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Yakoza
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Posted - 2004.08.24 23:54:00 -
[121]
Most of those "utility" slots were for missles before the giant beta nerf bat that changed the game entirely. --------------------------------------------- The opinions posted here are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the goals or opinions of my corperation or affiliates. "BS > Cruiser | Cruiser > Frigate | Frigate(s) > BS" -Vlad Hazzard "'You wreck Asteroid (Scordite) for 215 m3 of ore'" -Pandora Panda "It seems that some people think that by aquiring a battleship they are entitled to some kind of invulnerability-switch -Marc Wiatt |

Yakoza
|
Posted - 2004.08.24 23:54:00 -
[122]
Most of those "utility" slots were for missles before the giant beta nerf bat that changed the game entirely. --------------------------------------------- The opinions posted here are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the goals or opinions of my corperation or affiliates. "BS > Cruiser | Cruiser > Frigate | Frigate(s) > BS" -Vlad Hazzard "'You wreck Asteroid (Scordite) for 215 m3 of ore'" -Pandora Panda "It seems that some people think that by aquiring a battleship they are entitled to some kind of invulnerability-switch -Marc Wiatt |

ActiveX
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Posted - 2004.08.24 23:56:00 -
[123]
Are you serious? The Moa has 4 guns and 2 launchers. Looks like good offense to me.
Caldari only really have three EW ships, Griffin, Blackbird, and Scorpion. All the others are shield tankers. Moa should probably get a 5th mid and lose a low, but then the BB will be less amazing. ____________ Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000 
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ActiveX
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Posted - 2004.08.24 23:56:00 -
[124]
Are you serious? The Moa has 4 guns and 2 launchers. Looks like good offense to me.
Caldari only really have three EW ships, Griffin, Blackbird, and Scorpion. All the others are shield tankers. Moa should probably get a 5th mid and lose a low, but then the BB will be less amazing. ____________ Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000 
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.25 00:03:00 -
[125]
caldari dont get bonus damage and so, or even bonueses for the guns thy use (still this crap 10% range ingame? or got it finally changed?)
only caracal and kestrel are ships with extreme high damage output in their classes,
moa isnt that great damage dealer with 250er and heavy launchers, not bad but not enough to justify to say caldari ? good offence, no way
maller = medium offence, very good defence imho Wanna fly with me?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.25 00:03:00 -
[126]
caldari dont get bonus damage and so, or even bonueses for the guns thy use (still this crap 10% range ingame? or got it finally changed?)
only caracal and kestrel are ships with extreme high damage output in their classes,
moa isnt that great damage dealer with 250er and heavy launchers, not bad but not enough to justify to say caldari ? good offence, no way
maller = medium offence, very good defence imho Wanna fly with me?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.25 00:05:00 -
[127]
Originally by: ActiveX Are you serious? The Moa has 4 guns and 2 launchers. Looks like good offense to me.
Caldari only really have three EW ships, Griffin, Blackbird, and Scorpion. All the others are shield tankers. Moa should probably get a 5th mid and lose a low, but then the BB will be less amazing.
and caldari have exect kestrel, bb, caracal and scorpion/raven as usefull ships
1,5 damage dealers 2.5 EW ships and 1x well, raven is THE missle boat, perfect for short small battles at short distances Wanna fly with me?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.25 00:05:00 -
[128]
Originally by: ActiveX Are you serious? The Moa has 4 guns and 2 launchers. Looks like good offense to me.
Caldari only really have three EW ships, Griffin, Blackbird, and Scorpion. All the others are shield tankers. Moa should probably get a 5th mid and lose a low, but then the BB will be less amazing.
and caldari have exect kestrel, bb, caracal and scorpion/raven as usefull ships
1,5 damage dealers 2.5 EW ships and 1x well, raven is THE missle boat, perfect for short small battles at short distances Wanna fly with me?
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Calyn
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Posted - 2004.08.25 00:43:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Nafri maller = medium offence, very good defence imho
That defens is actually not up to par. Yes, it's defense is better than others, but only slightly so. Not enough to justify their poor offense. To leave it as it is the Mallers armour resist bonus should be raised to somewhere between 7.5% and 10% per cruiser level. Coupled with 100MW more to fix that critical grid shortage.
In that case, that 6th turret could be left out as the Maller would be a tank, soaking damage. _________________________________________________ War transcends all barriers of species, race, religion, and civilization. |

Calyn
|
Posted - 2004.08.25 00:43:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Nafri maller = medium offence, very good defence imho
That defens is actually not up to par. Yes, it's defense is better than others, but only slightly so. Not enough to justify their poor offense. To leave it as it is the Mallers armour resist bonus should be raised to somewhere between 7.5% and 10% per cruiser level. Coupled with 100MW more to fix that critical grid shortage.
In that case, that 6th turret could be left out as the Maller would be a tank, soaking damage. _________________________________________________ War transcends all barriers of species, race, religion, and civilization. |

Nafri
|
Posted - 2004.08.25 00:49:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Calyn
Originally by: Nafri maller = medium offence, very good defence imho
That defens is actually not up to par. Yes, it's defense is better than others, but only slightly so. Not enough to justify their poor offense. To leave it as it is the Mallers armour resist bonus should be raised to somewhere between 7.5% and 10% per cruiser level. Coupled with 100MW more to fix that critical grid shortage.
In that case, that 6th turret could be left out as the Maller would be a tank, soaking damage.
10% would be a bit, lets say ³ber
considering you can tank this further with armor wards
with such things you have to take care, people sense such abusing things very fast,
i agree that maybe something should be changed with maller, but giving it another turretslots is not good, you should consider that the amarr battlecruiser will be out soonÖ
so you shouldnt increase the turretpart furthermore,
well the biggest prooblem is that the smaller as pure gunneryship with tankings fullfills a role where the ammar BS are just better
not as most of the other cruisers wich have other dedicated roles (well moa not really, it also sucks compared to BS) Wanna fly with me?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.08.25 00:49:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Calyn
Originally by: Nafri maller = medium offence, very good defence imho
That defens is actually not up to par. Yes, it's defense is better than others, but only slightly so. Not enough to justify their poor offense. To leave it as it is the Mallers armour resist bonus should be raised to somewhere between 7.5% and 10% per cruiser level. Coupled with 100MW more to fix that critical grid shortage.
In that case, that 6th turret could be left out as the Maller would be a tank, soaking damage.
10% would be a bit, lets say ³ber
considering you can tank this further with armor wards
with such things you have to take care, people sense such abusing things very fast,
i agree that maybe something should be changed with maller, but giving it another turretslots is not good, you should consider that the amarr battlecruiser will be out soonÖ
so you shouldnt increase the turretpart furthermore,
well the biggest prooblem is that the smaller as pure gunneryship with tankings fullfills a role where the ammar BS are just better
not as most of the other cruisers wich have other dedicated roles (well moa not really, it also sucks compared to BS) Wanna fly with me?
|

Calyn
|
Posted - 2004.08.25 01:08:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Nafri 10% would be a bit, lets say ³ber
considering you can tank this further with armor wards
with such things you have to take care, people sense such abusing things very fast,
i agree that maybe something should be changed with maller, but giving it another turretslots is not good, you should consider that the amarr battlecruiser will be out soonÖ
so you shouldnt increase the turretpart furthermore,
well the biggest prooblem is that the smaller as pure gunneryship with tankings fullfills a role where the ammar BS are just better
not as most of the other cruisers wich have other dedicated roles (well moa not really, it also sucks compared to BS)
That's why I suggested to start with 7.5%. The bonus is penalized, even if you have no armour mods fitted anyway, so it's not that big. _________________________________________________ War transcends all barriers of species, race, religion, and civilization. |

Calyn
|
Posted - 2004.08.25 01:08:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Nafri 10% would be a bit, lets say ³ber
considering you can tank this further with armor wards
with such things you have to take care, people sense such abusing things very fast,
i agree that maybe something should be changed with maller, but giving it another turretslots is not good, you should consider that the amarr battlecruiser will be out soonÖ
so you shouldnt increase the turretpart furthermore,
well the biggest prooblem is that the smaller as pure gunneryship with tankings fullfills a role where the ammar BS are just better
not as most of the other cruisers wich have other dedicated roles (well moa not really, it also sucks compared to BS)
That's why I suggested to start with 7.5%. The bonus is penalized, even if you have no armour mods fitted anyway, so it's not that big. _________________________________________________ War transcends all barriers of species, race, religion, and civilization. |

ActiveX
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Posted - 2004.08.25 01:40:00 -
[135]
I have done some more research on the Tier 3 Cruisers.
To fit the heaviest weapons:
1. Maller needs 1250 Grid (5 Heavy Beams) 2. Thorax needs 1125 Grid (5 250mm Rails or Heavy Neutron Blasters) 3. Rupture needs 1120 Grid (4 720mm Howies and 2 Heavy Launchers) 4. Moa needs 1020 Grid (4 250mm Rails or Heavy Neutron Blasters and 2 Heavy Launchers)
Now for need:
1. Thorax has 700 and needs 425 2. Maller has 850 and needs 400 3. Rupture has 725 and needs 395 4. Moa has 750 and needs 270
And now for Grid need at Engineering Level 5:
1. Thorax has 875 and needs 250 2. Rupture has 906.25 and needs 213.75 3. Maller has 1062.5 and needs 187.5 4. Moa has 937.5 and needs 82.5
At Engineering 5, this is how many RCUs are needed to compensate:
1. Thorax needs 3 2. Rupture needs 3 3. Maller needs 2 4. Moa needs 1
Maller goes from second neediest to third neediest Tier 3 Cruiser to fit heaviest weapons. That doesn't sound so bad. ____________ Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000 
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ActiveX
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Posted - 2004.08.25 01:40:00 -
[136]
I have done some more research on the Tier 3 Cruisers.
To fit the heaviest weapons:
1. Maller needs 1250 Grid (5 Heavy Beams) 2. Thorax needs 1125 Grid (5 250mm Rails or Heavy Neutron Blasters) 3. Rupture needs 1120 Grid (4 720mm Howies and 2 Heavy Launchers) 4. Moa needs 1020 Grid (4 250mm Rails or Heavy Neutron Blasters and 2 Heavy Launchers)
Now for need:
1. Thorax has 700 and needs 425 2. Maller has 850 and needs 400 3. Rupture has 725 and needs 395 4. Moa has 750 and needs 270
And now for Grid need at Engineering Level 5:
1. Thorax has 875 and needs 250 2. Rupture has 906.25 and needs 213.75 3. Maller has 1062.5 and needs 187.5 4. Moa has 937.5 and needs 82.5
At Engineering 5, this is how many RCUs are needed to compensate:
1. Thorax needs 3 2. Rupture needs 3 3. Maller needs 2 4. Moa needs 1
Maller goes from second neediest to third neediest Tier 3 Cruiser to fit heaviest weapons. That doesn't sound so bad. ____________ Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000 
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Koris
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Posted - 2004.08.25 03:12:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Koris on 25/08/2004 03:27:59
Originally by: Calyn The problem is that the Maller cannot fit more half of what it should fit without wasting half the low slot for support systems such as RCU/PDU's. And this is with Engineering 5. Nafri, get your facts straight before posting. As you don't fly it, don't post about it.
Nafri is right you guys are wrong from what I see, what your stating is no different from a thorax. And I think active X nails it in the bag with his last post.
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Koris
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Posted - 2004.08.25 03:12:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Koris on 25/08/2004 03:27:59
Originally by: Calyn The problem is that the Maller cannot fit more half of what it should fit without wasting half the low slot for support systems such as RCU/PDU's. And this is with Engineering 5. Nafri, get your facts straight before posting. As you don't fly it, don't post about it.
Nafri is right you guys are wrong from what I see, what your stating is no different from a thorax. And I think active X nails it in the bag with his last post.
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Cruz
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Posted - 2004.08.25 03:25:00 -
[139]
Originally by: ActiveX
Maller goes from second neediest to third neediest Tier 3 Cruiser to fit heaviest weapons. That doesn't sound so bad.
Thorax also has that nice 2000m3 drone bay to compensate for its low Powergrid, because of that, all you really need to mount are ion or electron blasters. they only do about 7% or so less damage over time then Nuetron Blasters.
Its not the same though with focused pulse vs heavy pulse. ................. |

Cruz
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Posted - 2004.08.25 03:25:00 -
[140]
Originally by: ActiveX
Maller goes from second neediest to third neediest Tier 3 Cruiser to fit heaviest weapons. That doesn't sound so bad.
Thorax also has that nice 2000m3 drone bay to compensate for its low Powergrid, because of that, all you really need to mount are ion or electron blasters. they only do about 7% or so less damage over time then Nuetron Blasters.
Its not the same though with focused pulse vs heavy pulse. ................. |

ActiveX
|
Posted - 2004.08.25 03:45:00 -
[141]
My experience with Hybrids is minimal, care to get numbers?
I could parse together RoF equations and Dmg, but I dont see how that is relevant. If we based anything on that, the Rupture would be the big loser right now simply because Projectiles are on the Axis of Evil atm.
Weapons are certainly a consideration, but the lack of any ammo need negates the slightly less dmg lasers do.
Maybe what you really want is to drop the Amarr cap use bonuses for dmg and/or RoF bonuses. Am I wrong? ____________ Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000 
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ActiveX
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Posted - 2004.08.25 03:45:00 -
[142]
My experience with Hybrids is minimal, care to get numbers?
I could parse together RoF equations and Dmg, but I dont see how that is relevant. If we based anything on that, the Rupture would be the big loser right now simply because Projectiles are on the Axis of Evil atm.
Weapons are certainly a consideration, but the lack of any ammo need negates the slightly less dmg lasers do.
Maybe what you really want is to drop the Amarr cap use bonuses for dmg and/or RoF bonuses. Am I wrong? ____________ Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000 
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Riddari
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Posted - 2004.08.25 08:27:00 -
[143]
I think he was making the point that a Thorax can launch a swarm of heavy/medium drones in ADDITION to it's turrets.
The other cruisers can also launch drones but the maller can't, so it's minus quite a bit offense there in the calculations.
¼©¼ a history |

Riddari
|
Posted - 2004.08.25 08:27:00 -
[144]
I think he was making the point that a Thorax can launch a swarm of heavy/medium drones in ADDITION to it's turrets.
The other cruisers can also launch drones but the maller can't, so it's minus quite a bit offense there in the calculations.
¼©¼ a history |

Riddari
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Posted - 2004.08.25 08:28:00 -
[145]
Originally by: ActiveX To me the utility slots are the mid slots. Every cruiser has at least 3.
Augoror has 2 mid slots.
And yes, the cruisers are all mixed left and right.
¼©¼ a history |

Riddari
|
Posted - 2004.08.25 08:28:00 -
[146]
Originally by: ActiveX To me the utility slots are the mid slots. Every cruiser has at least 3.
Augoror has 2 mid slots.
And yes, the cruisers are all mixed left and right.
¼©¼ a history |

Calyn
|
Posted - 2004.08.25 09:26:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Calyn on 25/08/2004 09:28:24
Originally by: Riddari I think he was making the point that a Thorax can launch a swarm of heavy/medium drones in ADDITION to it's turrets.
The other cruisers can also launch drones but the maller can't, so it's minus quite a bit offense there in the calculations.
That is exactly the point. The Maller is lacking in offense compared to other cruisers due to 0 drone bay. That is why the Maller needs that 6th hislot fit a turret. Even so, 8 heavy drones do a lot more dmaage than a single laser can ever hop to do, but it's a start. _________________________________________________ War transcends all barriers of species, race, religion, and civilization. |

Calyn
|
Posted - 2004.08.25 09:26:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Calyn on 25/08/2004 09:28:24
Originally by: Riddari I think he was making the point that a Thorax can launch a swarm of heavy/medium drones in ADDITION to it's turrets.
The other cruisers can also launch drones but the maller can't, so it's minus quite a bit offense there in the calculations.
That is exactly the point. The Maller is lacking in offense compared to other cruisers due to 0 drone bay. That is why the Maller needs that 6th hislot fit a turret. Even so, 8 heavy drones do a lot more dmaage than a single laser can ever hop to do, but it's a start. _________________________________________________ War transcends all barriers of species, race, religion, and civilization. |

Arud
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Posted - 2004.08.25 09:39:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Cruz
Originally by: ActiveX
Maller goes from second neediest to third neediest Tier 3 Cruiser to fit heaviest weapons. That doesn't sound so bad.
Thorax also has that nice 2000m3 drone bay to compensate for its low Powergrid, because of that, all you really need to mount are ion or electron blasters. they only do about 7% or so less damage over time then Nuetron Blasters.
Its not the same though with focused pulse vs heavy pulse.
and ofcorse the little fact that defense for the maller costs much much more powergrid than for most of the other races
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Arud
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Posted - 2004.08.25 09:39:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Cruz
Originally by: ActiveX
Maller goes from second neediest to third neediest Tier 3 Cruiser to fit heaviest weapons. That doesn't sound so bad.
Thorax also has that nice 2000m3 drone bay to compensate for its low Powergrid, because of that, all you really need to mount are ion or electron blasters. they only do about 7% or so less damage over time then Nuetron Blasters.
Its not the same though with focused pulse vs heavy pulse.
and ofcorse the little fact that defense for the maller costs much much more powergrid than for most of the other races
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