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Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
84
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Posted - 2012.05.03 01:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
We are looking at our asses.
Let's recap. With the introduction of drone damage modules here is the state of things thus far.
Soon lasers, hybrids, projectiles AND drones will have both modules and rigs that modify all their stats. Range, damage and tracking will be altered by modules and rigs. They will also of course continue to receive the benefits of target painters. Recent changes to T2 ammo has removed all or most ship penalties from T2 turret ammo and drones never had such penalties so rejoice! I guess.
MEANWHILE:
Missiles have a damage module and benefit from "tracking" and range enhancements only in the form of rigs or target painters. Add to that the fact that T2 missiles are the only T2 ammo that retains its full ship penalties and things seem bleak at best for missile users. Need I add that CCP announced at fanfest their plans to allow tracking disruters to apply to missiles without any mention of a counter and it seems the writing is on the wall.
How about you do the followig CCP:
Remove missiles from the game other than torps (for stealth bombers only) and refund those skill points. You already took away any pirate ships worth training for missile users. Why not just deliver the killing blow? I mean we all know you plan to nerf Tengu to the ground and God knows you hate the Drake (just watch ANY alliance tournament and hear dev comments)
Either give us missile users some modules to choose from and remove those stupid T2 ship penalties or just kill the weapon already. Enough of this stepchild treatment already. Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
50
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Posted - 2012.05.03 01:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Wow, that is a lot of butthurt.
Also first. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Alara IonStorm
2065
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Posted - 2012.05.03 01:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's great that you want a skill refund and all for the fall of Missiles.
But if CCP could please keep those ships in the game and leave me with my Missile SP that would be great.
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Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
84
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Posted - 2012.05.03 02:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
I just want equity, nothing more.
Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Flakey Foont
Republic University Minmatar Republic
116
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Posted - 2012.05.03 02:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
So you have been on Sisi? |
Jack Miton
Bite Me inc Exhale.
229
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Posted - 2012.05.03 02:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
I love the fact that youre complaining about a weapon system that is used by the 2 MOST popular ships in EVE (Tengu and Drake). Really gives me the impression that you have done your research...
Bottom line is that missiles are for carebears, train your toons accordingly. |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
250
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 02:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
We really dont need more of the same, different is good and missiles are doing fine. |
Haulie Berry
30
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Posted - 2012.05.03 02:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets.
Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely.
|
Dhuras
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
3
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Posted - 2012.05.03 02:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
missiles are doing alright for pve, but almost all the good pvp fleets i am running into are using guns, missiles do have a disadvantage with the delay in damage and T2 ammo penalties, its not fun to have SP in something not too good for pvp. I don't missiles are being totally ****** by CCP, but i think they should reconsider nerfing the drake or the tengu. the tengu can be killed quite easily if you're not an idiot, and the drake gives noobs a good ship t fly. it is survivable, but not too big on DPS. it allows the noobs to make some mistakes without totally dying but without letting them rampage with it. |
Rond Dorlezahn
Tri Star Industries Li3 Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.05.03 03:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
No, you wanted to make a whinepost on the forums to get attention. There is a vast difference between wanting equitable change and throwing your toys down whilst crying "WELL YOU MIGHT AS WELL JUST REMOVE MISSILES ALTOGETHER!!! JERKS!!!!"
CCP has already made it clear in the fanfest ship balance chart that Tengus are where they want other T3 cruisers to be, so I don't even know where you're getting your info. I would guess that it's from your ass. |
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Dhuras
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
3
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Posted - 2012.05.03 03:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
Rond Dorlezahn wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
No, you wanted to make a whinepost on the forums to get attention. There is a vast difference between wanting equitable change and throwing your toys down whilst crying "WELL YOU MIGHT AS WELL JUST REMOVE MISSILES ALTOGETHER!!! JERKS!!!!" Or, in your case, a vans deferens
Then don't post here, otherwise you increase the post count here and push it up the ladder of the forum, giving him more attention
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Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
138
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Posted - 2012.05.03 04:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Not fixing cruises and torps ... and the Tracking disruption adding will make TDs the king of kings module for any ship to have.
Its lame really. Fix Cruises and torps ! Afterall the other missile systems (not counting standard light missiles) seem to be fine and tiercide might fix the fitting related issues.
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Niko Takahashi
United Starbase Systems
37
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Posted - 2012.05.03 05:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:I love the fact that youre complaining about a weapon system that is used by the 2 MOST popular ships in EVE (Tengu and Drake). Really gives me the impression that you have done your research...
Bottom line is that missiles are for carebears, train your toons accordingly.
Missiles are for care bears just shows you have no clue. Also the capt Obvious did not you notice it is the same type of the dam missile which is the only one that is not broken aka HML?
Really gives me an impression you have done even less research then him. How about we make that all your hits you ever do with a gun are going tour barely scratches or light hits with no modules to improve it?
If you have no clue shut up please.
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
82
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Posted - 2012.05.03 09:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Niko Takahashi wrote: How about we make that all your hits you ever do with a gun are going tour barely scratches or light hits with no modules to improve it?
If you have no clue shut up please.
news flash! that's exactly what happens when you attack an orbiting small target. except guns can also miss. i happen to agree that most missile types are a little on the weak side but at least use the right arguments when you argue not some random BS. |
Ishanmae
Binding Energy
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:I love the fact that youre complaining about a weapon system that is used by the 2 MOST popular ships in EVE (Tengu and Drake). Really gives me the impression that you have done your research...
Bottom line is that missiles are for carebears, train your toons accordingly.
I hate that argument, which comes up in every thread where missiles, tengus or drakes are mentioned...
Amongst the reasons that make the drake and tengu so popular, the lack of other valid missile ships is quite prevalent. (I do love my Nighthawk though, but it requires more training than a tengu, and gets lower DPS.)
Which means that most people that trained for missiles are likely to fly one of those two ships, while people having trained hybrids, lasers or drones are spread out over more ship hulls... Not to mention projectile weapons!
Not saying it's the only reason, not whining about anything either... just saying I'm tired of that line! |
Jack Miton
Bite Me inc Exhale.
229
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 11:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
Niko Takahashi wrote:Jack Miton wrote:I love the fact that youre complaining about a weapon system that is used by the 2 MOST popular ships in EVE (Tengu and Drake). Really gives me the impression that you have done your research...
Bottom line is that missiles are for carebears, train your toons accordingly. Missiles are for care bears just shows you have no clue. Also the capt Obvious did not you notice it is the same type of the dam missile which is the only one that is not broken aka HML? Really gives me an impression you have done even less research then him. How about we make that all your hits you ever do with a gun are going tour barely scratches or light hits with no modules to improve it? If you have no clue shut up please.
got one, love it :) |
Niko Takahashi
United Starbase Systems
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 12:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Niko Takahashi wrote:Jack Miton wrote:I love the fact that youre complaining about a weapon system that is used by the 2 MOST popular ships in EVE (Tengu and Drake). Really gives me the impression that you have done your research...
Bottom line is that missiles are for carebears, train your toons accordingly. Missiles are for care bears just shows you have no clue. Also the capt Obvious did not you notice it is the same type of the dam missile which is the only one that is not broken aka HML? Really gives me an impression you have done even less research then him. How about we make that all your hits you ever do with a gun are going tour barely scratches or light hits with no modules to improve it? If you have no clue shut up please. got one, love it :)
Obviously not but carry on. In the meantime CCP fix cruises torpedoes and light missiles.
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nahjustwarpin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ishanmae wrote:Jack Miton wrote:I love the fact that youre complaining about a weapon system that is used by the 2 MOST popular ships in EVE (Tengu and Drake). Really gives me the impression that you have done your research...
Bottom line is that missiles are for carebears, train your toons accordingly. I hate that argument, which comes up in every thread where missiles, tengus or drakes are mentioned... Amongst the reasons that make the drake and tengu so popular, the lack of other valid missile ships is quite prevalent. (I do love my Nighthawk though, but it requires more training than a tengu, and gets lower DPS.) Which means that most people that trained for missiles are likely to fly one of those two ships, while people having trained hybrids, lasers or drones are spread out over more ship hulls... Not to mention projectile weapons! Not saying it's the only reason, not whining about anything either... just saying I'm tired of that line!
you do realize, that to train for projectiles, hybrids or lasers requires more time than tengu.
people mostly fly with only t2 hml, but to fly other t3 you need both t2 guns. also you need to train for t2 drones. |
Ishanmae
Binding Energy
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:you do realize, that to train for projectiles, hybrids or lasers requires more time than tengu.
people mostly fly with only t2 hml, but to fly other t3 you need both t2 guns. also you need to train for t2 drones.
Sure... but I wasn't arguing that point, just saying that if Tengus and Drakes are popular, it's ALSO because there are not too many other viable missile ships. And not only because of their own intrinsic virtues.
Saying that missiles are fine using as sole argument that the Tengu and Drake are widely used seems like a moot point to me.
In my opinion, the question is rather are they popular because they use missiles, or despite using them? |
nahjustwarpin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:46:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ishanmae wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:you do realize, that to train for projectiles, hybrids or lasers requires more time than tengu.
people mostly fly with only t2 hml, but to fly other t3 you need both t2 guns. also you need to train for t2 drones. Sure... but I wasn't arguing that point, just saying that if Tengus and Drakes are popular, it's ALSO because there are not too many other viable missile ships. And not only because of their own intrinsic virtues. Saying that missiles are fine using as sole argument that the Tengu and Drake are widely used seems like a moot point to me. In my opinion, the question is rather are they popular because they use missiles, or despite using them?
because they have long range (no slowboating to every targe in pve, easy gtfo in pvp/pve), drake has BS tank, tengu has ridiculous dps for it's range. |
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Ishanmae
Binding Energy
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:because they have long range (no slowboating to every targe in pve, easy gtfo in pvp/pve), drake has BS tank, tengu has ridiculous dps for it's range.
You're missing my point there... I agree that the Tengu and the Drake are great ships... I wasn't saying that missiles are crap either...
I am just saying that the ubiquitous argument *Tengu IS OP, whine whine* doesn't necessarily imply that missiles are OP. And missiles were the topic of discussion.
EDIT: just to clarify... I was pointing to what I perceive as a flaw in the underlying logic of the first post I quoted. I wasn't trying to swing the discussion one way or the other. |
nahjustwarpin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ishanmae wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:because they have long range (no slowboating to every targe in pve, easy gtfo in pvp/pve), drake has BS tank, tengu has ridiculous dps for it's range. You're missing my point there... I agree that the Tengu and the Drake are great ships... I wasn't saying that missiles are crap either... I am just saying that the ubiquitous argument *Tengu IS OP, whine whine* doesn't necessarily imply that missiles are OP. And missiles were the topic of discussion. EDIT: just to clarify... I was pointing to what I perceive as a flaw in the underlying logic of the first post I quoted. I wasn't trying to swing the discussion one way or the other.
you need to reread your own question. you asked about missile boats, so i answered that, and then you changed, that it's not about them, but missiles. |
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Glorious Revolution The 99 Percent
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
You'll get a lot of eye candy to make up for it, though. |
Cunanium
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ishanmae wrote:Jack Miton wrote:I love the fact that youre complaining about a weapon system that is used by the 2 MOST popular ships in EVE (Tengu and Drake). Really gives me the impression that you have done your research...
Bottom line is that missiles are for carebears, train your toons accordingly. I hate that argument, which comes up in every thread where missiles, tengus or drakes are mentioned... Amongst the reasons that make the drake and tengu so popular, the lack of other valid missile ships is quite prevalent. (I do love my Nighthawk though, but it requires more training than a tengu, and gets lower DPS.) Which means that most people that trained for missiles are likely to fly one of those two ships, while people having trained hybrids, lasers or drones are spread out over more ship hulls... Not to mention projectile weapons! Not saying it's the only reason, not whining about anything either... just saying I'm tired of that line!
Your point is invalid. There are many people who are more than capable of flying many many types of ships throughout all races, but yet the Tengu is a major FOTM for pvp. You don't see Loki blobs... you see Tengus. You don't see Prophecy blobs, you see Drake armies.
This isn't to say that there aren't other ships that are blobbed. People still do the Abaddon or geddon blob, AHAC groups still happen, and several new T3's have opened the door for new comps, like Oracle blobs, or Nado/cane groups.
Is there significant room for improvement for missiles? Yes, the T2 ammo's are lack luster, and beefing missiles will improve the other (very few) missile boat opportunities. I have to admit though, most other missile boats that I can think of that have a place in PVP are amarr... and don't have crazy intrinsic missile bonuses.
Everything being said, missiles are no where near as bad as people make them out to be, and in many circumstances give definative bonus (fast tackle on a missile boat with heavy tank... lawl). |
SpaceSquirrels
278
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
Temper tantrum... |
Zyress
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:12:00 -
[26] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely.
Actually they already can and do miss frequently, My range with Light Missiles on my Kestrel is 40.2 KM I have maxed Missile skills, if I shoot at a frigate doing more than 400m/s much past 32KM away I usually will miss completely. |
Kalli Brixzat
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
Zyress wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. Actually they already can and do miss frequently, My range with Light Missiles on my Kestrel is 40.2 KM I have maxed Missile skills, if I shoot at a frigate doing more than 400m/s much past 32KM away I usually will miss completely.
Not really a "miss" per se. More like, shooting stuff that's further away than you can hit.
In any event...OP:
Quit your crying. Missiles are solid PvE weapon systems...especially given that you can do any damage-type and switch on the fly. Missile frigs can be ok (see Kestrel), but missiles just aren't that great for 1v1 or even small gang PvP. |
Sid Hudgens
56
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 01:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
I hate to agree in any way with such a screw-ball post, but I too feel that missiles are doomed.
Why?
Because aside from training an alt up to scrapmetal processing 4 and grinding some standings for for a research agent corp I have been training the heck out of missile skills... and I seem to see a pattern forming.
I am, as usual, only mildly butthurt ... and will, as always, get over it.
I'm just sayin... CCP hates me, but I will not be defeated.
Also I have indisputable proof that goons are behind all of this but I cannot release it for fear the goonies will order TEST to set me blue, a fate far worse than death. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
This post has been brought to you by an NPC corp alt. |
Tarn Kugisa
Space Mongolian Pinked
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 02:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
But... my Sniper Raven! I Endorse this Product and/or Service [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16580[/url] |
11eyes
War Trident Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 03:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tarn Kugisa wrote:But... my Sniper Raven!
I feel you bro. Personally i'd like to see cruise and torps getting a buff, and to all those people complaining that the tengu is OP and it does so much DPS this would be because people faction fit their tengus out the arse in both PVE and PVP. |
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Dhuras
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
4
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Posted - 2012.05.04 04:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
Cunanium wrote:
Your point is invalid. There are many people who are more than capable of flying many many types of ships throughout all races, but yet the Tengu is a major FOTM for pvp. You don't see Loki blobs... you see Tengus. You don't see Prophecy blobs, you see Drake armies.
I can say i see fleets blobing wit loki's and proteuses, NOT tengus quite frequently
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Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 05:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
LOL let's give tengus more than the 160km missile range they can already have |
Sunviking
The Shining Knights
46
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 07:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:We are looking at our asses.
Let's recap. With the introduction of drone damage modules here is the state of things thus far.
Soon lasers, hybrids, projectiles AND drones will have both modules and rigs that modify all their stats. Range, damage and tracking will be altered by modules and rigs. They will also of course continue to receive the benefits of target painters. Recent changes to T2 ammo has removed all or most ship penalties from T2 turret ammo and drones never had such penalties so rejoice! I guess.
MEANWHILE:
Missiles have a damage module and benefit from "tracking" and range enhancements only in the form of rigs or target painters. Add to that the fact that T2 missiles are the only T2 ammo that retains its full ship penalties and things seem bleak at best for missile users. Need I add that CCP announced at fanfest their plans to allow tracking disruters to apply to missiles without any mention of a counter and it seems the writing is on the wall.
How about you do the followig CCP:
Remove missiles from the game other than torps (for stealth bombers only) and refund those skill points. You already took away any pirate ships worth training for missile users. Why not just deliver the killing blow? I mean we all know you plan to nerf Tengu to the ground and God knows you hate the Drake (just watch ANY alliance tournament and hear dev comments)
Either give us missile users some modules to choose from and remove those stupid T2 ship penalties or just kill the weapon already. Enough of this stepchild treatment already.
Given that they are introducing new Missile graphics, I would say that Missiles are hear to stay.
Your suggestion is stupid. If Missiles are removed, why not just remove the whole Caldari race as well? After all, the only reason a large number of players choose to have Cladari characters/alts is because of the perception that Missiles are supposedly good for PvE (which I disagree with, being Caldari myself).
I can understand your frustration at the neglected-child treatment or missiles, but you really should be arguing for Missiles to be rebalanced, not just moaning.
I started a Thread in General Discussion about Missile Rebalancing, of which everybody's support and/or comments would be appreciated. |
Bap1811
Club Bear
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 11:25:00 -
[34] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. One day you will learn game mechanics.
Maybe. |
Zyress
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
Kalli Brixzat wrote:Zyress wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. Actually they already can and do miss frequently, My range with Light Missiles on my Kestrel is 40.2 KM I have maxed Missile skills, if I shoot at a frigate doing more than 400m/s much past 32KM away I usually will miss completely. Not really a "miss" per se. More like, shooting stuff that's further away than you can hit. In any event...OP: Quit your crying. Missiles are solid PvE weapon systems...especially given that you can do any damage-type and switch on the fly. Missile frigs can be ok (see Kestrel), but missiles just aren't that great for 1v1 or even small gang PvP.
So how is my missile running out of fuel while chasing a target inside my maximum range different from a turret ship missing a target because its tracking can't keep up? Lots of ships are fast enough to do it much further inside my range |
Haulie Berry
33
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:15:00 -
[36] - Quote
Bap1811 wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. One day you will learn game mechanics. Maybe.
Relative velocity. As in, the velocity of the target with respect to the velocity of your ship. This is a concern for turret ships as your own velocity affects transversal as much as the other guy's. Missiles do not suffer from this. They do not care how fast you are going, they only care how fast the other guy is going. |
Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:18:00 -
[37] - Quote
There's nothing wrong with missiles. Half the population of Eve is flying a tengu or drake. |
Zyress
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:21:00 -
[38] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Bap1811 wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. One day you will learn game mechanics. Maybe. Relative velocity. As in, the velocity of the target with respect to the velocity of your ship. This is a concern for turret ships as your own velocity affects transversal as much as the other guy's. Missiles do not suffer from this. They do not care how fast you are going, they only care how fast the other guy is going. One day you will learn to read.
Relative Velocity or Angular velocity, a miss is still a miss |
Haulie Berry
34
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Posted - 2012.05.04 15:27:00 -
[39] - Quote
Zyress wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Bap1811 wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. One day you will learn game mechanics. Maybe. Relative velocity. As in, the velocity of the target with respect to the velocity of your ship. This is a concern for turret ships as your own velocity affects transversal as much as the other guy's. Missiles do not suffer from this. They do not care how fast you are going, they only care how fast the other guy is going. One day you will learn to read. Relative Velocity or Angular velocity, a miss is still a miss One day you will come up with something better than "One day" to preface your criticisms
One day you, will learn how to use punctuation.
And, yes, while it is technically possible to outrun oversized missiles in small, fast ships, this is a relatively fringe case, whereas getting under someone's guns is a completely normal and routine event.
In practice, it doesn't happen. If you're missing with missiles, it's because whatever you're shooting at is too far away, or you're doing something particularly stupid like lobbing torpedos at an interceptor. They really can't code around your particular brand of stupid, so that's okay. In actual practice, 99/100 times missiles can be reasonably said to not miss. This cannot be said of turrets. |
Ravenesa
The Bastards The Bastards.
33
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Posted - 2012.05.04 15:41:00 -
[40] - Quote
You see missiles more in small gang PvP compared to large scale PvP, though that is not always the case (Goon Drake/Male fleets) but there is some room for improvement.
1. I agree the T2 ship penalty removal should apply to missiles as well, it is only "fair"
2. Missle "Short Range" weapons take a completely opposite path compared to Blasters, Lasers, and AC's. When you switch to these weaposn you get improved tracking and damage, but at the cost of range. For Rockets, HAM's and Torps you get the range reduction and the better paper DPS, but the whole sig radious/explo velcioty damare reduction makes them worse, especially against smaller targets. Medium guns can hit small targets, HAM's hit for jack squat. |
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Zyress
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:56:00 -
[41] - Quote
Quote: Relative velocity. As in, the velocity of the target with respect to the velocity of your ship. This is a concern for turret ships as your own velocity affects transversal as much as the other guy's. Missiles do not suffer from this. They do not care how fast you are going, they only care how fast the other guy is going.
One day you will learn to read.
Relative Velocity or Angular velocity, a miss is still a miss One day you will come up with something better than "One day" to preface your criticisms[/quote]
One day you, will learn how to use punctuation.
And, yes, while it is technically possible to outrun oversized missiles in small, fast ships, this is a relatively fringe case, whereas getting under someone's guns is a completely normal and routine event.
In practice, it doesn't happen. If you're missing with missiles, it's because whatever you're shooting at is too far away, or you're doing something particularly stupid like lobbing torpedos at an interceptor. They really can't code around your particular brand of stupid, so that's okay. In actual practice, 99/100 times missiles can be reasonably said to not miss. This cannot be said of turrets.[/quote]
Haulie you silly ****... Maximum speed for a Standard Light Missile with maximum missile skills is 5250 m/s, slower if you don't have max skills. Most interceptors and some pirate frigates can outrun them from 0 - whatever. Your pig headedness is only exceeded by your malodorous phraseology. |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:02:00 -
[42] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Niko Takahashi wrote: How about we make that all your hits you ever do with a gun are going tour barely scratches or light hits with no modules to improve it?
If you have no clue shut up please.
news flash! that's exactly what happens when you attack an orbiting small target. except guns can also miss. i happen to agree that most missile types are a little on the weak side but at least use the right arguments when you argue not some random BS. Except with guns you can fly manually and lower your transversal, while with missiles you just get what you get. So to quote you..at least use the right arguments when you argue not some random BS. |
ROXGenghis
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:08:00 -
[43] - Quote
This is a simple case of "the grass is greener" mindset.
When you can only use a limited number of ships or weapons, you psychologically magnify the shortcomings of your stuff and the advantages of other people's stuff.
Once you can fly everything, you can see the pros and cons of all the ships and weapons, and find yourself using a sampling of stuff from each race, depending on the type of PVP you're doing at the moment. Everything is useful: active and passive tanks, armor and shields, missiles and guns, long and short range. And you know what, you realize that Eve is actually really well balanced given it's variety.
More importantly, once you can fly everything, you thank God (or CCP) that such variety exists among the various races, ships, weapons, tank, ewar, etc. It gives you a reason to fly "the other guy's stuff." Making things homogenous would destroy long-term enjoyment of the game. Even CCP's constant buffer/nerf cycles have a useful effect here: they keep the game fresh. FOTM is a good thing, promoting innovation and preventing stagnation.
So keep PVPing, keep training, and enjoy the ride. |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
80
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:10:00 -
[44] - Quote
Worm/Gila/Rattle arent't missile ships, they're shield tanking drone boats with missile support they trade dps for massive tank and damage type selection. The problem isn't missile mechanics, its that caldari hulls tend to suck. |
Kalli Brixzat
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 22:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Worm/Gila/Rattle arent't missile ships, they're shield tanking drone boats with missile support they trade dps for massive tank and damage type selection. The problem isn't missile mechanics, its that caldari hulls tend to suck.
There's no Caldari (or Caldari-related pitate faction) ship that doesn't have it's place in the game. Short of the Bantam, even the frigs all have their clear uses - and they are generally effective at whatever that role is.
So...no...Caldari hulls don't suck. You just don't like them. See the difference, cupcake? |
BearJews
Android Arms And Industrial Corporation Tenth Legion
35
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 22:57:00 -
[46] - Quote
Missile systems do suck and it's pretty obvious considering nobody likes them unless you're bobbing it up. The instant I could use turetts I haven't looked back for pvp. I think if they had more mods for missile boats we wouldn't see as much whining. It's a matter of how much love they give to turrets compared to missiles. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
85
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
ROXGenghis wrote:This is a simple case of "the grass is greener" mindset.
When you can only use a limited number of ships or weapons, you psychologically magnify the shortcomings of your stuff and the advantages of other people's stuff.
Once you can fly everything, you can see the pros and cons of all the ships and weapons, and find yourself using a sampling of stuff from each race, depending on the type of PVP you're doing at the moment. Everything is useful: active and passive tanks, armor and shields, missiles and guns, long and short range. And you know what, you realize that Eve is actually really well balanced given it's variety.
More importantly, once you can fly everything, you thank God (or CCP) that such variety exists among the various races, ships, weapons, tank, ewar, etc. It gives you a reason to fly "the other guy's stuff." Making things homogenous would destroy long-term enjoyment of the game. Even CCP's constant buffer/nerf cycles have a useful effect here: they keep the game fresh. FOTM is a good thing, promoting innovation and preventing stagnation.
So keep PVPing, keep training, and enjoy the ride.
I fly all ships sub Capitol. Now what? Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
86
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:59:00 -
[48] - Quote
Schalac wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Niko Takahashi wrote: How about we make that all your hits you ever do with a gun are going tour barely scratches or light hits with no modules to improve it?
If you have no clue shut up please.
news flash! that's exactly what happens when you attack an orbiting small target. except guns can also miss. i happen to agree that most missile types are a little on the weak side but at least use the right arguments when you argue not some random BS. Except with guns you can fly manually and lower your transversal, while with missiles you just get what you get. So to quote you..at least use the right arguments when you argue not some random BS. unless your opponent is not a ****** and flies manually too. also, falloff. |
Sid Hudgens
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
I know...
Let's just make everything the same! Problem solved. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
This post has been brought to you by an NPC corp alt. |
Dhuras
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:13:00 -
[50] - Quote
I'm not totally which side is right on this, but one thing to consider: turrets have 2 kinds (tracking computers and tracking enhancers) of modules plus rigs to increase tracking speed and range. Missiles have no such modules to increase their explosions velocity or radius or max velocity/flight time.
|
|
serras bang
Lucien Coven
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:34:00 -
[51] - Quote
what i do find funny is people are saying missiles are fine and the 2 best ships that cal have are over powerd really ?
cal aint got a ship that volleys at 14 k .
or many if any missiles boats that fire viably over 100 k |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 03:39:00 -
[52] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Wow, that is a lot of butthurt.
Also first.
Yeah well when your caldari pilot has 8 mil out of 23 mil in missile launchers and they make them useless that tends to make my butt hurt too.
Why the hell DONT they give missiles a miss % an make only the "guided" ones always hit? I always see a lot of butthurt gun users that missiles always hit (hardly ever apply full damage to the target mind you but lest ignore that) I've commented repeatedly that behavior in game reveals a truth about a person in their real life as well. Never has that been demonstrated so successfully in the alliance panel this year at Fanfest. Issler-á ---- Your VOTED CSM |
ROXGenghis
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 03:40:00 -
[53] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:ROXGenghis wrote:So keep PVPing, keep training, and enjoy the ride. I fly all ships sub Capitol. Now what? Maybe try PVP? Or post with your main?
|
Dhuras
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 03:51:00 -
[54] - Quote
ROXGenghis wrote:Patri Andari wrote:ROXGenghis wrote:So keep PVPing, keep training, and enjoy the ride. I fly all ships sub Capitol. Now what? Maybe try PVP? Or post with your main?
or you two ladies can talk about the actual issue and not ***** about anecdotes and who is posting on what character like two little children. |
ROXGenghis
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 04:08:00 -
[55] - Quote
Dhuras wrote:ROXGenghis wrote:Patri Andari wrote:ROXGenghis wrote:So keep PVPing, keep training, and enjoy the ride. I fly all ships sub Capitol. Now what? Maybe try PVP? Or post with your main? or you two ladies can talk about the actual issue and not ***** about anecdotes and who is posting on what character like two little children.
Hey now, my first post was very well thought out and contributed something totally new to the conversation in this thread by looking at the big picture rather than getting lost in the minutiae. It was right on target about the original issue.
Patri's response was snide and I wondered why, so I looked him up and realized his OP was a troll from someone with no idea what they were talking about. So I just called him out on his troll.
If you think that brief exchange between us was worth ranting about, I'm surprised you can tolerate half the threads on these forums! :P |
Dhuras
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation Moist.
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 04:11:00 -
[56] - Quote
Heh, true that my friend. I try to only frequent these dark caves so often, now being one of those times.
Back on track, i think we can all agree that with the update that will cause tracking disruptors to affect missile damage missiles WILL need some sort of buff, be it modules to increase missile range/explosion velocity or a general damage buff. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
58
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 04:35:00 -
[57] - Quote
ROXGenghis wrote:Patri Andari wrote:ROXGenghis wrote:So keep PVPing, keep training, and enjoy the ride. I fly all ships sub Capitol. Now what? Maybe try PVP? Or post with your main?
Youd have to talk to CCP about letting ME do that lol
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:Wow, that is a lot of butthurt.
Also first. Yeah well when your caldari pilot has 8 mil out of 23 mil in missile launchers and they make them useless that tends to make my butt hurt too. Why the hell DONT they give missiles a miss % an make only the "guided" ones always hit? I always see a lot of butthurt gun users that missiles always hit (hardly ever apply full damage to the target mind you but lest ignore that)
This tho... answer this lol
the second not as much as the first I've commented repeatedly that behavior in game reveals a truth about a person in their real life as well. Never has that been demonstrated so successfully in the alliance panel this year at Fanfest. Issler-á ---- Your VOTED CSM |
Sol Invectus
Sol Invectus Corporation
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 09:37:00 -
[58] - Quote
Also no one mentioned but t2 missile prices are ridicilous; pricing between 700-1500 isk per missile. So each salvo costs like 5k-10k ISK. Lets say you kill a 1mil bounty NPC battleship in 10 salvo, it will cost you 100k ammo price, so permanent 10% reduction in your income if you use t2 missiles. Yes you kill them faster but then what is the point on using t2 missiles if you spend so much money on them?
I am not even mentioning silly t2 missile penalties to the ship. |
bubble trout
Terra Corporation
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:48:00 -
[59] - Quote
Don't use it then? All T2 large ammo is fairly pricey. Use it only if it is worth it to you.
As for the penalties, those are kinda dumb. |
Gorki Andropov
Kerensky Initiatives
341
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:57:00 -
[60] - Quote
Oh, do get over yourself, Princess Mono-wah-wah. |
|
Garphunkle
ROC Academy The ROC
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 23:55:00 -
[61] - Quote
Missiles are pretty now. The flame stickers CCP put onto the torps makes them faster and more explode--y. |
Mira Lynne
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 03:42:00 -
[62] - Quote
Garphunkle wrote:Missiles are pretty now. The flame stickers CCP put onto the torps makes them faster and more explode--y.
Atleast we now have something pretty to stare at while it takes ages and ages to kill an untanked industrial |
Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
161
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 19:29:00 -
[63] - Quote
Mira Lynne wrote:Garphunkle wrote:Missiles are pretty now. The flame stickers CCP put onto the torps makes them faster and more explode--y. Atleast we now have something pretty to stare at while it takes ages and ages to kill an untanked industrial I'm going to assume that you're exaggerating to make a point, because if you can't kill an untanked indy ship in a reasonable amount of time with missiles then you're doing something terribly wrong with your ship fits.
That said, I've never really understood the whining about missiles that caldari players seem to have in excess. The drake is amazing, the tengu is amazing, the raven is at least decent (its only real problem being the fact that missiles do poorly in fleet fights and BSs do poorly in smaller gangs, for the most part). Sure some of the missile ships are bad, but then there aren't really that many of them to begin with are there? Expecting them to all be good is unreasonable to say the least.
What's more is that people whine so much about the downsides of missiles, as though that's not the idea that they're built around. Missiles are capless, high damage projection, variable damage type weapons. Making that damage difficult to apply in full is the only thing keeping the game from becoming caldari online. If torps didn't do so little damage without support why would you want to use anything else? The problem, I think, stems less from the fact that missiles are bad, and more from the fact that people chose a race/weapon system based on looks, decided they don't like the playstyle attached to it, and came to the conclusion that this must mean that the weapons are underpowered, rather than simply having their own inherent weaknesses.
|
Skwiche
Shinigami Miners Lawful Insanity
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 01:22:00 -
[64] - Quote
my main concern with missiles is explosion velocity it seems the only way to counteract this is to web your target . now with turrets you can do the same if the ship you are trying to hit is too close or too fast . or if your ship is faster you can fly further away to reduce the amout of tracking requiredd to hit the target you cannot with missiles. however if your using long range missiles trying to hit a fast ship you can't really do much in this case to get a better hit. unless you get webber drones where as if your using railguns shooting a long distance speed at such long ranges doesn't really seem to bother me. so basically what i'm tryig to say i guess is we need a module to increase explosion velocity or decrease dmg loss from targets speed due to explosion velocity.
on another note not sure how anyone will react to this short rage weapons such as blasters ad autocannons have high tracking the closest thing to tracking i could figure out with missiles is again explosion velocity so again either increase explosion velocity or perhaps add a module to do the job or find a way to add this bonus to missile ships or make a new ship with this bonus on it instead of 5% to shield resist. |
Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
161
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 01:37:00 -
[65] - Quote
Skwiche wrote:my main concern with missiles is explosion velocity it seems the only way to counteract this is to web your target . now with turrets you can do the same if the ship you are trying to hit is too close or too fast . or if your ship is faster you can fly further away to reduce the amout of tracking requiredd to hit the target you cannot with missiles. however if your using long range missiles trying to hit a fast ship you can't really do much in this case to get a better hit. unless you get webber drones where as if your using railguns shooting a long distance speed at such long ranges doesn't really seem to bother me. so basically what i'm tryig to say i guess is we need a module to increase explosion velocity or decrease dmg loss from targets speed due to explosion velocity.
on another note not sure how anyone will react to this short rage weapons such as blasters ad autocannons have high tracking the closest thing to tracking i could figure out with missiles is again explosion velocity so again either increase explosion velocity or perhaps add a module to do the job or find a way to add this bonus to missile ships or make a new ship with this bonus on it instead of 5% to shield resist.
Again, you're looking at the downsides of missiles, and ignoring the benefits. If missiles used cap and/or had fixed damage types, or had worse DPS, or worse range, you might have a point, but as it stands those downsides aren't making missiles bad, they're keeping them from being OP.
Look at torps: Blaster damage, better damage type selection than ACs, and on a raven hull they come close to pulse range. If they had all that AND were easy to use, would there be any reason to use anything else? |
Noisrevbus
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 01:49:00 -
[66] - Quote
Cambarus wrote: Again, you're looking at the downsides of missiles, and ignoring the benefits. If missiles used cap and/or had fixed damage types, or had worse DPS, or worse range, you might have a point, but as it stands those downsides aren't making missiles bad, they're keeping them from being OP.
Look at torps: Blaster damage, better damage type selection than ACs, and on a raven hull they come close to pulse range. If they had all that AND were easy to use, would there be any reason to use anything else?
To be perfectly honest Cambarus, i think much of the complaints are compensation-arguments given the amount of flack HML catches. When popular use and general application of HML is brought up (incorrectly in my oppinion) as malbalanced, things like the accuracy of Torpedos are brought up as a counter-point.
Neither side completely correct of course, but it cast some light on the mechanics missiles are balanced around. HML have the same core mechanics as Torpedos, and while they hit above the curve for "general application" something like Torpedos hit below the same curve. It means that some effort must be put into countering HML or applying Torpedo, effort most people are unwilling to factor in and rather complain about.
It does provide an interesting and somewhat understandable overview though:
"HML are good - Missiles are bad". HML platforms with damage + tank bonuses are good - platforms with range bonuses are generally superfluous. HML is fairly easy to apply on most ships (using staple modules like MWD) - Torpedos are respectively difficult to apply, while Turrets and their accuracy equation conversely have some advantages "blapping down".
Those are generalisations while all missiles obviously share the same mechanics and should be regarded the same way, balance-wise. They have their advantages and they have their drawbacks. They have their situational application and they have their prerequesites.
On the whole, i'd say all of it is generally balanced well enough not to poke around in it, even if certain lobbyists seem intent on it. The issues people experience with Torpedos give insight into how Missiles on a whole is balanced, and how you should deal with HML (instead of complaining about it).
This whole thread is a fitting example, as it popped up after a full week of multiple poorly concieved anti- Drake and Tengu threads. |
Skwiche
Shinigami Miners Lawful Insanity
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 02:02:00 -
[67] - Quote
ok so you have a point there. but comparing missiles to projectile's neither use cap and you can modify the dmg dealt by projectiles to a certain degree however i don't think i have much say here as i haven't really used projectiles as much as i have with missiles. however you can get modules that increase tracking that can go in either med or low slot which inturn can increase the chance of a higher hit due to perfect strike where as missiles only have ballistic control rof and dmg increase which is the same as heat sink gyrostabs and the other one i just can't think of it. i'm not however saying missiles are rubbish i'm just saying that they may benefit from an explosion velocity bonus. other than that i don't have a problem with missiles. saying that i don't have a problem with turrets either. |
Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
161
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 03:06:00 -
[68] - Quote
Skwiche wrote:ok so you have a point there. but comparing missiles to projectile's neither use cap and you can modify the dmg dealt by projectiles to a certain degree however i don't think i have much say here as i haven't really used projectiles as much as i have with missiles. however you can get modules that increase tracking that can go in either med or low slot which inturn can increase the chance of a higher hit due to perfect strike where as missiles only have ballistic control rof and dmg increase which is the same as heat sink gyrostabs and the other one i just can't think of it. i'm not however saying missiles are rubbish i'm just saying that they may benefit from an explosion velocity bonus. other than that i don't have a problem with missiles. saying that i don't have a problem with turrets either. From my last post: Look at torps: Blaster damage, better damage type selection than ACs, and on a raven hull they come close to pulse range. If they had all that AND were easy to use, would there be any reason to use anything else?
To illustrate this point: Raven with torps vs tempest with ACs, megathron with neutrons, geddon with pulses: At 24km (non overloaded point range): The raven does 1100 DPS, the pest does ~550. The raven literally does twice the DPS, with 100% damage selection. A megathron does 1161 with its guns in optimal, which is about 1 tenth the range of what torp ravens get, while having no variable damage, and using cap. A geddon has an optimal of 15+10km with multi (compared to a torp raven getting 27-30km with rage / faction torps) and 45+10km with scorch, compared to 45km with a raven using javelins.
Torps are basically the best attributes of every other close range weapon combined, with the drawback that their damage is difficult to apply. Adding a missile equivalent of tracking computers would ruin this. Flight time for torps is negligible, so if you make their damage easy to apply you literally remove the only drawback that the weapon has. It'd be like giving blasters 30km base range, or removing the cap use on pulses, or swapping the optimal/falloff values on ACs. |
Aggressive Nutmeg
230
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 07:03:00 -
[69] - Quote
Missiles are fine, but pretty skill-intensive.
Anyone who thinks missiles are just for PVE or just for carebears is just an idiot. Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana. |
Otrebla Utrigas
Space Bastards
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 07:39:00 -
[70] - Quote
I don't see the point on this discussion.
Missiles have their advantages and their drawbacks (as every other weapon has)
As you have to do with turrets, you need to know where your weapons are strong, and where they aren't.
F.ex I'know i cannot out damage an autocannon rifter with my kestrel at point blank, but i can use MWD to orbit at 6 km while shooting full damage out of autocannon optimal (and at a long fall off range) I got webbed, he got webbed, i got scrammed, he got scrammed. I still have much more range than him, and web allows my rockets to apply full damage.
GG.
You can do full damage from point blank to max range.
You don't have to worry about your tracking (although you should manually pilot because the other guy tracking is important :D)
Sniper ravens apply full damage at maximum range at the trade of damage delay and only being capable of shooting med/big ships.
Golem can outdamage and out range any other BS with close range weaponary, with full damage selection.
My SNI can stay in the middle or almost any L4 mission, just shooting big ships, swapping damages and using drones to kill the small ones, which in the end, if I focus them with painters they fall in three or 4 shoots, even if they are orbiting at 450 m/s at 3000m. Try to do that with any other BS.
Know your weapon, know your advantadges and disadvantadges. Play accordingly. |
|
Dato Koppla
Perkone Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 15:29:00 -
[71] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Skwiche wrote:ok so you have a point there. but comparing missiles to projectile's neither use cap and you can modify the dmg dealt by projectiles to a certain degree however i don't think i have much say here as i haven't really used projectiles as much as i have with missiles. however you can get modules that increase tracking that can go in either med or low slot which inturn can increase the chance of a higher hit due to perfect strike where as missiles only have ballistic control rof and dmg increase which is the same as heat sink gyrostabs and the other one i just can't think of it. i'm not however saying missiles are rubbish i'm just saying that they may benefit from an explosion velocity bonus. other than that i don't have a problem with missiles. saying that i don't have a problem with turrets either. From my last post: Look at torps: Blaster damage, better damage type selection than ACs, and on a raven hull they come close to pulse range. If they had all that AND were easy to use, would there be any reason to use anything else? To illustrate this point: Raven with torps vs tempest with ACs, megathron with neutrons, geddon with pulses: At 24km (non overloaded point range): The raven does 1100 DPS, the pest does ~550. The raven literally does twice the DPS, with 100% damage selection. A megathron does 1161 with its guns in optimal, which is about 1 tenth the range of what torp ravens get, while having no variable damage, and using cap. A geddon has an optimal of 15+10km with multi (compared to a torp raven getting 27-30km with rage / faction torps) and 45+10km with scorch, compared to 45km with a raven using javelins. Torps are basically the best attributes of every other close range weapon combined, with the drawback that their damage is difficult to apply. Adding a missile equivalent of tracking computers would ruin this. Flight time for torps is negligible, so if you make their damage easy to apply you literally remove the only drawback that the weapon has. It'd be like giving blasters 30km base range, or removing the cap use on pulses, or swapping the optimal/falloff values on ACs.
Nice stats but in the real world it's universally agreed that a gunboat will be chosen over a Raven in 90% of PvP situations. So yeah, I'd take a damage/range nerf if it means some instant damage and actually being able to hit things other than POSs. |
ELECTR0FREAK
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 03:44:00 -
[72] - Quote
Missiles are hardly in any danger of becoming underpowered. Trust me on this one... I know a few things about missiles. ;) Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula. |
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
98
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 00:17:00 -
[73] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:I love the fact that youre complaining about a weapon system that is used by the 2 MOST popular ships in EVE (Tengu and Drake). FOR PVE <----- fixed this Really gives me the impression that you have done your research...
Bottom line is that missiles are for carebears, train your toons accordingly.
Bottom line is that old stupid players still think newer guy's can make enough isk to buy ships and equipment PVP'ing in unskilled T1 frigs in low or null sec? |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 01:05:00 -
[74] - Quote
Missiles are the Mining of weapons systems
Otrebla Utrigas wrote:I don't see the point on this discussion.
Missiles have their advantages and their drawbacks (as every other weapon has)
As you have to do with turrets, you need to know where your weapons are strong, and where they aren't.
F.ex I'know i cannot out damage an autocannon rifter with my kestrel at point blank, but i can use MWD to orbit at 6 km while shooting full damage out of autocannon optimal (and at a long fall off range) I got webbed, he got webbed, i got scrammed, he got scrammed. I still have much more range than him, and web allows my rockets to apply full damage.
GG.
You can do full damage from point blank to max range.
You don't have to worry about your tracking (although you should manually pilot because the other guy tracking is important :D)
Sniper ravens apply full damage at maximum range at the trade of damage delay and only being capable of shooting med/big ships.
Golem can outdamage and out range any other BS with close range weaponary, with full damage selection.
My SNI can stay in the middle or almost any L4 mission, just shooting big ships, swapping damages and using drones to kill the small ones, which in the end, if I focus them with painters they fall in three or 4 shoots, even if they are orbiting at 450 m/s at 3000m. Try to do that with any other BS.
Know your weapon, know your advantadges and disadvantadges. Play accordingly.
I like missiles for most of those reasons. Optimal range crap is annoying as ****, look to Amarr as to why damage typing is annoying as **** (having a race unable to/limited to change damage types in a game where damage types are this important it more than ********). http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2317/JKES0811.17.1 Bees That Drink Human Tears -- ITS SCIENCE!!! |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
74
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 01:25:00 -
[75] - Quote
Missiles are the Mining of weapons systems
deserves its own post http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2317/JKES0811.17.1 Bees That Drink Human Tears -- ITS SCIENCE!!! |
Francis Longbottom
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 22:47:00 -
[76] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:We are looking at our asses.
Let's recap. With the introduction of drone damage modules here is the state of things thus far.
Soon lasers, hybrids, projectiles AND drones will have both modules and rigs that modify all their stats. Range, damage and tracking will be altered by modules and rigs. They will also of course continue to receive the benefits of target painters. Recent changes to T2 ammo has removed all or most ship penalties from T2 turret ammo and drones never had such penalties so rejoice! I guess.
MEANWHILE:
Missiles have a damage module and benefit from "tracking" and range enhancements only in the form of rigs or target painters. Add to that the fact that T2 missiles are the only T2 ammo that retains its full ship penalties and things seem bleak at best for missile users. Need I add that CCP announced at fanfest their plans to allow tracking disruters to apply to missiles without any mention of a counter and it seems the writing is on the wall.
How about you do the followig CCP:
Remove missiles from the game other than torps (for stealth bombers only) and refund those skill points. You already took away any pirate ships worth training for missile users. Why not just deliver the killing blow? I mean we all know you plan to nerf Tengu to the ground and God knows you hate the Drake (just watch ANY alliance tournament and hear dev comments)
Either give us missile users some modules to choose from and remove those stupid T2 ship penalties or just kill the weapon already. Enough of this stepchild treatment already.
I agree.. Missiles a shat right now and have been. Caldari in general, suck compared to others.. aside from the tengu and drake which is going to be nerfed and no doubt tengu as well. Which will no doubt complete the full scale ship superiority of minmatar. In which loki and cane will have complete domination. Caldari has been lacking.. The falcon is not a large number fleet ship..The raven is easily surpassed by most every other BS. you can make a rohk decent but its not a missile ship.
So when you break it down.. missile ships suck compared to others and go figure, ccp is swinging the nerf bat again, yet have no reason too.. Caldari hacs suck..recons are alright, in general the drake and tengu, and the recent changes to harpy and hawk are really the only thing worth using and 2 on that list will get the bat..
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Francis Longbottom
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2012.05.14 22:48:00 -
[77] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:I love the fact that youre complaining about a weapon system that is used by the 2 MOST popular ships in EVE (Tengu and Drake). Really gives me the impression that you have done your research...
Bottom line is that missiles are for carebears, train your toons accordingly.
in which they are getting nerfed..So whats left? Hawk and harpy..oh and occasional falcon..woohoo...
my guess is that you are a minmatar pilot.
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Francis Longbottom
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2012.05.14 22:50:00 -
[78] - Quote
Nalha Saldana wrote:We really dont need more of the same, different is good and missiles are doing fine.
People say obama is doing fine.. Which we all know is bull crap. |
Francis Longbottom
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2012.05.14 22:58:00 -
[79] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:Ishanmae wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:you do realize, that to train for projectiles, hybrids or lasers requires more time than tengu.
people mostly fly with only t2 hml, but to fly other t3 you need both t2 guns. also you need to train for t2 drones. Sure... but I wasn't arguing that point, just saying that if Tengus and Drakes are popular, it's ALSO because there are not too many other viable missile ships. And not only because of their own intrinsic virtues. Saying that missiles are fine using as sole argument that the Tengu and Drake are widely used seems like a moot point to me. In my opinion, the question is rather are they popular because they use missiles, or despite using them? because they have long range (no slowboating to every targe in pve, easy gtfo in pvp/pve), drake has BS tank, tengu has ridiculous dps for it's range.
Drake has crap dps with heavies, compared to the other BC's and Hams eat alot of PG. Which is why it has a better tank. Tengu has great range and great dps.. then again, a rail proteus,and arty loki can reach farther. So isnt that great !! one solid ship for caldari and the rest suck... Shall we go into how many winmatar ships dont suck?
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Francis Longbottom
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2012.05.14 23:00:00 -
[80] - Quote
Cunanium wrote:Ishanmae wrote:Jack Miton wrote:I love the fact that youre complaining about a weapon system that is used by the 2 MOST popular ships in EVE (Tengu and Drake). Really gives me the impression that you have done your research...
Bottom line is that missiles are for carebears, train your toons accordingly. I hate that argument, which comes up in every thread where missiles, tengus or drakes are mentioned... Amongst the reasons that make the drake and tengu so popular, the lack of other valid missile ships is quite prevalent. (I do love my Nighthawk though, but it requires more training than a tengu, and gets lower DPS.) Which means that most people that trained for missiles are likely to fly one of those two ships, while people having trained hybrids, lasers or drones are spread out over more ship hulls... Not to mention projectile weapons! Not saying it's the only reason, not whining about anything either... just saying I'm tired of that line! Your point is invalid. There are many people who are more than capable of flying many many types of ships throughout all races, but yet the Tengu is a major FOTM for pvp. You don't see Loki blobs... you see Tengus. You don't see Prophecy blobs, you see Drake armies. This isn't to say that there aren't other ships that are blobbed. People still do the Abaddon or geddon blob, AHAC groups still happen, and several new T3's have opened the door for new comps, like Oracle blobs, or Nado/cane groups. Is there significant room for improvement for missiles? Yes, the T2 ammo's are lack luster, and beefing missiles will improve the other (very few) missile boat opportunities. I have to admit though, most other missile boats that I can think of that have a place in PVP are amarr... and don't have crazy intrinsic missile bonuses. Everything being said, missiles are no where near as bad as people make them out to be, and in many circumstances give definative bonus (fast tackle on a missile boat with heavy tank... lawl).
I see cane and maelstrom blobs more than drake blobs..When do you ever see a rohk or raven blob? oh wait... you dont |
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Francis Longbottom
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2012.05.14 23:03:00 -
[81] - Quote
Kalli Brixzat wrote:Zyress wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. Actually they already can and do miss frequently, My range with Light Missiles on my Kestrel is 40.2 KM I have maxed Missile skills, if I shoot at a frigate doing more than 400m/s much past 32KM away I usually will miss completely. Not really a "miss" per se. More like, shooting stuff that's further away than you can hit. In any event...OP: Quit your crying. Missiles are solid PvE weapon systems...especially given that you can do any damage-type and switch on the fly. Missile frigs can be ok (see Kestrel), but missiles just aren't that great for 1v1 or even small gang PvP.
yet all other weapon systems can be used for pve as well, lazers are great, arties and autos as well.rails are still a little weak, though blasters have short range, they make short work of anything they hit.. So shut your trap.
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Francis Longbottom
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2012.05.14 23:23:00 -
[82] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Bap1811 wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. One day you will learn game mechanics. Maybe. Relative velocity. As in, the velocity of the target with respect to the velocity of your ship. This is a concern for turret ships as your own velocity affects transversal as much as the other guy's. Missiles do not suffer from this. They do not care how fast you are going, they only care how fast the other guy is going.
they are also subject to sig radius and damage loss from speed..Oh, and they do have a range and can actually be hit by other weapons such as smart bombs or defender missiles and even better...they dont hit instantly like turrets...all you have to do is worry about tracking.. |
Soldarius
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
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Posted - 2012.05.15 02:11:00 -
[83] - Quote
Zyress wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Patri Andari wrote:I just want equity, nothing more.
Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets. Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. Actually they already can and do miss frequently, My range with Light Missiles on my Kestrel is 40.2 KM I have maxed Missile skills, if I shoot at a frigate doing more than 400m/s much past 32KM away I usually will miss completely.
You obviously have little understanding of how missiles work. Let me explain it.
If said frigate is flying away from you at speed when you fire at 32km, it will be beyond the max range of your missiles by the time they reach their max range.
The missiles aren't so much missing, as they are simply running out of fuel because you don't know how they work. If the missile reaches the target before the end of it's maximum flight time, it will always cause damage.
Also, the missile damage formula already takes velocity into account. IF the target is flying faster than the missile's explosion velocity, they deal less damage. You can neut them to shut off prop mods, scram them to shut off MWD, and web them to slow them down directly.
Get a bro in a boosting loki, rapier, or huginn to help with webs. Rapier and Huginn also get bonuses to TP which can also increase missile damage by increasing the target's signature radius. "How do you kill that which has no life?" |
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