Question is what is too short/long. We went from DT centric 2-3 day captures, straight to 5-7 hrs semi-DT centric captures .. which means we have already experienced the extremes of what it might/could/should be.

If one is perpetually outgunned/outmanned then one should not be able to take space but merely be able to hold onto a few scraps (read: key systems). Makes sense both in real world and gameplay terms .. the Rambo films were decent enough but make for horrible mechanics
Note: This is probably the main reason why a majority are against the lock-out consequence as the end result from at least one militia (not naming names) will be in high-sec within 6-8 weeks of it going live regardless of x5 modifier..

The x5 modifier they are operating with now was most likely added because CCP really dislikes having to say "We made a whoopsie" and that is what the "3 plex/hour, 23/7" is in plex mechanics.

What they should try is to come up with a way of making plex spawning player controlled. Addresses your concern about underdogs not being able to make headway before the blob logs on and would be a way to get rid of the DT shuffle once and for all.
The underlying system is already in place (more or less) in that mission plexes are spawned by player action so all that is needed is an additional layer that directs the spawn algorithm .. we have seen the brute force method back when declining FW missions didn't result in penalties.

time zone war counter.
deal with it.

flipping a system / station in 48 hours sounds to short imo.
Null sec is more or less a week I believe.

Came here expecting a poor thread about how FW is ruined now, found an actual valid idea and discussion. Cool.

Something that you ought to consider is that the really long flip times (along with reinforce timers and all that jazz) was implemented in nullsec to nerf timezone wars. If there were very short cycle times (a few hours), FW space would resolve to constant hand-swapping of systems. The Minmatar have the numeric advantage in late USTZ and capture a whole constellation; DT rolls around and the Amarr have the numeric advantage, flipping everything back over. Strong plexing movements are responded to with apathy because "eh, we can just flip it back in a few hours".

The good part of this is that it does encourage constant plexing, and for people for whom the immediate sovereignty of a system matters, this will trigger response fleets and thus fights.

There needs to be a balance reached in flip time, however. Too short, and it becomes a trivial chore to gain control of a system. Too long, and as you said, FW gets stale with blobs.

I'm interested in what some of the larget FW entities who can field big fleets (like LNA) think about this. Is this simply a matter of small gangs wanting a buff, or something all of FW can get behind?

And yes, shorter flip times would mean more fun for us and our band of crazy frigates, plus more chance to defend our home system. +1 set of players who would likely benefit from this change.

The key point here is the shorter the time it takes to flip a system, the more trivial plexing becomes. We had a massive fleet fight on the Huola bunker a month or so ago, it was a blast, we held the field, but the Amarr flipped the system anyways with numbers. After DT we quickly flipped the system back rendering the previous day's work completely moot. After we lost Huola, not a single one of us was down because we knew we could quickly flip it again anyways. We just showed up for the pew

Change;
- Introduce poison-pills to all mission plexes (just because, and needed for ..)
- Remove any and all automatically spawning plexes, replace with player generated sites (has pills, remember? )
- Introduce useful strategic feedback in militia interface (ie. systems under attack messages)
Result;
- Attacker can't park a blob in a central location and have satellite crews capping plexes in adjacent systems because by the time they arrive the plex is gone.
- Ninja plexing is obsoleted, and
- Time spent becomes equivalent of benefit (zero LP for defender, so zero time).

..I can assure you, if the Amarr had the upper-hand in the warzone, they would not be complaining..

The key point here is the shorter the time it takes to flip a system, the more trivial plexing becomes. We had a massive fleet fight on the Huola bunker a month or so ago, it was a blast, we held the field, but the Amarr flipped the system anyways with numbers. After DT we quickly flipped the system back rendering the previous day's work completely moot. After we lost Huola, not a single one of us was down because we knew we could quickly flip it again anyways. We just showed up for the pew

Just re-read your post Cea .. one hour flips .. really .. read it as "old schema" before


Pardon? Take a timemachine (read: use search engine) and look at everything I have complained about the past 3-4 years in regards to FW .. it has been quite a lot, and since Amarr has had the "upper-hand" for considerably longer when tallied your assurances are as useless as your desire for freedom.

C'est la EVE.

I'm going to go ahead and steal that expression since it's awesome. Kudos.

Question is what is too short/long. We went from DT centric 2-3 day captures, straight to 5-7 hrs semi-DT centric captures .. which means we have already experienced the extremes of what it might/could/should be.

If one is perpetually outgunned/outmanned then one should not be able to take space but merely be able to hold onto a few scraps (read: key systems). Makes sense both in real world and gameplay terms .. the Rambo films were decent enough but make for horrible mechanics
Note: This is probably the main reason why a majority are against the lock-out consequence as the end result from at least one militia (not naming names) will be in high-sec within 6-8 weeks of it going live regardless of x5 modifier.

The x5 modifier they are operating with now was most likely added because CCP really dislikes having to say "We made a whoopsie" and that is what the "3 plex/hour, 23/7" is in plex mechanics.

What they should try is to come up with a way of making plex spawning player controlled. Addresses your concern about underdogs not being able to make headway before the blob logs on and would be a way to get rid of the DT shuffle once and for all.
The underlying system is already in place (more or less) in that mission plexes are spawned by player action so all that is needed is an additional layer that directs the spawn algorithm .. we have seen the brute force method back when declining FW missions didn't result in penalties.

Basically what other people have said.

Station lockouts and LP upgrades are justifications for system occupancy we've all wanted for years but if people know that their home system can be flipped in an 8 (or less) hour stretch during their off-TZ when the numbers aren't there for a meaningful defence then there's no real incentive to spend any LP upgrading the system..

On the other hand, month long campaigns fighting over a single system are draining for both sides and eventually cease to be fun. Increasing the frequency of spawns and removing the dependance on DT for plexing was a good idea overall but IMO it's now *too* short. Tweaking it so that no matter what it'll be more than 24 hours is good, that way if you want to rob a system out from under its residents they will actually have a say in the matter, rather than sneakily flipping it in the night while they're asleep to avoid fighting them.

time zone war counter.
deal with it.

flipping a system / station in 48 hours sounds to short imo.
Null sec is more or less a week I believe.

Here is another proposal that I think would be worth considering:

You can't dock and access the station in an enemy system that is not contested. Once a system is contested though the docking and station services would be open to both sides.

So by doing a single plex side on the offensive would unlock their ships and docking rights and services in that system. Thus allowing them to continue an ongoing fight. The defending side would be urged to quickly react and decontest the system so the offensive side would be locked out again.

This. Mother of god, this, please CCP.

Basically what other people have said.

Station lockouts and LP upgrades are justifications for system occupancy we've all wanted for years but if people know that their home system can be flipped in an 8 (or less) hour stretch during their off-TZ when the numbers aren't there for a meaningful defence then there's no real incentive to spend any LP upgrading the system.

On the other hand, month long campaigns fighting over a single system are draining for both sides and eventually cease to be fun. Increasing the frequency of spawns and removing the dependance on DT for plexing was a good idea overall but IMO it's now *too* short. Tweaking it so that no matter what it'll be more than 24 hours is good, that way if you want to rob a system out from under its residents they will actually have a say in the matter, rather than sneakily flipping it in the night while they're asleep to avoid fighting them.

Just throwing my half-read-thread 0.02 ISK into this.

I personally think the longer flip times are great. I get what the OP is saying in regards to small gang or solo flipping, as your actions won't be immediately beneficial to your faction alone. However, couple that with the other additions which make FW more null-sov-like, such as system upgrades and station lock-outs, and I think the argument by itself stands to state that the longer flip times are only beneficial.

While they haven't done it yet, from what I can tell anyway, later on down the road as the new FW mechanic fleshes out, they may include different selectable upgrades besides the ones they're giving now (NPC's at gates, cheaper clone costs, etc), such as grav site spawn upgrades, wh spawn upgrades, among many other things that you only find in null that would boost industry and REALLY give you a good reason to fight in FW. If I personally, as a corp, put in LP to upgrade a system with such upgrades so my miners can mine better gravs, build more ships, and improve our commerce as a corporation, you can bet your arse I want to fight to protect that system/systems. A 1 hour, 5-7 hour, or even a 12 hour flip time is of no use to me, as all that hard work to flip the system in the first place and then upgrade it goes to waste.

Now granted my argument is on a very small scale and only really encompasses my corp personally, but the point is still there. Any upgrades to any systems benefits everyone in the faction. It would even benefit non-FW corps. That being said, I would rather the work to upgrade system be safeguarded from fast flips and instead be drawn out over time. I think 40 hours is acceptable.

Again, I apologize if I'm restating someone elses point. I got excited at the bottom of page 1 and felt the need to throw my coins in.