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Irn Bruce	Posted - 2009.04.08 17:39:00 - [31] Yea, I agree about the Brutix. The only advantage the Deimos seems to have over it is speed and agility. Admittedly, this can be a big advantage, but it's not enough to justify the cost, especially since speed and agility are pretty useless when you have to stay within 5km or so of your target to actually do any damage. The only advantage that gives the Deimos is the ability to run away before a fight starts, and lets it get into range slightly quicker. It is, at its heart, a ship that gets in close and shoots thing until one of them dies. To win such a fight, it needs to last long enough to do the required damage. At the minute it can't do that against targets worthy of risking a ship that costs so much. 2 ways to give it that ability are to make it more surviveable, or to jump it right up to the top of the DPS pile. While a load more DPS would be nice, it might be a little unbalanced. In PVP it's a glass cannon, but in PVE against serpentis, where it's T2 resists especially come into play, it's already a monster. A 1200 DPS cruiser that can tank multiple BSes in PvE would be a bit unfair on ratters/plexers from the other races. I really think the key is to make it more surviveable. As I said before, either aim it at killing battleships, with an AB bonus, which won't really give it any more effectiveness than it currently has against smaller targets, or make it more surviveable all round with a tanking bonus. At the minute the MWD bonus is just allowing it to more easily get to the place of its death.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.04.08 19:48:00 - [32] Originally by: Letifer Deus Reducing buffer tank effectiveness (across the board) is not a popular complaint (nor do I agree it is a "problem") and I highly doubt CCP will be making any changes there any time soon. Also, this would force the Deimos to go active tank, which it currently sucks at (and then WOULD need changes similar to those proposed a year ago), so nerfing buffer tanking and otherwise leaving Deimos as is (as you suggest) would be a net loss for the Deimos. You're wrong. But due to your arrogance and blindly promoting your own idea I won't bother you with going into details as to why. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
Letifer Deus 181st Legion	Posted - 2009.04.08 19:54:00 - [33] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 08/04/2009 19:54:01 Originally by: McEivalley +1 to this. It's a more reasonable trade off than the AB vs MWD bonus. As I stated above (and Gypsio states below, but from a different angle), it would fail miserably at this role and it is NOT what people want from the Deimos. active tanking Deimos has already been proposed once by CCP and it was seriously opposed. I don't see anything being any different if CCP were to try it again. Quote: It would also keep it in a Heavy Assault Cruiser role rather than a big Assault frigate role. "Sharing more in common with smaller vessels than with its size-class counterparts..." That is directly lifted from the Deimos' description. It is supposed to be more of a "big" AF rather than another traditional HAC. Originally by: Gypsio III You won't solve the Deimos simply by fiddling with it bonuses. The problem is that it has no role and is generally outclassed by the Brutix. This is why tanking bonuses, etc. won't work. It is also part of the reason I proposed the AB bonus. The Deimos has higher speed, significantly higher agility and significantly lower sig radius. This is where it can be made to be more than just a smaller, vastly more expensive brutix. Quote: Giving it an AB bonus would increase the time taken to get to blaster optimal Yes, it will have a significantly lower top speed than a MWD Deimos, however, I will bet the damage taken on approach will be similar, if not less (especially against missile boats) due to the much higher velocity : sig radius ratio. also, while we are comparing it to the brutix, it will STILL be faster and have far greater acceleration than a MWD Brutix. Quote: and probably screw up its own tracking as well... tracking a BS or BC (and probably not much if at all on cruiser class) that is webbed and scrambled while in orbit should not be an issue. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus 181st Legion	Posted - 2009.04.08 20:34:00 - [34] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 08/04/2009 20:34:36 Originally by: el caido This is all true, but it is worth mentioning that the Ishtar is essentially a class of its own. Comparing any HAC to its diversity and damage potential at all ranges is not really fair Quote: The Brutix is a nearly identical boat that is only a quarter the cost. There are many previously-proposed ideas for the Deimos to add value such as extra tank, extra gank, extra speed, extra range, but the overlap is inevitable. which is why I tried to come up with something different. Quote: Or, if we're going to have a glass cannon, let's make it a glass cannon - give it a significantly (insanely) higher damage bonus so even if/when it dies quickly, it will have inflicted significant damage to merit the cost. The problem I see with this is even if you gave it INSANE damage bonuses, say drop the mwd cap capacity bonus for a 5% per lvl bonus to hybrid RoF, you would still not even break 1000 dps (993 approx.), whereas a gank megathron does ~1250 dps, is cheaper (factoring insurance), is harder to cap out, can easily fit eccm and has over 2x the EHP. This is what people will see. This is a similar complaint of the ishtar in comparison to the domi and compared to the Domi (as opposed to comparing it to other HACs) the ishtar IS a niche ship. However, it is GOOD at performing in this niche and that, combined with it's relative diversity in performance when compared to other HACs, is why it has been so successful. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
el caido School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.04.08 21:00:00 - [35] Irn and Letifer, you both make excellent points. Let's just call it a day and give it 20k hull HPs and a hull repper bonus. The Deimos is a conundrum.
Letifer Deus 181st Legion	Posted - 2009.04.08 21:59:00 - [36] Originally by: el caido Irn and Letifer, you both make excellent points. Let's just call it a day and give it 20k hull HPs and a hull repper bonus. Real men DO hull tank! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Shate Def The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2009.04.08 22:52:00 - [37] you are probably flying the ship wrong. it's not meant to be flown solo without logistics support. as a blaster boat it needs to get into range as fast as possible, so one will alway want to fit an mwd to it. the bonus is fine with me. the problem it suffers applies to all blasterships. they get primaried cause of the massive dps they deal upclose and btw any hac will die die fast when primaried cause they not got alot hp. it's not really a problem of the deimos you are facing but rather blaster playstyle in my opinion.
oniplE Point of No Return	Posted - 2009.04.08 23:10:00 - [38] Originally by: Shate Def you are probably flying the ship wrong. it's not meant to be flown solo without logistics support. as a blaster boat it needs to get into range as fast as possible, so one will alway want to fit an mwd to it. the bonus is fine with me. the problem it suffers applies to all blasterships. they get primaried cause of the massive dps they deal upclose and btw any hac will die die fast when primaried cause they not got alot hp. it's not really a problem of the deimos you are facing but rather blaster playstyle in my opinion. I wouldnt say its the blaster playstyle, its the blasters. They're just underpowered when compared to lasers. If you compare the zealot lasers versus the deimos neutrons, you'll see the lasers do 91.5% of the damage of the neutrons, while having a much greater range with damage ammo. AND having the ability to switch to REAL long range ammo. Unlike Null, which gives you an extra.. 6km on a deimos? Scorch gives an extra 23 km, while maintaining the 91.5% damage level of Null neutrons. Sigh.. The only reason to fly a deimos over a zealot is because you (for some reason) trained Gallente cruiser 5 instead of Amarr cruiser 5. x
Letifer Deus 181st Legion	Posted - 2009.04.09 00:42:00 - [39] *Testing Results:** large ions (with 37.5% bonus tracking): 0% hit rate medium ions: 20% hit rate medium ions w/ web: 35% hit rate ogre 2s: 80% hit rate (I was rather disappointed here) *all of these (approximate) results were done with a stationary ship shooting at a vaga set to orbit at 500m and setup to have 165 sig radius (effectively the same as Deimos) and just under 1000 m/s top speed with T2 AB (approx. what bonused Deimos would do at lvl 5 HAC). Unfortunately, the guy I had flying the vaga couldn't overload, which would have (I believe) had a significant effect on the medium ion hit rates with and without webs. Not sure how much of an effect it would have had on the ogre 2 hit rate. The AB vaga was effectively invulnerable to BS class turret damage once in orbit (as expected). Hit rate with medium turrets was happily lower than expected and still showed very significant hit rate reduction with the web. Ogre 2 damage reduction was quite disappointing however there is a certain possibility that the extra speed (overloading with the bonused AB would bring top speeds up approx 40%, however I don't know how much less of an increase would be seen in a tight orbit) could do enough to bring the 80% hit rate down significantly. Missile damage reduction was not tested but expect it to also show very significant reductions with both BS and cruiser sized missiles. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Shate Def The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2009.04.09 05:46:00 - [40] Originally by: oniplE I wouldnt say its the blaster playstyle, its the blasters. They're just underpowered when compared to lasers. If you compare the zealot lasers versus the deimos neutrons, you'll see the lasers do 91.5% of the damage of the neutrons, while having a much greater range with damage ammo. AND having the ability to switch to REAL long range ammo. Unlike Null, which gives you an extra.. 6km on a deimos? Scorch gives an extra 23 km, while maintaining the 91.5% damage level of Null neutrons. Sigh.. The only reason to fly a deimos over a zealot is because you (for some reason) trained Gallente cruiser 5 instead of Amarr cruiser 5. yes but don't forget that the zealot only has one weapon system, the lasers. the deimos's main weaponsystem, it's blasters, already outdps the zealot. count in it's drones and you have more versatility (web/ecm/neut drones) or way more dps. to compensate that the zealot got more range. i think lasers fit more into the current speedbuffed (some might say nerfed) engagements.
Triiniity Point of No Return Blade.	Posted - 2009.04.09 11:19:00 - [41] You keep coming back to the point about making the Deimos more survivable. You can't give it an armor rep bonus because this would be too Sacrilege like. You can't make it more agile because this will make it more Vaga like. So you need to come up with something that that makes the Deimos more suvivable but keeps in place with the Gallente way of doing things Your AB idea is nice; and I'd be quite happy to see that change; this would make it an amazing PvE ship as well as solve a few of the PvP issues I gave this some thought; and in keeping with the Gallente way of doing things started to think about its drones. What about giving it a 75m3 drone bay instead of 50m3 and giving it a bonus to ECM drone power? This way it could carry a set of medium ecm drones and also a set of light ecm drones and it would have an ECM tank to help it out I think my point here is; its a gallente ship; gallente do stuff with drones - maybe give the drones some thought... pair this with the AB bonus you are talking about and its getting pretty impressive
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.09 11:35:00 - [42] No ECM bonus. That is Caldari stuff. More drone bay? ... Would this not steal a bit of the Ishtar itself? Sounds nice, though. If the MWD bonus is so unloved then it could get dropped all together, and instead give the Deimos a 10% medium turret damage over the current 5%. That is a straight +5% more win. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Triiniity Point of No Return Blade.	Posted - 2009.04.09 11:47:00 - [43] Well, we can't boost its web's cos that matari stuff we can't boost its neuts cos thats amarr stuff we can't boost its agility cos that matari stuff we can't give it ECM or TD cos these are caldari/amarr things so the only thing we can really do is it mess about with its drones; seeing as this is the gallente niche or come up with something completely unique.. such as the AB bonus idea Bonus to ECM drones; albeit slightly caldari-ish at least keeps in-line with the Gallente's love of all things drone They could always allow us to control 10 drones with that 75m3 and we can use ECM drones against a frig and a cruiser at the same time :P or hammer's and warriors at the same time :P ofc this will never happen but it sounds fun at least
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.09 12:02:00 - [44] Edited by: Whitehound on 09/04/2009 12:04:34 A bonus to Surgical Strike or Sharpshooter? -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Triiniity Point of No Return Blade.	Posted - 2009.04.09 12:52:00 - [45] Think it needs something a bit cleverer than just a bit more damage or a bit more range to make it have a role or make people want to use it; even as a sniper HAC with T2 rails its range sucks; adding 25% to that range wouldn't even help it get to the range of the other sniper HAC's let alone do their damage/alpha +1 drone control and +10m3 (or 5m3?) drone space per level of HAC.. that would be interesting; you could get to a stage where you have 5 ECM drones out (increasing your survivability) and 5 damage drones out helping you hit "at range" having ECM drones means your target loses their scram on you which effectively does two things: It allows you to use your MWD to get into range or speed tank and also allows you to GTFO + the obvious advantage of receiving less damage I still like the AB idea btw!
Angus Torg Galactic Shipyards Inc	Posted - 2009.04.09 13:39:00 - [46] The Deimos can already field 5 medium ECM drones. No need for more drone dps from that side (we don't need another Ishtar). So, after more time to let this settle, the AB bonus looks nice. Or the 10% armor per level... Can we get EVE back? Please.
Letifer Deus 181st Legion	Posted - 2009.04.09 13:52:00 - [47] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 09/04/2009 13:52:26 Good to see people are still discussing. =) Off to work now so can't write anything up, but I am hoping to do a little more testing today with the AB vaga stand in. Simulating overloading (actually overloading the vaga wouldn't reach the correct speed) and testing against torp/cruise and heavy/HAM. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.09 14:53:00 - [48] Edited by: Whitehound on 09/04/2009 14:56:28 Originally by: Angus Torg So, after more time to let this settle, the AB bonus looks nice. Or the 10% armor per level... A +10% armour bonus on a ship with 6 low-slots is a bad idea, seriously. It becomes a battle cruiser. I also cannot get my head around the AB-bonus as this is not a fix, but only a work-around for the MWD bonus. And it kills variety: ABs become mandatory, MWDs become junk. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Letifer Deus 181st Legion	Posted - 2009.04.09 19:55:00 - [49] Originally by: Whitehound And it kills variety: ABs become mandatory, MWDs become junk. AB wouldn't really be any more or less mandatory than MWDs are now. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.09 20:28:00 - [50] Originally by: Letifer Deus AB wouldn't really be any more or less mandatory than MWDs are now. No. MWDs are currently not mandatory when one can install an AB and for saving cap. High speed is not always needed, i.e. when you have interceptors or other fast frigates in your fleet. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Letifer Deus 181st Legion	Posted - 2009.04.10 01:28:00 - [51] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 10/04/2009 01:44:40 Originally by: Whitehound No. MWDs are currently not mandatory when one can install an AB and for saving cap. and AB will certainly not be "mandatory" afterwards if you want the extra speed. In either case you are going with one way 90% of the time and the other way the rest of the time. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus 181st Legion	Posted - 2009.04.10 22:19:00 - [52] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 10/04/2009 22:20:18 today at work I made BBQ chicken sandwiches, played Wii bowling and watched Slumdog Millionaire. Seriously though, CCP please try something with the Deimos. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
mystiq pwnzorg	Posted - 2009.04.11 14:44:00 - [53] What about giving deimos one more med slot, and role bonuse- 10% to web streangth. and what about giving it a 6th gun? that would be fair i think.
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.04.11 14:55:00 - [54] Originally by: mystiq pwnzorg What about giving deimos one more med slot, and role bonuse- 10% to web streangth. and what about giving it a 6th gun? that would be fair i think. I'd like that, it would make my Deimos better, but OP your suggestion, no offence, but it really is bad. Afterburners are just, ugh.
ZENZATION MeMento.	Posted - 2009.04.11 16:04:00 - [55] Originally by: mystiq pwnzorg What about giving deimos one more med slot, and role bonuse- 10% to web streangth. and what about giving it a 6th gun? that would be fair i think. You cant just give it a med slot, you will have to trade in either a high or a low. Besides, an extra med slot isnt going to help the deimos a lot. It wont get a role bonus, it will have to trade in a bonus and i guess that would be the fall off bonus. This will probably lower your effective dps cuz of the shorter range on your guns. And then again, what is it going to do with the web bonus? Its still going to die.. Imo the AB bonus is the best idea in the thread, it will keep its role and it will give it some extra survivability. But, 20% probably wont cut it, prolly needs something like 50%. Sounds like a lot but it STILL wouldnt be very fast, just as fast as before actually. Change the fall off bonus to tracking, and blasters will actually hit something when you orbit with the AB on.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.04.11 16:43:00 - [56] The proposed AB bonus, although maybe adressing the issue, would be a horrible fake solution that would very likely bite die devs in their behind, as soon as they change some other game mechanics. The Deimos' problems are symptoms which originate from some suboptimal mix of combat game mechanics. Namely speed, range, damage and tank. Speed has just been altered. Damage in general is sufficient and should always be toyed with as a last resort. That leaves range and tank, which still provides plenty of tweaking options, without the need to implement a new unprecedented ship bonus, which would basically blur the boundaries of two fundamentally different propulsion modules. I don't like fake solutions, because they are like patches that come off after a while. Imho it's a lot better to move inside the given rules and game mechanics and keep the game design straightforward. Exceptions tend to make future balancing more complicated. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
McCreary075 Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2009.04.11 16:46:00 - [57] I 100% support this 20% boost per level to AB speed. The tracking bonus on your blasters should be enough to keep you dealing most of your damage, and you get 100 pg from losing the MWD. Also, you won't get completely destroyed just getting into range because you have epic sig radius, and everything can hit you.
Letifer Deus 181st Legion	Posted - 2009.04.11 16:56:00 - [58] Originally by: ZENZATION But, 20% probably wont cut it, prolly needs something like 50%. Sounds like a lot but it STILL wouldnt be very fast, just as fast as before actually. The problem with a bonus that high is that it doesn't keep it in it's intended niche as much as it should. At 20% the bonus is very powerful, but it is limited to some extent in its applications. 50% would basically be giving you a MWD with no sig rad penalty, 2x the overload time, 1/4 the cap usage, far lower fitting reqs. and invulnerability to scramblers. I think when it's worded like that it becomes clear that a bonus that brings AB speed up to MWD speed is probably OP. I could maybe see it up at 25% per level, but if anything like this ever happened, I would be enormously surprised if CCP went above 20%. Quote: Change the fall off bonus to tracking, and blasters will actually hit something when you orbit with the AB on. If the target is webbed and scrammed, hitting it isn't a big issue. And as the intended targets of this new Deimos would be BC and BS class, tracking should be even less of an issue. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Letifer Deus 181st Legion	Posted - 2009.04.11 17:14:00 - [59] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 11/04/2009 17:17:55 Originally by: Tarron Sarek That leaves range and tank, which still provides plenty of tweaking options, without the need to implement a new unprecedented ship bonus It is unprecedented only in the amount. In fact, even the amount was the same as what T3 had on SISI, but they prenerfed it at the last minute. Please, if you actually have an idea as to what other bonuses/tweaks could be applied, I am all ears. Oh, and I do not believe range actually is a viable option. For one it already has a 10% falloff bonus. another falloff (or an optimal) bonus is going to do nothing to fix the Deimos, it would just mean you could start hitting a few km earlier on your approach. Quote: which would basically blur the boundaries of two fundamentally different propulsion modules. There is still quite a distinct difference between going ~1000 m/s and going ~1400 m/s. Quote: I don't like fake solutions What exactly is more fake about an AB bonus than any other bonus? Is it fake because it is 20% and not 10%, 7.5% or 5%? The percentage of the bonus is irrelevant. All that matters is the effect it has on the ship's balance and performance in its intended role. Quote: Imho it's a lot better to move inside the given rules and game mechanics and keep the game design straightforward. How does a 20% AB bonus move "outside of the rules and game mechanics"? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
ZENZATION MeMento.	Posted - 2009.04.11 17:53:00 - [60] Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 11/04/2009 17:15:31 Originally by: ZENZATION But, 20% probably wont cut it, prolly needs something like 50%. Sounds like a lot but it STILL wouldnt be very fast, just as fast as before actually. The problem with a bonus that high is that it doesn't keep it in it's intended niche as much as it should. At 20% the bonus is very powerful, but it is limited to some extent in its applications. 50% would basically be giving you a MWD with no sig rad penalty, 2x the overload time, 1/4 the cap usage, far lower fitting reqs. and invulnerability to scramblers. I think when it's worded like that it becomes clear that a bonus that brings AB speed up to MWD speed is probably OP. I could maybe see it up at 25% per level, but if anything like this ever happened, I would be enormously surprised if CCP went above 20%. Quote: Change the fall off bonus to tracking, and blasters will actually hit something when you orbit with the AB on. If the target is webbed and scrammed, hitting it shouldn't be a big issue. And as the intended targets of this new Deimos would be BC and BS class, tracking should be even less of an issue. I see your point, but a 20% bonus wont provide enough speed to be viable. It will have a top speed of 977 m/s, that just isnt enough. 25% will make it 1054 m/s, still not enough.

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