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4 LOM
United Gamers
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Posted - 2009.04.10 18:03:00 -
[1]
I was just thinking, if you are new and for your first 1.6M sp you train at double speed, wont it be a horrible kick in the nutz the day you log on and your training speed is cut in half for no logical reason at all?
Sure you might retain some people a little longer with the double training speed, but my gut feeling is 1.6M is going to be where alot of people quit, people who might not have quit if they never had the boost in the first place.
The loss of theoretical gain often is far worse then actuall loss. (this has been proven many times)
(i thought the double training was a brilliant idea until i looked at it closer and more logicaly)
 Originally by: Twilight Moon
of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner. 
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Vlanc
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Posted - 2009.04.10 18:41:00 -
[2]
Yes, I think you are somewhat right in that it will come as a shocker when they start training at half the speed they used to, but I still thing the idea of quicker training time for new players is a good one.
This is why I propose (not my idea) that training time speed is slowly ramped down until 5 or 10 million skillpoints. Possibly double speed until 2 million, then every mil after that you lose 20% speed or so.
It would certainly help the "I'm new and therefore helpless" feeling that most new pod pilots feel when realizing how far behind they are from vets. At least it would allow them to be able to pilot one ship and be good at it by the time training time is back to normal. I don't think that's too far out in left field.
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Setora Bak
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Posted - 2009.04.10 20:44:00 -
[3]
As someone that just recently started playing EVE (I've played lots of other MMOs going back to UO), the one major hang-up I'm currently having with the game is how long it takes to develop a character and how far behind the curve I am as a new player. I've spoken with other people that have tried EVE and felt the same way. Some really liked the game, but were just overwhelmed with how long it takes. Getting rid of the training speed bonus would only exasperate the problem.
Doing away with 'grinding' is nice to a point, but I think EVE takes that a bit too far. At least, at this juncture in the game. One suggestion I'd offer is a way to buy 'skill boosts' up to a certain skill level using LP. In a way that's similar to grinding, but it would be more of an incentive than a necessity.
I think Vlanc's suggestion is a good one as well.
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4 LOM
United Gamers
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Posted - 2009.04.10 21:18:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Vlanc
Yes, I think you are somewhat right in that it will come as a shocker when they start training at half the speed they used to, but I still thing the idea of quicker training time for new players is a good one.
This is why I propose (not my idea) that training time speed is slowly ramped down until 5 or 10 million skillpoints. Possibly double speed until 2 million, then every mil after that you lose 20% speed or so.
It would certainly help the "I'm new and therefore helpless" feeling that most new pod pilots feel when realizing how far behind they are from vets. At least it would allow them to be able to pilot one ship and be good at it by the time training time is back to normal. I don't think that's too far out in left field.
I never thought of this.... and i think its how the faster training should have been implimented (maybe not to 10M)
CCP VLanc is onto something, you should think about it
Originally by: Twilight Moon
of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
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Lukriss
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Posted - 2009.04.10 23:50:00 -
[5]
originally it was the plan that the speed should decrease slowly, but they changed it.
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Ami Nia
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.04.11 00:40:00 -
[6]
Using LP would be a very very bad idea. Missioning is one of several hundred playstyles of EvE. I play 8 characters and only one of them has ever had LPs (I think she did a couple dozen missions).
I've been thinking of actually starting/buying a missioneer, but I would not have much time to play it so I just don't.
Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers.
-- Sheriff Jones
apochribba
-- Aurora Morgan
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Agdistisar Regus
Republic University
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Posted - 2009.04.11 11:50:00 -
[7]
I love the training mechanics as they are. As a new player competing in a world of lots of more experiences players you are forced to specialise early (not really a bad thing) just means you have to be a bit more careful with your choices.
On the other hand the 100% bonus means that I can get friends to create noobie characters, give them a few mil and they can be flying pvp rifters within 5 hours :D
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Setora Bak
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Posted - 2009.04.11 15:49:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Setora Bak on 11/04/2009 15:49:41
Edited by: Setora Bak on 11/04/2009 15:49:08
Originally by: Ami Nia
Using LP would be a very very bad idea. Missioning is one of several hundred playstyles of EvE. I play 8 characters and only one of them has ever had LPs (I think she did a couple dozen missions).
I've been thinking of actually starting/buying a missioneer, but I would not have much time to play it so I just don't.
Well, I was talking about something to help retain new players, not something to help people that have been playing for a while make more characters. I could be wrong, but I'd imagine most new players start doing missions, because it's easy and they don't know what else to do. Making them LP based would reward the person for playing (that toon), but if you made them ISK based people could just transfer ISK from one toon to another, defeating the whole purpose.
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wowtard
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Posted - 2009.04.12 01:46:00 -
[9]
What, no five year veterans chiming in yet about how they started with minus ten zillion skill points and no bonuses of any sort? Slow day on the forums?
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Meshugga Devlar
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Posted - 2009.04.12 16:39:00 -
[10]
As a new player I just passed 1 million skill points and I am really dreading what will happen when I hit 1.6 million. I'm trying to specialize as a miner and trying to get up to a hulk. Thats going to take a long, long time.
One problem i have with eve is that, at least as a miner, it's not a game you can sit down and build up your character like traditional MMOs. I'm sure some people like that but it's really frustrating when I have to wait 4 days for a skill so that I can use a real mining ship (retriever). I wish there was a way that, even on a very small scale, I could do something to earn extra skill points. Like mining with a mining barge could slowly reward me with skill points or turning in minerals would.
I know, i know, it's not the way eve works. But it would be nice if I played some part in my characters advancement other than planning and letting time do it's work. Gets kind of boring.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.12 16:46:00 -
[11]
Pretty soon you'll think of a 4-day skill as "annoyingly short".
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4 LOM
United Gamers
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Posted - 2009.04.12 17:00:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Meshugga Devlar
As a new player I just passed 1 million skill points and I am really dreading what will happen when I hit 1.6 million. I'm trying to specialize as a miner and trying to get up to a hulk. Thats going to take a long, long time.
One problem i have with eve is that, at least as a miner, it's not a game you can sit down and build up your character like traditional MMOs. I'm sure some people like that but it's really frustrating when I have to wait 4 days for a skill so that I can use a real mining ship (retriever). I wish there was a way that, even on a very small scale, I could do something to earn extra skill points. Like mining with a mining barge could slowly reward me with skill points or turning in minerals would.
I know, i know, it's not the way eve works. But it would be nice if I played some part in my characters advancement other than planning and letting time do it's work. Gets kind of boring.
You may feel like that now, but when you are to busy to play for a month, you will change your mind on how you feel... as you will nock of skill so fast without actually having to have the time to play...
Originally by: Twilight Moon
of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
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Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.04.12 17:03:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Malcanis
Pretty soon you'll think of a 4-day skill as "annoyingly short".
^^^ This
I look forward to my 30 day skills as I don't have to worry about them.
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Vlanc
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.12 20:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Meshugga Devlar
As a new player I just passed 1 million skill points and I am really dreading what will happen when I hit 1.6 million. I'm trying to specialize as a miner and trying to get up to a hulk. Thats going to take a long, long time.
One problem i have with eve is that, at least as a miner, it's not a game you can sit down and build up your character like traditional MMOs. I'm sure some people like that but it's really frustrating when I have to wait 4 days for a skill so that I can use a real mining ship (retriever). I wish there was a way that, even on a very small scale, I could do something to earn extra skill points. Like mining with a mining barge could slowly reward me with skill points or turning in minerals would.
I know, i know, it's not the way eve works. But it would be nice if I played some part in my characters advancement other than planning and letting time do it's work. Gets kind of boring.
Be sure to set Astrogeology V or Mining Barge V right before you hit 1.6 mil sps!
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Kano Axon
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Posted - 2009.04.13 09:27:00 -
[15]
The way in which you plan your training will effect the total training time, so you can in effect have some control over your training through correct planing.
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Alsione Ailermane
Amarr
Relentless Storm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.04.13 19:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Meshugga Devlar
As a new player I just passed 1 million skill points and I am really dreading what will happen when I hit 1.6 million. I'm trying to specialize as a miner and trying to get up to a hulk. Thats going to take a long, long time.
One problem i have with eve is that, at least as a miner, it's not a game you can sit down and build up your character like traditional MMOs. I'm sure some people like that but it's really frustrating when I have to wait 4 days for a skill so that I can use a real mining ship (retriever). I wish there was a way that, even on a very small scale, I could do something to earn extra skill points. Like mining with a mining barge could slowly reward me with skill points or turning in minerals would.
I know, i know, it's not the way eve works. But it would be nice if I played some part in my characters advancement other than planning and letting time do it's work. Gets kind of boring.
Heh, I'm a miner and kinda know how you feel. If the 4 day skill is hard on you, then give up on the Hulk. You have two 25 day skills ahead of you, plus the time to just GET to train those skills.
I'm working my way to a Roqual....
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Linia
Gallente
Linia Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.13 19:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Alsione Ailermane
Heh, I'm a miner and kinda know how you feel. If the 4 day skill is hard on you, then give up on the Hulk. You have two 25 day skills ahead of you, plus the time to just GET to train those skills.
I'm working my way to a Roqual....
Yep all those long skills is.. really.. patience training to the max 
But atleast it allows you to have a life in between so you dont need to say
"I must play to pogress!"
In EVE you progress by waiting
.. Oh wait, is that good? 
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Nefrin Maldoes
Minmatar
Outer Rim Survey and Salvage
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Posted - 2009.04.13 23:23:00 -
[18]
Originally by: wowtard
What, no five year veterans chiming in yet about how they started with minus ten zillion skill points and no bonuses of any sort? Slow day on the forums?
Only a 4.5 year vet here, but the gist is the same.
I sometimes wish I only had 4 day skills to train. I remember the beginnings when I could knock out a whole bunch of skills in one play session, and get them up another level with over night training. Now I'm pretty much stuck on 15+ skills as I bring my character into yet another specilized field.
That being said, use those 4 days you have to wait to your advantage. You can still find ways to make isk while you are waiting on your retriever. Research further skills down the line that you want and figure out what skills you'll need and how much they cost. Heck, take that mining cruiser or frigate you are using and go get blown up in lowsec for some fun, you'll have a retriever soon anyways, what does it matter?
Think of the training times as chance to learn the mechanics of the game.
Originally by: Horza Otho
I'd like a sig of raptorjesus in a panzor tank falcon punching a mashup of Obama and Bush into a blackhole that turns out to be hillary clintons bunghole.
Serious.
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Mohenna
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Posted - 2009.04.14 12:34:00 -
[19]
I forecast a rain of curses when the posters discover that there are plenty of charisma 3 characters skilling around...
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.04.14 12:54:00 -
[20]
Originally by: 4 LOM
I was just thinking, if you are new and for your first 1.6M sp you train at double speed, wont it be a horrible kick in the nutz the day you log on and your training speed is cut in half for no logical reason at all?
Sure you might retain some people a little longer with the double training speed, but my gut feeling is 1.6M is going to be where alot of people quit, people who might not have quit if they never had the boost in the first place.
The loss of theoretical gain often is far worse then actuall loss. (this has been proven many times)
(i thought the double training was a brilliant idea until i looked at it closer and more logicaly)
Logically then we should give new players a 50% training rate for the first month. Then they'll "feel" awesome when their training speed doubles!
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Cipher7
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Posted - 2009.04.14 14:09:00 -
[21]
The new system is great. When you hit 1.5 mil SP, start training for BS 5 or some other 30 day+ skill.
To me the training times are attractive because it filters out the kiddies.
1 day skills are just bloody annoying, because sometimes I can't login every day.
---
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Vellen Thoss
Gallente
Stellar Research Incorporated
DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2009.04.15 22:12:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Cipher7
The new system is great. When you hit 1.5 mil SP, start training for BS 5 or some other 30 day+ skill.
To me the training times are attractive because it filters out the kiddies.
1 day skills are just bloody annoying, because sometimes I can't login every day.
Yep, Im at the point where a 4 or 5 day skill is short and 2 week skills are now the norm.
I have two 22 day skills coming up, and Im not even looking at them as very long.
Mind you, I have a 2003 character that I never really did anything with, but I did appreciate how little you started out with then, and I came back into this game with Vellen in 2007 fully knowing the learning curve.
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Onus Mian
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.04.15 22:20:00 -
[23]
On the other hand how many players would quite when it would take twice as long to get their core and learning skills?
----
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
- Douglas Adams
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Illami
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Posted - 2009.04.16 12:15:00 -
[24]
I have just come back to this game after a long break (4)years, I found the new skill system to be very newbie freindly.
I still remember trying the older system where you had to know roughly what you wanted to play, this new system in that way is alot better, But I do miss the 500k+ SP you got from the old system from knowing what you wanted to be.
But 1.6mil SP bonus is not that much when getting the learning skills to optimised level is a fair wack of them. And QQ there still no alt training allowed on one account 
But yes, Im not looking forward to going back to "normal" training speed, Just hope my retreiver skills are ok cuz im near 1.6mil sp now and I still got to get astro to level 4 and rank 3 on mining barges, its gonna be close.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.04.16 12:49:00 -
[25]
NO!
It wont hurt retention.
Yes people wont like it when threy drop to 100% and that mmight lead a few to quit.
But before people quit because they had weak characters and sucky skills - so in the big picture less people quit.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Foulque
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Posted - 2009.04.16 13:30:00 -
[26]
Whether you get double speed to 1.6M or start with 800k SP, I still think it's learning skills that ave a bigger impact on new player retention.
Remove adv learnings and give a SP bonus to those who have trained them. Those early weeks would be a lot more fun with a lot more visible prgression while still not hurting old players.
________
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Morkur
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Posted - 2009.04.16 14:33:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Cipher7
The new system is great. When you hit 1.5 mil SP, start training for BS 5 or some other 30 day+ skill.
To me the training times are attractive because it filters out the kiddies.
1 day skills are just bloody annoying, because sometimes I can't login every day.
"A change has been made to the client and server skill point gain calculations for rookie pilots below the 1.6 million skill point threshold. Skill point increase per minute is now based on the total skill points you will have after completing the skill, instead of your total skill points. This effectively means that skill point gain will be calculated properly when crossing a bonus boundary. This means that adding a skill, which has 756,000 skill points when you are on the threshold (i.e. 1,590.000), will not benefit from the double skill training bonus and will be trained at normal speed."
Noooo...I'm soon at that breaking point and was so looking forward to that because I feel so far away from more experienced players, now even more so.
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Aethrwolf
Caldari
Home for Wayward Gamers
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Posted - 2009.04.16 15:03:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Morkur
Originally by: Cipher7
The new system is great. When you hit 1.5 mil SP, start training for BS 5 or some other 30 day+ skill.
To me the training times are attractive because it filters out the kiddies.
1 day skills are just bloody annoying, because sometimes I can't login every day.
"A change has been made to the client and server skill point gain calculations for rookie pilots below the 1.6 million skill point threshold. Skill point increase per minute is now based on the total skill points you will have after completing the skill, instead of your total skill points. This effectively means that skill point gain will be calculated properly when crossing a bonus boundary. This means that adding a skill, which has 756,000 skill points when you are on the threshold (i.e. 1,590.000), will not benefit from the double skill training bonus and will be trained at normal speed."
Noooo...I'm soon at that breaking point and was so looking forward to that because I feel so far away from more experienced players, now even more so.
yeah, this "fix" means that now I have to find some cheap skills that I was gonna wait on for my alt so I dont "waste" training bonus when i get close to 1.6 mil sp. I think an easier method would be to make chars under 30 days old train skills at 1 rank lower than the skill's actual rank. Just add a timer to new toons that pauses and re-applies the queue at the 30 day mark to reset the skills to their normal rank. heck that timer would work well for the 1.6 mil mark, too, so we dont have to do an obscene amount of skill juggling to get the most out of the training bonus.
Absolutely everything is subjective. |
Stuman Chu
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Posted - 2009.04.16 15:04:00 -
[29]
I am a new person to the game my first toon I messed up on and created another to do the points over.
I was so over the place I could mine ok but my fighting skills were poor had no weapon ability. With the skill speed and Evemon I set a decent plan where I can be a decent pilot and then when my 1.6 kicks in I wont be hindered.
The man visited by ecstasies and visions, who takes dreams for realities is an enthusiast; the man who supports his madness with murder is a fanatic.
-Voltaire
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Trindra
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Posted - 2009.04.16 16:16:00 -
[30]
The way I see it, They turned this whole 1.6mill Double time into a bit of a newbie trap.
I have 20mill SP now and this was my first pilot and I remember how crazy bananas my skills where/are. Starting at 800k sp was nice but knowing what I know now I think the new system would be fun to "abuse" with an alt. One thing to note is that the standard learning skill package is just over 1mill SP so building a pilot "correctly" can bite you in the ass slightly once that 1.6 mark comes up.
Personally I think the smart thing to do is train up an old starting skill lineup minus the useless stuff and use the extra 800k sp past the base 800k sp to get some fun stuff, then when the 1.6 mark hits train learning skills into the 4's
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Deej Montana
Caldari
Outbound Flight
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Posted - 2009.04.16 16:39:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Agdistisar Regus
I love the training mechanics as they are. As a new player competing in a world of lots of more experiences players you are forced to specialise early (not really a bad thing) just means you have to be a bit more careful with your choices.
On the other hand the 100% bonus means that I can get friends to create noobie characters, give them a few mil and they can be flying pvp rifters within 5 hours :D
I hear this specialization argument all the time and I still don't buy it for one simple reason; as a new player you have NO CLUE what you might want to specialize in. Even if you're in a corp with experienced people to give you tips, what worked for them or what they like doing may not appeal to you.
When I first started I thought mining would be a good deal so I trained a lot of those skills. Got up to a Hulk and decided meh. Started training advanced gunnery, missile and drone skills to give missions a try. Now, I'm getting a bit tired of running L4s with a CNR and will do more manufacturing which means I'll need to train the Science stuff....I hope you see the trend here.
The only thing that let me bounce around like this is the fact that I DIDN'T specialize. I got a lot of learning skills and support skills down first. Thankfully I read these forums and asked around. A lot of people don't. And many that do take the specialist route and after they get some time in game decide that what they trained for doesn't really suit them and it's back to square one. |
Elric Redeye
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Posted - 2009.04.16 21:12:00 -
[32]
I would have appreciated a slow ramp-up speed or else being able to choose when to start my doubled speed run. It took me a week or longer to wrap my head around the whole skill system. I would have preferred to have my accelerated training on a better-defined path, something that now matters to me, than typical noob rambling.
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DualToxic
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.04.16 21:17:00 -
[33]
I actually have a similar problem to be honest.
I brought the game on April 4th 2009, since then I wanted to do PvP, so using some advice from the default Corporation I started leveling my ship skills and weapon skills to build upto a Maller / Omen.
However ISK was hard to come by, and then I was advised to go mining. So I trained up 'support' skills so I can get mining drones and lasers on the Omen, which fares well. However this playstyle doesn't appeal to me all the time only when I am in a lazy mood.
Along with the corporation skills for my project New Eden Recruitment Agency. I am now almost after 2 weeks, approacing the 750k SkillPoint mark.
Meaning in the next 2 weeks (before I reach the 1.5mill mark) I need to decide what I want to do for the rest of my eve career, as the insanely long queue times I will face mean if I want to be successful at something and even the slightest chance of competiting against others in whatever field I choose I need to be specialised or I might as well not bother.
--
What would be nice is if it was changed slightly for ALL characters.
50k - 1mil = 100% bonus
1mil - 2mil = 75% bonus
2mil - 3mil = 50% bonus
4mil - 5mil = 25% bonus
5mil + = 0% bonus
This would allow new characters / players to dabble in all fields to a degree, without punishing them too much for wrong choices at the start, and would allow them to adapt months/years down the line without using up months of playtime to just try something else.
--
On top of that CCP could offer a PLEX like system but for implants, for a monthly subscription equivilent fee people can buy an implant that fits in slot X which increases learning time for 30days by 100%
Now I know what alot of you will say, how is it fair players are now able to buy ways to speed up training, we didn't have it when I started.. well the answer is the same as PLEX, you didn't have that opportunity to get free playtime for ingame currency either?
Or how is it fair that people can buy ways to increase their training speed, I can't afford it, it isn't fair. well it be the same system as plex, you beable to buy them ingame for ISK also so same as PLEX.
Also whats the difference between someone buying a 2year old character for like 7.5billion ISK (at current PLEX rates is 23months worth of plex) and someone buying a 100% training time implant for months on end?
None in my opinion, just one gets a new character with a name they dont like INSTANTLY, and the other keeps the name they like, and spend 12months instead of 23months to catch up)
--
Hopefully all of that made sense
DualToxic's - Biography - Ingame Browser Friendly
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.04.16 22:14:00 -
[34]
There are plenty of skills that you can train pretty much regardless of specialisation. Eg:
(1) Learning skills
(2) Capacitor skills (and various other engineering skills)
(3) Navigation skills
(4) Fitting skills
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Necromalis
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:46:00 -
[35]
Sadly, this is anthoer side of eve we all hate / dread. Mistakes in your skill training, oh yes. Eve, it's evil, it's horrible, it hates you. Its 100% fair and balanced, heck man, i found i enjoy amarr ships more then caldari, but I started being a mission runner all the time, then BAM my first venture into low-sec. enuff said. You train, your learn, you move on, you keep going.
As for the double-speed, it pretty much is giving you enough room to try with 3 character slots to just jump around until you've found what you wanted to do.
I don't know I'm only nine months, and I enjoy new people. :) frigate tacklers = win.
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Badmin
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Posted - 2009.04.19 10:18:00 -
[36]
Here is a wakeup call.
This was taken into account before the T3 skills came out. It is now much longer.
"To get level 5 in all 366 skills would require 411,648,000 skill points (SP). "- Evemag
Well, assuming that figure rounds to about 411 Million SP you divide that by an average of 2500 sp per hour.
164,400 hours
or
6850 24 hour days
or
19 Years 1 Month 1 Day and 9 Hours.
Worth of training time (with perfect skills / +5's)
This is to get Lvl 5 in ALL skills currently in Eve.
Start Training.
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.04.20 09:25:00 -
[37]
Obligatoric whine:
We had no more than 50k SP in the beginning, why should you?
Ok back to topic, I think op has a point, BUT Eve is no newbie friendly game per se. 1.6m SP takes a month [?] now so that enough time to get accustomized with the game aks around etc. So the normal, staying, EvE member will have figured out what to train and that his rate will decrease eventually. So the people we want to stay in EVE, the intelligent ones ^^, will stay anyway. Some of them would be better of to start a new character though after they got accustomed and got to know to train learning skills with some of the 1.6m etc.
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