| Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Tallaran Kouros
Caldari
Arcane Alliance
   |
Posted - 2009.05.05 09:21:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
As for a BPO ôturning a profitö
That depends on how you look at it.
When you buy a BPO, you have that asset and can sell it at any time if you choose to, itÆs also unlikely that youÆll sell it for less than youÆve invested in it, so in actuality you turn a profit from the start not 79 runs in, what I'm guessing you mean is it takes you 79 runs to make back the money the BPO cost you, which is different, I'm being picky.
Yes, but generally a BPO is a valuable asset that you want to keep.
Sure you can sell it and liquidate that asset but until you do, your money is tied up until you generate enough profit to cover whatever the asset is worth.
Look up amortization for more info.
|
Leana Darkrider
Creatio -ex- nihilo
|
Posted - 2009.05.05 09:41:00 -
[62]
Tallaran is right.
Buying a bpo is an investment and it takes X runs before that investment becomes a profit.
The reason for buying a bpo is to use it for invention or building the T1 version and make a profit out of it.
It's hardly the case that someone buys a bpo and resells it.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.05.05 11:38:00 -
[63]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: Dariah Stardweller
Some ppl seem to have some serious issues in this thread...
Free market ftw! If it reduces prices, GOOD! That's because of competition... If you don't like competition, go play some communist game or something...
The problem is the only way to compete is throught prices.
If only there were some other way that you could use to disrupt your market opponent's production flow...
If only...
|
DARTHxFREE
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 23:29:00 -
[64]
I don't know the 1st thing how production/market work, but here's how things are from my view and very lickly repressents the bulk of the populi..
I take your crafted T2 products and throw them into PVP, destroying 1000's of T2 ships and modules each month.
If I have a usless ship eg. Rigged Eos I will simply repackage and sell to station for 1/2 it's value because it would take a week to sell and I'd rather have it of my mind.
When I go shoping I look for the best trade of in Price:Location (buy cheepest procuct in Jita)
Normaly demand + production cost dictates selling price.
Profit goes down the assemply line, and your problem atm is the supplyers of Adv Material are taking maximium share leaving you with no gain.
/join Cheeze & Whine Club
|
Cycotic Maniac
|
Posted - 2009.05.23 23:45:00 -
[65]
it's too bad ccp doesn't recognize or acknowledge the problems with invention, etc... seems to me the only skills worth training are pvp and mining skills. surely, people can't be that stupid to price themselves out of the market when it come to t2 bpc's. not only do you lose many data cores with invention. also, don't forget the time wasted on a slot trying to get a t2 bpc when you could have done something else. now, my main question now is should i try to invent my own t2 bpc for jump freighter or just buy one? think the later is much more wise. considering the time and very low probability of even getting a t2 bpc after about 200m+ worth of data cores and t1 bpc's.
|
Procopius
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 00:42:00 -
[66]
after everything I've read on these forums, the main take home message is:
Invention/manufacturing is broken.
Combat (Solo/Fw/Faction) is broken.
Trading is broken.
Corp functions are broken.
Exploration is broken.
So why am I not surprised that invention is something mainly done on an alt who will have 100's of M's of ISK starting money to do this activity. Answer: not surprised at all based on what I've read.
And people dare laugh at newbies training learning skills... L O L do you understand what idiots you look like to me who bought a 60 card, read all the forums and find out that everything in this game is broken? Yeah buddy, I'm training learning skills, then support skills. And if 60 days pass and this game still has its head up its ass, I'm gone anyway. That $40 they got from me in April will be the last.
|
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 13:06:00 -
[67]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: Lord Fitz
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: Dariah Stardweller
Some ppl seem to have some serious issues in this thread...
Free market ftw! If it reduces prices, GOOD! That's because of competition... If you don't like competition, go play some communist game or something...
The problem is the only way to compete is throught prices.
Location is more important than prices.
Where is the competition in that , when someone settles in the same station as you it all comes down to price , becuase buyer has no choice which product to buy and why would he care since all are the same.
Thus 'perfect' competition.
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
As for a BPO ôturning a profitö
That depends on how you look at it.
When you buy a BPO, you have that asset and can sell it at any time if you choose to, itÆs also unlikely that youÆll sell it for less than youÆve invested in it, so in actuality you turn a profit from the start not 79 runs in, what I'm guessing you mean is it takes you 79 runs to make back the money the BPO cost you, which is different, I'm being picky.
T2 BPOs don't necessarily go up in value, as invention gets cheaper the advantage of the BPOs reduces and so the value of them also decreases, not to mention on the off chance they decide to remove them, your asset goes up in smoke.
|
Raiven Parker
The Athiest Syndicate
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 13:43:00 -
[68]
In my experience, if you use the following two rules, invention becomes profitable.
1. Dont sell in Jita.
2. Do not sell in bloody Jita
Try it.
|
Iron Eater
|
Posted - 2009.05.24 18:13:00 -
[69]
If you are running five industrial chars you *have* to sell in Jita because it's the only place where you can sell off the vast amounts of products you manufacture every day.
The problem with invention isn't the invention system but the market prices. A few month ago prices for some t2 components exploded and for some mysterious reason hac and cs prices haven't adopted yet.
|
Darriuss
Gallente
Epiphyte Mining and Exploration
|
Posted - 2009.05.25 01:39:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Syndori
Edited by: Syndori on 04/05/2009 08:27:30
Originally by: Mystafyre
Originally by: Dariah Stardweller
Some ppl seem to have some serious issues in this thread...
Free market ftw! If it reduces prices, GOOD! That's because of competition... If you don't like competition, go play some communist game or something...
Let's say Ravens build costs are 100 M ISK.
You would sell it with fair 105 M ISK.
That's 5 M ISK profit.
Ok, now our wonderfull noobs come into picture.
They buy a Raven BPC, 1 M ISK.
Then they mine all the needed minerals, except zydrine and megacyte. 0 ISK.
Then they buy zydrine and megacyte from the market. Let's say 25 M ISK.
Their total build costs, 26 M ISK!
"WOW! OMG! THAT'S 79 M ISK PROFIT PER RAVEN!!!"
That's the problem.
How that affects on the competition? It pushes the price levels UNDER BUILS COST LEVEL.
Number first priority should be to remove T1 modules from loot tables. Only named ones there. That would push up T1 prices and at the same time it would make T1 manufacturing needed.
6 months ago I checked how many runs you need to make Ravens in order to start getting profit after the BPO has been researched and put into production. It was 79 runs. 79 freaking runs and after that you got your first profit. Wich was like 200k ISK...
IMHO there should be IQ test before you would be allowed to build or invent anything EVE.. 
To me, that's reasonable. Just because you consider your time to be worth considerably more than they value their time does not mean that they're stupid. Personally, that's profit for me, because I consider the amount of time mining and gathering materials worth FAR less than the ISK it takes to build it. Why? Because every now and then I decide to do something horribly risky like take a mining barge or ten out alone to 0.0 and see if I can get away with mining some Mercoxit and make it back alive. Problem is, I can't afford to do that too often. Therefore, a penny saved is a penny earned in my book. If I can build a Raven and undercut you by a few million for enough to turn a tidy 30-50 million profit (in pure ISK, not time) then I will undercut you every time.
EDIT: Just realized that the process you're describing right now is something called Vertical Integration, or a vertical monopoly. That's free market at it's finest/most cutthroat
You are right that someone valuing their time for less than someone else doesn't make them stupid. They are stupid because they could make more money selling the minerals rather than selling their items under mineral cost.
That being said, it doesn't bother me at all. I happily buy items for less than I could make them for.
Originally by: Cycotic Maniac
it's too bad ccp doesn't recognize or acknowledge the problems with invention, etc... seems to me the only skills worth training are pvp and mining skills. surely, people can't be that stupid to price themselves out of the market when it come to t2 bpc's. not only do you lose many data cores with invention. also, don't forget the time wasted on a slot trying to get a t2 bpc when you could have done something else. now, my main question now is should i try to invent my own t2 bpc for jump freighter or just buy one? think the later is much more wise. considering the time and very low probability of even getting a t2 bpc after about 200m+ worth of data cores and t1 bpc's.
There is nothing to recognise or acknowledge. The market works fine. With a little time invested in some market research, you will know where and what to sell. The problem is people are lazy and don't want to put the effort into the research or the logistics it takes to turn a nice profit. They want to buy all their minerals and manufacture in the same system. Good luck with that. The same goes for T2 production; effort. Ironically the same thing it takes to succeed in RL.
|
Copious Labious
|
Posted - 2009.05.25 19:07:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Copious Labious on 25/05/2009 19:07:49
Originally by: Leana Darkrider
I've been inventing quite some time now. Sticking only to modules and frigates. But the time has come to start something new. So I was thinking, The larger tech II ships. Battlecruiser size hull and larger.
I did some calculations, but it was quite shocking seeing such a low profit or taking a loss for certain ships.
For example, the Claymore.
If I'm going to build all the components and the Cyclone myself, it still gives me a loss of 10%.
The Sleipnir gives a little profit of 3%.
And I'm not talking about sell prices in Jita.
How is this possible?
For those bigger ships, you have less demand than you see for HACs/recons. Fewer pilots train the skills, and the command ships aren't nimble enough to keep up with the common cruiser size HAC/recon gangs. There's also a general opinion that command ships aren't worth the extra cost over other T2 ships. It's a mistaken opinion as Claymores are selling for less than Ishtars, but the lower demand keeps the prices down.
Also, for me at least, isk/hour is more important than maximizing profit. In some cases the ship is just a convenient way to repackage its components. It is a LOT easier to sell a Cerberus than 200 reactor units...
So there's plenty of isk in t2 ship invention if you look around.
|
Leana Darkrider
Creatio -ex- nihilo
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 07:38:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Copious Labious
Edited by: Copious Labious on 25/05/2009 19:07:49
Originally by: Leana Darkrider
I've been inventing quite some time now. Sticking only to modules and frigates. But the time has come to start something new. So I was thinking, The larger tech II ships. Battlecruiser size hull and larger.
I did some calculations, but it was quite shocking seeing such a low profit or taking a loss for certain ships.
For example, the Claymore.
If I'm going to build all the components and the Cyclone myself, it still gives me a loss of 10%.
The Sleipnir gives a little profit of 3%.
And I'm not talking about sell prices in Jita.
How is this possible?
For those bigger ships, you have less demand than you see for HACs/recons. Fewer pilots train the skills, and the command ships aren't nimble enough to keep up with the common cruiser size HAC/recon gangs. There's also a general opinion that command ships aren't worth the extra cost over other T2 ships. It's a mistaken opinion as Claymores are selling for less than Ishtars, but the lower demand keeps the prices down.
Also, for me at least, isk/hour is more important than maximizing profit. In some cases the ship is just a convenient way to repackage its components. It is a LOT easier to sell a Cerberus than 200 reactor units...
So there's plenty of isk in t2 ship invention if you look around.
Yeah you're right.
I'm going to stick with t2 frigs and cruisers.
the larger ships aren't aint worth the hassle
|
Wyn Do
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 11:07:00 -
[73]
I keep hearing people say "the minerals you mine aren't free!!!", and getting quite fervent about it.
I say this- if I keep an eve client running at work, and afk mine, I am getting minerals I otherwise wouldn't have been able to do. As I am at work, I can't do any other activity in-game other than afk mine as I have to get on with some work :)
Thus, the minerals are free- they take up none of my play-time to acquire, as when I can play 'properly', I PvP and not mine.
|
Tekutep
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 15:16:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Iron Eater
...and for some mysterious reason hac and cs prices haven't adopted yet.
This may be a bit of a shallow answer, but I would guess that it is because people are still willing to pay the old prices? Not being a smartass, just offering a suggestion.
|
NateX
x13
KrautbreaK
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 17:15:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Wyn Do
I keep hearing people say "the minerals you mine aren't free!!!", and getting quite fervent about it.
I say this- if I keep an eve client running at work, and afk mine, I am getting minerals I otherwise wouldn't have been able to do. As I am at work, I can't do any other activity in-game other than afk mine as I have to get on with some work :)
Thus, the minerals are free- they take up none of my play-time to acquire, as when I can play 'properly', I PvP and not mine.
another one who doesnt get it...
The problem is that some sell the product for less than they could have earned from just selling the mined material directly on the market.
--
|
Drab Cane
Mining Emporium inc.
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 21:00:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Wyn Do
I keep hearing people say "the minerals you mine aren't free!!!", and getting quite fervent about it.
I say this- if I keep an eve client running at work, and afk mine, I am getting minerals I otherwise wouldn't have been able to do. As I am at work, I can't do any other activity in-game other than afk mine as I have to get on with some work :)
Thus, the minerals are free- they take up none of my play-time to acquire, as when I can play 'properly', I PvP and not mine.
So there was no "opportunity cost" in getting the mined ore, since you wouldn't have been able to do anything else with your time. That's understandable.
When it comes time to 1) sell that ore, or 2) refine and sell the minerals, or 3) refine and use the minerals to manufacture something, opportunity cost comes back into play.
On the other hand, expecting everyone to act rationally in their own best interest is wishful thinking. Players' irrational behaviour makes for a more exciting game!
-----------------------------------------------
- Who Dares, Wins
|
Sarina Berghil
|
Posted - 2009.05.27 04:47:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Drab Cane
On the other hand, expecting everyone to act rationally in their own best interest is wishful thinking. Players' irrational behaviour makes for a more exciting game!
Very true. It's a bit like complaining that the irrational poker player makes you lose.
The good poker player will capitalize on the errors of the irrational players, while the poor players will keep losing to the good players because of the irrational ones, who most likely break even.
Its the same on the Eve market. Complaining that people do it the wrong way wont turn a profit. Capitalizing on those you think do it the wrong way is much better for profit.
|
Kiviar
Caldari
Agent-Orange
|
Posted - 2009.05.27 16:23:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Kiviar on 27/05/2009 16:23:05
Originally by: Raiven Parker
In my experience, if you use the following two rules, invention becomes profitable.
1. Dont sell in Jita.
2. Do not sell in bloody Jita
Try it.
I sell in jita often and still make about 6ish mil a line day
Like was said in the 1st post, people are picking the wrong things to invent and doing it wrong.
---
|
kvaj
|
Posted - 2009.05.28 07:11:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Mystafyre
Originally by: Dariah Stardweller
Some ppl seem to have some serious issues in this thread...
Free market ftw! If it reduces prices, GOOD! That's because of competition... If you don't like competition, go play some communist game or something...
Let's say Ravens build costs are 100 M ISK.
You would sell it with fair 105 M ISK.
That's 5 M ISK profit.
Ok, now our wonderfull noobs come into picture.
They buy a Raven BPC, 1 M ISK.
Then they mine all the needed minerals, except zydrine and megacyte. 0 ISK.
Then they buy zydrine and megacyte from the market. Let's say 25 M ISK.
Their total build costs, 26 M ISK!
"WOW! OMG! THAT'S 79 M ISK PROFIT PER RAVEN!!!"
That's the problem.
How that affects on the competition? It pushes the price levels UNDER BUILS COST LEVEL.
Number first priority should be to remove T1 modules from loot tables. Only named ones there. That would push up T1 prices and at the same time it would make T1 manufacturing needed.
6 months ago I checked how many runs you need to make Ravens in order to start getting profit after the BPO has been researched and put into production. It was 79 runs. 79 freaking runs and after that you got your first profit. Wich was like 200k ISK...
IMHO there should be IQ test before you would be allowed to build or invent anything EVE..
Guess they forgot to value their time vs money.
The time you spend mining and gathering the minerals is costing money. Just they throw it out of the picture cause they think "What I gather isn't costing me anything.", but for time spent for mining is that profit or loss. They could buy minerals at a decent price for production at less time and generate the same profit.
It comes down to who value their time and money more.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |