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Viktor Raybach	Posted - 2009.04.28 21:58:00 - [31] Edited by: Viktor Raybach on 28/04/2009 22:00:44 Will post with some more detailed thoughts later but in no particular order. While 3% is lower than any investment I look for, I'll invest solely to help keep Ricdic involved with the secondary market side of the game as he, OZ, Dark Shikari and Femintaki were some of the real trailblazers of it back in '06. That and shares in titan production appeals to me on a visceral level. I'd also be willing to take on the work of a directorship but Kazzac and Shar have a more prolonged history with Ricdic/MD so i'd be surprised not to see them with the position.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.04.28 22:06:00 - [32] Ric, I remember seeing a auction thread for a titan bpc in the sell forum awhile ago, how long did it take for you to get rid of it and for what price? Blueprint Store
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2009.04.28 23:07:00 - [33] Originally by: Researching Duchess Ok so the business is extremely simple. The copying of Titan BPO's to sell completed BPCs. This has been tried and tested through the EBANK subsidiary corporation TXD with very healthy results here. I was pleasantly surprised to see buyout offers taken on these prints, it took a week to sell off the whole stock (4 bpo's) This represented a very high rate of return (equivalent of almost 9% per month) Have a read Brock. Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.04.28 23:53:00 - [34] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: Ricdic Well due to the control tower only needing literally 2 advanced mobile labs on it to support 6 bpo's it means I can use a large and put a massive defence up. Many multiples of each hardener and a decent amount of guns/jammers etc that should scare the hell out of anybody. Well, if I had to suggest (in the original planning) a solution I would have one corporation for isk dividend paying and another for the actual BPO/C work. The trick for lockdowns would be to have several trusted(worthy) worthy individuals hold the shares in the BPO corp, for security purposes. Corporation A: - Publicly traded shares - Used for dividend payments - Used for corporate voting Corporation B: - Private shares held by trustees - Used solely for lockdown votes decided by Corporation A The one step removal would alleviate operational security concerns. This setup might make transitional to another manager slightly more hairy though, but I agree with your assertion that it would add a layer of obfuscation thereby increasing the security slightly.
HawkBlade Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.04.29 00:26:00 - [35] It seems that my own time is at a premium. Due to some additional information/notices coming at this time I regretfully must remove my name from any consideration in this matter.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.04.29 05:06:00 - [36] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 29/04/2009 05:11:25 You're probably worried about not getting enough investors but you'd have less headaches if you issue shares via a holdings corp and carry out the actual research in another corp, at a hidden location (the higher the system security the better). I doubt that someone will attack the POS, they might keep an eye on your operation and gank your alts whenever you decide to reap the harvest. I would gladly invest in this as it makes for a great passive revenue source, not at this time though, as the priority goes to scaling up my own project. P.S. Shadarle is active, you might want to talk to him. Black Sun Empire
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.04.29 05:14:00 - [37] Well, this looks like a sound investment! ...Particularly if you go for something similar to Shar's obfuscation idea to protect the location of the POS. To me, it seems like a good idea just to eliminate a potential worry that would be an irritation to you. If you need me to throw in an alt or be a trustee I'd be honoured to do so. Although 3% is way too low a return for me to throw significant amounts in to this (I'd have to pull isk out of higher earning vehicles to do so), I do believe it's the right rate of return for the level of security and the reputation behind it and for that reason I will buy in to it at some level. Good luck with your venture!
Researching Duchess	Posted - 2009.04.29 12:17:00 - [38] Ok I can use a holding corp which seems the most comfortable option to investors. I would have preferred it the other way but I can see how using the main corp could be bad if someone was heavily intent on damaging/hurting the bond. Ok, so if we use a separate corporation we would need a group of trusted volunteers to act in an auditory function, mainly making sure unlock votes weren't actioned without acceptance etc. I know a few have put their hands up so they can be contacted. These people should only need a share holding, not director position. One of the EBANK staff already has a holding character in the corp for hit by a bus strategy and a POS is already available. I will chase down who it is and let everyone know. Thanks for all the feedback so far guys, there has been surprisingly little negative comments here. I felt I could probably get away with a basic post with limited information but didn't want to set a bad example for new people looking for investment. I generally won't look twice at an IPO/Bond without similar levels of detail as provided here. Once we have a bit more input and a few more volunteers to hold voting shares (would suggest maybe 8 people total), we can proceed. I want the first batch sold out by the 7th of May (this will be a minimum bond of 100b to cover the 1000 shares created in a default corporation. The actual bond total will be 2 Titan BPO's so about 115b or so. Depending on demand/interest it might be further extended (beyond 2 bpo's, not past 7 days) but I want a slow start to make sure it doesn't have an affect on EBANK (also same with DBANK, Manalapan has a banking area on our forums he can post on if it causes him any dramas and I will limit this accordingly).
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.04.29 15:10:00 - [39] I have a question; how much of EBANK's isk could you walk away with, if you chose to do so today? Is it more or less than the isk being collected for this bond?
Trading Bunnz Equatorial Industires Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.04.29 15:17:00 - [40] Willing to sit on shares and monitor votes. And congrats on the new rugrat, I didn't know that was coming, when did you find out? FRPB Shares in Default
Emywn Vanya Caldari Redemption or Retribution Exxxotic	Posted - 2009.04.29 15:17:00 - [41] Its more. ----------------------- The answer is 42
PublicRelations Kwint Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2009.04.29 15:47:00 - [42] Originally by: Stardust CEO I have a question; how much of EBANK's isk could you walk away with, if you chose to do so today? Is it more or less than the isk being collected for this bond? Ricdic has 2x to 3x more EBANK cash in his wallet than the totality of this bond, not that it matters. He's the founder of EBANK, done so much for the community and genuinely enjoys this work. All of those are much better reasons to trust him than the fact that he hold a hundred or two billion in EBANK's money, arguably, that's actually a reason not to trust him. Link to the discussion of asset holding in EBANK. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Bodrul Caldari Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.04.29 22:20:00 - [43] Originally by: Researching Duchess Edited by: Researching Duchess on 28/04/2009 19:31:45 Currently in discussion phase. No funds are to be sent, no reservations are to be made. Discussion phase will last 24-48 hours after which this post will be updated. sounds good i will be looking into this (want to invest in something and this looks stable) ............................... You Don't Need No Reason Or A Three Piece Suit To Argue The Truth ...............................
Researching Duchess	Posted - 2009.04.30 00:24:00 - [44] Originally by: Stardust CEO I have a question; how much of EBANK's isk could you walk away with, if you chose to do so today? Is it more or less than the isk being collected for this bond? If I were to walk away now I could probably take 300b off EBANK. It's part of the reason I will make sure to move 150b or so to Hexxx and Mr Horizontal before I start taking investor funds, to show it would be pointless to scam :) Can't be too careful.
Researching Duchess	Posted - 2009.04.30 00:27:00 - [45] Originally by: Trading Bunnz Willing to sit on shares and monitor votes. And congrats on the new rugrat, I didn't know that was coming, when did you find out? hehe great. We found out back near end of last year, baby is due on June 11th (scheduled c-section) and we sign settlement on the new house on June 12th. So for 5 days I need to look after our son whilst wife is in hospital whilst moving house and setting up new baby's room (my taste is dreadful) But yeh I will get you and some of the others in this thread to do the share thing just finalising a few things on my end first.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries	Posted - 2009.04.30 00:40:00 - [46] offtopic... congrats on the baby, you are about to experience something almost as great as EVE! Quote: The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
Selina Candor Chernobyl Trading Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.30 01:47:00 - [47] We'll need photos!
Jackie Fisher Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2009.04.30 09:00:00 - [48] Originally by: Researching Duchess Ok, so I have been doing this as part of a subsidiary of EBANK. Just to clarify, I take this to mean you have been running a similar Titan BPO copying business for EBank. If so, what will happen to this business? Will the new venture be in competition with the existing Ebank subsidiary?
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.04.30 09:43:00 - [49] Originally by: Jackie Fisher Will the new venture be in competition with the existing Ebank subsidiary? Common sense says: Yes! Ricdic says: No, there is enough demand. Economics says: Without an increase in demand, an increase in supply will cause a decrease in price and thus deflation in the market. Common sense also says: Now that it's out how EBANK operates, the market will FURTHER saturate, amplifying the deflationary effect. The conclusion is simple. With the rapid rate of monetary inflation, we will see an increase in saturation as the people with lots of ISK, gain more ISK. This is indisputable but in the case where there's also a considerable increase in demand. A such statement is purely speculative, mind you. Large alliances(And I have my sources) has in-house production and their cost is much lower all the way around, in terms of production. As such, there's direct competition in that aspect too. That means that the target audience will be solely be small alliances. However with the prevalence of alliances with 10+ titans, there's no incentive for small alliances to get their own. Leave alone the fact that they can get their titans cheaper from their friends.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.04.30 12:20:00 - [50] LVV In the past 6 months I've started to see a transition of capital production to lay in the hands of independent contractors instead of maintained solely in the hands of alliances. It's started with small time outfits and has slowly grown over time to include larger alliances farming out production services to whoever they can get a contract from. I can only guess as to the reasons why this shift has occurred, but I know from previous experience in the T1 and T2 market handling direct contracts it was to alleviate the logistical nightmare that is running an alliance.
Bloody Rabbit	Posted - 2009.04.30 13:21:00 - [51] I believe one of the reasons alliances are moving copying and research of the supercaps is the corp theft that has been happening. With my alts or mains? I was looking at getting into titan copying but the cost are so great for a single person to buy a BPO I have been sitting on the fence as to which BPO to buy. Is the goal of this IPO to get 3 different titans at once or that part of the expansion?
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.04.30 13:36:00 - [52] There is a reason why this is in Discussion phase and not a straight up Bond. People in this thread should be aware that there is a EBANK Board of Directors Vote for the EBANK operation that is currently going on. While this would remain separate, the current EBANK operation would work along side the Public Bond, IE, the current EBANK operation would be leasing out the slot space to the Public Bond to the tune of 50% of the expenses. What does this mean for the public bond? 1) No hardware purchase 2) 50% cheaper monthly operations Although this is good for EBANK as well, the loss of the POS would be 100% loss for EBANK. The vote is to allow the current operation to share available slots. This may not pass, this would increase the Bond amount to also cover the cost of the POS and defense hardware, other costs would be research/copy Implants etc. I thought I should mention this as it should be included in the discussion thread as it is pertinent to the overall startup cost. Amarr for Life
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2009.04.30 13:48:00 - [53] Originally by: SencneS There is a reason why this is in Discussion phase and not a straight up Bond. People in this thread should be aware that there is a EBANK Board of Directors Vote for the EBANK operation that is currently going on. While this would remain separate, the current EBANK operation would work along side the Public Bond, IE, the current EBANK operation would be leasing out the slot space to the Public Bond to the tune of 50% of the expenses. What does this mean for the public bond? 1) No hardware purchase 2) 50% cheaper monthly operations Although this is good for EBANK as well, the loss of the POS would be 100% loss for EBANK. The vote is to allow the current operation to share available slots. This may not pass, this would increase the Bond amount to also cover the cost of the POS and defense hardware, other costs would be research/copy Implants etc. I thought I should mention this as it should be included in the discussion thread as it is pertinent to the overall startup cost. Seems like something Ricdic should be mentioning not you. Unless I missed something and you are involved in this operation. Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
Researching Duchess	Posted - 2009.04.30 13:54:00 - [54] I would start with two bpos and possibly grab another in two months etc. Whilst LaVista is politically correct there are a lot of people wanting Titan BPC's hence them being snapped up on forums in most cases very quickly. Check the SinqLaison capital bpc sales thread to get an idea on his stocks and bpc movement. Or see the one I linked on page 1 to see I had all 3 bpc's sold within a week of listing (that was without putting an auction/item exchange contract up ingame. The EBANK subsidiary in this field isn't able to meet demand on these items. Ultimately I would have liked to have a bond finance them however we all know the exchange may be here tomorrow or may be here in 2012. I wanted to do this Titan operation virtually since they came out. EBANK subsidiary would have had zero investment into this area had it not been for me constantly nagging them that it was a sound investment. Back then the exact same questions were raised. What happens when the market becomes flooded? Well EBANK (sub) have 5 Titan BPO's. So far we have not seen anything close to a flooding. In fact after that single sale I had, I was contacted by people asking when the next bpcs would be available. The demand is there. Supply is not. Contrary to the epeen stroking that goes on in the EveO forums very few people or even alliances have a spare 60 billion to throw into industrial production projects. Most are spending their funds on moon mining reactions, bpc production (make 40b profit in 46 days off 60b capital rather than 53b profit in 46 days off 110b), buying titans, outposts etc. I know a fair few of the bigger guys in Eve due to EBANK and obviously interacting with a fair few individuals and alliances. I only know one who owns a few Titan bpo's, and maybe 10 others who could liquidate funds to finance one. Obviously I don't know everyone but if there were tons of people with a spare 65b why aren't they already doing this? When the Orca came out, something like 10,000 BPO's sold in the first day. Go region hopping checking market history and you will find how few Titan BPO's have sold in comparison. Ultimately the decision to invest is solely on your shoulders (the investor). While there is a possiblity that the market will be flooded, I can't see 2 bpos doing so. With my expansion plans I wouldn't expect this venture to go beyond 10 bpo's over the course of a year. That is 10 people out of 200,000 every 4 months who can get a Titan from the public bond, to put things in perspective.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.04.30 14:02:00 - [55] Originally by: Researching Duchess Obviously I don't know everyone but if there were tons of people with a spare 65b why aren't they already doing this? I can honestly say I've toyed with the idea, but not for copying. Rather straight production, but anything involving super caps requires more than one person handling it, and to be honest it just wasn't high on my priority list. My only concern is one of burn out, I know how stressful getting a new home is (did that 3 years ago) and how stressful having a kid can be (had that one 2 years ago) so I cannot imagine doing all those at the same time. I know an operation like this requires little maintenance, but the maintenance is there.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.04.30 14:04:00 - [56] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Seems like something Ricdic should be mentioning not you. Unless I missed something and you are involved in this operation. Hence why this is a discussion thread, it wasn't mentioned before so I'm mentioning it now, the board vote can directly effect the startup cost of this bond. And I feel it's important to mention this to the public. Amarr for Life
Ricdic Caldari Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.30 14:10:00 - [57] SencneS is partially correct. 1) When talking 100% loss, remember the only potential loss in POS destruction is copy time. Not the bpo's. 2) I advised in my OP that I would be funding the POS and modules/defence etc so this is a non-issue. 3) The lease agreement allows me to continue with the existing POS rather than have to manage two separate ones in two separate corporations doing the exact same thing. Can you imagine having a large tower with a single adv mobile lab and all defences? It's incredibly inefficient when you can have two adv mobile lab sharing the same defences. It also means a single tower with a single fuelling requirement etc. An attacker would have to : 1) Kill a tower that has 100% of PG and 90% of CPU devoted to defence (in empire highsec under war) 2) Have zero financial gain and potential financial loss due to ship losses etc 3) Hope I didn't call in reinforcements (which I would) 4) Know the best time to strike. If they were to destroy the POS 1 day after the job had started, it would mean nothing more than an inconvenience having to re-arm a new POS. Even if the POS was destroyed after 2 months whilst it's still a loss it is limited. Back when I ran C-R-A, we were at war and someone was attacking our control tower (mercenary force). Within hours of the war starting I had KIA on our doorsteps taking them out in mass force. I had 50 KIA camping a station with a single war target inside. If I am willing to go to that length to protect a 20b operation what would I do to protect a 120b - 500b operation? We have to allow for the possiblity and people should invest accordingly but take into account the above points. If EBANK votes for separation (which they may well do), it means a bit more work for me that's all. At the moment though I am trying to get them all to wake up and vote so I can get things organised if it doesn't go through (new corp with standings, anchor new pos, new defences etc, organise fuel, 5% copy implant for research toon etc). Compare that to using the existing infrastructure however using a completely separate corp wallet and even a separate NPC station. The main point of the vote is to get authorization from the board to allow a few of the people here (Kazzac, Mining Bunnz, and a few of the others) access to a couple of shares in the subsidiary corporation so they can monitor votes. Also to have the full shareholder list of the corp listed in this thread (so investors can see the spread of shares amongst EBANK staff with their confirmation). The issue with allowing those 2-5 people a share is that they can see previous subsidiary lock/unlock votes. My argument internally is that those chosen already do MD forum audits so can be trusted to know what bpo's we used to have (not like they could do any damage with that knowledge anyway). The payment for tower was a lease agreement of 400m per quarter which would be a personal debt of mine.
Jackie Fisher Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2009.04.30 14:40:00 - [58] Given the ability of Ebank to raise cheap ISK why aren't they expanding their current operation?
Saryk Vallens Andu-Davion Combine	Posted - 2009.04.30 14:58:00 - [59] This sounds really interesting. I've been wanting to get my feet wet in investment and I think this will be a good start for me.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.30 17:30:00 - [60] Originally by: Jackie Fisher Given the ability of Ebank to raise cheap ISK why aren't they expanding their current operation? This was talked about before... Ricdic is stepping down as CEO of EBANK due to RL commitments. However, he still wants to be involved in the secondary markets, and this is a vehicle to do so. This is Ricdic's project, just like my own project (which I'm still working on) will run separately from EBANK. People need to remember something very important; EBANK Staff and Directors can and do run their own personal projects while participating in EBANK. EBANK - Chairman of the Board \| www.eve-bank.net

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