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Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
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Posted - 2009.04.24 14:01:00 -
[1]
I have been wrapping my head around this one again lately. The main reason being now a new breed of players are again begging the ccp to create a npc automated transporting/courier system.
!DONT!
I am as tired of the logistics time sink and problem as the rest of the playerbase, but creating this will devaluate the game. I aggree we desperatly need an improvement in the logistic topic, but think there is a better way.
Low Saturation
Currently we have way to few couriers placed for players to actually fly without ballast or air. The reason for this low saturation is based on a few faults in the game mechanics.
If there arent enough couriers to pick up there is no incentive to work as a transport company. To few seriosly want this area because earning is to low in a low demand/saturation market. (Even though the need/demand behind is actually huge)
Courier contract barrier
Skills: One main reason there arent more couriers place is of that the limit skillwise is backwards. You can make a low number of public contracts, but a huge number of internal corp contracts. This is bad for the whole courier biz becaues such are by def almost always prefered outsourced.
Escrow: When placing a courier the escrow has to be valued to avoid being deliberatly defaulted by the contractor. This makes the entry level into the business crazy high. Currently you have low chance to work this area without extreme trust or extreme liquidity. This is a bad system. It only exists because "stealing" is to easy.
solution 1 STATEMENT: If you support automated system you just as well could support an no stealing possible system. Or at least making it extremely difficult to steal the content. One way would be to make the package extremely hard to open/hack. Skill barrier etc. Make the package contraband and docking at any npc station would cause aggression and standing hit. and finally make it so the package auto returns to the owner after a month.
solution 2 STANDING: Make collateral reduced by issuer to contractors standing. So if trust is already created this is reflected in the collateral.
So we need more contracts possible to create and lower pricetag/moneysink on it. This so we can make many and saturate the market for transport pickups. A high impact standing reduction with local station would be a fairly good model, and grant benefits to players strategically. The Escrow and trust problem needs to be fixed. No one is benefiting from current low transport/logistics system not even scammers and pirates. Actually defaulting the contract should be impossible but stealing it by shooting the courier should still be an option. In actuality such fixing could help a player insurance system to develop.
A NICE TO HAVE improvement/feature
Linking the Auto pilot to the courier system. Thus when you are docked at a station your AP would scan the station couriers for you using presettings. Thus when leaving if there was a courier from current location to the destination it would auto offer the contract. Also a setting of range so it also offered en route and 1,2,3 jumps from destination would be even better. This with the above fix would imho resolve all trucking and transport issues and no interbus would be needed.
A small extra would be a way to sort courier contracts when browsing them so it shows isk/jump/m3 and thus transport corps could pull these contracts of regionally in bulk.
I hope the perspectives and depth of the above gameplay makes sense..
- Money is Love -
Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.04.24 14:03:00 -
[2]
Fixing the database issues which prevent item amounts and sizes allowing contracts to be created for sizes up to full freighter would go a long way towards helping the courier system. |
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
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Posted - 2009.04.24 14:09:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Fixing the database issues which prevent item amounts and sizes allowing contracts to be created for sizes up to full freighter would go a long way towards helping the courier system.
Thanks for the addendum :) I forgot that weird limitation. Its a code relic of sorts afaik, to make scams less likely.
- Money is Love -
Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Ji Sama
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Posted - 2009.04.24 14:16:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Fixing the database issues which prevent item amounts and sizes allowing contracts to be created for sizes up to full freighter would go a long way towards helping the courier system.
this the 120000 m3 is killing me..
@caleb.
your on a run, i agree with the changes you propose, its simply to easy to steal.. again its the lack of consequence..
a trust (standing) based discount on collateral is a very good idea imo..
i would also like to see this inc. in trading.. as you also mentioned in another post!
This is a signature not related to EVE |
Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.24 14:21:00 -
[5]
Interbee is a shipping conglomerate for Goons that I helped create. The idea is that the average goons has very little in the way of empire-side transportation capabilities, combined with constant war-decs, so Interbee was created to handle mass shipping of goods from Jita to our 0.0 hubs. As we've grown, here are a few of our major complaints:
1. Max cargo size. Seriously, its way past time this was fixed.
2. Along with #1, split and recombine courier packages.
3. A link back to the contract in the package description. When your corp has 200 outstanding contracts, its a lot of fun hunting through each one trying to find out which contract matches up with the package you've just delivered.
4. Contract expiration in the item name and an ability to sort by this. Its frustrating to have a bunch of packages in a station, and not know which ones are about to expire and which ones are the brand new ones you just accepted today.
5. Damaged cargo can be added to a courier package, but a courier package with damaged cargo cannot be recontracted. Yea, you figure out how that makes sense.
There's probably a couple more I can't remember off the top of my head, I'll add them later if I can think of it.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.04.24 14:26:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau
Interbee is a shipping conglomerate for Goons that I helped create. The idea is that the average goons has very little in the way of empire-side transportation capabilities, combined with constant war-decs, so Interbee was created to handle mass shipping of goods from Jita to our 0.0 hubs. As we've grown, here are a few of our major complaints:
1. Max cargo size. Seriously, its way past time this was fixed.
2. Along with #1, split and recombine courier packages.
3. A link back to the contract in the package description. When your corp has 200 outstanding contracts, its a lot of fun hunting through each one trying to find out which contract matches up with the package you've just delivered.
4. Contract expiration in the item name and an ability to sort by this. Its frustrating to have a bunch of packages in a station, and not know which ones are about to expire and which ones are the brand new ones you just accepted today.
5. Damaged cargo can be added to a courier package, but a courier package with damaged cargo cannot be recontracted. Yea, you figure out how that makes sense.
There's probably a couple more I can't remember off the top of my head, I'll add them later if I can think of it.
Being able to remotely managed/split/combine/etc.. items from your corporate/personal hangars |
Vested Interest
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Posted - 2009.04.24 14:26:00 -
[7]
Sorry but if your stuff isn't getting delivered than you're doing something wrong.
I agree that the limit of 21 open public courier gigs is way too low. I don't agree that any changes to the collateral system are needed or wanted. If you want to discount someone's collateral, than do it.
I had an idea way back for personal freight/courier drones that could be tasked to one's own needs or released into a public "transit swarm" where they could be rented on a per job basis. But I think one of CCPs main design principles is that everything has to be moved from A to B by a real person 
Perhaps a zippy new courier contracts interface that separates them from the crappy old contracts screen? Some minor functional improvements would be really nice.
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HawkBlade
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.04.24 14:28:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau
3. A link back to the contract in the package description. When your corp has 200 outstanding contracts, its a lot of fun hunting through each one trying to find out which contract matches up with the package you've just delivered.
I think that it would simply be easiest if you could right click on a courier package and select deliver. No need to hunt for the relevant contract, no need to have a database query displayed to you. Just delivery.
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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
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Posted - 2009.04.24 14:30:00 -
[9]
Collateral isnĘt just protection against theft but also against courier laziness/incompetence/extortion. Making the package hard/impossible to steal doesnĘt protect against these other avenues of loss.
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Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.24 14:36:00 -
[10]
Originally by: HawkBlade
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau
3. A link back to the contract in the package description. When your corp has 200 outstanding contracts, its a lot of fun hunting through each one trying to find out which contract matches up with the package you've just delivered.
I think that it would simply be easiest if you could right click on a courier package and select deliver. No need to hunt for the relevant contract, no need to have a database query displayed to you. Just delivery.
yea, that works too.
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Selina Candor
Chernobyl Trading Corporation
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Posted - 2009.04.24 15:53:00 -
[11]
second the lack of contracts to be a utter pita.
And it also happens to be the easiest to fix if CCP would introduce a new skill like 'Advanced contract management', further increasing the number of contracts slots like how the more advanced trade skills work.
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Sakai Kando
Gallente
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.24 16:10:00 -
[12]
More contract slots would make new types of business a lot more feasible. I haven't run into the limit yet, but I know that I easily could if I wanted to implement some of my ideas...
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
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Posted - 2009.04.24 17:12:00 -
[13]
Edited by: corestwo on 24/04/2009 17:13:38
Originally by: Sakai Kando
More contract slots would make new types of business a lot more feasible. I haven't run into the limit yet, but I know that I easily could if I wanted to implement some of my ideas...
I have a Jita 4-4 office to run the faction dealing side of my business because 21 contracts isn't enough, and guess what? 71 contracts isn't enough either, and the extra ten I'd get from Corp Contracting V wouldn't really help. The aforementioned Advanced Contract Management (and matching Advanced Corporate Contract Management) would help considerably, although even then...currently I have 169 items on contract, waiting to go on contract, or waiting to be moved, and I've had more.
Additionally, while it has nothing to do with this specific issue (ie, courier work) it would be awfully nice to see the contract interface in general revamped. Making them en masse is a pain in the neck. As a consumer, searching is a pain in the neck. If you know the one specific item you want to find, great. Maybe, however, you wish to browse? Show me all Dark Blood items, all varieties of available Tachyon Beam Laser, perhaps everything you have available from Chelm. Oops, can't do that, have to pick one specific item. I think the best approach, for auctions/item exchanges anyway, really would be to simply replace the existing system with a market-like interface. I don't see why other contract types couldn't be included in this, either, to be quite honest.
*ahem*
Sorry for the thread-jack.
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Goonfleet Investment Banking - Bringing you the spoils of Delve!
Search Corestwo and Goonfleet Investment Banking under "issued by" on contracts for the current item list! |
Vested Interest
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Posted - 2009.04.24 17:29:00 -
[14]
I agree with Corestwo completely.
Originally by: Vested Interest
I want the contracts interface to work like Ebay instead of Prodigy(tm) Marketplace.
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Omber Zombie
Gallente
Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2009.04.24 17:44:00 -
[15]
the contract size limit was raised by csm - I'll point out it hasn't been fixed at the next issue review (they agreed to set it to a max equalling the smallest freighter cargo hold).
As for the contract # limits - I know this is going to sound unpopular, but this is a MMOG, there is a point to having corpmates... the choice between doing things solo and doing things as a group should always fall in the favour of the group action, at least imho. (dons the flame suit)
I do like the standing effecting collateral idea in the OP tho
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My Blog |
HawkBlade
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.04.24 17:51:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Omber Zombie
As for the contract # limits - I know this is going to sound unpopular, but this is a MMOG, there is a point to having corpmates... the choice between doing things solo and doing things as a group should always fall in the favour of the group action, at least imho. (dons the flame suit)
Well wouldn't want you to put it on for no reason so here goes: Are you blind, deaf and dumb? [/joke] Okay, now that is out of the way, the problem with the above thought is this: The corporate number of public contracts, the "total" amount", can not be increased due to corporate member participation. One person, with the skill at maximum, consumes the entirety of the available "public" slots for a corporation. I wouldn't mind nerfing corporate contracting, the skill, if the removal of the limit on corporate orders was removed. Or even, expanded ... ... ... greatly. Yes, I know. If it is expanded or removed you'd have people setting up dozens of alts for this purpose. So what? Is it better to have dozens of alts doing this in one corporation or having dozens of corporations manned all be one alt?
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Forceflow
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.04.24 17:58:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Omber Zombie
the contract size limit was raised by csm - I'll point out it hasn't been fixed at the next issue review (they agreed to set it to a max equalling the smallest freighter cargo hold).
As for the contract # limits - I know this is going to sound unpopular, but this is a MMOG, there is a point to having corpmates... the choice between doing things solo and doing things as a group should always fall in the favour of the group action, at least imho. (dons the flame suit)
I do like the standing effecting collateral idea in the OP tho
Hurrah on the first point.
Now regarding the second, well this is an MMOG, agreed on the doing things as a group.
However EVE also encourages specialisation. industrial arm, combat arm, etc etc.
Not everyone wants to deal with tons of contracts. Letting one player in the corp specialise in these operations would free up the rest of the folk to be applied where their skills would be better utilised.
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
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Posted - 2009.04.24 18:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Forceflow
Originally by: Omber Zombie
Now regarding the second, well this is an MMOG, agreed on the doing things as a group.
However EVE also encourages specialisation. industrial arm, combat arm, etc etc.
Not everyone wants to deal with tons of contracts. Letting one player in the corp specialise in these operations would free up the rest of the folk to be applied where their skills would be better utilised.
Agreeing with this take on it.
Incidentally, I'd like a better way to track my faction sales and items on contract than "manual entry into a spreadsheet", too (or am I about to look foolish when someone points out that this exists via API?)
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Goonfleet Investment Banking - Bringing you the spoils of Delve!
Search Corestwo and Goonfleet Investment Banking under "issued by" on contracts for the current item list! |
Vested Interest
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Posted - 2009.04.24 18:02:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Vested Interest on 24/04/2009 18:04:13
So if a courier has NPC standings he gets a discount rate on my collateral? What is the point? People either have the money to do couriering as a trade, or they don't.
a) Grind some standings
b) get a multi-bil package at discount rate (sounds like an isk faucet unless you propose to rip off the shipper)
c) keep it
d) profit
e) go to a
And the solution to the limit on public contracts is to talk my corpmates into doing courier gigs?  This is like Fedex saying "no you can only ship 10 packages today, get some vans if you want to ship more."
Look, public courier gigs create content and anything that will let heavy shippers make more of them conveniently is a big plus for the public. There are no good (non-technical) reasons to not have Advanced Contracting with 8 more contracts per level. If you're worried about making this many market contracts available than call it something like "Advanced Courier Dispatch" and make it courier-jobs only.
/edit this was a reply to Omber Zombie
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HawkBlade
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.04.24 18:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: corestwo
Incidentally, I'd like a better way to track my faction sales and items on contract than "manual entry into a spreadsheet", too (or am I about to look foolish when someone points out that this exists via API?)
There is no, to my knowledge, Contract API.
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MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.24 18:32:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Selina Candor
second the lack of contracts to be a utter pita.
And it also happens to be the easiest to fix if CCP would introduce a new skill like 'Advanced contract management', further increasing the number of contracts slots like how the more advanced trade skills work.
I think I'd rather see more granularity in the control. So a couple more skills:
1. Loadmaster : increases the number of courier contracts issuable; level 1=1, level 2=5, level 3=25, level 4=100, level 5=500.
2. Horsetrader : increases the number of "want-to-buy" contracts issuable.
3. Used car salesman : increases the number of "for sale" contracts issuable.
4. Investment banker : increases the number of "loan" contracts issuable.
5. Auctioneer : increases the number of "auction" contracts issuable.
But honestly, much of the (non-courier) contract problems (searching etc.) would go away if CCP simply made faction items appear in the market.
MDD
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wowtard
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Posted - 2009.04.24 19:07:00 -
[22]
Originally by: MailDeadDrop
But honestly, much of the (non-courier) contract problems (searching etc.) would go away if CCP simply made faction items appear in the market.
MDD
fo sure.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.04.24 19:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Omber Zombie
the contract size limit was raised by csm - I'll point out it hasn't been fixed at the next issue review (they agreed to set it to a max equalling the smallest freighter cargo hold).
As for the contract # limits - I know this is going to sound unpopular, but this is a MMOG, there is a point to having corpmates... the choice between doing things solo and doing things as a group should always fall in the favour of the group action, at least imho. (dons the flame suit)
I do like the standing effecting collateral idea in the OP tho
I know.. not big enough IMHO
There are times where I need to ship 4 to 6 full freighter loads of stuff.
And I agree with MDD that much of the contract issues would dissapear if faction items went on the market. |
HawkBlade
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.04.24 19:34:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
I know.. not big enough IMHO. There are times where I need to ship 4 to 6 full freighter loads of stuff.
Now this is a silly point. Unless CCP somehow comes up with a multi-package courier contracting your point is irrelevant. We'd be back to impossible couriers again. Dev should not equal Devolve.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.04.24 19:43:00 -
[25]
Originally by: HawkBlade
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
I know.. not big enough IMHO. There are times where I need to ship 4 to 6 full freighter loads of stuff.
Now this is a silly point. Unless CCP somehow comes up with a multi-package courier contracting your point is irrelevant. We'd be back to impossible couriers again. Dev should not equal Devolve.
my point is, the limit will be at the smallest freighter load possible, which I am to assume is going to be Level 1 freight. Which in an Obby is 787500m3 while level 4 (the most common since most never go to V) is 900000m3.
112500m3 is no small amount.
Sure, it would only result in one or two extra contracts in my situation. But what about the time it takes to split it up and get the m3 amounts correctly?
Is 112500m3 really that database breaking when it likely consists of nothing more than 7 items or 3 in the case of compression stuff? |
HawkBlade
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.04.24 20:39:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
There are times where I need to ship 4 to 6 full freighter loads of stuff.
Found it. We are both on the same side just the above sentence sounded like you were arguing for even greater courier loads to be implemented. It is obvious, now, that was not your intent. Oops
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.04.24 20:53:00 -
[27]
Originally by: HawkBlade
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
There are times where I need to ship 4 to 6 full freighter loads of stuff.
Found it. We are both on the same side just the above sentence sounded like you were arguing for even greater courier loads to be implemented. It is obvious, now, that was not your intent. Oops
Its all good  |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2009.04.24 22:10:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Is 112500m3 really that database breaking when it likely consists of nothing more than 7 items or 3 in the case of compression stuff?
Now, which items are you talking about? It doesn't sound like anything I currently use
On topic:
Frankly, once you're dealing with this quantity of stuff, it becomes easier to set buy orders instead; collateral and load splitting is then taken care of for you (incidentally, how should collateral work for courier contracts that allow load splitting?).
The only reason that I can see for which you would want to use a contract instead would be to avoid the broker fees/sales tax at each end, or avoid using collateral. If it's the former, and you have a single courier or courier corp, perhaps a better approach would be to create a single private WTB item exchange for everything to be hauled? If it's the latter, and you and the courier already trust each other, you might as well use a freeform contract instead.
---
20:1 mineral compression
ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.04.24 22:20:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 24/04/2009 22:23:56
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 24/04/2009 22:20:59
could Margin Trading mechanic work for collateral? so, contractor pays full amount only if he fails contract?
edit: hm, i guess not. goes negative on expendable, transfer stuff, bad. strike that
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Pang Grohl
Gallente
Sudo Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.24 22:24:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 24/04/2009 22:20:59
could Margin Trading mechanic work for collateral? so, contractor pays full amount only if he fails contract?
Probably not. When the margin on a buy order is not met, the order gets canceled. What would happen when a contract is failed and the contractor doesn't have the remainder of the isk for the collateral?
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