:26:31
They would need to introduce a new way to see what's in the system, other wise defense of local space (think 0.0) would be impossible using methods currently in game. This could be a new type of probe or updated ship scanner that has to be cycled on demand.
But you will need some sort of intel tool to see what is around you (friend or foe) at all times.
"By way of deception, thou shalt do war"
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.03 16:37:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: CDLoon
Was about to post this - but I see you have already suggested it.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but how about delayed local only in non-sov 0.0 systems, meaning normal local in systems where sov is claimed.
*RP element would suggest claimed systems have better comms*
This will mean that large numbers of systems are viable for ambushes, and alliances would be more keen to expand their domains, weakening themselves if they reach too far.
Thoughts/smack away.
Carry on :D
Would not work at all in systems with static content. It is far easier to find someone when you already have beacons to warp to to find ratters/miners and don't even need to scan for them.
And, yet again, this makes the victim's life absolutely miserable under current mechanics.
^ This is what people for some reason seem to be never get. The victim will not sit there waiting to die - they'll go run missions in empire if the probability of dying is absurd - which it will be if they always have to be in a couple of well-defined places (asteroid belts).
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Corriander
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.03 16:40:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Major Deviant
Originally by: Corriander
stuff
IMHO this is a great idea for a change in local. I do not know how the 0.0 alliances would view this.
The original idea was posted in my alliance forum and was only the 0.0 part. It was they who asked me to bring it over to these forums, after which I added the faction standing part for low-sec. At least one 0.0 alliance likes the idea.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.04.03 16:50:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
If you removed local you could not legitimately expect people to spam scan every 5s. That either means:
You expect them to get bored about clicking a button constantly and die.
You're going to automate the scanner.
The reason the scanner isn't automated right now is because it would cause server lag. That means wanting to remove local you either beleive ccp will actually increase server lag, or that they think the first option above is accpetable.
Then the question is, other than an automated scanner, what other intelligence tools will be provided? How will they be different enough from local to warrant the change?
I'm in favor of removing local. Or at least really strongly considering it. But if there isn't enough of a crutch to replace it, which is part of my last point, i won't fly much more than a t1 cruiser for fear of losing something expensive to a 50 man blob that was hiding in system in a deep safespot.
Your logic is flawed since it depends on one argument that is most likely not true. There is no reason to suppose that the auto-scanner would have to unacceptably lag the server to produce useful data (and be a useful replacement for Local).
...
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.04.03 16:59:00 -
[20]
Perhaps they can have a rig that disconnects you from local in knownspace? Give it some sort of penalty (CPU?). Think there was something like that in one of the early datadumps before FW.
Taxman VII: Kingdom of Vlad
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.04.03 18:28:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 03/04/2009 18:29:04
/unsigned.
Local is fine. Period.
Originally by: Malin folkungs
Ive been living in a WH for 3 weeks now and I love local. It actually keeps you safer.
No, it doesn't. What keeps you safe, is that there is a small probability than an ennemy had found your wormhole.
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Zewdire
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Posted - 2009.04.05 17:31:00 -
[22]
Removing or delaying update of local is a hirrible idea. Local is the only thing to allert you when hostiles are in sys.
Realy hope this won't be realized by ccp as it whould make any industrial/mining impossible without huge support fleet wich then make revards close to zero. I realy hate toon that only think pvp not realizing that it's industry/mining that give them there ships/modules they fly and enjoy blowing up and all things affected by a change, get a clue on what will be the result of what you propose or don't post at all.
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Tekashi Kovacs
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.04.05 18:38:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Zewdire
Removing or delaying update of local is a hirrible idea. Local is the only thing to allert you when hostiles are in sys.
Local is also the only thing to allert 'hostiles' when you are in sys. It works in both ways and I think it would be better and much more realistic if local were removed. Also more fun if hostiles were forced to scan even empty systems to find if you are here or not. To balance it out they need to make probing players much harder tho...
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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.04.05 18:51:00 -
[24]
No local = cloak buff.
Make cloaked ships appear on directional scanner or something.
Not to pinpoint them or anything, just to let you know they're there.
It's not very fair if you attacked a wartarget and 10 of his friends immediately uncloaked now is it?
How would you know without local?
if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.05 19:14:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
If you removed local you could not legitimately expect people to spam scan every 5s. That either means:
You expect them to get bored about clicking a button constantly and die.
You're going to automate the scanner.
The reason the scanner isn't automated right now is because it would cause server lag. That means wanting to remove local you either beleive ccp will actually increase server lag, or that they think the first option above is accpetable.
Then the question is, other than an automated scanner, what other intelligence tools will be provided? How will they be different enough from local to warrant the change?
I'm in favor of removing local. Or at least really strongly considering it. But if there isn't enough of a crutch to replace it, which is part of my last point, i won't fly much more than a t1 cruiser for fear of losing something expensive to a 50 man blob that was hiding in system in a deep safespot.
Your logic is flawed since it depends on one argument that is most likely not true. There is no reason to suppose that the auto-scanner would have to unacceptably lag the server to produce useful data (and be a useful replacement for Local).
so several thousand scanners, detecting items in the hundreds and reporting the finding every few seconds for you will not have a impact on server performance?
Your faith in EVe server is great.
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Lysander Kaldenn
Viper Intel Squad
Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.04.05 19:25:00 -
[26]
If local was gone in low sec and 0.0 there would need to better intel gathering tools, thats pretty obvious.
What CCP really needs to look is the fact that in current game mechanics a professional ninja ratter/isk farmer is almost invulerable to a roaming gang. Your only hope is to spam the belts with 2 interceptors each, even then if he is ratting aligned to a safe, as is usually the case with the 24/7 farmers, your odds of catching him are 0 the instant he sees local pop. He will insta warp and cloak.
This problem will need looking into even if local is "fixed". The thing I don't want to see is cloaked recons losing their iniative bonus to whatever new local replacement, "intel gathering tool" that gets implemented.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.05 19:29:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tekashi Kovacs
Originally by: Zewdire
Removing or delaying update of local is a hirrible idea. Local is the only thing to allert you when hostiles are in sys.
Local is also the only thing to allert 'hostiles' when you are in sys. It works in both ways and I think it would be better and much more realistic if local were removed. Also more fun if hostiles were forced to scan even empty systems to find if you are here or not. To balance it out they need to make probing players much harder tho...
Quote:
Local is also the only thing to allert 'hostiles' when you are in sys.
No, it's not. Scanning a system takes seconds, and the only time you won't find out if someone is in it, is if they're cloaked or docked. You don't even need a dedicated scanner in k-space since you already know players are going to be at the belts (you can even use the directional scanner to pinpoint which one).
The situation favors the attacker while putting all the burden on the victim. Ask yourself what you would rather do, scan once or twice per system or every 5 seconds?
Rewarding the attentive is fine and all, but forcing monotonous, repetitious scanning to have any measure of safety is the wrong way to go about things.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.04.05 19:41:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
If you've ever been in W-space as a neutral entity you'd realize what an absolutely awful experience it is trying to keep up to date on what might be in your system wanting to kill you.
Odd, I am a neutral entity, I wander wh, but I never realized it. Just yesterday somebody was out to kill me, I saw him, and I gtfo.
Not really that complicated. Of course a proper ship fitting may help.
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Let Nelass
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Posted - 2009.04.05 19:45:00 -
[29]
How about if we introduce a system-wide gateflash in 0.0 systems? Whenever someone enters or leaves a 0.0 system using a jump gate a spatial distortion creates a visual effect on the HUD of everyone in the system. The duration and intensity of this effect could give some limited idea of how many (or perhaps how massive) ships are jumping in.
Let's say the standings system is used so that you communicate your presence (via local) to everyone in the system that you have positive standings towards as an automatic courtesy. This way by keeping track of local you know whether there is friendly or enemy movement, but have only a limited grasp of how much movement.
Local could be delayed by enough time to get a decent size fleet through with good organization before local updates to their presence, say 25-30 seconds.
Maybe Blockade Runners, Cov, Recon and Black Ops ships could be spared this system-flash as a role bonus. (perhaps they also have the subtle scanners needed to detect the reduced system-flashes that these stealthy ships produce)
In Empire of course these flashes would be a constant huge pain, which is why Concord has deployed special quantum spatial stabilizers to suppress it. These can also be anchored in Sov 1 and on-lined in Sov 2 systems and configured to only suppress ships that are in the alliance or that the alliance has a positive standing towards.
This way ratting and mining ships have some inclination that they should seek cover, while still making it possible to move fleets and HAC gangs quietly, as well as making scouting more interesting. It will no longer be a good idea to sit behind a cloak, as then you tip the enemy off to your presence.
Not sure how best to treat log-ins and Wormholes. Log-in flash and Wormhole flash which is qualitatively different from system-wide gate-flashes perhaps?
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Spurty
Caldari
Amok.
Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.04.05 20:10:00 -
[30]
The *only* simple solution I can think of to get local to vanish is to make the map update statistics every 30seconds with reports of 3 things:
- blue
- neutral
- red
In every system within 3~5 jumps of your current system.
Will need to have this info appear in the F11 maps
Originally by: Butter Dog
I think you'll find that 10 seconds > 1 month
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.04.05 20:30:00 -
[31]
Edited by: RedSplat on 05/04/2009 20:33:45
Delayed local in Lowsec and Null.
The current farce of having an omniscient intel tool utterly ruins any pretense at stealth, favors passive non-aggressive gameplay and runs roughshod over immersion.
"Oh look, outlaws in system, lets dock up and wait for them to leave"
Lowsec/0.0 should be dangerous- Warning individuals that otherss may be nearby in an infallible manner should not happen, period.
If people want to use local as a social tool they will still be able to do so, hell add in an option whereby players can set whether they automatically appear in delayed local or whether they need to post first.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep.
I am always here.
Watching.
Waiting.
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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.04.05 20:39:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Originally by: Wet Ferret
If you've ever been in W-space as a neutral entity you'd realize what an absolutely awful experience it is trying to keep up to date on what might be in your system wanting to kill you.
Odd, I am a neutral entity, I wander wh, but I never realized it. Just yesterday somebody was out to kill me, I saw him, and I gtfo.
Not really that complicated. Of course a proper ship fitting may help.
Exactly how would you know someone is out to kill you with the way the probe system works now?
I have no authority to speak about scanning for ships as I haven't done it since apocrypha since everyone says its really really hard now.
But if it's anything like scanning for another stuff, you'd never know until they warped on top of you.
Pre apocrypha they'd have to warp within your directional scanner range and if you were in the middle of nowhere, it was usually a hint to gtfo if they were a cov ops.
if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature. |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.04.05 22:14:00 -
[33]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy
Exactly how would you know someone is out to kill you with the way the probe system works now?
As I did preapoc. Directional scanner to find enemy combat probes. If you understand the scanner system you can derive how far probes must be from you to get a 100% fix on your ship and can even restrict that range.
I usually don't bother, full range is fine, most people won't even bother to stay outside your directional scanner range.
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Spurty
Caldari
Amok.
Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.04.06 06:41:00 -
[34]
Space Wander = lame reply.
feel free to undock and just spend all your P L A Y time pumping the 'scan' button.
Some of us load up this G A M E to P L A Y, not to get repetitive strain injury
Originally by: Butter Dog
I think you'll find that 10 seconds > 1 month
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Virgo I'Platonicus
Zoners
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Posted - 2009.04.06 07:42:00 -
[35]
signed.
the new scannign system + stargates as constant in / out system allow this sandbox game to put 0.0 local to delayed.
V.
<3 |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.06 07:56:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Virgo I'Platonicus
signed.
the new scannign system + stargates as constant in / out system allow this sandbox game to put 0.0 local to delayed.
V.
I assume that means you're volunteering for the job? 
Don't worry, sitting around cloaked watching for stargate activations is almost as exciting as clicking scan every few seconds and scrolling through the list for new entries!
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Virgo I'Platonicus
Zoners
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Posted - 2009.04.06 08:16:00 -
[37]
Thanks for the position, but it's high time alliances rly DID some job monitoring their borders.
Local was their easy tool long enough :)
btw dont try using lvl 5 "reading between the lines" where lvl 5 "sarcasm detector" is required :)
tata,
V.
<3 |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.04.06 08:46:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Spurty
Space Wander = lame reply.
Spurty = troll reply. Your answer is a mix of laziness/ignorance/hyperbole. I value it as such.
Originally by: Spurty
feel free to undock and just spend all your P L A Y time pumping the 'scan' button.
That's odd, I thought I was raiding a radar complex while the bad guys were after me... I suppose the reverse engineering I did few minutes afterwards and the consequent blueprints are just due to a stuff dropped in a jetcan at a stargate for everybody to pick.
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Spurty
Caldari
Amok.
Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.04.06 09:41:00 -
[39]
oh yes, you should try reading my replies about the subject plus pretty much the only half decent solution in this thread that solves the problem without making the game unplayable for the majority.
trolling someone pointing out your completely weak and intolerable excuse for a replacement is lame once more and why local isn't going away anyplace people have invested time securing using current mechanics.
Originally by: Butter Dog
I think you'll find that 10 seconds > 1 month
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Azver Deroven
Amarr
Legion Of The ShiningStar
Brotherhood of Legion's
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Posted - 2009.04.06 09:58:00 -
[40]
Well, here's my 2 cents.
Lets presume there's an entity scanning the system. These probes use some sort of signal to do so.
This signal can then spot whatever in its range. Whatever in its range should also notice the signal, no?
Bit like active sonar gives also away whoever sent the ping.
What Im getting at is, passive local is fine. But if someone scans you with a probe you should also see the signal. Afterall a powerful pulse or whatever the probes use to find you, should by any strech of imagination be detectable.
AKA scanning can find you your target, but it might also scare it away, use at your own risk.
Everyone's happy, no?
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My views do not represent those of my alliance, corporation or myself. Trully, sometimes I manage to confuse even myself.
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Perdita XNitt
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Posted - 2009.04.06 11:25:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Azver Deroven
Well, here's my 2 cents.
Lets presume there's an entity scanning the system. These probes use some sort of signal to do so.
This signal can then spot whatever in its range. Whatever in its range should also notice the signal, no?
Bit like active sonar gives also away whoever sent the ping.
What Im getting at is, passive local is fine. But if someone scans you with a probe you should also see the signal. Afterall a powerful pulse or whatever the probes use to find you, should by any strech of imagination be detectable.
AKA scanning can find you your target, but it might also scare it away, use at your own risk.
Everyone's happy, no?
That doesn't really help the miners and ratters that can be found without the use of probes. They'll still have to spam the directional scanner.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.04.06 13:01:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Spurty
trolling someone pointing out your completely weak and intolerable excuse for a replacement is lame once more
Are you on crack? You asked how I managed to do something you claimed impossible. I answered. Since you don't like the answer, now I am trolling. Your openmindedness is really astounding.
Besides, the "spamming every few seconds" is a clear exaggeration. You need spamming (every minute, not "few seconds") only if you want to be 100% safe. If you want that and can't be bothered to dedicate part of your attention (about 1/60th) to what happens around you, I suggest highsec. And I say that as a victim.
However if that's a troll it's pretty decent. 6/10.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.06 16:37:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Besides, the "spamming every few seconds" is a clear exaggeration. You need spamming (every minute, not "few seconds") only if you want to be 100% safe. If you want that and can't be bothered to dedicate part of your attention (about 1/60th) to what happens around you, I suggest highsec. And I say that as a victim.
It's not an exaggeration. It's what you need to do to be safe, otherwise you may as well not bother. It takes very little time to scan someone down, and you don't even need to scan them down in k-space (ie: it's much easier to find victims in the first place).
Nobody cares about your personal experience in the matter, and I'm sure we can all fit a lolinertiastab ship and align waiting for someone to uncloak next to us and speed off into the sunset, but this has nothing to do with that, and more to do with the general lack of awareness you have when not scanning constantly.
BTW, good luck getting anywhere if you're scrambled or in a mining rig. There are situations where you need to know if someone is coming way ahead of time to have a hope of getting to safety.
tl;dr - spare us the irrelevant BS, address the point or kindly stfu
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Azver Deroven
Amarr
Legion Of The ShiningStar
Brotherhood of Legion's
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Posted - 2009.04.06 18:33:00 -
[44]
Much as I'd like everyone to be safe, if you're in known location of hostile enviroment, ofcorse you get targetted. If you go to a lowsec, you SHOULD be viable target. Especially if you stay within pre-known spots. Or do combatants usually leave those known chokepoints unattended?
Basicly, what I sugested would fix non-cloakers warping about, safespot users and generally reduce the use of probes to jump someone, cause you'd need to decide wether you want easy sweep trough system or the benefit of suprise. They'd still be needed for safespot users and alike, also it might just reinforce the use of probes in defensive purposes. AKA having your own probes out there, using them to detect incomming to the system.
If you stand on the street, someone walks behind you, it was natural occurance afterall you stood in a public place. Now same thing, you're in a pre-designated point of intrest, a belt, someone warps to the belt. Natural occurance, no?
Would also change the fact that you can camp in safespot to monitor system trafic, you either need to have probes out that alert the people that someone's actively tracking them, or in cloak at the gate, that reduces the gates you can watch to 1.
Cant see much downsides to it other than the few "Bwaaaa Im not safe in low-sec"... Lets face it, lowsec isnt ment to be safe, now is it?
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My views do not represent those of my alliance, corporation or myself. Trully, sometimes I manage to confuse even myself.
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VoiceInTheDesert
Zebra Corp
Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.04.06 18:41:00 -
[45]
I had an idea a while back that canceled local and gave different directional scan ranges to different classes of ships depending on how big/specialized the ship was (cov ops and recons having long scan ranges, frigs and rookie ships having very short ones).
I liked this idea because it gave scout ships an advantage in the role they are supposed to have (seeing enemies without being seen). It would have also prevented rookie ships in ss's from seeing the whole system and warning people of passer's by since their directional scan range would be so low. They would at least have to devote a dedicated cov ops pilot to such a role now.
But that might be a bit too much coding...and no one replied, so perhaps it's not as good an idea as I think it is.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.04.06 18:51:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
It takes very little time to scan someone down,
That's odd, I continously watch those threads with pirates whining how hard is now to scan people. Since both sides seem to whine quite a lot I tend to think the current balance situation is about right.
Originally by: Wet Ferret
and you don't even need to scan them down in k-space (ie: it's much easier to find victims in the first place).
You are saying you want a 100% safety net in low/null-sec while not taking any precaution? Are we playingthe same game?
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Nobody cares about your personal experience in the matter,
I beg your pardon? I could have sworn you wrote this thing:
Originally by: Wet Ferret
If you've ever been in W-space as a neutral entity you'd realize what an absolutely awful experience it is trying to keep up to date on what might be in your system wanting to kill you.
You just got burnt by your own words and now are sore about the fact that somebody brings counterexamples to your arguments. Biased at your best, my compliments. :-)
Originally by: Wet Ferret
I'm sure we can all fit a lolinertiastab ship
Obviously you have no idea what I was talking about about fitting. Not my problem.
Originally by: Wet Ferret
tl;dr - spare us the irrelevant BS, address the point or kindly stfu
Considering I was answering to your point I suppose the logic consequence of this sentence is that your point is irrelevant BS. Which is probably perfectly true.
Honestly I don't mind much whether local comes and go. Differently from many people in this thread I can manage either way. But, despite being a victim, I am sick as hell of people wanting 100% intel on silver platter. And I am talking of both hunter and hunted.
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Great Artista
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.06 18:59:00 -
[47]
What happened to the idea of replacing instant local with instant constellation?
I thought it has the best of both worlds; people don't get too smart and start spamming the scanner all the time bloody time, making anything but cloakys impossible to fly and yet face appearing in chat doesn't mean OMGDOCK.
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Agent Known
Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.04.06 19:00:00 -
[48]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
I had an idea a while back that canceled local and gave different directional scan ranges to different classes of ships depending on how big/specialized the ship was (cov ops and recons having long scan ranges, frigs and rookie ships having very short ones).
I liked this idea because it gave scout ships an advantage in the role they are supposed to have (seeing enemies without being seen). It would have also prevented rookie ships in ss's from seeing the whole system and warning people of passer's by since their directional scan range would be so low. They would at least have to devote a dedicated cov ops pilot to such a role now.
But that might be a bit too much coding...and no one replied, so perhaps it's not as good an idea as I think it is.
But then you put a newer player at a disadvantage, as well as people who just want to rat in lowsec. Can't see ratting in lowsec or 0.0 with a covops, can you?
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.06 20:13:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
I beg your pardon? I could have sworn you wrote this thing:
Originally by: Wet Ferret
If you've ever been in W-space as a neutral entity you'd realize what an absolutely awful experience it is trying to keep up to date on what might be in your system wanting to kill you.
You just got burnt by your own words and now are sore about the fact that somebody brings counterexamples to your arguments. Biased at your best, my compliments. :-)
Obviously you weren't trying to keep up to date on your surroundings so my statement doesn't apply to you. Your argument (if you can even call it that) is based on the idea that intel not only isn't deserved, but isn't even needed, which is inherently false.
Anyway, you're an idiot, and so this is the last response you'll get from me here. They aren't going to remove local from k-space under current mechanics, because they know better. That is the bottom line.
Now have fun with your trolling.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Tekashi Kovacs
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.04.06 22:45:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Azver Deroven
Well, here's my 2 cents.
Lets presume there's an entity scanning the system. These probes use some sort of signal to do so.
This signal can then spot whatever in its range. Whatever in its range should also notice the signal, no?
Bit like active sonar gives also away whoever sent the ping.
What Im getting at is, passive local is fine. But if someone scans you with a probe you should also see the signal. Afterall a powerful pulse or whatever the probes use to find you, should by any strech of imagination be detectable.
AKA scanning can find you your target, but it might also scare it away, use at your own risk.
Everyone's happy, no?
Awesome idea.
/signed
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Azver Deroven
Amarr
Legion Of The ShiningStar
Brotherhood of Legion's
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Posted - 2009.04.07 07:09:00 -
[51]
Well 'is best I can come up with.
But I dont think many others would still let you have some warning if you're not asleep, presuming you're not found by blind luck (Aka warping from belt to belt)
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My views do not represent those of my alliance, corporation or myself. Trully, sometimes I manage to confuse even myself.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.04.07 09:16:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 07/04/2009 09:22:27
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 07/04/2009 09:21:58
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Obviously you weren't trying to keep up to date on your surroundings so my statement doesn't apply to you.
 I suggest you practice the lost art known as "reading". They say it's pretty useful, especially when coupled with the action of turning on the brain.
You are seriously stating that since I found the enemy on directional scanner, and gtfo before they warped on my position I "obviously" wasn't paying attention to my surroundings? That's a cogent argument.
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Your argument (if you can even call it that) is based on the idea that intel not only isn't deserved, but isn't even needed,
Again, practicing the lost art mentioned above might help you quite a lot. In the specific case would you care to mention where did I state that intel is not needed? My argument is that it is not deserved, nothing more.
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Now have fun with your trolling.
Well, I disagree with you, and I mention specific counterexamples, so "obviously" I am trolling.
Originally by: Wet Ferret
They aren't going to remove local from k-space under current mechanics, because they know better.
I see. This is why greyscale mentioned they are planning to review the intel suite. Because there is no problem with it and they know better. 
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.04.07 10:18:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 07/04/2009 10:25:46
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
I had an idea a while back that canceled local and gave different directional scan ranges to different classes of ships depending on how big/specialized the ship was (cov ops and recons having long scan ranges, frigs and rookie ships having very short ones).
I have always wondered why a 360 degree scan should have the same range as a 5 degree range. It's a well known principle that the lower is the degree of an aerial (both transmitter and receiver) the larger is its gain (i.e. range).
The suggested method above of combining active and passive scanning techniques, where probes would be an active scanner and directional scanner would be passive, is not a bad idea.
My only concern is that currently directional scanner is too precise to be passive. It gives more information about ship types than the probes with 50% sig str, and it's 100% accurate, which passive scanners typically are not.
It should probably be capable to detect only ships whose scan size is above a certain threshold, where the size of the threashold should depend on
1) The angle.
2) The distance.
3) The scanning ship scan size or scan resolution. In this way, advantage is given to small ships, but proper modules like ECCM or sensor booster would be useful to improve its effectiveness.
Anyway, greyscale said that they are considering to revisit the whole intel suit, and already mentioned he liked the mechanism connected with active and passive sonars, so I think that it's a good thing to keep these ideas flowing.
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Kamen
SRBI
Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.04.07 20:48:00 -
[54]
Resident: Hello! Is this the police?
Police Officer: Yes sir, this is the police.
Resident: Sorry to bother you sir, but I think I have some Chinese farmers inside my house. They have been plundering my fridge since yesterday.
Police Officer: Yes sir, but we can't help you if you can't tell us for sure if they are there. Are they in local?
Resident: Local no longer works since the patch. Well a minute ago one just passed me. I saw him at the kitchen.
Police Officer: Well sorry sir, but we need you to scramble one so we can help you.
Resident: Well he keeps jumping between safespots and with the new scanning system, it's impossible to find him. he is somewhere between the stove and the fridge, but I can't scan him out.
Police Officer: Sir, we are sorry, but we still need you to scan him out for us. Maybe if you brought all your neighbors you could scramble him before he logs off.
Resident: Well .. sorry to bother you sir. He is no longer on scan. I guess he has a cloak.
Police Officer: No problem sir. Enjoy your new Chinese farmers.
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(Recruiting ad)
SRBI regrutuju! Dodjite na nas javni SRBI kanal. Kontakt Soder/Me West |
Conroy Peckerwood
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.04.07 21:17:00 -
[55]
Nice one Kamen
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.04.08 07:27:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kamen
Police Officer: Well sorry sir, but we need you to scramble one so we can help you.
Resident: Well he keeps jumping between safespots and with the new scanning system, it's impossible to find him. he is somewhere between the stove and the fridge, but I can't scan him out.
Sorry, but this sketch appears to be far from from truth. Who is the "Police Officer" in this sketch? From what you wrote it appears to be CCP, but why should CCP interfere with attended gameplay (as cycling between safespots seems to indicate)?
Also... without local how would the "chinese farmer" know that he has to start warping between safespots unless you blunder your approach to him and alert him of your presence? And how would he know that he has to decloak and start farming again? Cloak is a double edged weapon, you know.
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Galenea Moreau
Trioptimum
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Posted - 2009.04.08 08:35:00 -
[57]
Personally I've always liked the idea of player disruptable local for 0.0
Create an reasonably cheap, anchorable self powered module with reasonable shields and armor. Make it need Sov 1 to anchor. Put it on a moon and let it run. Invading groups, i.e. Black Ops teams, can attack the 'Comms Relay' and knock out local for the system till someone comes along and repairs it and NO it doesn't anchor at a POS because we want to encourage small gangs to fight over these things. For systems with outposts you can make it an outpost system that can be tartgeted
It's good for a few things, diversionary actions and full scale invasions. You can also use it to attack the enemies supply lines if you know what their shipping routes are.
Then you just leave the unclaimed space in the same format as W-Space with no one to maintain the interstallar comms
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Rooky2001
Black-Wing
Empire of Serenity
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Posted - 2009.04.08 10:51:00 -
[58]
switch lowsec and 0.0 to the hidden belts systems like w-space. So every ganker has to scan the sigs. switch off the local. ratter and miner have to use the onboard scanner to scan for probes and all will be fine. No instant ganks only the prober was there sometimes before.
the belts will respawn on other positions after clearing. so no perma booksmarks for sites.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.04.08 11:13:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Anyway, greyscale said that they are considering to revisit the whole intel suit, and already mentioned he liked the mechanism connected with active and passive sonars, so I think that it's a good thing to keep these ideas flowing.
We'll just have to wait and see what CCP has installed for us, it looks like they've made up their minds on what changes to implement.
I for one would do away with the local. If 0.0 alliances cannot control the gates, cannot afford to scan down targets, their lines are overstretched and that space could be put to better use by someone else.
Black Sun Empire |
Dulas
Caldari
Corp 1 Allstars
PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.04.08 15:41:00 -
[60]
After giving this some thought, I think all removing local will do is increase blobing, and reduce 0.0 and low sec activity of ratting, mining and roaming. It will seriously slow down roving gangs, and I am sure it will impact the decision to engage other entities.
Current operations dictate that the FC at least have a clue about what they face to make the right call, and this is with one scout. Now we going to need more scouts just to get the same intel? More yawn, less brawn.
I think things are fine the way they are now. No local = more spies. Another account please?
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NeoTheo
Dark Materials
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2009.04.08 16:35:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Spurty
Space Wander = lame reply.
feel free to undock and just spend all your P L A Y time pumping the 'scan' button.
Some of us load up this G A M E to P L A Y, not to get repetitive strain injury
i agree in the most part, my issue is that i want local gone, so id like the directional scanner revamped to be less ******ed than it is now. more filters, a angle viewer so you see without using your own bracket box and most importantly, a button that refreshest the scan every X seconds.
directional scann has hardly changed in YEARS, it need fixing. your in space, your scanner should suck arse a lot less than it does.
local gone, better long range scanning tools.
Dark Materials |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.04.08 16:37:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Dulas
After giving this some thought, I think all removing local will do is increase blobing, and reduce 0.0 and low sec activity of ratting, mining and roaming. It will seriously slow down roving gangs, and I am sure it will impact the decision to engage other entities.
Possibly. However I am pretty sure that, even if CCP removes local, whatever goes in its place will be something that makes detection of blobs pretty easy, while detection of small, agile gangs harder.
Originally by: Dulas
Current operations dictate that the FC at least have a clue about what they face to make the right call, and this is with one scout. Now we going to need more scouts just to get the same intel? More yawn, less brawn.
Any serious military operation requires a serious intel department, not just a single spy here and there. If a fleet/corp/alliance cannot field a serious intel gathering they don't deserve the fleet. Besides, saying that blobs are favored is pretty much matter of opinion. While some FC might decide to move in blob to take care of any occurrence, there will always be that failed intel might land you into a larger blob. So more than one FC won't take chances without proper intel, effectively RESTRICTING the range of action of blobs.
Originally by: Dulas
I think things are fine the way they are now. No local = more spies. Another account please?
Do you realize you are giving CCP more reasons to remove local?
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.04.08 19:36:00 -
[63]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 08/04/2009 19:40:02
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Originally by: Dulas
Current operations dictate that the FC at least have a clue about what they face to make the right call, and this is with one scout. Now we going to need more scouts just to get the same intel? More yawn, less brawn.
If I remember well, the star map (color stars by) allows you to view certain statistics pertaining to system loading: number of players docked and active, number of players in space in the last 30 min, station count and even total players in that system (just hover the mouse over the system).
That should ease the job for a scout.
Black Sun Empire |
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