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![Cyprus Black Cyprus Black](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1075621349/portrait?size=64)
Cyprus Black
Caldari Elitist Jerks Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.03 20:46:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Epegi Givo There has been huge arguments over Ninja salvaging, and I think we need to settle it.
Nope - there hasn't been an arguement. There has been a clear statement of intent from the game designers stating that "this is how it is supposed to work" and a bunch of whining from people who don't like it.
Creating a new post doesn't change it and it doesn't make this thread any different than the previous threads on this topic.
And - not supported.
/thread ______________ Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. |
![Malcanis Malcanis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/301445721/portrait?size=64)
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.03 21:50:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Epegi Givo There has been huge arguments over Ninja salvaging, and I think we need to settle it.
As it is now, when you salvage (Not loot, but salvage) someone else's wreck you do it without consequence, and there is little to nothing the victim can do.
Now as a fan of EVE's dark side, I even say this isn't right, it is plain outright stealing.
What I propose is that when you salvage someone's wreck, it gives you the same aggro timer countdown to the victim and his corp as if you were to steal their Cargo Container (The corp can shoot you for 15 minutes).
The main argument by the salvagers is that a wreck is space junk, and isn't worth anything.
Well, if it is junk why do you want it so badly? And what CONCORD may see as junk can be seen by the Pod Pilot as treasure. And If enough people sign a "petition" Then that junk will be defend able from thieves.
Sign below if you want salvaging to give people Cargo-Container style aggro.
Agreed. Currently, hi-sec missioning is way too safe. This change would bring dozens - if not hundreds - of eager pirates into hi-sec, each working full time to try and tempt missioners with juicy faction/officer fits into fighting. This would add some much needed risk to balance the high rewards, just as happens with miners. Meanwhile the large increase in ninja salvaging would drop the price of rigs so that they are more affordable to the average player. Double win!
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![Caffeine Junkie Caffeine Junkie](https://images.evetech.net/characters/879528412/portrait?size=64)
Caffeine Junkie
Atomic Battle Penguins
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Posted - 2009.04.03 22:49:00 -
[33]
Rigs would get much more expensive.
90% of PvPers couldn't care less about Salvage.
Not Supported.
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![Dorian Tats Dorian Tats](https://images.evetech.net/characters/879611307/portrait?size=64)
Dorian Tats
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Posted - 2009.04.03 23:55:00 -
[34]
Yup.
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Epegi Givo
Agreed. Currently, hi-sec missioning is way too safe. This change would bring dozens - if not hundreds - of eager pirates into hi-sec, each working full time to try and tempt missioners with juicy faction/officer fits into fighting. This would add some much needed risk to balance the high rewards, just as happens with miners. Meanwhile the large increase in ninja salvaging would drop the price of rigs so that they are more affordable to the average player. Double win!
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![Efrim Black Efrim Black](https://images.evetech.net/characters/701665732/portrait?size=64)
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.04.04 00:54:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Malcanis
Agreed. Currently, hi-sec missioning is way too safe.
Yeah - thats why it's called high-security space.
Originally by: Malcanis
This change would bring dozens - if not hundreds - of eager pirates into hi-sec, each working full time to try and tempt missioners with juicy faction/officer fits into fighting.
HIGH - SECURITY SPACE.
Seriously.
Originally by: Malcanis This would add some much needed risk to balance the high rewards
The rewards aren't as high as low-sec and 0.0... no balancing needed.
Originally by: Malcanis Meanwhile the large increase in ninja salvaging would drop the price of rigs so that they are more affordable to the average player. Double win!
Double FAIL. If ninja salvaging acquired aggro - that would put the SALVAGERS in danger as well. i.e. They would be LESS inclined to ninja salvage. What crack pipe have you been smoking??
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![Natasha Zenith Natasha Zenith](https://images.evetech.net/characters/804078869/portrait?size=64)
Natasha Zenith
Caldari Crushed Ambitions
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Posted - 2009.04.04 03:16:00 -
[36]
No.
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![Nitrocloud Nitrocloud](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1725442942/portrait?size=64)
Nitrocloud
Caldari Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
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Posted - 2009.04.04 03:55:00 -
[37]
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the game of salvaging is a game of chance? What loot lies in the holds of the wrecks is actually there, I don't think the same can be said about the not-yet salvaged materials from ravaged remains of one's enemies. If something doesn't certainly exist, how can you say that it has been stolen?
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![Angelos Angelos](https://images.evetech.net/characters/593376553/portrait?size=64)
Angelos
Gateway Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.04 19:11:00 -
[38]
This discussion can go round and round and round with the lot of you whiners, but anyone who understands EVE's game design has to admit that wrecks need to cause aggro if salvaged by someone other than who created the wreck. Both missioneers and carebear pirates don't want this, both sides. But that is how this game was designed. High sec is supposed to be secure allowing PvE players a place to enjoy the game without harassment. Low sec and nullsec is where the pirates are supposed to hide. Salvaging has bridged the gap allowing carebear pirates to harass players without consequence. THIS MUST STOP. This game was designed to allow for consequences so CCP saying this is intended is a contradiction!
We already have enough troubles with carebear pirates can trapping newbs in high sec space, do we really want to do everything we can to scare off new players? Obviously those of you that LIKE to make me people mad won't care, but quit being a bunch of richards and think about EVE, not your epeen.
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![Santiago Fahahrri Santiago Fahahrri](https://images.evetech.net/characters/984194034/portrait?size=64)
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.04.04 19:18:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 04/04/2009 19:18:33
Originally by: Angelos This discussion can go round and round and round with the lot of you whiners, but anyone who understands EVE's game design has to admit that wrecks need to cause aggro if salvaged by someone other than who created the wreck.
Everyone who understands Eve's game design except apparently the designers of Eve you mean? ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
![Angelos Angelos](https://images.evetech.net/characters/593376553/portrait?size=64)
Angelos
Gateway Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.04 19:21:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Everyone who understands Eve's game design except apparently the designers of Eve you mean?
Let's take a poll of ALL of the employees at CCP, shall we? Instead of the one dude sitting behind a desk that puts checkmarks in boxes.
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![eXeGee eXeGee](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1618106584/portrait?size=64)
eXeGee
UK1 Zero
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Posted - 2009.04.04 20:05:00 -
[41]
Dont like this idea. ______________________________
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![Female Miner Female Miner](https://images.evetech.net/characters/442565620/portrait?size=64)
Female Miner
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Posted - 2009.04.04 21:00:00 -
[42]
Is this about salvaging npc wrecks?
Or player wrecks?
cos if it's only about player wrecks, then that's a lot more interesting a proposal.
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![Santiago Fahahrri Santiago Fahahrri](https://images.evetech.net/characters/984194034/portrait?size=64)
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.04.04 21:28:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Angelos
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Everyone who understands Eve's game design except apparently the designers of Eve you mean?
Let's take a poll of ALL of the employees at CCP, shall we? Instead of the one dude sitting behind a desk that puts checkmarks in boxes.
It was a dark day in CCPs history - the day they left "Harrold" the box-checker dude in charge of the salvage design.
All of the employees of CCP wanted salvaging to work just like looting cans, but Harrold had other ideas. He secretly plotted in the dank celler of the CCP offices to thwart the grand design. And one day, he got his chance. While the rest of the staff took a lunch break, he acted. He checked The Box!
Oh how the other employees rued the day they decided to go out for pizza!
Though CCP has now instigated a rule that no more than half of the staff may leave for lunch at any one time, and despite several high-level developer meetings, the damage cannot be undone. The design team is at a total loss... no one can figure out how to uncheck the box. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
![Angelos Angelos](https://images.evetech.net/characters/593376553/portrait?size=64)
Angelos
Gateway Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.04 21:35:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Uninteresting stuff
Never had a real job, have you? People do disagree with corporate policy that is often decided by one or maybe a handful of people. I've already stated why this policy contradicts previous ideas presented by CCP in the form of EVE content. It's ok for them to be wrong.
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![Herschel Yamamoto Herschel Yamamoto](https://images.evetech.net/characters/306181937/portrait?size=64)
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.04.04 23:26:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Angelos
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Everyone who understands Eve's game design except apparently the designers of Eve you mean?
Let's take a poll of ALL of the employees at CCP, shall we? Instead of the one dude sitting behind a desk that puts checkmarks in boxes.
You might just be the single most pompous ass I've ever seen on the Eve forums - and that's not an easy feat. Plenty of people, myself included, have accused CCP of variously being lazy, not understanding how normal people play the game, or just generally screwing the pooch. I don't think I've ever seen any who insisted that they knew the game's design principles better than the people who actually designed the game before, though. It takes a special kind of ego to make claims like that. ----- Bloodmoney Incorporated is recruiting! |
![De'Veldrin De'Veldrin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/111238762/portrait?size=64)
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.04.05 02:02:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Angelos
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Everyone who understands Eve's game design except apparently the designers of Eve you mean?
Let's take a poll of ALL of the employees at CCP, shall we? Instead of the one dude sitting behind a desk that puts checkmarks in boxes.
You might just be the single most pompous ass I've ever seen on the Eve forums - and that's not an easy feat. Plenty of people, myself included, have accused CCP of variously being lazy, not understanding how normal people play the game, or just generally screwing the pooch. I don't think I've ever seen any who insisted that they knew the game's design principles better than the people who actually designed the game before, though. It takes a special kind of a$$hat to make claims like that.
Your post was broken. I fixed it. --Vel
Originally by: Tachyon Shade Idealism is what precedes experience. Cynicism is what follows it.
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![Herschel Yamamoto Herschel Yamamoto](https://images.evetech.net/characters/306181937/portrait?size=64)
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.04.05 02:46:00 -
[47]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto You might just be the single most pompous ass I've ever seen on the Eve forums - and that's not an easy feat. Plenty of people, myself included, have accused CCP of variously being lazy, not understanding how normal people play the game, or just generally screwing the pooch. I don't think I've ever seen any who insisted that they knew the game's design principles better than the people who actually designed the game before, though. It takes a special kind of a$$hat to make claims like that.
Your post was broken. I fixed it.
Nah, if I was going to start swearing at him, I'd do it right. I try to avoid doing that in cases where I'm looking to win arguments though - it's fun, but not very effective. ----- Bloodmoney Incorporated is recruiting! |
![De'Veldrin De'Veldrin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/111238762/portrait?size=64)
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.04.05 03:22:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Nah, if I was going to start swearing at him, I'd do it right. I try to avoid doing that in cases where I'm looking to win arguments though - it's fun, but not very effective.
That's ok, Herschel. I'll let you win the argument. I'm just the cheerleader. ![Twisted Evil](/images/icon_twisted.gif) --Vel
Originally by: Tachyon Shade Idealism is what precedes experience. Cynicism is what follows it.
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![Malcanis Malcanis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/301445721/portrait?size=64)
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.05 09:39:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Malcanis on 05/04/2009 09:41:41
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Malcanis
Agreed. Currently, hi-sec missioning is way too safe.
Yeah - thats why it's called high-security space.
Originally by: Malcanis
This change would bring dozens - if not hundreds - of eager pirates into hi-sec, each working full time to try and tempt missioners with juicy faction/officer fits into fighting.
HIGH - SECURITY SPACE.
Seriously.
Originally by: Malcanis This would add some much needed risk to balance the high rewards
The rewards aren't as high as low-sec and 0.0... no balancing needed.
Originally by: Malcanis Meanwhile the large increase in ninja salvaging would drop the price of rigs so that they are more affordable to the average player. Double win!
Double FAIL. If ninja salvaging acquired aggro - that would put the SALVAGERS in danger as well. i.e. They would be LESS inclined to ninja salvage. What crack pipe have you been smoking??
Quoting someone who has no idea of The law Of Unintended Consequences. Or sarcasm, come to that.![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
Ask any hi-sec hulk miner if he thinks can theft aggro has
(1) increased (2) decreased
the number of people flipping cans in hi-sec.
People mostly flip cans not for the laughable amount of veldspar that can carry off in a frigate but in the hope that the miner is dumb enough to attack the now blinky-red flipper and consequently lose his hulk.
Exactly the same thing will happen if you introduce salvage theft. Instead of getting low-skilled noobs salvaging your wreck to try and make more ISK than they can get doing level 2s, you'll get experienced and malicious gankers salvaging your wrecks to try and get your X-type shield mods.
Anyway it's a moot point because multiple devs have very clearly said that salvage is owned by the guy who creates it from the wreck, not by the guy who creates the wreck.
PS "Hi sec" is safer, not absolutely safe. I mean, if it was as safe as all that, there wouldn't be all those mission pirate BS for you to shoot at, now would there?
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![Malcanis Malcanis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/301445721/portrait?size=64)
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.05 09:43:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Angelos But that is how this game was designed. High sec is supposed to be secure allowing PvE players a place to enjoy the game without harassment.
~citation needed
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![Efrim Black Efrim Black](https://images.evetech.net/characters/701665732/portrait?size=64)
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.04.05 17:33:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Angelos But that is how this game was designed. High sec is supposed to be secure allowing PvE players a place to enjoy the game without harassment.
~citation needed
"The high security areas are a safe place to start, until you are ready to venture into the more aggressive areas of the game. "
- From Official EVE Helpsite.
Also, your little side-ways rant about can-flipping doesn't prove any point at all since salvage isn't stealing. Something you tagged onto the end of your soap-box speech.
"Anyway it's a moot point because multiple devs have very clearly said that salvage is owned by the guy who creates it from the wreck, not by the guy who creates the wreck."
Exactly, it's not a "controversial topic" it's something that CCP acknowledged with the introduction of Salvaging.
Point is moot.
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![Malcanis Malcanis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/301445721/portrait?size=64)
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.05 18:45:00 -
[52]
Well whatever. Since the OP isn't going to get what he wants it hardly matters.
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![JordanParey JordanParey](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1448021079/portrait?size=64)
JordanParey
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.04.06 11:04:00 -
[53]
Sweet Jesus, the umpteen millionth thread on this. If you use the search function, you'd see that making another freaking thread about this isn't going to help.
Please stop cluttering Assembly Hally/ JPSC forums with these.
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![Gacin Gacin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1959630764/portrait?size=64)
Gacin
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Posted - 2009.04.07 03:33:00 -
[54]
Just my two cents on the matter; If you think about it, the opportunity for hi-sec pirates and griefers to go after mission runners is already there, they just need to steal from the mission wrecks like they steal from the miners and wait for the desired response. As for the impact of salvage aggro on the market, since the salvage is sold at the end anyway, the only difference is who gets paid for it, either way the some kind of salvage is going to be sold. Most guys doing this are smart enough to not pick a fight if there's several ships in a mission, they aren't going to risk losing a ship over some contaminated nantite. A more balanced idea would be making it more difficult to track ships in deadspace zones. To me there is a difference between salvaging a wreck in open space (Near a gate, asteroid belt, or station) and scanning down a guy to rob him in the middle of a mission.
Thank you.
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