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Dhuras
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
4
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Posted - 2012.05.04 04:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
Cunanium wrote:
Your point is invalid. There are many people who are more than capable of flying many many types of ships throughout all races, but yet the Tengu is a major FOTM for pvp. You don't see Loki blobs... you see Tengus. You don't see Prophecy blobs, you see Drake armies.
I can say i see fleets blobing wit loki's and proteuses, NOT tengus quite frequently
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Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
43
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Posted - 2012.05.04 05:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
LOL let's give tengus more than the 160km missile range they can already have |
Sunviking
The Shining Knights
46
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Posted - 2012.05.04 07:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:We are looking at our asses.
Let's recap. With the introduction of drone damage modules here is the state of things thus far.
Soon lasers, hybrids, projectiles AND drones will have both modules and rigs that modify all their stats. Range, damage and tracking will be altered by modules and rigs. They will also of course continue to receive the benefits of target painters. Recent changes to T2 ammo has removed all or most ship penalties from T2 turret ammo and drones never had such penalties so rejoice! I guess.
MEANWHILE:
Missiles have a damage module and benefit from "tracking" and range enhancements only in the form of rigs or target painters. Add to that the fact that T2 missiles are the only T2 ammo that retains its full ship penalties and things seem bleak at best for missile users. Need I add that CCP announced at fanfest their plans to allow tracking disruters to apply to missiles without any mention of a counter and it seems the writing is on the wall.
How about you do the followig CCP:
Remove missiles from the game other than torps (for stealth bombers only) and refund those skill points. You already took away any pirate ships worth training for missile users. Why not just deliver the killing blow? I mean we all know you plan to nerf Tengu to the ground and God knows you hate the Drake (just watch ANY alliance tournament and hear dev comments)
Either give us missile users some modules to choose from and remove those stupid T2 ship penalties or just kill the weapon already. Enough of this stepchild treatment already.
Given that they are introducing new Missile graphics, I would say that Missiles are hear to stay.
Your suggestion is stupid. If Missiles are removed, why not just remove the whole Caldari race as well? After all, the only reason a large number of players choose to have Cladari characters/alts is because of the perception that Missiles are supposedly good for PvE (which I disagree with, being Caldari myself).
I can understand your frustration at the neglected-child treatment or missiles, but you really should be arguing for Missiles to be rebalanced, not just moaning.
I started a Thread in General Discussion about Missile Rebalancing, of which everybody's support and/or comments would be appreciated. |
Bap1811
Club Bear
4
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Posted - 2012.05.04 11:25:00 -
[34] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. One day you will learn game mechanics.
Maybe. |
Zyress
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2012.05.04 14:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
Kalli Brixzat wrote:Zyress wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. Actually they already can and do miss frequently, My range with Light Missiles on my Kestrel is 40.2 KM I have maxed Missile skills, if I shoot at a frigate doing more than 400m/s much past 32KM away I usually will miss completely. Not really a "miss" per se. More like, shooting stuff that's further away than you can hit. In any event...OP: Quit your crying. Missiles are solid PvE weapon systems...especially given that you can do any damage-type and switch on the fly. Missile frigs can be ok (see Kestrel), but missiles just aren't that great for 1v1 or even small gang PvP.
So how is my missile running out of fuel while chasing a target inside my maximum range different from a turret ship missing a target because its tracking can't keep up? Lots of ships are fast enough to do it much further inside my range |
Haulie Berry
33
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Posted - 2012.05.04 15:15:00 -
[36] - Quote
Bap1811 wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. One day you will learn game mechanics. Maybe.
Relative velocity. As in, the velocity of the target with respect to the velocity of your ship. This is a concern for turret ships as your own velocity affects transversal as much as the other guy's. Missiles do not suffer from this. They do not care how fast you are going, they only care how fast the other guy is going. |
Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2012.05.04 15:18:00 -
[37] - Quote
There's nothing wrong with missiles. Half the population of Eve is flying a tengu or drake. |
Zyress
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2012.05.04 15:21:00 -
[38] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Bap1811 wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. One day you will learn game mechanics. Maybe. Relative velocity. As in, the velocity of the target with respect to the velocity of your ship. This is a concern for turret ships as your own velocity affects transversal as much as the other guy's. Missiles do not suffer from this. They do not care how fast you are going, they only care how fast the other guy is going. One day you will learn to read.
Relative Velocity or Angular velocity, a miss is still a miss |
Haulie Berry
34
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Posted - 2012.05.04 15:27:00 -
[39] - Quote
Zyress wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Bap1811 wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. One day you will learn game mechanics. Maybe. Relative velocity. As in, the velocity of the target with respect to the velocity of your ship. This is a concern for turret ships as your own velocity affects transversal as much as the other guy's. Missiles do not suffer from this. They do not care how fast you are going, they only care how fast the other guy is going. One day you will learn to read. Relative Velocity or Angular velocity, a miss is still a miss One day you will come up with something better than "One day" to preface your criticisms
One day you, will learn how to use punctuation.
And, yes, while it is technically possible to outrun oversized missiles in small, fast ships, this is a relatively fringe case, whereas getting under someone's guns is a completely normal and routine event.
In practice, it doesn't happen. If you're missing with missiles, it's because whatever you're shooting at is too far away, or you're doing something particularly stupid like lobbing torpedos at an interceptor. They really can't code around your particular brand of stupid, so that's okay. In actual practice, 99/100 times missiles can be reasonably said to not miss. This cannot be said of turrets. |
Ravenesa
The Bastards The Bastards.
33
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Posted - 2012.05.04 15:41:00 -
[40] - Quote
You see missiles more in small gang PvP compared to large scale PvP, though that is not always the case (Goon Drake/Male fleets) but there is some room for improvement.
1. I agree the T2 ship penalty removal should apply to missiles as well, it is only "fair"
2. Missle "Short Range" weapons take a completely opposite path compared to Blasters, Lasers, and AC's. When you switch to these weaposn you get improved tracking and damage, but at the cost of range. For Rockets, HAM's and Torps you get the range reduction and the better paper DPS, but the whole sig radious/explo velcioty damare reduction makes them worse, especially against smaller targets. Medium guns can hit small targets, HAM's hit for jack squat. |
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Zyress
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2012.05.04 15:56:00 -
[41] - Quote
Quote: Relative velocity. As in, the velocity of the target with respect to the velocity of your ship. This is a concern for turret ships as your own velocity affects transversal as much as the other guy's. Missiles do not suffer from this. They do not care how fast you are going, they only care how fast the other guy is going.
One day you will learn to read.
Relative Velocity or Angular velocity, a miss is still a miss One day you will come up with something better than "One day" to preface your criticisms[/quote]
One day you, will learn how to use punctuation.
And, yes, while it is technically possible to outrun oversized missiles in small, fast ships, this is a relatively fringe case, whereas getting under someone's guns is a completely normal and routine event.
In practice, it doesn't happen. If you're missing with missiles, it's because whatever you're shooting at is too far away, or you're doing something particularly stupid like lobbing torpedos at an interceptor. They really can't code around your particular brand of stupid, so that's okay. In actual practice, 99/100 times missiles can be reasonably said to not miss. This cannot be said of turrets.[/quote]
Haulie you silly ****... Maximum speed for a Standard Light Missile with maximum missile skills is 5250 m/s, slower if you don't have max skills. Most interceptors and some pirate frigates can outrun them from 0 - whatever. Your pig headedness is only exceeded by your malodorous phraseology. |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
37
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:02:00 -
[42] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Niko Takahashi wrote: How about we make that all your hits you ever do with a gun are going tour barely scratches or light hits with no modules to improve it?
If you have no clue shut up please.
news flash! that's exactly what happens when you attack an orbiting small target. except guns can also miss. i happen to agree that most missile types are a little on the weak side but at least use the right arguments when you argue not some random BS. Except with guns you can fly manually and lower your transversal, while with missiles you just get what you get. So to quote you..at least use the right arguments when you argue not some random BS. |
ROXGenghis
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
19
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Posted - 2012.05.04 16:08:00 -
[43] - Quote
This is a simple case of "the grass is greener" mindset.
When you can only use a limited number of ships or weapons, you psychologically magnify the shortcomings of your stuff and the advantages of other people's stuff.
Once you can fly everything, you can see the pros and cons of all the ships and weapons, and find yourself using a sampling of stuff from each race, depending on the type of PVP you're doing at the moment. Everything is useful: active and passive tanks, armor and shields, missiles and guns, long and short range. And you know what, you realize that Eve is actually really well balanced given it's variety.
More importantly, once you can fly everything, you thank God (or CCP) that such variety exists among the various races, ships, weapons, tank, ewar, etc. It gives you a reason to fly "the other guy's stuff." Making things homogenous would destroy long-term enjoyment of the game. Even CCP's constant buffer/nerf cycles have a useful effect here: they keep the game fresh. FOTM is a good thing, promoting innovation and preventing stagnation.
So keep PVPing, keep training, and enjoy the ride. |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
80
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Posted - 2012.05.04 21:10:00 -
[44] - Quote
Worm/Gila/Rattle arent't missile ships, they're shield tanking drone boats with missile support they trade dps for massive tank and damage type selection. The problem isn't missile mechanics, its that caldari hulls tend to suck. |
Kalli Brixzat
22
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Posted - 2012.05.04 22:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Worm/Gila/Rattle arent't missile ships, they're shield tanking drone boats with missile support they trade dps for massive tank and damage type selection. The problem isn't missile mechanics, its that caldari hulls tend to suck.
There's no Caldari (or Caldari-related pitate faction) ship that doesn't have it's place in the game. Short of the Bantam, even the frigs all have their clear uses - and they are generally effective at whatever that role is.
So...no...Caldari hulls don't suck. You just don't like them. See the difference, cupcake? |
BearJews
Android Arms And Industrial Corporation Tenth Legion
35
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Posted - 2012.05.04 22:57:00 -
[46] - Quote
Missile systems do suck and it's pretty obvious considering nobody likes them unless you're bobbing it up. The instant I could use turetts I haven't looked back for pvp. I think if they had more mods for missile boats we wouldn't see as much whining. It's a matter of how much love they give to turrets compared to missiles. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
85
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Posted - 2012.05.05 00:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
ROXGenghis wrote:This is a simple case of "the grass is greener" mindset.
When you can only use a limited number of ships or weapons, you psychologically magnify the shortcomings of your stuff and the advantages of other people's stuff.
Once you can fly everything, you can see the pros and cons of all the ships and weapons, and find yourself using a sampling of stuff from each race, depending on the type of PVP you're doing at the moment. Everything is useful: active and passive tanks, armor and shields, missiles and guns, long and short range. And you know what, you realize that Eve is actually really well balanced given it's variety.
More importantly, once you can fly everything, you thank God (or CCP) that such variety exists among the various races, ships, weapons, tank, ewar, etc. It gives you a reason to fly "the other guy's stuff." Making things homogenous would destroy long-term enjoyment of the game. Even CCP's constant buffer/nerf cycles have a useful effect here: they keep the game fresh. FOTM is a good thing, promoting innovation and preventing stagnation.
So keep PVPing, keep training, and enjoy the ride.
I fly all ships sub Capitol. Now what? Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
86
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Posted - 2012.05.05 01:59:00 -
[48] - Quote
Schalac wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Niko Takahashi wrote: How about we make that all your hits you ever do with a gun are going tour barely scratches or light hits with no modules to improve it?
If you have no clue shut up please.
news flash! that's exactly what happens when you attack an orbiting small target. except guns can also miss. i happen to agree that most missile types are a little on the weak side but at least use the right arguments when you argue not some random BS. Except with guns you can fly manually and lower your transversal, while with missiles you just get what you get. So to quote you..at least use the right arguments when you argue not some random BS. unless your opponent is not a ****** and flies manually too. also, falloff. |
Sid Hudgens
59
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Posted - 2012.05.05 02:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
I know...
Let's just make everything the same! Problem solved. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
This post has been brought to you by an NPC corp alt. |
Dhuras
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
7
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Posted - 2012.05.05 02:13:00 -
[50] - Quote
I'm not totally which side is right on this, but one thing to consider: turrets have 2 kinds (tracking computers and tracking enhancers) of modules plus rigs to increase tracking speed and range. Missiles have no such modules to increase their explosions velocity or radius or max velocity/flight time.
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serras bang
Lucien Coven
2
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Posted - 2012.05.05 02:34:00 -
[51] - Quote
what i do find funny is people are saying missiles are fine and the 2 best ships that cal have are over powerd really ?
cal aint got a ship that volleys at 14 k .
or many if any missiles boats that fire viably over 100 k |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
56
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Posted - 2012.05.05 03:39:00 -
[52] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Wow, that is a lot of butthurt.
Also first.
Yeah well when your caldari pilot has 8 mil out of 23 mil in missile launchers and they make them useless that tends to make my butt hurt too.
Why the hell DONT they give missiles a miss % an make only the "guided" ones always hit? I always see a lot of butthurt gun users that missiles always hit (hardly ever apply full damage to the target mind you but lest ignore that) I've commented repeatedly that behavior in game reveals a truth about a person in their real life as well. Never has that been demonstrated so successfully in the alliance panel this year at Fanfest. Issler-á ---- Your VOTED CSM |
ROXGenghis
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
19
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Posted - 2012.05.05 03:40:00 -
[53] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:ROXGenghis wrote:So keep PVPing, keep training, and enjoy the ride. I fly all ships sub Capitol. Now what? Maybe try PVP? Or post with your main?
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Dhuras
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
8
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Posted - 2012.05.05 03:51:00 -
[54] - Quote
ROXGenghis wrote:Patri Andari wrote:ROXGenghis wrote:So keep PVPing, keep training, and enjoy the ride. I fly all ships sub Capitol. Now what? Maybe try PVP? Or post with your main?
or you two ladies can talk about the actual issue and not ***** about anecdotes and who is posting on what character like two little children. |
ROXGenghis
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
19
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Posted - 2012.05.05 04:08:00 -
[55] - Quote
Dhuras wrote:ROXGenghis wrote:Patri Andari wrote:ROXGenghis wrote:So keep PVPing, keep training, and enjoy the ride. I fly all ships sub Capitol. Now what? Maybe try PVP? Or post with your main? or you two ladies can talk about the actual issue and not ***** about anecdotes and who is posting on what character like two little children.
Hey now, my first post was very well thought out and contributed something totally new to the conversation in this thread by looking at the big picture rather than getting lost in the minutiae. It was right on target about the original issue.
Patri's response was snide and I wondered why, so I looked him up and realized his OP was a troll from someone with no idea what they were talking about. So I just called him out on his troll.
If you think that brief exchange between us was worth ranting about, I'm surprised you can tolerate half the threads on these forums! :P |
Dhuras
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
8
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Posted - 2012.05.05 04:11:00 -
[56] - Quote
Heh, true that my friend. I try to only frequent these dark caves so often, now being one of those times.
Back on track, i think we can all agree that with the update that will cause tracking disruptors to affect missile damage missiles WILL need some sort of buff, be it modules to increase missile range/explosion velocity or a general damage buff. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
58
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Posted - 2012.05.05 04:35:00 -
[57] - Quote
ROXGenghis wrote:Patri Andari wrote:ROXGenghis wrote:So keep PVPing, keep training, and enjoy the ride. I fly all ships sub Capitol. Now what? Maybe try PVP? Or post with your main?
Youd have to talk to CCP about letting ME do that lol
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:Wow, that is a lot of butthurt.
Also first. Yeah well when your caldari pilot has 8 mil out of 23 mil in missile launchers and they make them useless that tends to make my butt hurt too. Why the hell DONT they give missiles a miss % an make only the "guided" ones always hit? I always see a lot of butthurt gun users that missiles always hit (hardly ever apply full damage to the target mind you but lest ignore that)
This tho... answer this lol
the second not as much as the first I've commented repeatedly that behavior in game reveals a truth about a person in their real life as well. Never has that been demonstrated so successfully in the alliance panel this year at Fanfest. Issler-á ---- Your VOTED CSM |
Sol Invectus
Sol Invectus Corporation
4
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Posted - 2012.05.05 09:37:00 -
[58] - Quote
Also no one mentioned but t2 missile prices are ridicilous; pricing between 700-1500 isk per missile. So each salvo costs like 5k-10k ISK. Lets say you kill a 1mil bounty NPC battleship in 10 salvo, it will cost you 100k ammo price, so permanent 10% reduction in your income if you use t2 missiles. Yes you kill them faster but then what is the point on using t2 missiles if you spend so much money on them?
I am not even mentioning silly t2 missile penalties to the ship. |
bubble trout
Terra Corporation
7
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Posted - 2012.05.05 17:48:00 -
[59] - Quote
Don't use it then? All T2 large ammo is fairly pricey. Use it only if it is worth it to you.
As for the penalties, those are kinda dumb. |
Gorki Andropov
Kerensky Initiatives
341
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Posted - 2012.05.05 17:57:00 -
[60] - Quote
Oh, do get over yourself, Princess Mono-wah-wah. |
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