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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.04.06 18:11:00 -
[1]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 06/04/2009 18:29:46
 Originally by: wiki
A sealed first-price auction is a form of auction where bidders submit one bid in a concealed fashion. The submitted bids are then compared and the person with the highest bid wins the award, and pays the amount of his bid to the seller.
This differs from a standard English auction in that bids are not open or called; bidders must submit valuations based upon supposed market value and their own willingness to pay ù as opposed to engaging in competition through relative prices with other bidders.
In order to adapt the above to Eve, the refreshing delay for market orders which currently is around 60 seconds should be increased to a higher value (15 minute, whatever) and all existent orders (15 minutes snapshot) regarded as being volatile (pricewise and quantitywise).
Of course, this would still allow a market bot to probe the highest/lowest price offer by setting up 1 piece orders and varying the price, so all orders set up in this time interval (aside from immediate transactions which are processed based on the fixed queue provided by the last snapshot info) should be noted down and not acted upon until the 15 minutes have passed.
Now here comes the funny part.
After 15 minutes the server compares the received offers and matches the highest buy order price with the highest sell order price (but always lower) and so on from that point down until the order quantity is depleted / buy order price becomes lower than sell order price, etc.
The difference between the price of the buy order / sell order is returned to its rightful owner.
A snapshot is taken of whatever pricewise sorted orders are left and those will serve as a fixed queue for immediate transactions in the next 15 minutes.
This fixed queue will be refresed every 60 seconds.
Server received bids in 15 minutes interval:
Sell orders
1. 200 pieces @ 2000 isk
2. 300 pieces @ 1800 isk
3. 400 pieces @ 1700 isk
Buy orders:
1. 300 pieces @ 2200 isk
2. 200 pieces @ 1900 isk
3. 100 pieces @ 1400 isk
4. 500 pieces @ 1000 isk
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will lead to the following snapshot some time later
Sell orders
1. sold out @ 2000 isk per piece
2. sold out @ 1800 isk per piece
3. 400 pieces @ 1700 isk per piece
Buy orders:
1. filled (200 p @ 2000 isk pp & 100 @ 1800 isk pp)
2. filled (200 p @ 1800 isk pp)
3. 100 pieces @ 1400 isk per piece.
4. 500 pieces @ 1000 isk pp
Yes, I know it's not feasible and it will kill station trading etc etc but it won't make much difference compared to other subjects that are discussed in MD on a daily basis, so by all means, feel free to discuss. 
Black Sun Empire |
Ji Sama
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Posted - 2009.04.06 18:27:00 -
[2]
first...
nice thread.. tl:dr though...
This is a signature not related to EVE |
Fleshbot
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Posted - 2009.04.06 19:24:00 -
[3]
It is a solution. It's never going to happen*.
Also why do the buyers 'win', why do they get the better price. If I'm willing to sell at 2000 and someone is willing to buy, how come they get it at 2000 instead of me selling at 2200?
* I don't think giving players less information (or less timely information) is a sell to developers.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.04.06 19:35:00 -
[4]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 06/04/2009 19:39:13
Originally by: Fleshbot
Also why do the buyers 'win', why do they get the better price. If I'm willing to sell at 2000 and someone is willing to buy, how come they get it at 2000 instead of me selling at 2200?
* I don't think giving players less information (or less timely information) is a sell to developers.
The buyer could have set the price to 5k or even 10k pp - in order to get first place in the queue - however, there's the risk a seller will have set his sell price very close to that and receive a higher pay or that the buy order will be partially fulfilled and exposed to immediate transactions in the incoming 15 minutes due to the fixed queue.
Black Sun Empire |
flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.04.06 19:42:00 -
[5]
As i see it this means you have to make offerings every 15 minutes?
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.04.06 19:44:00 -
[6]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 06/04/2009 19:44:41
Originally by: flakeys
As i see it this means you have to make offerings every 15 minutes?
Or buy/sell immediately to whatever orders comprise the fixed queue.
Black Sun Empire |
Dzil
Caldari
Elamous Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.06 19:50:00 -
[7]
Don't try to bend the spoon: that is impossible. Instead, try to realise the truth ...
There is no spoon.
The solution to the penny isk game is to not play it. If you don't want to play penny isks, modify your orders by greater quantities. Eventually you'll force the profit margin to a point where one or the other of you don't accept it, and move on. Every attempt to solve this basically describes a way to force the profit margin to converge faster - why not just cut faster when you see you're amid competition?
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.04.06 20:07:00 -
[8]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 06/04/2009 20:16:11
Originally by: Dzil
Don't try to bend the spoon: that is impossible. Instead, try to realise the truth ...
There is no spoon.
The solution to the penny isk game is to not play it. If you don't want to play penny isks, modify your orders by greater quantities. Eventually you'll force the profit margin to a point where one or the other of you don't accept it, and move on. Every attempt to solve this basically describes a way to force the profit margin to converge faster - why not just cut faster when you see you're amid competition?
The current system does not allow sharing the soup between contenders which would be the simplest and most profitable course of action.
What I proposed solves that by promoting volatility, uncertainty and risk.
Black Sun Empire |
glas mir
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Posted - 2009.04.06 20:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dzil
modify your orders by greater quantities. Eventually you'll force the profit margin to a point where one or the other of you don't accept it, and move on. Every attempt to solve this basically describes a way to force the profit margin to converge faster - why not just cut faster when you see you're amid competition?
I agree with this. I don't often play the penny game. I make it hurt to follow me.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.04.06 22:01:00 -
[10]
It would seem that in order to sell something you'd need a distribution of orders across a price range which is not what I had in mind... oh well 
I would like to thank everyone for the participation.
Black Sun Empire |
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.04.06 23:02:00 -
[11]
I'd just like to see a system where the order you buy from is the order you buy from. It shouldn't automatically give the sale to the lowest order.
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Cukaz Nikanoru
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Posted - 2009.04.06 23:24:00 -
[12]
Awwww kahega do i hear carebear tears? You steal salvage from people in a mission and now want to cry that the person with the lowest price is making the sale and not you? awwwww..... those tears are delicious!!
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Aviditas
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Posted - 2009.04.06 23:40:00 -
[13]
Why dont we also fix scammers and gate camper 'problems' as well? Oh yes, its part of the game!! If you dont like penny isk, stay out of the market.
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Tasko Pal
THE IRIS
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.07 00:33:00 -
[14]
Since we're making suggestions, how about this?
1. Market orders get the best price.
2. Biggest book order not oldest book order gets the trade.
Not only will this fix the 0.01 problem for all time, it'll cure hangovers and improve your sex life.
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WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.07 01:25:00 -
[15]
Your solution makes no sense.
I come to a station to buy an abaddon and see:
141 m
142 m
145 m
I try to buy the 141 but its already been sold as has the 142m one. What happens to my 141 m?
Does it say sorry give me my money back and i try to buy the 142 mil only to fail again?
That would certainly get annoying if the first 20+ orders been filled and I'm getting ****ing ****ed trying to buy a ship.
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Free Trade Corp - Flash page
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Pixie Rollins
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Posted - 2009.04.07 04:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
I'd just like to see a system where the order you buy from is the order you buy from. It shouldn't automatically give the sale to the lowest order.
The system that CCP uses now simulates a clearing house, in which you have no control on the identity of your counter-party. Instead, the clearing house matches the you with the lowest buy order in order to maximize economic gain.
About the 0.01 isk game. I realize it frustrate traders. But i think its the lesser evil and all the suggestions to correct this (that I have seen) were fataly flawed.
Sometimes traders forget that the market exists not them to make money but to help producers and consumers transact.
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Professor Jinmei
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Posted - 2009.04.07 05:01:00 -
[17]
BROKER FEE & SALES TAX
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.04.07 08:06:00 -
[18]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 07/04/2009 08:14:47
Originally by: WarlockX
Your solution makes no sense.
I come to a station to buy an abaddon and see:
141 m
142 m
145 m
I try to buy the 141 but its already been sold as has the 142m one. What happens to my 141 m?
Does it say sorry give me my money back and i try to buy the 142 mil only to fail again?
That would certainly get annoying if the first 20+ orders been filled and I'm getting ****ing ****ed trying to buy a ship.
What you see as available is available for immediate transactions as part of a fixed queue (prior bids being processed and the result (partially filled/sold orders) being price sorted and locked, any other bids placed after that moment will be held for the next processing which will occur after 15 minutes).
The 15 minutes fixed queue would operate based on the same refreshing mechanism as the present market system (I said 60 seconds but it might just as well refresh after each immediate transaction).
Black Sun Empire |
b1zz
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Posted - 2009.04.07 09:19:00 -
[19]
Guys, .01 is your friend. The only people it screws over are the consumers. What you're really proposing here is for the ability to shoot yourself in the foot repeatedly.
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Dzil
Caldari
Elamous Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.07 16:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: YouGotRipped
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 06/04/2009 20:16:11
The current system does not allow sharing the soup between contenders which would be the simplest and most profitable course of action.
What I proposed solves that by promoting volatility, uncertainty and risk.
That's kinda how EVE works ;) Cooperative marketers might collude on a common price, or let one guy sell for both and split the profits. Contenders won't share a market position on a specific item any more than contending alliances would share a moon - no matter what kind of hidden bid system is put into play they will cut each other's throats until one gets tired of bleeding.
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Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2009.04.08 04:10:00 -
[21]
Originally by: b1zz
Guys, .01 is your friend. The only people it screws over are the consumers. What you're really proposing here is for the ability to shoot yourself in the foot repeatedly.
Yep. Undercutting by huge amounts hurts all producers and traders. It's pointless because most people are too lazy to take the stuff off the market, and would rather just take the loss and undercut by .01 again. I've seen this play out for years.
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Originally by: CCP Whisper
Deal with it.
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b1zz
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Posted - 2009.04.08 16:07:00 -
[22]
That's not what I meant. Your big undercutter/outbidder couldn't care less who it's hurting as long as it's not hurting him, and presumably it's not unless he's the type who likes to stick forks in his eye. This is cut-throat pvp here and he has no obligation to protect the 'community of traders', lol.
The .01 may allow anyone to undercut/outbid you at any time, but it also gives you the ability to do the same thing on any item on the market at any time. This gives all of us a lot of freedom to enter and exit the market as we please. If you're trying to set-up a self-sustainable low maintenance trading empire (aren't we all) there are ways to do this that don't include changing the rules.
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Nicola Sardonicus
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Posted - 2009.04.20 01:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Cukaz Nikanoru
Awwww kahega do i hear carebear tears? You steal salvage from people in a mission and now want to cry that the person with the lowest price is making the sale and not you? awwwww..... those tears are delicious!!
An ad hominem attack is not a counter-argument, but the display of a lack of one. (Besides, you can't "steal" salvage, it's fair game for all players. You might want to learn the rules of the game if you're going to play it.)
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War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength. |
Linia
Gallente
Linia Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.20 15:19:00 -
[24]
What is this market bot you refer to?
I'd like one to auto re-down my orders by the 0.01 isk every 5 minutes 
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Robacz
Essence Trade
Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.04.20 18:37:00 -
[25]
Why trying to fix something that is not broken? If market bots really exist (there is still no solid proof, their existence would make sense, but considering how many sites sell miner bots and none market bots, I still have doubts, besides, my alts got called bots in numerous angry eve-mails just because of few hours of updating sprees  ), just report them or let CCP to deal with them.
There is no need to nerf market for everyone because of few cheaters. Unless, of course, the real reason behind this nerf is your inability to compete with traders who spend more time with their orders and beat you in the 0.01 cutting game.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.04.20 18:57:00 -
[26]
Damn it, just when I thought I was going to get away with it.
Black Sun Empire |
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