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[Important] Interbus, Couriers and player created content.

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Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2009.04.24 14:01:00 - [1] I have been wrapping my head around this one again lately. The main reason being now a new breed of players are again begging the ccp to create a npc automated transporting/courier system. !DONT! I am as tired of the logistics time sink and problem as the rest of the playerbase, but creating this will devaluate the game. I aggree we desperatly need an improvement in the logistic topic, but think there is a better way. Low Saturation Currently we have way to few couriers placed for players to actually fly without ballast or air. The reason for this low saturation is based on a few faults in the game mechanics. If there arent enough couriers to pick up there is no incentive to work as a transport company. To few seriosly want this area because earning is to low in a low demand/saturation market. (Even though the need/demand behind is actually huge) Courier contract barrier Skills: One main reason there arent more couriers place is of that the limit skillwise is backwards. You can make a low number of public contracts, but a huge number of internal corp contracts. This is bad for the whole courier biz becaues such are by def almost always prefered outsourced. Escrow: When placing a courier the escrow has to be valued to avoid being deliberatly defaulted by the contractor. This makes the entry level into the business crazy high. Currently you have low chance to work this area without extreme trust or extreme liquidity. This is a bad system. It only exists because "stealing" is to easy. solution 1 STATEMENT: If you support automated system you just as well could support an no stealing possible system. Or at least making it extremely difficult to steal the content. One way would be to make the package extremely hard to open/hack. Skill barrier etc. Make the package contraband and docking at any npc station would cause aggression and standing hit. and finally make it so the package auto returns to the owner after a month. solution 2 STANDING: Make collateral reduced by issuer to contractors standing. So if trust is already created this is reflected in the collateral. So we need more contracts possible to create and lower pricetag/moneysink on it. This so we can make many and saturate the market for transport pickups. A high impact standing reduction with local station would be a fairly good model, and grant benefits to players strategically. The Escrow and trust problem needs to be fixed. No one is benefiting from current low transport/logistics system not even scammers and pirates. Actually defaulting the contract should be impossible but stealing it by shooting the courier should still be an option. In actuality such fixing could help a player insurance system to develop. A NICE TO HAVE improvement/feature Linking the Auto pilot to the courier system. Thus when you are docked at a station your AP would scan the station couriers for you using presettings. Thus when leaving if there was a courier from current location to the destination it would auto offer the contract. Also a setting of range so it also offered en route and 1,2,3 jumps from destination would be even better. This with the above fix would imho resolve all trucking and transport issues and no interbus would be needed. A small extra would be a way to sort courier contracts when browsing them so it shows isk/jump/m3 and thus transport corps could pull these contracts of regionally in bulk. I hope the perspectives and depth of the above gameplay makes sense.. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.04.24 14:03:00 - [2] Fixing the database issues which prevent item amounts and sizes allowing contracts to be created for sizes up to full freighter would go a long way towards helping the courier system.
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2009.04.24 14:09:00 - [3] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Fixing the database issues which prevent item amounts and sizes allowing contracts to be created for sizes up to full freighter would go a long way towards helping the courier system. Thanks for the addendum :) I forgot that weird limitation. Its a code relic of sorts afaik, to make scams less likely. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Ji Sama	Posted - 2009.04.24 14:16:00 - [4] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Fixing the database issues which prevent item amounts and sizes allowing contracts to be created for sizes up to full freighter would go a long way towards helping the courier system. this the 120000 m3 is killing me.. @caleb. your on a run, i agree with the changes you propose, its simply to easy to steal.. again its the lack of consequence.. a trust (standing) based discount on collateral is a very good idea imo.. i would also like to see this inc. in trading.. as you also mentioned in another post! This is a signature not related to EVE
Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.24 14:21:00 - [5] Interbee is a shipping conglomerate for Goons that I helped create. The idea is that the average goons has very little in the way of empire-side transportation capabilities, combined with constant war-decs, so Interbee was created to handle mass shipping of goods from Jita to our 0.0 hubs. As we've grown, here are a few of our major complaints: 1. Max cargo size. Seriously, its way past time this was fixed. 2. Along with #1, split and recombine courier packages. 3. A link back to the contract in the package description. When your corp has 200 outstanding contracts, its a lot of fun hunting through each one trying to find out which contract matches up with the package you've just delivered. 4. Contract expiration in the item name and an ability to sort by this. Its frustrating to have a bunch of packages in a station, and not know which ones are about to expire and which ones are the brand new ones you just accepted today. 5. Damaged cargo can be added to a courier package, but a courier package with damaged cargo cannot be recontracted. Yea, you figure out how that makes sense. There's probably a couple more I can't remember off the top of my head, I'll add them later if I can think of it.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.04.24 14:26:00 - [6] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Interbee is a shipping conglomerate for Goons that I helped create. The idea is that the average goons has very little in the way of empire-side transportation capabilities, combined with constant war-decs, so Interbee was created to handle mass shipping of goods from Jita to our 0.0 hubs. As we've grown, here are a few of our major complaints: 1. Max cargo size. Seriously, its way past time this was fixed. 2. Along with #1, split and recombine courier packages. 3. A link back to the contract in the package description. When your corp has 200 outstanding contracts, its a lot of fun hunting through each one trying to find out which contract matches up with the package you've just delivered. 4. Contract expiration in the item name and an ability to sort by this. Its frustrating to have a bunch of packages in a station, and not know which ones are about to expire and which ones are the brand new ones you just accepted today. 5. Damaged cargo can be added to a courier package, but a courier package with damaged cargo cannot be recontracted. Yea, you figure out how that makes sense. There's probably a couple more I can't remember off the top of my head, I'll add them later if I can think of it. Being able to remotely managed/split/combine/etc.. items from your corporate/personal hangars
Vested Interest	Posted - 2009.04.24 14:26:00 - [7] Sorry but if your stuff isn't getting delivered than you're doing something wrong. I agree that the limit of 21 open public courier gigs is way too low. I don't agree that any changes to the collateral system are needed or wanted. If you want to discount someone's collateral, than do it. I had an idea way back for personal freight/courier drones that could be tasked to one's own needs or released into a public "transit swarm" where they could be rented on a per job basis. But I think one of CCPs main design principles is that everything has to be moved from A to B by a real person Perhaps a zippy new courier contracts interface that separates them from the crappy old contracts screen? Some minor functional improvements would be really nice.
HawkBlade Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.04.24 14:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau 3. A link back to the contract in the package description. When your corp has 200 outstanding contracts, its a lot of fun hunting through each one trying to find out which contract matches up with the package you've just delivered. I think that it would simply be easiest if you could right click on a courier package and select deliver. No need to hunt for the relevant contract, no need to have a database query displayed to you. Just delivery.
Jackie Fisher Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2009.04.24 14:30:00 - [9] Collateral isnÆt just protection against theft but also against courier laziness/incompetence/extortion. Making the package hard/impossible to steal doesnÆt protect against these other avenues of loss.
Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.24 14:36:00 - [10] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: Sophie Daigneau 3. A link back to the contract in the package description. When your corp has 200 outstanding contracts, its a lot of fun hunting through each one trying to find out which contract matches up with the package you've just delivered. I think that it would simply be easiest if you could right click on a courier package and select deliver. No need to hunt for the relevant contract, no need to have a database query displayed to you. Just delivery. yea, that works too.
Selina Candor Chernobyl Trading Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.24 15:53:00 - [11] second the lack of contracts to be a utter pita. And it also happens to be the easiest to fix if CCP would introduce a new skill like 'Advanced contract management', further increasing the number of contracts slots like how the more advanced trade skills work.
Sakai Kando Gallente Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.24 16:10:00 - [12] More contract slots would make new types of business a lot more feasible. I haven't run into the limit yet, but I know that I easily could if I wanted to implement some of my ideas...
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2009.04.24 17:12:00 - [13] Edited by: corestwo on 24/04/2009 17:13:38 Originally by: Sakai Kando More contract slots would make new types of business a lot more feasible. I haven't run into the limit yet, but I know that I easily could if I wanted to implement some of my ideas... I have a Jita 4-4 office to run the faction dealing side of my business because 21 contracts isn't enough, and guess what? 71 contracts isn't enough either, and the extra ten I'd get from Corp Contracting V wouldn't really help. The aforementioned Advanced Contract Management (and matching Advanced Corporate Contract Management) would help considerably, although even then...currently I have 169 items on contract, waiting to go on contract, or waiting to be moved, and I've had more. Additionally, while it has nothing to do with this specific issue (ie, courier work) it would be awfully nice to see the contract interface in general revamped. Making them en masse is a pain in the neck. As a consumer, searching is a pain in the neck. If you know the one specific item you want to find, great. Maybe, however, you wish to browse? Show me all Dark Blood items, all varieties of available Tachyon Beam Laser, perhaps everything you have available from Chelm. Oops, can't do that, have to pick one specific item. I think the best approach, for auctions/item exchanges anyway, really would be to simply replace the existing system with a market-like interface. I don't see why other contract types couldn't be included in this, either, to be quite honest. ahem Sorry for the thread-jack. ------------- Goonfleet Investment Banking - Bringing you the spoils of Delve! Search Corestwo and Goonfleet Investment Banking under "issued by" on contracts for the current item list!
Vested Interest	Posted - 2009.04.24 17:29:00 - [14] I agree with Corestwo completely. Originally by: Vested Interest I want the contracts interface to work like Ebay instead of Prodigy(tm) Marketplace.
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2009.04.24 17:44:00 - [15] the contract size limit was raised by csm - I'll point out it hasn't been fixed at the next issue review (they agreed to set it to a max equalling the smallest freighter cargo hold). As for the contract # limits - I know this is going to sound unpopular, but this is a MMOG, there is a point to having corpmates... the choice between doing things solo and doing things as a group should always fall in the favour of the group action, at least imho. (dons the flame suit) I do like the standing effecting collateral idea in the OP tho ---------------------- My Blog
HawkBlade Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.04.24 17:51:00 - [16] Originally by: Omber Zombie As for the contract # limits - I know this is going to sound unpopular, but this is a MMOG, there is a point to having corpmates... the choice between doing things solo and doing things as a group should always fall in the favour of the group action, at least imho. (dons the flame suit) Well wouldn't want you to put it on for no reason so here goes: Are you blind, deaf and dumb? [/joke] Okay, now that is out of the way, the problem with the above thought is this: The corporate number of public contracts, the "total" amount", can not be increased due to corporate member participation. One person, with the skill at maximum, consumes the entirety of the available "public" slots for a corporation. I wouldn't mind nerfing corporate contracting, the skill, if the removal of the limit on corporate orders was removed. Or even, expanded ... ... ... greatly. Yes, I know. If it is expanded or removed you'd have people setting up dozens of alts for this purpose. So what? Is it better to have dozens of alts doing this in one corporation or having dozens of corporations manned all be one alt?
Forceflow Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.04.24 17:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Omber Zombie the contract size limit was raised by csm - I'll point out it hasn't been fixed at the next issue review (they agreed to set it to a max equalling the smallest freighter cargo hold). As for the contract # limits - I know this is going to sound unpopular, but this is a MMOG, there is a point to having corpmates... the choice between doing things solo and doing things as a group should always fall in the favour of the group action, at least imho. (dons the flame suit) I do like the standing effecting collateral idea in the OP tho Hurrah on the first point. Now regarding the second, well this is an MMOG, agreed on the doing things as a group. However EVE also encourages specialisation. industrial arm, combat arm, etc etc. Not everyone wants to deal with tons of contracts. Letting one player in the corp specialise in these operations would free up the rest of the folk to be applied where their skills would be better utilised.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2009.04.24 18:01:00 - [18] Originally by: Forceflow Originally by: Omber Zombie Now regarding the second, well this is an MMOG, agreed on the doing things as a group. However EVE also encourages specialisation. industrial arm, combat arm, etc etc. Not everyone wants to deal with tons of contracts. Letting one player in the corp specialise in these operations would free up the rest of the folk to be applied where their skills would be better utilised. Agreeing with this take on it. Incidentally, I'd like a better way to track my faction sales and items on contract than "manual entry into a spreadsheet", too (or am I about to look foolish when someone points out that this exists via API?) ------------- Goonfleet Investment Banking - Bringing you the spoils of Delve! Search Corestwo and Goonfleet Investment Banking under "issued by" on contracts for the current item list!
Vested Interest	Posted - 2009.04.24 18:02:00 - [19] Edited by: Vested Interest on 24/04/2009 18:04:13 So if a courier has NPC standings he gets a discount rate on my collateral? What is the point? People either have the money to do couriering as a trade, or they don't. a) Grind some standings b) get a multi-bil package at discount rate (sounds like an isk faucet unless you propose to rip off the shipper) c) keep it d) profit e) go to a And the solution to the limit on public contracts is to talk my corpmates into doing courier gigs? This is like Fedex saying "no you can only ship 10 packages today, get some vans if you want to ship more." Look, public courier gigs create content and anything that will let heavy shippers make more of them conveniently is a big plus for the public. There are no good (non-technical) reasons to not have Advanced Contracting with 8 more contracts per level. If you're worried about making this many market contracts available than call it something like "Advanced Courier Dispatch" and make it courier-jobs only. /edit this was a reply to Omber Zombie
HawkBlade Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.04.24 18:02:00 - [20] Originally by: corestwo Incidentally, I'd like a better way to track my faction sales and items on contract than "manual entry into a spreadsheet", too (or am I about to look foolish when someone points out that this exists via API?) There is no, to my knowledge, Contract API.
MailDeadDrop Globaltech Industries	Posted - 2009.04.24 18:32:00 - [21] Originally by: Selina Candor second the lack of contracts to be a utter pita. And it also happens to be the easiest to fix if CCP would introduce a new skill like 'Advanced contract management', further increasing the number of contracts slots like how the more advanced trade skills work. I think I'd rather see more granularity in the control. So a couple more skills: 1. Loadmaster : increases the number of courier contracts issuable; level 1=1, level 2=5, level 3=25, level 4=100, level 5=500. 2. Horsetrader : increases the number of "want-to-buy" contracts issuable. 3. Used car salesman : increases the number of "for sale" contracts issuable. 4. Investment banker : increases the number of "loan" contracts issuable. 5. Auctioneer : increases the number of "auction" contracts issuable. But honestly, much of the (non-courier) contract problems (searching etc.) would go away if CCP simply made faction items appear in the market. MDD
wowtard	Posted - 2009.04.24 19:07:00 - [22] Originally by: MailDeadDrop But honestly, much of the (non-courier) contract problems (searching etc.) would go away if CCP simply made faction items appear in the market. MDD fo sure.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.04.24 19:29:00 - [23] Originally by: Omber Zombie the contract size limit was raised by csm - I'll point out it hasn't been fixed at the next issue review (they agreed to set it to a max equalling the smallest freighter cargo hold). As for the contract # limits - I know this is going to sound unpopular, but this is a MMOG, there is a point to having corpmates... the choice between doing things solo and doing things as a group should always fall in the favour of the group action, at least imho. (dons the flame suit) I do like the standing effecting collateral idea in the OP tho I know.. not big enough IMHO There are times where I need to ship 4 to 6 full freighter loads of stuff. And I agree with MDD that much of the contract issues would dissapear if faction items went on the market.
HawkBlade Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.04.24 19:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I know.. not big enough IMHO. There are times where I need to ship 4 to 6 full freighter loads of stuff. Now this is a silly point. Unless CCP somehow comes up with a multi-package courier contracting your point is irrelevant. We'd be back to impossible couriers again. Dev should not equal Devolve.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.04.24 19:43:00 - [25] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I know.. not big enough IMHO. There are times where I need to ship 4 to 6 full freighter loads of stuff. Now this is a silly point. Unless CCP somehow comes up with a multi-package courier contracting your point is irrelevant. We'd be back to impossible couriers again. Dev should not equal Devolve. my point is, the limit will be at the smallest freighter load possible, which I am to assume is going to be Level 1 freight. Which in an Obby is 787500m3 while level 4 (the most common since most never go to V) is 900000m3. 112500m3 is no small amount. Sure, it would only result in one or two extra contracts in my situation. But what about the time it takes to split it up and get the m3 amounts correctly? Is 112500m3 really that database breaking when it likely consists of nothing more than 7 items or 3 in the case of compression stuff?
HawkBlade Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.04.24 20:39:00 - [26] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria There are times where I need to ship 4 to 6 full freighter loads of stuff. Found it. We are both on the same side just the above sentence sounded like you were arguing for even greater courier loads to be implemented. It is obvious, now, that was not your intent. Oops
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.04.24 20:53:00 - [27] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: Kazzac Elentria There are times where I need to ship 4 to 6 full freighter loads of stuff. Found it. We are both on the same side just the above sentence sounded like you were arguing for even greater courier loads to be implemented. It is obvious, now, that was not your intent. Oops Its all good
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2009.04.24 22:10:00 - [28] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Is 112500m3 really that database breaking when it likely consists of nothing more than 7 items or 3 in the case of compression stuff? Now, which items are you talking about? It doesn't sound like anything I currently use On topic: Frankly, once you're dealing with this quantity of stuff, it becomes easier to set buy orders instead; collateral and load splitting is then taken care of for you (incidentally, how should collateral work for courier contracts that allow load splitting?). The only reason that I can see for which you would want to use a contract instead would be to avoid the broker fees/sales tax at each end, or avoid using collateral. If it's the former, and you have a single courier or courier corp, perhaps a better approach would be to create a single private WTB item exchange for everything to be hauled? If it's the latter, and you and the courier already trust each other, you might as well use a freeform contract instead. --- 20:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.04.24 22:20:00 - [29] Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 24/04/2009 22:23:56 Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 24/04/2009 22:20:59 could Margin Trading mechanic work for collateral? so, contractor pays full amount only if he fails contract? edit: hm, i guess not. goes negative on expendable, transfer stuff, bad. strike that
Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2009.04.24 22:24:00 - [30] Originally by: Jagga Spikes Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 24/04/2009 22:20:59 could Margin Trading mechanic work for collateral? so, contractor pays full amount only if he fails contract? Probably not. When the margin on a buy order is not met, the order gets canceled. What would happen when a contract is failed and the contractor doesn't have the remainder of the isk for the collateral?
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2009.04.24 23:02:00 - [31] Originally by: HawkBlade The corporate number of public contracts, the "total" amount", can not be increased due to corporate member participation. One person, with the skill at maximum, consumes the entirety of the available "public" slots for a corporation. bah, I thought that got fixed - in that case, yeah, raising the max corp limit should definitely be done. I can see plenty of room to expand the Corp Management skillset for some new skills (Corporate Logistics, adds 25 extra corp created contracts per lvl) and so on. ---------------------- My Blog
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2009.04.24 23:12:00 - [32] Originally by: Vested Interest So if a courier has NPC standings he gets a discount rate on my collateral? What is the point? People either have the money to do couriering as a trade, or they don't. other stuff I was under the impression the OP was talking about personal or corporate standings, not NPC standings. NPC standings would (as you pointed out) be easily exploitable. Quote: And the solution to the limit on public contracts is to talk my corpmates into doing courier gigs? This is like Fedex saying "no you can only ship 10 packages today, get some vans if you want to ship more." No, it's like fedex saying "crap, we have too many orders to send out, quick hire some more people with vans" Quote: Look, public courier gigs create content and anything that will let heavy shippers make more of them conveniently is a big plus for the public. There are no good (non-technical) reasons to not have Advanced Contracting with 8 more contracts per level. If you're worried about making this many market contracts available than call it something like "Advanced Courier Dispatch" and make it courier-jobs only. actually the reason it's not good is due to the insane amount of spam contracts already out there. The UI for contracts (which is pretty horrendous) will break even further under the deluge of extra contract spam that this would allow. I personally don't know why open contract wtb/wts/auction and courier contracts even use the same systems, it seems unintuitive to me. The 'simple' fix would be to separate the 2 rather than just increase the max number of contracts creatable. ---------------------- My Blog
Jotobar	Posted - 2009.04.24 23:29:00 - [33] with that said... I'm still looking for a personal bulk dhl service. mail inamge.
Vanki Stormchaser InterBee GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.24 23:51:00 - [34] Edited by: Vanki Stormchaser on 24/04/2009 23:54:39 I run Goonswarm's consumer-level logistics service so I deal with courier contracts more than I care to That said, the biggest and easiest changes CCP could make would be: 1. Adding a size column to the items tab as well as corp assets 2. Linking the contract to the package and vice versa. Pulling up the courier contract should have a button saying "locate package" and right clicking the package should have a link named "View contract" 3. Naming the packages more usefully. Merely including the name of the contracting character would be very useful. Also when creating a courier contract, allow the player to search for stations BY SOLAR SYSTEM rather than station name.
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2009.04.25 07:16:00 - [35] This post has yielded a few nice comments and additions to the issue, but it seems a lot still fail to see the core of the point I was trying to make. WE NEED UNLIMETED(almost) COURIER CONTRACTs The reason is that even smaller packages of all types should be flooding the regions. In theory there is never enough time to transport all the stuff around you AND corp would like and need. Logistics in EVE SUCKS. When I buy something it would not just be nice, it would be logical that I could maybe check if I could do a bit of trucking from that location. This will naturally become normal if we get low priced and high volume couriers. Simply flying around with dead air is a serious waste. Add to that the effect isk/jump/m3 so professional truckers can sort and pick up bulk couriers and honestly ALL problems with logistics will slowly go away. @OZ ofc things should be motivated to work as a group effort, but trying to enforce it with rather stupid limitations to mechanics like courier orders or even market orders is a bad thing. Only good reasoning would be server load issues. The other arguments are simply wrong. Your always limited by ingame time to manage your orders, or set your contracts. You will always have HUGE advantages doing these things in group endeavours. Sure a gradual balance can be usefull, but when someone invests most their skill points and playing time on these things they should not feel limited by mechanics thats demotivating in the end. Also in these cases the balance is simply wrong and counter to logic. Makes no sense that corps can internally make loads of contracts but publically and business generating they are limited. On contract size. I would like to know why ccp cant work on making stacks able to be split in some way to less bulky packages. If nothing else a simple sizing feature upon creation, so you could select everything for a full freighter load but have the client split them into unique contracts with ID marking .. Much like when your making zip or rar archives. Doing that manually is bloody hellish time sink.. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Kitchie Gallente Kitchie's Logistics and Marketing Corp	Posted - 2009.04.25 08:27:00 - [36] My bread and butter business is Logistics and couriering so it's interesting to read the ideas of people here, which are primarily from the issuer side. Comments and thoughts: Hunting for the right contract to complete is a major pain. Yes please allow us to right-click the package and have a "Complete" option or "View Contract" for that item Separating courier from other contracts make sense except that with the current size limitation, a large number of the courier jobs I do, have to be done through Item Exchange as they are often far larger than 120km3 and often multiple freighter loads e.g. Cap Ship Component Shipping. Issuer assigns goods to me for collateral price; I ship to destination and contract back at Collateral + reward Plastic wraps are pointless, we can see what's in the package, even if it's in a container, and being able to split packages would mean there would be no need for a max size. But this would cause other probs: You can courier unpackaged ships but you can't put unpackaged ships into a freighter. Courier is only way. You can courier small/different cans but they can't be put into a freighter otherwise. Collateral size is not a barrier to couriering. The reason jobs don't get done is that they don't pay enough. There should be a bonus option for packages delivered within a specified time frame. Many people would be willing to pay more if they could guarantee that a job would be delivered quickly. Oh and there's one major bugbear I have with the current system. I have several characters that do the couriering and often one character will take a package part of the way and then contract the package to another character to complete it. But if there's a can or a damaged item in the courier, I'm not allowed to make an exchange contract with it! The only way I can pass it on is through direct exchange! I've even rented an office in obscure stations just so that I can transfer one package to another char! Ok, from the courier side, those are the only issues that I can think of offhand. The current system could definitely do with improvement, that's for sure, but I don't like the standing/hacking/unopenable etc. ideas, they're really not necessary. Kitchie Dynasty Banking - DBANK
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2009.04.25 10:12:00 - [37] ive really enjoyed this thread and i couldnt agree more that the current courier contract system could do with an over haul. i regularly ship millions of m3 of gear around eve and never use contracts. mainly cos im worried about scams. i`d very much love to see the collatrol removed from the system make the packages unbreakable and make them return to the original owner after 5 days if undelivered. with a small fine for the contract acceptor payed when accepting and returned on completion. the barrier to entry and the risk of scams in courier contracts is way to high in my opinion. if these changes were implimented i`d very likly search for contracts m self just incase im going that way and would be much more likly to put up contracts too. the main reason i dont think ccp will bother with these changes tho is that jita lag is for the most part fixed and the interbus npc system they had proposed was only a possable fix to that issue. these changes would be much better than an npc system. when i first started playing i used to make a decent living doing npc trading that market is pretty much dead these days, and i think it would add back to the game a lost element.
HawkBlade Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.04.25 12:54:00 - [38] Originally by: zacuis i`d very much love to see the collatrol removed from the system make the packages unbreakable and make them return to the original owner after 5 days if undelivered. with a small fine for the contract acceptor payed when accepting and returned on completion. This will never happen. It should never happen as well. And, sorry to say this, but if you don't understand why... go back to Wow. Originally by: zacuis the barrier to entry and the risk of scams in courier contracts is way to high in my opinion. if these changes were implimented i`d very likly search for contracts m self just incase im going that way and would be much more likly to put up contracts too. If you fear courier contracts because you don't want to get scammed then it is not scams you are afraid of, it is your own ignorance. A courier contract can not scam you if you read it and check the pertinent details: How much collateral? How much reward? Where to? Fairly simple but I grant it may be out of reach for some people. Sorry, I just hate "Protect me from being stupid" appeals to authority.
Vested Interest	Posted - 2009.04.25 13:16:00 - [39] Originally by: zacuis i regularly ship millions of m3 of gear around eve and never use contracts. mainly cos im worried about scams. agreeing with Shar here, this doesn't make any sense at all.
Trading Bunnz Equatorial Industires Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.04.25 13:22:00 - [40] I do lots of logistics as most of you already know. The only way I've found for it to work for me without being a stupid time sink, is to find someone I trust implicitly to do my long haul runs, using item exchange contracts to deliver it at each end. No other way, with the current system, works. If I have, for example, 3m/m3 of stuff to haul, setting up contracts to haul that is just not feasible. There are a few suggestions here to fix that which is good. The other logistics I do are time critical. The earlier suggestion, to offer a "bonus" amount for quick delivery is awesome. When I need time critical stuff delivered from hubs, I usually spam the contract in local and state I'll pay a bonus if delivered before <x>. Sure, that causes plenty of discussion, but there are people who know now that when I say I'll pay an extra 10m for delivery in 6 hours, they get an extra 10m when they complete it. Courier contracts should be simple from the issuer. Choose the stuff you want to send, choose the collateral, choose the reward, choose the destination. Done. No size limits. No item number limits. Once someone accepts the contract, they should be able to simply choose to split the single package up into multiple packages to fit their chosen ship. Heck, a right click "Fit to active ship" would do, putting a part of the package inside and leaving the rest for later. Removing the restrictions on courier contracts as they stand right now and adding a way for the acceptor to split up the package, you dont need to add more contract slots and risk the backlash that my come from that. FRPB Shares in Default
ingenting 20th Legion	Posted - 2009.04.25 15:27:00 - [41] someone call CSM and make them bash CCP for this *****ed interbus idea _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu BAAOOM*... Told you, newb."
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2009.04.25 15:33:00 - [42] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: zacuis i`d very much love to see the collatrol removed from the system make the packages unbreakable and make them return to the original owner after 5 days if undelivered. with a small fine for the contract acceptor payed when accepting and returned on completion. This will never happen. It should never happen as well. And, sorry to say this, but if you don't understand why... go back to Wow. Originally by: zacuis the barrier to entry and the risk of scams in courier contracts is way to high in my opinion. if these changes were implimented i`d very likly search for contracts m self just incase im going that way and would be much more likly to put up contracts too. If you fear courier contracts because you don't want to get scammed then it is not scams you are afraid of, it is your own ignorance. A courier contract can not scam you if you read it and check the pertinent details: How much collateral? How much reward? Where to? Fairly simple but I grant it may be out of reach for some people. Sorry, I just hate "Protect me from being stupid" appeals to authority. first; Well asking for fully run npc interbus system is SO MUCH WORSE. If ccp grant the whiners that and steal player business, they might as well make current system scam free. Personally I know what you mean, but since there have been rumors that interbus would come, then I have to say I would rather want that solution. second; I think what he meant was current courier market is flooded a bit to much with bait like contracts and other attempts to scam. As an actual serious courier market its rather low saturated, and most as many state use contacting pros when needed. Thus the small ad hoc convenience runs arent in there. This makes sense since the skill limit is meh.. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.04.30 08:12:00 - [43] On a somewhat related note (in aid of thread recycling),, there's something I don't get about reward expectations for Courier contracts. I've always run with the thought in my head that rewards are based off of volume shipped and distance. Given that, I've just posted collateral to cover the cost of the goods I wanted shipped. For giggles I threw the contract onto Jita local one day in the vain hope someone would take the courier contract. Someone posted "I feel sorry for whoever takes that contract", so I asked why. Paraphrasing, "The collateral is way too much compared to the reward". I'd never actually heard that before so I chased up some channels/groups which are common grounds for haulers looking for contracts and others posting courier contracts. Looking over the rules I saw "Minimum reward of advertised contracts must be at least 1% of collateral". Huh?? Now alright, if that's the market I'm just going to buy a freighter again and be done with it, but that just doesn't make sense to me. For reference, a recent courier contract I put up was 15,000m3, 1 bil collateral, 1.5 mil reward, 3 jumps, which is about the same ratio I put up for the ones where my reward wasn't enough. I put up another contract recently too, 120,000m3, 500 mil collateral, 3 mil reward, 3 jumps. I thought that rate was rather low compared to the volume, but those ones got snapped up pretty quick and done. Hauling 120,000m3 is far more effort than hauling 15,000m3, and collateral is collateral. If you've got it, great, if you don't, well, that's some of the market you can't enter because of the barrier of entry, just like daytrading. Both contracts were three jumps, the smaller contract leaves room for more contracts to load up and take (10 times) and if they were both done in a freighter, both would be done in the same time. Before I go off on a sojurn to create a formula to calculate an ISKM3 formula to divide my reward budget across a volume/collateral ratio, is it just me who thinks it's odd to refuse a contract based on a Collateral/Reward ratio rather than a Jumps/Volume/Reward ratio?
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.04.30 08:38:00 - [44] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria my point is, the limit will be at the smallest freighter load possible, which I am to assume is going to be Level 1 freight. Which in an Obby is 787500m3 while level 4 (the most common since most never go to V) is 900000m3. When we discussed that in Iceland back in January, we agreed that it was best to go by level 0 skills. Hence, that will be 720.000 m3, which is the capacity of a fenrir. They better do it soon.
Roger Kiyosaki	Posted - 2009.04.30 10:10:00 - [45] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs I've always run with the thought in my head that rewards are based off of volume shipped and distance. Given that, I've just posted collateral to cover the cost of the goods I wanted shipped. [..] For reference, a recent courier contract I put up was 15,000m3, 1 bil collateral, 1.5 mil reward, 3 jumps, which is about the same ratio I put up for the ones where my reward wasn't enough. I put up another contract recently too, 120,000m3, 500 mil collateral, 3 mil reward, 3 jumps. I thought that rate was rather low compared to the volume, but those ones got snapped up pretty quick and done. Hauling 120,000m3 is far more effort than hauling 15,000m3, and collateral is collateral. If you've got it, great, if you don't, well, that's some of the market you can't enter because of the barrier of entry, just like daytrading. Both contracts were three jumps, the smaller contract leaves room for more contracts to load up and take (10 times) and if they were both done in a freighter, both would be done in the same time. You have to understand the factors that apply to the haulers as well. For a trader the main question comes down to how much profit you are prepared to offer per unit sold, and how much you need to cover your investment in case your package does not arrive. For haulers, there is also the angle of capital at risk from the time they accept the contract until delivery. The more collateral you want, the more valuable your cargo presumably is, and hence, the more likely it is that someone will blow them up (even in high sec) if given the chance.
Anas Damona KOM TV	Posted - 2009.04.30 10:19:00 - [46] Rather than creating NPC couriers to move player goods, why not have NPC courier contracts appear amongst the existing ones? If they were indistinguishable from the 'real' ones, then no-one would know. The contents could be regular trade goods, or worthless novelty items, like Pax Amarria, pop-up edition or some such. That would gives courier players more to work on, and would be a major disincentive to steal.
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:21:00 - [47] Originally by: Anas Damona Rather than creating NPC couriers to move player goods, why not have NPC courier contracts appear amongst the existing ones? If they were indistinguishable from the 'real' ones, then no-one would know. The contents could be regular trade goods, or worthless novelty items, like Pax Amarria, pop-up edition or some such. That would gives courier players more to work on, and would be a major disincentive to steal. A nice thought, but I think that will limit and destroy the chances of high level player developed content. If shipping is to really become an integrated part of EVE, and not a weird side thing that people shrug at, then it needs to be a bit more complex potentially. This topic is really mainly about the right tools and features to make the result self governed and self regulatory. We dont want EVE to be less player to player interactive, but more so, and this also means the opertunities of creating brand new and novel businesses. I will give you that anonymity might be an interesting feature, so say there is no standing to and from involved parties a noname available tag would be nice, this could also be added into the current scc transactions with some interesting consequences..
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.04.30 12:03:00 - [48] Originally by: LaVista Vista When we discussed that in Iceland back in January, we agreed that it was best to go by level 0 skills. Hence, that will be 720.000 m3, which is the capacity of a fenrir. They better do it soon. Any particular reason why? Just doesn't seem like a million limit would be all that much of a database killer compared to 720k
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.04.30 13:05:00 - [49] The only thing I want in Couriers is the ability to Link contracts to. Lets say you want to move 1 Billion units of Trit. Well that could require a 84 different Contracts. What you do is select all the Trit, Select Contract, Select courier, Put the destination in, blah blah blah, then The contract system Automatically generates "Linked" contracts. It'll say - Master Bill of Lading Qty of 84, 120,000m3 containers Collateral - 5 Billion ISK Reward, 50 Million ISK Target shipping time - Total ship ship weight, 100,000,000m3 If a person accepts the contract they get 84 "Stackable" boxes in their hanger, which they can then move. This only uses one contract slot, and the entire thing needs to be moved in order to collect your reward and get your collateral back. It would still have an individual item size limit of 120,000m3 but it would make Courier contracts not so painful to use. Amarr for Life
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2009.04.30 13:18:00 - [50] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: zacuis i`d very much love to see the collatrol removed from the system make the packages unbreakable and make them return to the original owner after 5 days if undelivered. with a small fine for the contract acceptor payed when accepting and returned on completion. This will never happen. It should never happen as well. And, sorry to say this, but if you don't understand why... go back to Wow. Originally by: zacuis the barrier to entry and the risk of scams in courier contracts is way to high in my opinion. if these changes were implimented i`d very likly search for contracts m self just incase im going that way and would be much more likly to put up contracts too. If you fear courier contracts because you don't want to get scammed then it is not scams you are afraid of, it is your own ignorance. A courier contract can not scam you if you read it and check the pertinent details: How much collateral? How much reward? Where to? Fairly simple but I grant it may be out of reach for some people. Sorry, I just hate "Protect me from being stupid" appeals to authority. ive never played wow. i was susggesting such changes as a replacement for the interbus npc solution that ccp still has on its drawing board. also im not so much afraid of being scammed as i am bored of searching threw endless pages of scam contracts to find worth while stuff. i admit not the best wording on my part there mind. i wasnt really asking for protecting from being stupid as i rarly am with isk anyway. as suggesting a better system than interbus
Vested Interest	Posted - 2009.04.30 13:55:00 - [51] in my experience the filters available on the contracts screen don't do much for couriers looking for work. There need to be filters for min/max jumps, payment, and collateral. In real life and games I despise user interfaces that were thrown together to do the bare minimum functionality. CSM really needs to bring this up again and again.
Dzil Caldari Tritanium Science and Research	Posted - 2009.04.30 14:36:00 - [52] I think an NPC courier system could add value to EVE, but in a very limited capacity. I'd design it as such: Goods move 1 jump per day. No low/null sec jumps. Pay by unit volume. Skills might effect maximum to move. Where I would use this most, honestly, would be to bypass Jita. Suicide ganking aside, the system lag and lame spam is nearly unbearable. Using a combination of marketing skills and interbus, I could shop for items in Jita, and deliver them to Perimeter/Maurasi, from which I could then guide them to their destinations, and never set foot in Jita. However, I can see too a cause for concern that I'm sidestepping a major choke point. Were I at war, this would be a significant advantage in securly moving my goods past dangerous territory without risk. What would be really cool is if the goods were moved by an NPC spawn, scheduled at a time of your choice, and you could pay for varying levels of escort (or fly escort yourself). That way they still aren't invulnerable. Also, a couple notes on your courier contract improvement recommendations: 1. No default, but can still steal/destroy: No deal. The second I can let an alt/corpmate destroy my ship and take the goods, it's trivially more complicated then just failing the contract. The second I can't, there's a godmode where I can transport T2 BPOs and other multi-billion isk goods at very minimal risk. 2. NPC standings affect collateral: I'm not sure how this would work. Is the NPC covering the difference if you default the contract? This would seem to create a value for standings that you would have to regularly liquidate by failing contracts to maximize. Is the contactor covering the difference? Then I'm simply going to raise collateral so that in the end I get back the value of my cargo if the loot is dropped. 3. Adding more contacts: I'm all for it, though I currently don't need them as mine turn over pretty fast.
Dzil Caldari Tritanium Science and Research	Posted - 2009.04.30 14:39:00 - [53] Originally by: Anas Damona Rather than creating NPC couriers to move player goods, why not have NPC courier contracts appear amongst the existing ones? If they were indistinguishable from the 'real' ones, then no-one would know. The contents could be regular trade goods, or worthless novelty items, like Pax Amarria, pop-up edition or some such. That would gives courier players more to work on, and would be a major disincentive to steal. Again, you can see what's inside the containers before commiting to steal it, and as for the other purpose, this game does have a couple hundred courier agents already to basically do exactly that, without cluttering the contact interface.
Dzil Caldari Tritanium Science and Research	Posted - 2009.04.30 14:48:00 - [54] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Before I go off on a sojurn to create a formula to calculate an ISKM3 formula to divide my reward budget across a volume/collateral ratio, is it just me who thinks it's odd to refuse a contract based on a Collateral/Reward ratio rather than a Jumps/Volume/Reward ratio? I think both are a factor to consider. Remember, nothing in EVE is risk free - if you put a bil collateral on that contract, the guy is carting a bil worth of goods through space. If it's a well known system, he'll more than likely be scanned, and if they price is right and the time is wrong, he's open for a suicide gank. So asking at least 1% of the goods carried as a reward, especially in a big "shoot me now" freighter sized target, isn't being that unreasonable.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.05.01 15:28:00 - [55] Lots of good ideas about contracts here, I hope you are taking notes Oz :) My wish list: Right click deliver Right click "show info" to show contract not a plain size window Have the system delivery option in local space like courier NPC contracts (they are still courier so wth? :) ) Have some way of being able to search assets or search deliveries. On the Contract menu have some check box or something to show you picked the item up or its in your cargo hold. 18+ contracts and none of the boxes say where they are from... did I miss 1 in this system or that system <scratches head looking at the manifest>

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