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Shintai
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Posted - 2003.06.23 08:08:00 -
[31]
I can hold 2 multispectrals active 24/7 with my loadout on my Thorax. I bet a Battleship with 4-5x more cap and more slots to support the cap needed can hold the doubble amount needed for 3 tech V multispectrals. Add projectiles and a shieldbooster maybe. And you canŠt die, but still kill.
Its basicly like the weapon mod nerf. Its like peeing in your pants. beacuse the higher lvl weapon mods and 7-8 lowslots on a battleship will ruin the nerf and need a renerf.
Currently we are spinning around in a negative feedback cyclus instead of fixing the long term problems.
Try think about who uses armour upgrades. Armarr was intented too..but do they use them? And Armour upgrades/resists are utterly weak compared to tac shields.
Edited by: Shintai on 23/06/2003 08:13:47
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Falnaerith
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Posted - 2003.06.23 08:19:00 -
[32]
From what i have seen and looked at these things, they basically just beef up the shields to absorb damage correct? Meaning it is still energy.
Would it not be wise to nerf the em damage resists with these things, say to 40% on the 80% one and 20% on the 40?
It would seem to clear up many issues while still offering protection and not nerfing them too much.
Of course, who uses missles/ammo not em on shields?
Now that's a stupid idea if these bracers "techinally" aren't enery, but something physical (plz explain) instead.
I dunno, i think it would be pointless to soak up 80% of damage done to you, or even 100% depending upon shield resists.
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Otherwise the non-stacking would work, because if a cruiser can run two vm15's, and keep them going for a while, why bother with the lvl 5's? a cap boost and shield booster will do the rest.
Course then there's the ECM issue, even jammed, you'll have to keep pounding that for a while, and who has a cruiser that doesn't have some friends able to come help in the hour it takes to kill the damn thing?
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Another thing, shield x-fers, another ship doing this could draw it out a ton, because as long as there is a tiny amount of shields, it will soak it up, unless it pierces. Person A is dying, person B warps in with very fast frigate, does a couple rounds of shield x-fer and person A now has another half hour of survival.
Bah, being able to soak up 100% or near that in damage would NOT be fun, these "tactical fights" would be slug fests and i don't think that is what people had in mind when they say they want longer fights.
Shield rechargers don't take cap remember.
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Basic truths?
Idiots make us rich.
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Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill them. |
SlightlyMad
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Posted - 2003.06.23 11:56:00 -
[33]
Ohh man...
I too many posts see only one part of the puzzle. Or only want to see one part of it
I'm going to help you a bit:
You have two factors for shipcombat (not caring about speed and other bla bla). First is damage output, second is the ability to take damage, or avoid damage. Depending on what side you reduce or enhance it will change the time for shipcombat. More favor towards damage output, less time. More favor towards ability to withstand damage, or avoid it, more combat time. This is a balance that need to be kept very carefully
The whole thing isn't about the exact numbers.
They don't matter really. I think you have to lower both of them actually, to keep down the inflation in numbers for any of the sides
I see two problems today
1, You can make a ship deal tremendous damage in a very short time. If your loadout is maxed on damage, you can blow up a standard highend cruiser in matters of 10 sec. On a battleship.. god know what kind of damage you can dish out, havn't calculated on that.
2, If you are maxed on defence, you can make yourself almost, but not totally, invulnerable, in a cruiser. In a BS, cruiserweapons wouldn't hurt you at all. Battleship wepons will probably do.
What I want to say is pretty simple.. if you start touching on side of it, you have to look over the other side of it.
Today I think both weapons and shields can be made too tough already. This is a balance issue and there is no easy ways to deal with it.. But really, if I have to choose between slant towards any side, I'd choose a slant towards the ability to take damage for a longer period of time. Tactical shields havn't hurt anyone and they will never do ;)
My personal standing, aside from the above argumentation, is that all that want to tamper with defence is probably people who like to blow up other players. I mean... "the must have" issue on tactical shields only becomes a problem when you have to occupy medslots with warpjammers and webifiers. ;)
*
-"You know, we play the "good guys" right? We kill pirates, griefers, retards and general subversive elements in the EVE-Community. To the rest, we are friendly and always prepared to help out. Peo |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.06.23 12:00:00 -
[34]
"I disagree.If a cruiser uses projectile weapons it can use 2 tac shields for quite a long time - 3-4 minutes (and that WITH activated AB's). Then your normal battle is long long over."
Yes, that's why I said balanced like in beta, not retail. Hybrids used to do superior damage at higher costs (cap and ammo) but now they do worse damage with higher costs... CCP needs to fix that to begin with, but let's not change the topic.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Shintai
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Posted - 2003.06.23 12:36:00 -
[35]
SlightlyMad, remember even 16000dmg would hardly be noticed on your battleship shields after passing the tac shields ;)
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.06.23 12:39:00 -
[36]
@SlightlyMad: Actually..no. I'm certainly no PK. (Nevermind that in a BS I could use warp jammers and Tac's together.)
I'm thinking more of the damage to gameplay. Once the usage of TAC's get's more widespread Player-Player combat will basically STOP and fighting against NPCs will become a potshot. Basically, the game will become very, very, boring.
@ Valeria: The problem is not actually the damage ratio, but that they practically don't use any energy. If I could only deal 1/2 of the damage and be invulnerable or deal the whole damage and be vulnerable I'd be rather invulnerable.
I wouldn't set the energy cost of the projectiles higher to counter that, though, the problem are the TAC's, not the projectile weapons.
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SlightlyMad
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Posted - 2003.06.23 16:02:00 -
[37]
My point is that if you can make weapons do silly damage, you have to make shields able to absorb a lot of damage too.
That indestructible thing is a missconception.. I do think they need to raise the capa drain on tac shields tho. You shouldn't be able to run two vm15 24/7 which you are almost able to do.
But.. guarding against 16k damage isn't going to happen.
The resist is like follows:
1 - (1-BASE)(1-X1)(1-X2)(1-X3) (etc)
Base is your shields basic resistance and X1,X2,X3 is whatever tac shields or mods you put on.
Now, two vm15 leaves me with some 92% thermal resist. But.. another shield isn't going to improve that much just 3% more. And then it gets even worse. I don't think tech lvl 5 things are relevant in the discussion either. They are too far away and no one knows how much has changed when they come into play.
It is a too high damage absorb, yes. But the problem isn't the damage absorbed, I think its the low capadrain which allows you to keep it up for too long.
I see as many troubles with 4 guns which are able to dish out tons of damage for as long period. Both are bad. If you only do something about one of them.. you are going to have trouble whatever you are trying to do.
What has to be done is to make the damage done relate more to capa drain done. And make tactical shields drain more capa.
Also remember some roleplaying... a cruiser is a 600 crew vessel. I really don't think you should be able to smoke one in 10 sec in a 1on1. That leaves no fun at all.
This game has too many variables to be balanced easily. You thoughts are all good even though I can't agree with some of them
remember:
Tactical shields hasn't hurt anyone yet =)
*
-"You know, we play the "good guys" right? We kill pirates, griefers, retards and general subversive elements in the EVE-Community. To the rest, we are friendly and always prepared to help out. Peo |
Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.06.23 17:12:00 -
[38]
"Tactical shields hasn't hurt anyone yet =)"
A gun has never killed anyone, too. It's the bullets which are dangerous.
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Singular
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Posted - 2003.06.23 17:51:00 -
[39]
Come on people, be a bit creative...time is not the only way to run someone out of Cap....those shield harderners need juice right?
sluuuuuuuurp.
Im Yo Huckleberreh |
Bale
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Posted - 2003.06.23 19:56:00 -
[40]
Remove stacking, or at least introduce diminshing returns.
They should have done that with the last round of nerfs, instead of practically ruining various mods.
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Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.06.23 19:59:00 -
[41]
Nosferatu: 10 energy every ~45secs.
Cruiser Cap: 1000+, BS cap 4000+
Do you really think that would be working? In a battle with a equal number of ships, that is, if you set 10 ships all eqipped with 4-5 Nos onto one with Tac's it could actually work. But, as said, numbers can beat everything.
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Falnaerith
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Posted - 2003.06.23 20:44:00 -
[42]
Nosferatu sucks, there are other ones that drain cap like ever 10 seconds. Reason nos has that long a time, it takes theirs and gives to you. If you got a straight cap drainger, much better.
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Basic truths?
Idiots make us rich.
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Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill them. |
Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.06.23 20:56:00 -
[43]
Ah, true, I forgot the energy neutralizers. With one of those you could drain a Cruiser Cap in around 1 minute and a BS's in 4 min.
But how would you avoid to be shot to pieces while you drain them? Only by using TAC's...
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Falnaerith
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Posted - 2003.06.23 20:58:00 -
[44]
Non-stacking would reduce much, compounded with a cap req, would make even the 80% bearable, instead of hour long slugfests between cruisers with cap boosters.
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Basic truths?
Idiots make us rich.
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Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill them. |
Temujin Destovai
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Posted - 2003.06.23 21:46:00 -
[45]
Dealing with tactical shields is just a matter of using the right equipment.
Everything in this game has countermeasures, including those shields, although yes, on battleships they will get pretty.. umm.. powerful.. but then again I dont know what will be scarier a scorpion with tactical shields or an apocalypse with level 4 surgical strike and tons of weapons upgrades..
The Chronicles of Xanadu |
Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.06.23 23:03:00 -
[46]
I repeat myself - what would use use against a ship with 2 TAC's...?
So far I haven't heard of one reasonable countertactics which isn't relying on superior numbers or using the same equipment.
Oh, and whats scarier: A Apocalypse with Tac's AND big weapons + upgrades.
Edited by: Ilia Volyova on 23/06/2003 23:04:47
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StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.06.24 01:38:00 -
[47]
2 apocalypses...
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Bjorn
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Posted - 2003.06.24 03:16:00 -
[48]
So uhm.. where do the tactical shields drop? Could anyone help me with this? :)
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Shintai
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Posted - 2003.06.24 07:41:00 -
[49]
multispectral tac shields drop of guritas nullifiers
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Temujin Destovai
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Posted - 2003.06.24 16:56:00 -
[50]
Well its pretty simple really, just attack his weakness. Aslong as his shields are up he cant be hurt, so get rid of them. The setup I just looked at costs me 48 cap and kills 69 of his per second. If he is using 2 Multispecs aswell he is going to be sitting there doing nothing in not time. If I know what ship im up against I can calc the time he goes down to 0 cap, and turn off any modules that arent needed to keep his cap down at 0 constantly while scrambling and webifying him. Then it just comes down to blasting him into oblivion while he cant even use his guns or shieldboosters.
In a 1vs1 battle you can take out pretty much any ship if you know what your up against beforehand. It gets a bit more complicated in teambattles but nothing in this game cannot be countered
The Chronicles of Xanadu |
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Shintai
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Posted - 2003.06.24 17:33:00 -
[51]
You forget projectile weapons again.
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.06.24 17:36:00 -
[52]
@ Temujin: That still gives a enemy cruiser 20s and a enemy BS 80s to shoot you to scrap while you cannot damage it. And if it has the right modules it can do this easily in this time.
Another thing which could counter this would be the cap boosters once you can actually use them.
@Shintai: Projectile weapons need (very little) power, too, so they should deactivate if your power is drained as well.
Edited by: Ilia Volyova on 24/06/2003 17:38:34
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Miriel Arkonis
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Posted - 2003.06.24 18:25:00 -
[53]
Just so you know (and the devs if they read this), I think that having to have 2 or 3 battleships ponding away on a battleship for 5 minutes to kill it would be a great and wonderfull thing! They are battleships! They should be nearly invulnerable and take massive concentrated firepower to kill. In my opinion if a battleship can be killed in less than a minute, even at 10 to 1 odds, then the game is unbalanced. A one-on-one fight between battleships should last 10 minutes at least and could very well end in a draw after they run out of ammo.
Having stackable tac shields is a Good Thing! (tm)
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Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.06.24 19:30:00 -
[54]
Please think this to the end. That fights should last longer is true - but achieving this with Tac's is NOT good. It looks good at the first look, but it will quickly kill the game once the use get's widespread.
Why?
1.) Because everyone must use them or be dead in 20secs.
2.) The most important thing on a ship will become it's capacitator, basically everyone will fly amarr ships...
3.) Lasers and Hybrids will basically vanish from the weapons list, because projectiles are the only weapon to go with TAC's due to their low energy requirements.
4.) And if everyone uses them your "10 minute battle" will be both sides waiting until one has run out of power (9.30 mins) and a 30 sec battle once someone hasn't the power to hold his TAC's.
Edited by: Ilia Volyova on 24/06/2003 19:33:38
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Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2003.06.24 22:07:00 -
[55]
What would be nice is not allowing more than one type of a non-weapon module on a ship. I hate the stacking.
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Temujin Destovai
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Posted - 2003.06.24 23:29:00 -
[56]
Well projectiles might or might not fire after they are drained or during it, and yes they might have a few seconds to try to kill me while being neuted, yet
#1 I also use those shields (ofc)
#2 I dont like flying alone
;)
The Chronicles of Xanadu |
SlightlyMad
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Posted - 2003.06.25 04:21:00 -
[57]
lot of noise in here....
What about medium guns doing 400 a shot?
That disrupts the game a lot too. In fact... you have to have tac shields to be able to survive.
Can't change tac unless you depower the guns a bit first.
And again, my standing argument:
Tactical shields don't hurt anyone =)
*
-"You know, we play the "good guys" right? We kill pirates, griefers, retards and general subversive elements in the EVE-Community. To the rest, we are friendly and always prepared to help out. Peo |
Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.06.25 09:24:00 -
[58]
@Temujin:
That is exactly my point - you HAVE to use those shields, otherwise you cannot survive against someone with those.
Once a piece of equipment gains that status it's seriously overpowered IMO.
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Miriel Arkonis
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Posted - 2003.06.25 17:41:00 -
[59]
 Quote:
Please think this to the end. That fights should last longer is true - but achieving this with Tac's is NOT good. It looks good at the first look, but it will quickly kill the game once the use get's widespread.
Why?
1.) Because everyone must use them or be dead in 20secs.
2.) The most important thing on a ship will become it's capacitator, basically everyone will fly amarr ships...
3.) Lasers and Hybrids will basically vanish from the weapons list, because projectiles are the only weapon to go with TAC's due to their low energy requirements.
4.) And if everyone uses them your "10 minute battle" will be both sides waiting until one has run out of power (9.30 mins) and a 30 sec battle once someone hasn't the power to hold his TAC's.
Very true, thats why weapon damage needs to be reduced.
Quote:
@Temujin:
That is exactly my point - you HAVE to use those shields, otherwise you cannot survive against someone with those.
Wrong, I can survive FOREVER against someone with Tac shields...........as long as he isn't shooting me.
Its not the shield that kills you its the GUNS.
You NEED to use TAC shields because weapon damage is so high. You can't nerf the shields without first lowering weapon damage.
Edited by: Miriel Arkonis on 25/06/2003 17:44:57
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Miriel Arkonis
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Posted - 2003.06.25 18:03:00 -
[60]
If we are STRICTLY looking at the problem in regards to higher tech level modules and saying that stacking 3 shields at 80% each is overpowered then I will agree. The problem here is not the stacking per se it is the 80%. Change the higher tech level to only +5% each and then they will be 45%, 50%, 55% and 60% at lvl 5. Stacking 3 of these would give a 0.064 modifier.
Yes, a Scorpion could achieve a rediculous number by stacking more but that is already true even at 40%, thats just the way the Scorpion is. That's a balance issue with the ship not the shields.
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