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Rip Striker	Posted - 2009.04.02 20:31:00 - [1] Edited by: Rip Striker on 02/04/2009 20:31:48 Hi All skills at level 5 with appropriate weapons and navy ammo, without implants or damage modifiers this gives: Wolf, 160 DPS with Autocannon II, range 0.8+7.5 km -- Retribution, 156 DPS with Medium Pulse Laser II, range 5.6+2.5 km -- Ishkur, 208 DPS with Light Electron Blaster II, range 0.8+2 km (+drone range) -- Harpy, 198 DPS with Light Neutron Blaster II, range 2.5+3.1 km -- Vengeance, 87 DPS with Rocker Launcher II, range 10.1 km Is this a joke? Because it aint funny. Rockets are supposed to be doing serious damage. All i see is that rockets are doing 50% or less than the other assault ships. Aprils fool for those who have trained missiles skills and want to pilot assault ships. Yeah, that's me! So laughs are on one me when i lose my vengeance to yet another Ishkur or whatever. Anyone with half a brain knows that cap is not a matter when it comes to small ship fights as they typically last less than a minute. Range is no issue either, the Vengeance has a poor base velocity and cant really keep a distance against other assault ships. So what is the Vengance supposed to do? Tank? Why? It is an ASSAULT SHIP! I want to assault other ships, not to tank them while i wear them down, which is impossible by the way (hence this post). How about CCP takes a good look at what is wrong and comes up with a decent solution? Fly safe
Lord Ryan Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.04.02 21:05:00 - [2] Edited by: Lord Ryan on 02/04/2009 21:05:21 All skills at level 5 with appropriate weapons and navy ammo, without implants or damage modifiers this gives: Wolf, 160 DPS with Autocannon II, range 0.8+7.5 km (never used) -- Retribution, 156 DPS with Medium Pulse Laser II, range 5.6+2.5 km (can not tackle, so useless for solo pvp) -- Ishkur, 208 DPS with Light Electron Blaster II, range 0.8+2 km (+drone range) (good ship, i use with alt) -- Harpy, 198 DPS with Light Neutron Blaster II, range 2.5+3.1 km (never used) -- Vengeance, 87 DPS with Rocker Launcher II, range 10.1 km (can tackle, so useful in pvp)i've killed with ship, but its more of a support ship! Have you tired missile launchers on it? i plan on try this out one day. Fly safe
Rip Striker	Posted - 2009.04.03 07:45:00 - [3] I demand that rockets get an upgrade!
Lifelongnoob Caldari Final Conflict UK Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.04.03 09:48:00 - [4] have u trained warhead upgrades? that improves rocket dps alot
Clansworth Good Rock Materials	Posted - 2009.04.03 10:18:00 - [5] Originally by: Lord Ryan Have you tired missile launchers on it? i plan on try this out one day. Rockets actually have a higher dps than standard missiles (unless they're fired from assault launchers). The tradeoff is shorter range. System Influence
Rip Striker	Posted - 2009.04.03 15:18:00 - [6] Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: Lord Ryan Have you tired missile launchers on it? i plan on try this out one day. Rockets actually have a higher dps than standard missiles (unless they're fired from assault launchers). The tradeoff is shorter range. Depends on the ship bonus. Fact remains, rocket damage is unacceptably low. Rockets are supposed to be the close range alternative to light missiles, which means shorter range and higher dps. To me the 4-fold decrease in range with rockets (compared to light missiles) is not justified but the barely noticable higher dps.
Frug Repo Industries	Posted - 2009.04.03 16:06:00 - [7] Yeah they're pretty craptacular. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor
Lord Ryan Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.04.03 18:03:00 - [8] Originally by: Lifelongnoob have u trained warhead upgrades? that improves rocket dps alot Thank you! I wondered if any of the missile skills affected rockets.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.04.03 18:07:00 - [9] Originally by: Lord Ryan Originally by: Lifelongnoob have u trained warhead upgrades? that improves rocket dps alot Thank you! I wondered if any of the missile skills affected rockets. Almost all of them do. I think Guided Missile Precision is the only generic missile skill which doesn't affect rockets.
Rip Striker	Posted - 2009.04.04 08:58:00 - [10] Rockets should get some damage boost. The Hawk and Vengeance (both rocket based) are dishing out around 80 dps with almost maxed skills. These two assault ships dont stand a chance against other assault ships (and some interceptors too...like the taranis which can dish out 150 dps). Why is this? Are we, the missile users, supposed to change to turret based ships to become successful? Proposed idea: Boost rocket damage by 50%.
Rip Striker	Posted - 2009.04.05 11:45:00 - [11] I vote for upgrading rocket damage!
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.04.05 13:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Rip Striker I vote for upgrading rocket damage! Yes, you said. Let me know when this becomes a democracy.
tyne darkdown	Posted - 2009.04.21 18:30:00 - [13] I completely agree with Rip Striker. Rocket damage is a big problem. For those of you who have suggested training other skills to boost the damage he posted, please remember that the vengeance is putting out that kind of DPS with all skills at level 5. For those of you suggesting that he try missiles instead, remember that this boat gets a rocket bonus, not a missile bonus. If the boat can't compete using the ordinance it was meant to use then there is a clear problem. That said, the bonus on the vengeance is pretty standard, 5% to rocket dmg per level. I don't see any problem with that, the problem is with rockets themselves. Personally my calculations show rockets needing closer to a 100% boost to damage than 50% but I obviously wouldn't turn 50% down. Anyway the core issue is that there's no reason for the vengeance to exist at all with how little DPS rockets do. It is completely non-competitive. These sorts of discussions invariably end in a discussion of how well the vengeance tanks. Can't argue that but my experiences (and yes I've lost a lot of vengeances in PVP) is that the vengeance tanks maybe 5%-10% better than your average assault ship. Given that it only does 40%-60% of the damage of its peers, the tank doesn't come close to making up for the DPS gap. Anyway, I'd love to see some changes made to rockets as they're easily my favorite weapon type on a conceptual level. If they were even remotely competitive I'd be right back in my vengeance. Thanks for bringing this up Rip.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.04.21 18:51:00 - [14] Is this argument based on experience or EFT warriorship? Because looking at EFT numbers and deciding to not even try out a certain ship/fitting is not very useful. Apart from that it should not be omitted that missiles don't have tracking or falloff. Neither do they require cap. At 8,3 km a Wolf won't deal 160 DPS. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
tyne darkdown	Posted - 2009.04.21 19:20:00 - [15] Originally by: Tarron Sarek Is this argument based on experience or EFT warriorship? Because looking at EFT numbers and deciding to not even try out a certain ship/fitting is not very useful. Apart from that it should not be omitted that missiles don't have tracking or falloff. Neither do they require cap. At 8,3 km a Wolf won't deal 160 DPS. I found the problems with rockets in PVP and then later turned to EFT to figure out what the numbers behind my conundrum were. I concede that missiles in general present some nice advantages over turrets (thus my interest) but the fact that tracking doesn't apply to rockets doesn't nearly make up the DPS gap. Additionally, the lack of fall-off is actually a disadvantage to a missile boat, not an advantage. Missiles have zero chance of doing any damage outside max range where as turrets have some percentage chance of success thanks to their falloff. I don't think it makes sense to argue that missile (rocket or otherwise) boats are competitive even with drastically lower DPS. Yes they don't need to worry about tracking but in this case, the absolute best case scenario (e.g. all rockets hit for 100% damage) you're still doing significantly less damage than your opponent. A real world example: Let's assume that a crack vengeance pilot is fighting another (non-vengeance) assault ship in a 1 vs. 1 at some range that allows his rockets to always hit. Let's say they're orbiting at 3k. The max dps of that vengeance is 50% of what his opponent is capable of putting out from a raw numbers perspective. Therefore, the vengeance pilot has to figure out some way to make his opponent miss at least 50% of the time in order to ensure that the damage he's taking is -equal- to the damage he's putting out. I too assumed I was missing something and that the vengeance really had some angle or that there was some technique that could be used to be competitive. I've fit it and flown it in more configuration than you can shake a stick at. I can get the DPS up to 120 if I completely drop my tank. I can get the boat moving pretty fast if I drop both my tank and my 20 extra DPS. Doesn't matter. The long and short is that this boat is a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest. Doesn't matter how you fly it, the DPS is just not there to compete.
Arch Alterius	Posted - 2009.04.21 19:49:00 - [16] Originally by: Tarron Sarek Is this argument based on experience or EFT warriorship? Because looking at EFT numbers and deciding to not even try out a certain ship/fitting is not very useful. Apart from that it should not be omitted that missiles don't have tracking or falloff. Neither do they require cap. At 8,3 km a Wolf won't deal 160 DPS. If you flew any rocket dedicated ship you wouldn't be saying they're fair game. Also lol @ your comment of an EFT warrior ship; clearly the Vengeance is not.
tyne darkdown	Posted - 2009.04.24 17:22:00 - [17] bump

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