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[Issue] Fix the Naglfar

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Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.18 18:51:00 - [1] My previous topic was more on minmatar capitals in general (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=779753) and while I would like to see the nidhoggur shield tanked, the Naglfar on it's own is a more pressing issue. When Bane brought the previous topic to the CSM he lumped it in with a capital change in general and I really don't think the Naglfar got enough attention, hence this thread. Why does the Naglfar suck? Training time Not only do you have to train up two different capital weapon systems, but if you are a Minmatar carrier pilot you have to train up a different set of tanking skills in order to shield tank it. This leaves most Nidhoggur pilots looking at the dread training time and figuring out the training for a revelation is about the same amount of time, but with the added bonus of the revelation being a great dread and getting good t2 sniper bses out of it. On top of this, in order to really maximize the damage of the Naglfar you need to train up two different sets of weapon support skills while any other dread pilot would only need to train 1. This would all be okay, if the Naglfar wasn't a sub par dread after all that training. Fitting Here's links on "regular" fittings for Dreads. I'm using all skills V to really emphasize how much the Naglfar sucks even if you spend the insane amount of time to train everything to V. Also all fits will include faction EANM's (as they are rather cheap) and faction damage mods. Shield tanked Naglfar: http://eve-files.com/dl/194372 Armor tanked Naglfar: http://eve-files.com/dl/194381 Revelation: http://eve-files.com/dl/194373 Moros: http://eve-files.com/dl/194375 Phoenix: http://eve-files.com/dl/194374 The fits in general are a bit more "gank" fit rather than tank fit, apart from the armor tanking Naglfar which I usually see fit with 1 gyro. Unfortunately this fit kills the only advantage the armor tanking nag has over the other armor tanking dreads, namely cap stability and eHP. Now what do you notice about the naglfar in comparison to all 3 other dreads? All 3 other dreads do about 500 more dps than a shield tanked naglfar (which has more damage mods) and about 1700 more dps than the armor tanked naglfar. If you turn off the guns on the moros and the rev, the armor tanking naglfar has about 100k more eHP than them both but they both tank around the same. Personally, for 1700 dps more I'd take the hit in tank. The shield tanking naglfar has about the same eHP as the moros and revelation, but the tank is much less cap stable (even if it's more of a burst tank). Even in cap fights when a shield tank naglfar is primary you can often dump all your cap before dying (I've done this). The phoenix is considerably better than both setups of the naglfar. It does more dps, more alpha, more tankable dps, and more eHP than both setups. You do have to deal with missiles and how much they suck in PvP, but so does the naglfar. So we can sum up the dreads like this: The rev has the advantage of no ammo which means it doesn't have to reload, it also has a decent tank and good dps The Moros has the same dps / tank as the Rev and a fun little drone bonus for undock games and fighting sub-caps The Phoenix has a crazy tank, crazy eHP, and crazy alpha which makes it a pretty fun ship to fly if you can get over lol missiles The Naglfar has ... the ability to tank differently and shoot missiles OR guns? I really don't know. What does the Naglfar have that you would ever want to fly it? Nothing. It even requires you to sink more time into training. Please resist the urge to flame - Mitnal
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.18 19:00:00 - [2] reserved Please resist the urge to flame - Mitnal
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.18 19:01:00 - [3] reserved Please resist the urge to flame - Mitnal
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.18 23:54:00 - [4] Originally by: LaVista Vista How many topics do we need on this? The issue was already raised too. You could of at least read the first two sentences. Please resist the urge to flame - Mitnal
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.20 14:51:00 - [5] Originally by: Noodly Appendage Not supported..shield boost amount on a dread? Tha't won't help it a single bit to set it a apart.. CCP should make it the 'gank' dread of the four..reduce base HP by 25% or so, and instead give it 7.5%/lvl ROF bonus accompanied with a general fix of capital projectiles. (as it stands now unbonused pulses are better than bonused capital proejctiles!!) Remove one low for a mid ad give it some extra cpu. In short.. - lower hp, more dps - ability to fit mroe damage mods along with shield tank That'll really make it 'different' from the other three. It already has low eHP, giving it a bonus to shield boosting would only make the incredibly weak and ~1 minute cap out time on it a strong enough to not die horribly to a pos (which happens if you shield tank and it's a well setup, gunned tower). Support Fixing the Naglfar!
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.21 19:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Noodly Appendage (as it stands now unbonused pulses are better than bonused capital proejctiles!!) Hahah so I went back and looked at this: Here's a nag with Giga beams (All skills V): http://eve-files.com/dl/194710 And Here's the nag with arty that was in the OP: http://eve-files.com/dl/194381 *Even with Minmatar Dread V a Naglfar with beams will significantly out damage a arty Nag if you take into account reload time* It's official, fit lasers on your nag.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.23 19:22:00 - [7] Originally by: Shai 'Hulud Edited by: Shai ''Hulud on 23/04/2009 11:35:52 Lazor nag is the next fotm? /signed I just bought a nag again. Who knows, maybe in 20 days we'll get a great hilarious lossmail. Support Fixing the Naglfar!
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.28 18:06:00 - [8] Originally by: Kenpachi Viktor http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1056658&page=2#36 sigh I bet we'll be getting a cpu boost and another mid slot. Go ahead and throw a bandaid on the gushing wound. Support Fixing the Naglfar!
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.28 18:53:00 - [9] Updated OP to alter for ship hull only having room for 2 turrets: Instead of 4 gun slots, 2 gun slots with role bonus 100% damage bonus for capital projectiles. Support Fixing the Naglfar!
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.29 15:31:00 - [10] Edited by: Yorda on 29/04/2009 15:31:25 I was going to reply to someone here to bump the thread but figured shamelessly bumping it would be a better idea anyway (plus, :effort:) Support Fixing the Naglfar!

Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.29 20:30:00 - [11] Originally by: Yorda Originally by: Kenpachi Viktor http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1056658&page=2#36 sigh I bet we'll be getting a cpu boost and another mid slot. Go ahead and throw a bandaid on the gushing wound. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1061225 Oh hey look at that CCP actually surpased my expectations for their worthlessness and complete inability to understand their own game. Congrats! Support Fixing the Naglfar!
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.05.01 19:12:00 - [12] Okay so after a lot of ~math~ the new capital artillery proposals means that with DREAD V capital artillery will out damage unbonused lasers on the nag by about 5%. This still means that with dread IV capital beams will do ~5% more than capital artillery. Guess I'll have to update the OP. Support Fixing the Naglfar!
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.05.04 22:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Shadow Devourer Did you know the word "gullible" isn't in dictionaries? no wai! I'm very happy with these new changes as I can go back to my previous title of laser nag > arty nag without having to preface it with anything. Also it means I can fly laser nags :) Support Fixing the Naglfar!

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