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new skill trees: "Special Attacks"

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Dakt NiRuthgar	Posted - 2009.04.20 16:50:00 - [31] Originally by: Tamahra You dont think we need another method, and thats why my idea sucks... What the heck... You ever heard of the response "working as intended"? Sturdy Girl is giving you a more complicated way of saying exactly that. If you suggest a change, then it's up to you to say why it's needed, what benefits it brings, and address the drawbacks - including player resistance to the idea. And you'll get lots of it. Be prepared to deal with it and adapt =)
Sturdy Girl	Posted - 2009.04.20 16:53:00 - [32] Edited by: Sturdy Girl on 20/04/2009 16:53:30 removed, as now irrelevant.
Tamahra 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.04.20 16:57:00 - [33] Originally by: Dakt NiRuthgar Originally by: Tamahra You dont think we need another method, and thats why my idea sucks... What the heck... You ever heard of the response "working as intended"? Sturdy Girl is giving you a more complicated way of saying exactly that. If you suggest a change, then it's up to you to say why it's needed, what benefits it brings, and address the drawbacks - including player resistance to the idea. And you'll get lots of it. Be prepared to deal with it and adapt =) I like how everybody on this sub-forum "features and ideas" (which is actually the worst forum ive come across) is pretending to be such a smarta.ss. Im well aware of what you said, but working out an idea in its every detail is a waste of time in 99% of all cases, since the idea will get derailed anyways. But thanks for your input... i guess..
Sturdy Girl	Posted - 2009.04.20 16:57:00 - [34] Well, I personally wouldn't be in favour of it at the moment... Not because its a bad idea, but because I think the game is already too difficult to balance. Given how stuff changes all the time, and gets rebalanced etc, introducing more complexity only serves to increase the problem. If, lets say after a patch, the game got into a state where it was very well balanced AND didn't look likely to have that balance changed, then I wouldn't have any problem with such an idea. From my point of view (and its just that: an opinion!), I'd prefer to only see features which fix, or consolidate existing functionality, rather than brand new extensions...
Tvaishk Suzuki Long Night Industries	Posted - 2009.04.20 18:58:00 - [35] There is also a question with this idea as to how you assign these "special attacks" are they always available to the player or are they assigned per a ship so that you cant use your 5% Missile damage bonus as you have it, on a ship that isn't specifically for missiles. I feel the main problem with this idea is balancing it as the ships as they are the odd 5% in something could really change things, and also given these will be skill based and cost some undefined commodity I feel there likely to make the gap between new players and old even bigger than it already is. There is also Cannon problems with this, why is it possible for pilots to do this now? what happened. part of the hostility to this is from your comments on it have no drawback which points people to the fact that you've done little research on this. As if you look round for a while in eve you'll fine everything has a counter or a drawback, from A doomsday to a humble blue pill. On a not about the posts in this thread I think part of the hostility comes from the fact that eve players enjoy the fact that eve does not share that much with most mmo's out there in fact they take pride in it and so tend to act hostile to things brought from those games. Also as partly mention previously by someone else a lot of people here have been playing eve a long time and have been in this forum for about as long, they've seen all the idea and seen there development, they've sat in on the round table sessions with ccp and have tested and bug reported things on sisi. There are indeed exceptions and its true that many of the posts are rude and don't say much but don't just wave off there posts as flamers for flames sake. --- Lieutenant, Mixed Metaphor Appliance Man
Kumq uat Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.20 19:02:00 - [36] Can I choose Picachu for my special attack? www.eve-pirate.com original author
Helena Zeugir Gallente FW Scuad Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.20 19:09:00 - [37] Oh boy. Ok, three things: 1. Overheating: special power that gives you a slight edge for a limited amount of time. 2. Boosters: special power that gives you a slight edge for a limited amount of time. And finally: if you introduce this, then comes the night that haunts every other MMO out there: alpha strikes. Imagine an artillery alpha... it already hurts a lot doesn't it? now imagine this guy has every single kind of special power trained, he pumps them all up at the same time and alphas yo ass for bbq-dmg. Not fun. Then the game becomes what eventually every other MMO out there becomes: who has more cooldowns ready to blow at the start of a fight. Unfun.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.04.20 20:08:00 - [38] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 20/04/2009 20:11:13 Originally by: Tamahra And they would not be like overheating. I have to disagree. It sounds very much like overheating. Without drawbacks.. Overheating is the 'EVE special attack'. There is no need to have it implemented twice, just with a little different flavor. edit: Oh, and of course boosters. Thanks Helena for reminding me. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"

CCP Mitnal C C P	Posted - 2009.04.20 20:22:00 - [39] Cleaned. Please stay on-topic and if you disagree with an idea give constructive criticism. Mitnal Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us

Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.04.20 21:18:00 - [40] Originally by: Tamahra Edited by: Tamahra on 20/04/2009 13:25:57 Every mmo has special attacks. why not eve? Because Eve is better than every other MMO.
Doomed Predator The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.04.20 21:30:00 - [41] I'd prefer ships sacrificing something for an effect, for example: A ship with a lot of shield HPs discharges its shields causing an EMP blast in a XX km radius and breaking lock for X seconds or something like that. Or something like overloading your warp drive giving you +2 warp core strength warping you in a straight line for XXX mill KM and having a XX% chance of blowing your warp drive basically making you a sitting duck. The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again
Jitabug Caldari Viva POS Pinata	Posted - 2009.04.20 22:06:00 - [42] Originally by: Lear Hepburn Originally by: Tamahra Edited by: Tamahra on 20/04/2009 13:25:57 Every mmo has special attacks. why not eve? Because Eve is better than every other MMO. Every MMO is also full of "special" people as well. We don't want them either.
Jin Labarre	Posted - 2009.04.21 03:47:00 - [43] Originally by: Tamahra Every mmo has special attacks. No, not every mmo has special attacks. Let's settle on "many". Originally by: Tamahra why not eve? "Many" MMOs have elves. Does eve therefore need elves? I do not see any need for any kind of "special attacks" beyond what is already in the game. If you want a special attack, buy something insanely powerful and expensive, that your opponent does not expect you to have in your ship. I see no gain for gameplay from any weird special attacks. Missions would not be more interesting if there was a "roflzomgpwn" button with a cool down and PvP would certainly not gain from something that would literally be used in EVERY minor engagement. Only things that are special are special. If everyone ends up doing it, how do you justify calling it special?
CrestoftheStars Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.04.21 04:40:00 - [44] Originally by: Nidhiesk Originally by: Sturdy Girl Please give an example of a 'special attack', and why you think it would improve the game. Personally, I think this sounds like a terrible idea. What would these special attacks actually represent? stop the special attack thingy. Just use a better ship... or even better, you want challenge for your mission, use something less powerful. You'll find it less boring. personally i like hitting a frig for 2k dmg on a mission... that's what makes it all worth it XD but seriously: no there shouldn't be a special attack, we have more then enough macro managing if you learn too use it: boosters as first, find the right combo and the amount which is the most suitable compared to the properbillity of drawback. overheat: overheating your modules at the right time and stopping it at the right time to let them last for the excat duration of the fight letting them get 1 second from destruction but still online then repairing them afterwards. and then there are the different small stuff, like 2 smartbomb for drones, or something specialised like that. there are more then enough rl skills in eve right now, it is only a matter of learning to master it. the correct range and speed, giving you the correct transvalosity and angular compared to the signature of the enemy and weaponry you are using, if a whole projekt to master by itself. their are actually only very few people in eve that master those actual numbers and most people just have a proximised idea of where too orbit and then just orbit at their max speed, not looking into the different calculations (with missiles it is more a quition if it is worth the extra dps to pind down the target close, or stay at distance, and if it is worth using t2 or faction etc). ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
Tamahra 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.04.21 07:32:00 - [45] Edited by: Tamahra on 21/04/2009 07:32:48 Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 20/04/2009 20:11:13 Originally by: Tamahra And they would not be like overheating. I have to disagree. It sounds very much like overheating. Without drawbacks.. Overheating is the 'EVE special attack'. There is no need to have it implemented twice, just with a little different flavor. edit: Oh, and of course boosters. Thanks Helena for reminding me. One drawback could be: Youd need mats to enable your special abilities which would be consumed up each time you use them. (would open up a whole new production chain for expendeables) The difference to boosters would be: Boosters have a much longer duration and a much larger effect. Abilities would have a much weaker effect, and last much shorter
Tamahra 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.04.21 07:38:00 - [46] Edited by: Tamahra on 21/04/2009 07:39:29 Originally by: Jin Labarre 1. I do not see any need for any kind of "special attacks" beyond what is already in the game. If you want a special attack, buy something insanely powerful and expensive, that your opponent does not expect you to have in your ship. Those are not really special attacks 2. I see no gain for gameplay from any weird special attacks. I could see a huge gain for gameplay. As i said before, the special ability stuff could open up a whole new production chain, since they could make it so that you use up mats when you want to enable your special abilities. Those mats youd have to carry with you, in your cargohold (taking some space of your cargohold as well). 3. Missions would not be more interesting if there was a "roflzomgpwn" button it wouldnt be a roflzomgpwn button. It would only be a slight bonus for a short duration. 4. with a cool down and PvP would certainly not gain from something that would literally be used in EVERY minor engagement. no definately not. since there is a cooldowntimer, along with the decision how many mats you are taking with you, youd always have to carefully evaluate when to activate those 5. Only things that are special are special. If everyone ends up doing it, how do you justify calling it special? they could be very special, if they make it so that the skills needed for enabling the special abilities would be very rare, or not even be tradeable in any form. Maybe make it so that every player had to obtain them by themselves, maybe through rare encounters in special epic storylines.
Tamahra 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.04.21 07:41:00 - [47] Originally by: Helena Zeugir And finally: if you introduce this, then comes the night that haunts every other MMO out there: alpha strikes. Imagine an artillery alpha... it already hurts a lot doesn't it? now imagine this guy has every single kind of special power trained, he pumps them all up at the same time and alphas yo ass for bbq-dmg. its all a question of how powerful these special abilities are.... i was intending to give them a slight bonus. Heck they could even focus those special abilities mainly on defensive purposes, like 3% shield regeneration for 2 minutes, or 5% bonus to shield booster amount for 2 minutes, with a cooldowntimer of 30 minutes....
011001100110000101100111	Posted - 2009.04.23 05:54:00 - [48] As stated already there are things very similar to this in the game, most notably boosters. They are something consumed in the game that requires skills, that due to a side effect that might happen have a cooldown timer. This is an unnecessary idea.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.04.23 06:10:00 - [49] Originally by: Tamahra Originally by: Helena Zeugir And finally: if you introduce this, then comes the night that haunts every other MMO out there: alpha strikes. Imagine an artillery alpha... it already hurts a lot doesn't it? now imagine this guy has every single kind of special power trained, he pumps them all up at the same time and alphas yo ass for bbq-dmg. its all a question of how powerful these special abilities are.... i was intending to give them a slight bonus. Heck they could even focus those special abilities mainly on defensive purposes, like 3% shield regeneration for 2 minutes, or 5% bonus to shield booster amount for 2 minutes, with a cooldowntimer of 30 minutes.... So kind of like the already mentioned boosters then? Improved Blue Pill Booster
Grek Forto Malevolent Intentions Dark Solar Empire	Posted - 2009.04.23 06:39:00 - [50] Originally by: Tamahra Every mmo has special attacks.... Originally by: Stitcher It's "Caldari", not "Caldarians". One Caldari, three Caldari, all the Caldari are doing Caldari things using Caldari tools in a Caldari way.
gpfault Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.23 07:54:00 - [51] Originally by: Tamahra 1. I do not see any need for any kind of "special attacks" beyond what is already in the game. If you want a special attack, buy something insanely powerful and expensive, that your opponent does not expect you to have in your ship. Those are not really special attacks Maybe they're not special attacks, but there's plenty of 'special' people who attack in expensive fit ships. Quote: 2. I see no gain for gameplay from any weird special attacks. I could see a huge gain for gameplay. As i said before, the special ability stuff could open up a whole new production chain, Oh, like drug manufacturing? Quote: since they could make it so that you use up mats when you want to enable your special abilities. Those mats youd have to carry with you, in your cargohold (taking some space of your cargohold as well). Oh, like combat boosters? Quote: 3. Missions would not be more interesting if there was a "roflzomgpwn" button it wouldnt be a roflzomgpwn button. It would only be a slight bonus for a short duration. Oh, like synth boosters with the duration nerfed? Quote: 4. with a cool down and PvP would certainly not gain from something that would literally be used in EVERY minor engagement. no definately not. since there is a cooldowntimer, along with the decision how many mats you are taking with you, youd always have to carefully evaluate when to activate those Oh, like combat boosters (with cooldown timers)? Quote: 5. Only things that are special are special. If everyone ends up doing it, how do you justify calling it special? they could be very special, if they make it so that the skills needed for enabling the special abilities would be very rare, or not even be tradeable in any form. Maybe make it so that every player had to obtain them by themselves, maybe through rare encounters in special epic storylines. Oh, like hunting out LADAR sites for booster BPCs and materials? Yeah special attacks are a great idea, they'll really bring something new to the game.
Tamahra 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.04.23 08:01:00 - [52] you guys are so narrow-minded..... I was hoping the derailing would stop and some constructive feedback coming in, but still.... nerd-rage at its worst. But ok. As for the latest replies: Then why not add a new type of booster, on top of the current boosters, give each char 1 or 2 extra slots, specifically for these new boosters, with MUCH shorter duration than the current boosters, a slightly higher benefit, but with a much higher chance for side-effects. How about this?? would make combat more fun, but also more unpredictable, for those who cant live without their drugs. also would give another boost to drug-manufacturing
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.23 09:30:00 - [53] Originally by: Tamahra you guys are so narrow-minded..... We might be narrow-minded, but you're looking over the fence, thinking the grass is greener. It is greener, astro-turf greener.
Fille Balle TachyonTubbies Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.04.23 13:21:00 - [54] Hi. The basic concept isn't flawed, it's just that it need further development and balancing. I think one type of special attack could be like this: Name: Full auto Effect: Increase rate of fire at the cost of tracking/accuracy 3% improved ROF per level of the "Full auto" skill, 20% reduced tracking while in use Duration: 5 minutes (or maybe until disabled, but max 5 minutes) Rationale: Pilot has learned how to optimize his turrets to improve their use against larger or stationary targets, by diverting power from the tracking systems to the trigger mechanism. It is dangerous to let this go on for too long, and might cause the guns to explode from overheating. The pilot being aware of this will not proceed to let this go on for too long. This greatly reduces the pilots ability to track targets, but will be very useful against large slow targets. Notes: Can not be used while the "Targeted shot" ability is in use ------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Targeted shot Effect: Better tracking at the cost of reduced rate of fire 5% better tracking per level of the "Targeted shot skill", 30% worse ROF while in effect Duration: 2 minutes (or until disabled) Rationale: The pilot has learned to use time to his advantage, there by being able point his turrets in positions that allow him to hit the target even though the target is much faster than his turrets can track. Very useful against small fast targets. Note: Can not be used while the "Full auto" ability is in use I think this sort of thing would add an extra element of actual skill to the game. Atm combat is basically: Target foe, activate mwd until within optimal, disable mwd, open fire until either target is dead, or tank is running thin. If tank is running thin, run away. If unable to track, run away. If outnumbered, run away. If in doubt, run away. In fact, skip the above and just run away anyways. If run away fails, use special ability: "logofski" ftw Would be nice if you had some more options than this. I find the "logofski" special ability a bit lackluster and I never use it myself
Tamahra 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.04.23 13:50:00 - [55] Edited by: Tamahra on 23/04/2009 13:55:17 Edited by: Tamahra on 23/04/2009 13:52:21 Originally by: Fille Balle Hi. The basic concept isn't flawed, it's just that it need further development and balancing. I think one type of special attack could be like this: Name: Full auto Effect: Increase rate of fire at the cost of tracking/accuracy 3% improved ROF per level of the "Full auto" skill, 20% reduced tracking while in use Duration: 5 minutes (or maybe until disabled, but max 5 minutes) Rationale: Pilot has learned how to optimize his turrets to improve their use against larger or stationary targets, by diverting power from the tracking systems to the trigger mechanism. It is dangerous to let this go on for too long, and might cause the guns to explode from overheating. The pilot being aware of this will not proceed to let this go on for too long. This greatly reduces the pilots ability to track targets, but will be very useful against large slow targets. Notes: Can not be used while the "Targeted shot" ability is in use ------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Targeted shot Effect: Better tracking at the cost of reduced rate of fire 5% better tracking per level of the "Targeted shot skill", 30% worse ROF while in effect Duration: 2 minutes (or until disabled) Rationale: The pilot has learned to use time to his advantage, there by being able point his turrets in positions that allow him to hit the target even though the target is much faster than his turrets can track. Very useful against small fast targets. Note: Can not be used while the "Full auto" ability is in use I think this sort of thing would add an extra element of actual skill to the game. Atm combat is basically: Target foe, activate mwd until within optimal, disable mwd, open fire until either target is dead, or tank is running thin. If tank is running thin, run away. If unable to track, run away. If outnumbered, run away. If in doubt, run away. In fact, skip the above and just run away anyways. If run away fails, use special ability: "logofski" ftw Would be nice if you had some more options than this. I find the "logofski" special ability a bit lackluster and I never use it myself quite some great ideas in this one. Would allow you to activate these special abilities (or new short-duration boosters, however we call it) for particular scenarios, but by suffering a penalty in another department as well. I also could think of this: Name: Ghetto Triage Mode Effect: 10% bonus to Shield booster effect per Level of the "Ghetto Triage Mode Skill, immobility while the effect lasts Duration: 2 minutes (cant be disabled before the effect has run out) Restrictions: Can only be used on Cruiser sized or up vessels Rationale: The pilot has learned to use the engineering systems of a ship to his advantage, there by being able to transfer all of the propulsion energy into the shield for a short time. Very useful against hard encounters. Note: Can not be used while any other ability is in use Reuse Timer: 30 Minutes
Fille Balle TachyonTubbies Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.04.24 10:44:00 - [56] Yeah, that's more like it! Basically the idea is that you can't just give an advantage, there has to be a drawback of some sort, there by creating a narrow window of usefullness, preventing it from being overpowered. But then again, I'm just bumping this thread to get it back up so we can see what people have to say now that the concept has been balanced a bit more. Carebear smile ftw

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