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Jecasta Silesta
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Posted - 2009.04.15 21:03:00 -
[1]
I want to start by making it quite clear that the Jag is a far superior ship to the Rifter, this is not in dispute.
However... The Jag is selling at 25mil per hull and costing between 35mil and 40mil per loss with T2 fittings in my region. (and thats with no rigs fitted!).
So my real question is if you spent between 35mil and 40mil (or less) on Rigs and cheaper faction fittings and put them on a 0.5mil Rifter hull how would it stack up against the Jag without Rigs at least in so far as a solo 0.0 PvP ship is concerned?
I tryed out this concept and bagged myself 2 x Rannis Kills, 1 x Crow, 1 x Jag, and wone in a fight against three (Low XP) interceptors at the same time. (has gotten me 25 mil in mods and ransoms so far) but I have lost one to an exit gate camp using a HIC and a Rapier.
My fitting is as follows,
3 x 150mm T2 AC ,Heatsink. 1 x B-type Small AB , 1x Med Extender T2, 1x Scram T2 1 x Best named DC, 1x OD T2, 1x Gryo T2
2x Sheild Hardner Rigs
Total Cost Per loss = 30mil
The biggest advantage is that you always get a fight in this thing. Actually I think I get three times the number of fights as I would if I had used a Jag no one fears a T1 frig. |
Mortuus
Minmatar Kouncel
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Posted - 2009.04.15 21:49:00 -
[2]
Well, vs a decent AF pilot it would still lose, however, most people are terrible at this game. The fact that it is a t1 frigate means most will simply rush into scram range, where you have an advantage due to the AB.
All in all it works, but for 35-40mil you can get a Jag to do it better, even unrigged.
Its just a matter of getting fights, which no doubt the Rifter gets more.
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Jecasta Silesta
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Posted - 2009.04.15 22:40:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Jecasta Silesta on 15/04/2009 22:43:14 Correct, no sane interceptor pilot will get within scram range of a Jag but trust me they will happily rush into an engagement with a Rifter.
However the reason I got the kill on the Jag was not his skills or his fittings,
standard:
3x150mm T2 1xRL T2 1xMWD T2 1xWEB T2 1xScram T2 1xMed Extender T2 1x Gyro T2 2xOD T2
No Riggs
The reasons are:-
1) I use Explosive and Kinetic Rigs and not EM and Thermal Rigs as people would expect. This gives you an edge against those damge types instead of just 'slightly' improving your defence against lasers which will be crappy with a sheild setup rigs or no rigs. 2) I also automatically overload my weapons and propultion at the start of the fight (it will last the duration with thermodynamics to 4). So I have the speed to keep the Jag at 8km from me assuming he has a MWD (Forcing him to use Barrage to hit me and hence Explosive and Kinetic Damage).
3) With my resistances to Kinetic and Explosive now both in the 70's when his are only 50 and 40 I am actually putting more real DPS onto the Jag than the Jag is putting onto me, his minor base HP advantage will not compensate.
That is why the Jag died not skills, Not piloting, Just the right setup for the job.
In the Rifter you can keep range to any interceptor fitted with a MWD and Web in exactly the same way and as most fit little or no tank they have no responce to you and will die.
However if you are piloting a Jag it is slower and for 40mil you will not have a Faction AB fitted and the ceptor will be able to escape assuming it has a web. If the ceptor is fitted for range, ie missile crow this will result in him slowly eating away at your passive tank until you die.
There are certainly ships off limits to this that will be owned by the Jag but for baiting interceptors and select AFs into 1v1's which is what I do, I submit that there is no finer ship.
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Corstaad
Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2009.04.15 22:52:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Corstaad on 15/04/2009 22:54:24 Jag is a much better ship and you'd of beat those ships without the extra bling on the rifter. The crow in web/scram range is easier to beat then a T1 frig. Ranis gets beat by rifters alot. People will always stupid fit first T2 ie AF kill. Your fits are a classic example of useless isk spent for zero gain. Go on SHC and find rifter fits.
Had to edit you fought a ****** on the AF kill.
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Jecasta Silesta
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Posted - 2009.04.15 23:11:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Corstaad Edited by: Corstaad on 15/04/2009 22:54:24 Jag is a much better ship and you'd of beat those ships without the extra bling on the rifter. The crow in web/scram range is easier to beat then a T1 frig. Ranis gets beat by rifters alot. People will always stupid fit first T2 ie AF kill. Your fits are a classic example of useless isk spent for zero gain. Go on SHC and find rifter fits.
Had to edit you fought a ****** on the AF kill.
1) The point is that if I had been in a Jag mate no one would have engaged me in the first place.
2) I would like to know exactly what you would have done differently if you had been the Jag pilot with the above setup? But as your effectivly saying I was the superior pilot thanks none the less :).
3) Given he was a member of Arcane aliance he probably was as you described him. But I really don't think there is anything he could have done about the situation short of not aggressing me in the first place or using a different fitting.
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Corstaad
Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2009.04.16 00:21:00 -
[6]
A jag pilot will just out right kill your ship. It has more dps, more tank. Only thing a rifter does better is the ability to use hail. Your doing well with your setup because people assume its armor tanked. A rifter is a great ship but its not better then a Jag.
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Jecasta Silesta
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Posted - 2009.04.16 01:26:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jecasta Silesta on 16/04/2009 01:29:11
Originally by: Corstaad A jag pilot will just out right kill your ship. It has more dps, more tank. Only thing a rifter does better is the ability to use hail. Your doing well with your setup because people assume its armor tanked. A rifter is a great ship but its not better then a Jag.
Why would anyone use hail in a frig vs frig fight? You would lose most of the additional DPS trying to close range and even with the tracking bonus you would not hit consistently at such a short range as hail requires.
Also in the above example the Jag dose not have more tank. Assuming that both parties use Barrage theapproximate numbers are 5666hp effective for the Rigged Rifter Vs 3800hp for the Un-Rigged Jag assuming you are both using Barrage (which you are forced to use bacause the rifter controls range). That is a ratio of 1.49x the hitpoints on the Rifter compared to the Jag. The damage bonus to the Jag only gives it an additional 25% DPS than Rifter. The useless optimal bonus will not help it in a AC fitting.
Also did you not read the very first line of the original post you fool. We are comparing an expensive Rifter to a cheap Jag if they were both just T2 fitted of course the smegging Jag would win.
I asked you what you would have done differently if you had piloted the Jag as it was setup? Looks like you have no answer for me. Either that or you have no ability to think beyond Ship X does more DPS than Ship Y so Ship X will alway win...noob. Its people like you that I kill every day. Its people like you that send me eve mails and accuse me of cheating just because things did not play out how they expected.
P.S You can now add a rail fitted Harpy to that list he attacked me and could not track me EVEN WEBBED. My expensive Rifter has now paid for itself in loot and ransom so I guess its not such a waist of ISK is it. Finally, its peoples assumptions about my ship and fitting that I am playing on thats what makes me a better pilot than them and what makes eve more than a game of Rock paper Scissors!
Edit for Spelling
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Mortuus
Minmatar Kouncel
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Posted - 2009.04.16 01:41:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Mortuus on 16/04/2009 01:41:43 Jec, your setup is fine.
I suitable Jaguar (instead of the awful basic cookie cutter fit) would hand your Rifter its rear.
First, they do not need to use Barrage with a good fitting, your scram + MSE fit for instance would cry vs a MWD + AB fit Jag, or a dual extender Jag. For roughly the same cost, and with the Jag paying out more insurance.
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Corstaad
Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2009.04.16 02:38:00 -
[9]
Your posting on a alt with the random EFT numbers that don't match. The fit the jag had will beat you anytime has more hps more dps more WEB. Also barrage isn't the best choice for ammo most times because of many issues's one is your own example of fitting exp/kin rigs. Since you use a heat sink you should also note it works both ways, destroying the theorycraft orbit. I'm not clear why your trying to spout bs about it. With your very expensive T1 frig you can kill normal targets better? Your not doing anything new people kill by getting under gun tracking or kiting all the time. The rifter you have cannot with any regularity go hunting T2 frigs unless you accept to lose Jag class money in a T1 package.
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Elurilmar
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Posted - 2009.04.16 04:14:00 -
[10]
Corstaad is an idiot.
/endthread
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Thercon Jair
Minmatar Nex Exercitus Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.04.16 04:20:00 -
[11]
What people would have done differently? I, for my part:
-scrap the stupid jaguar fit everyone loves, put Arties on it, then stash it away in the hangar for a roaming gang
-get my AC wolf out of my hangar and try to kill you. At which point I most likely end up driving you away, as you're faster than me, but you wouldn't be able to kill me.
Additionally, I actually never expect a rifter to be armor tanked. Most setups people use revolve around a shield extender and/or ODs/Nanos. I myself would armor tank my rifter, as I've done in the past Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar! |
Tefkros
The Dead Pod Society Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.04.16 06:18:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jecasta Silesta Rifter vs Jaguar
The fallacy of your argument lies in that you are rigging and flying the Rifter against a generic Jaguar. Which is fair if your purpose with that ship is fighting low sp frig sized ships.
I¦ll be fair, I use a similar Rifter, but with 125mm and dual gyros, and it¦s a fine ship. That¦s until you get webbed and hit with Warriors, in which case not even 125mm can track them.
So yes, your (and mine) Rifter rigged specifically for a Jaguar may kill a generic one, maybe even an unorthodox or whatever setup and it¦s pretty nice against many frigate sized ships, BUT the Jaguar¦s extra mid slot gives it a much wider engagement range. Anything with a web and 5 Warrior IIs will kill that Rifter, while a Jaguar will web and 2-volley them, then concentrate on the ship. The Jaguar¦s web also means that a Vagabond or some cruiser with AB cannot move away from you and drop it¦s tranversal (400m/s with his mwd disabled is enough to drop transversal even with your AB running. Even worse if it webs you). Additionally, may Jaguars and AFs in general fit ABs these days, plus webs, meaning that at worst, they will run if they get in trouble.
So I hope you get the idea from the examples...that Rifter is nice for challenging yourself and increasing your epeen, earning you some easy cash on the way, but a Jaguar flown properly can increase your profits substantially, just because of the range of ships it can engage with a high probability of winning.
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Morel Nova
z3r0 Gravity
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Posted - 2009.04.16 08:40:00 -
[13]
I have yet to actually run into a mwd-fitted jag. people fly these things post QR? (I hang in lowsec mostly though and its always AB fitted)
you cant control range against an AB fitted jag due to his web :(
I always armor tank my rifters, but the extender sounds like fun combined with rigs. might have to try that Put in space whales!
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Opertone
Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.04.16 09:40:00 -
[14]
I prefer wolf and thrasher, I've never flown a rifter because I fear running into a smart bomb setup and loosing my implants again.
Very bright point, you get more engagements in a small ship, and your skill and determination proves your combat ability. There is honor in taking on the odds in lighter setup.
Good players can fight and enjoy even with weaker setup, not necessarily crushing a rifter in a Heavy Assault ship.
Rifter is fun, a group of tech 1 ships on a raid is twice as fun
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Jecasta Silesta
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Posted - 2009.04.16 13:51:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Opertone I prefer wolf and thrasher, I've never flown a rifter because I fear running into a smart bomb setup and loosing my implants again.
Very bright point, you get more engagements in a small ship, and your skill and determination proves your combat ability. There is honor in taking on the odds in lighter setup.
Good players can fight and enjoy even with weaker setup, not necessarily crushing a rifter in a Heavy Assault ship.
Rifter is fun, a group of tech 1 ships on a raid is twice as fun
Yeah I fly the Wolf also...something like this:-
4 x 200mm ,heat sink 1 x B-type AB, 1 x T2 Scram 1 x 400mm Plate, 1 x Gyro T2, 1 x N-Type Exp Hardener, 1 x OD T2
2 x Damage Rigs
With my implants included I do over 300 DPS with Barrage. I have gotten a solo BS kill with this thing along with many cruisers etc. Problem is getting a target who dose not run or will not own you.. its also a 50 to 60 mil setup that is not fast enough to get past gate camps when the AB Rifter is.
At the end of the Day I can go out in the Rifter and get mobbed by interceptors within a few Min's. Get a couple of kills, possibly a ransom and come home happy.
In the wolf I'll spend time trying to find a target that does not run (and that I can take) then end up hitting a gate camp and dieing before I ever fire a shot, losing a ship worth twice the ISK in the process.
You would be shocked how many people still use a MWD on a Jag in 0.0 they think they need it to get past camps (this is probably not true). But in low sec it would be a AB fitting 90% of the time. Its important to note, that most of these people are chasing me so I will have made sure i know if they use a MWD or an AB prior to letting them catch me. It is also important to note that I would never engage a drone boat in this ship period.
The AB + MWD fitting people are talking about in the Jag thread looks very interesting. But you have got to drop the WEB so interceptors such as the Rannis will be able to control range even if they don't run in the first place.
Corstaad:
1)The numbers are approx, as I stated, but they are close.
2)This is an alt (my solo PVP alt), the main is too busy orbiting a POS in something much larger than a Rifter for me to use it to solo with.
3)You really are a fool.
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.04.16 14:06:00 -
[16]
Personally I think that all of the tier 2 assault ships are a little on the expensive side, then again if you feel that you rarely loose any ships then that isn't really an issue.
The Jaguar allows for you to take on considerably more targets than the Rifter, although you pherhaps won't be as suicidal as you would be in a Rifter. That alone makes it worth it for some who focus more on the aspect of fun rather than isk efficiency.
- The combination of 4 mids, excellent speed and 'barrage' makes the Jaguar one of the few viable ab+mwd ships. Its damage and tank will be weaker than most other AF's but as long as you don't engage them you should be fine.
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Jecasta Silesta
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Posted - 2009.04.16 14:17:00 -
[17]
Are lots of people using this AB + MWD fitting? I am Yet to see one myself.
Also if your opponent now has a web and AB, but you have droped the web, will this not put you into a much worse situation than if you had just been using a AB? Or is it just to allow you the choice to engage or retreat?
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