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Leana Darkrider
Creatio -ex- nihilo
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Posted - 2009.04.29 08:41:00 -
[1]
Hi S&I,
I've been inventing quite some time now. Sticking only to modules and frigates. But the time has come to start something new. So I was thinking, The larger tech II ships. Battlecruiser size hull and larger.
I did some calculations, but it was quite shocking seeing such a low profit or taking a loss for certain ships.
For example, the Claymore.
If I'm going to build all the components and the Cyclone myself, it still gives me a loss of 10%.
The Sleipnir gives a little profit of 3%.
And I'm not talking about sell prices in Jita.
How is this possible?
Is it because advanced materials have gone sky high due to kenny not being in Delve anymore?
Is it because datacore farmers think datacores are "for free"?
Is it because so much carebears are doing invention that competition is killing?
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not whining about that I can't make any money anymore.
I'm doing alot of other things that keeps my income save.
It's just regretting that something I like to do (build something from scratch and selling) isn't fun anymore.
What are your ideas about invention, still profitable for you or did you quit doing it?
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Shintai
Gallente
Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.04.29 09:20:00 -
[2]
You fight very low Claymore demand since its mostly a PvP ship. And those you fight are mainly BPO holders. Secondly, always invent CS with decrypters. I make a fortune on sleipnirs.
In short, you do it wrongly.
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Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Lexandrius Megens
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Posted - 2009.04.29 09:30:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Shintai
You fight very low Claymore demand since its mostly a PvP ship. And those you fight are mainly BPO holders. Secondly, always invent CS with decrypters. I make a fortune on sleipnirs.
In short, you do it wrongly.
This man is right.
If you want to do T2 production, make sure there is not BPO for it anymore. T2 BPO's get destroyed in ganks, so stay on it with killboards and keep an eye on the price developments on items and that should give you (in combination with a profit calculation) a good guess.
Signed,
Lexandrius
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.29 09:59:00 -
[4]
Yup, Claymore invents at a loss right now given all prices involved, but then again most CSs are in the same boat right now... Sleipnir and Nighthawk barely break even, while not so long ago they were making a hefty profit.
HOWEVER the reason is not invention itself : it's the sudden increase in material prices in the recent past, and ship sales prices haven't quite adjusted to the proper levels yet.
In the early stages of the moon minerals craze, people actually bought CSs, recycled them and sold the components for a profit, that's how sudden the material price spike was, and that's how slow ship prices moved in the wake of those changes.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.29 10:48:00 -
[5]
As Akita said, there is a very strong resistance to the prices adjusting to the new production costs.
Partially it is the buyer resistance to increasing prices. Most buyers will wait for a better offer or place a low buy order and some of the builders will sell at a loss instead of having the capital immobilized.
Then there is the good number of sellers that will say "the others have already done the math for the production cost, I don't need to redo it, I can safely reduce the sell price by some % and still get my gain". I suspect there is a good number of people reasoning this way.
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Leana Darkrider
Creatio -ex- nihilo
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Posted - 2009.04.29 10:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lexandrius Megens
Originally by: Shintai
You fight very low Claymore demand since its mostly a PvP ship. And those you fight are mainly BPO holders. Secondly, always invent CS with decrypters. I make a fortune on sleipnirs.
In short, you do it wrongly.
This man is right.
If you want to do T2 production, make sure there is not BPO for it anymore. T2 BPO's get destroyed in ganks, so stay on it with killboards and keep an eye on the price developments on items and that should give you (in combination with a profit calculation) a good guess.
I'm not sure where you get your info from, but it's quite rare a T2 BPO gets destroyed during ganks.
T2 BPO's are mostly onwed by the larger alliances and kept save in unconquerable NPC stations in nullsec.
I'm not getting into T2 production, I'm already in it 
It just suprises me, that the profit for larger T2 items, such as command ships are very low compared to producing T2 mods.
And I'm more suprised that certain ships gives you a loss.
@ Akita T,
Thanx for your response, this is the best and helpfull answer I got.
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Ishikari
Gallente
Duct Tape Inc.
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.04.29 11:00:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lexandrius Megens
If you want to do T2 production, make sure there is not BPO for it anymore.
Good luck, t2 battleships for example never turned a profit from day 1 because too many people think this way.
----
Duct Tape Inc. Providing all research services to the EVE Universe.
Get your Queue-Free research started today! |
Vikura
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.29 11:14:00 -
[8]
Well, it's not just invention that have mostly low profits or none. But the whole crafting is ruined by people who
a) Don't bother to check how much reprogress materials are worth before priceing their products (there are stuff that you can buy, reprogress and make money out of it)
b) Don't bother calculating the product cost and/or think that the materials they mine / reprogress are free.
c) Unpatient people, they just keep selling stuff so cheap because they for some weird reason needs that couple of millions right now.
As it is now, there are very few things you can make profit on. Sure there are things, but it's matter of right place (crafting / hauling stuff to a place that have high demand of it but low supply). But because of the 3 above things, it is behind a really hard work/research to find anything worthwile.
And yes, i find it little sad. As i would be even more into industry but because there aren't that much stuff that i can make profit on, i just sell the ores i mine, instead of crafting something. (and the fact that i'm little lazy to hunt down a system with only few people so i have no competition on the belts and research/crafting slots)
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.04.29 14:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lexandrius Megens
If you want to do T2 production, make sure there is not BPO for it anymore.
Profit for items WITH T2 BPOs is above that of items without, because people do exactly as you say, and invent items without T2 BPOs, and never work out if it's profitable or not (because it 'has to' be because there is no BPO right ?). Meanwhile the T2 BPOs can't possibly supply the demand for most other items, and people inventing those make a fortune because they have checked, seen they were profitable, and invented those instead of the items without BPOs, which face the highest invention competition (and competition from inventors being THE thing that kills profits).
In short, T2 prices take a while to match material prices, sometimes they never do and the material prices drop instead. Also, use decryptors, or rather, work out your profit using no decryptor, and the profit you will get when using each decryptor. Use one / none depending on which makes the most profit. Generally, the more datacores you need, the more likely you are to benefit from a decryptor.
There is still quite a bit of profit in invention, however 99.99% of the 'effort' is in finding which item is the most profitable this week. Actually inventing and building itself takes virtually no effort, thus is likely to offer virtually no profit.
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AllUrIskRBelongtoMee
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Posted - 2009.04.30 11:49:00 -
[10]
Edited by: AllUrIskRBelongtoMee on 30/04/2009 11:49:43
Simply put, there are to many idiots that:
think datacores have no value
think minerals have no value
think its free to make bpcs
think its free to run a pos
think they are making serious profit by tieing up a production line for 3 days to make 5mil.
That are willing to crash the prices of items so they can make 10% of the profit that the items were selling very well at before their ******ed ass showed up.
that are carebears that think by destroying markets they are "pvping".
carebears that feel its wrong to make a decent profit and that its immoral to make a healthy profit.
that would die of starvation if they were forced to run their own business in RL.
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Seraph Six
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Posted - 2009.04.30 16:00:00 -
[11]
ROFL! Bitter much?
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Kat Bandeis
Caldari
Virtual Rock Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.30 20:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: AllUrIskRBelongtoMee
Edited by: AllUrIskRBelongtoMee on 30/04/2009 11:49:43
Simply put, there are to many idiots that:
think datacores have no value
think minerals have no value
think its free to make bpcs
think its free to run a pos
think they are making serious profit by tieing up a production line for 3 days to make 5mil.
That are willing to crash the prices of items so they can make 10% of the profit that the items were selling very well at before their ******ed ass showed up.
that are carebears that think by destroying markets they are "pvping".
carebears that feel its wrong to make a decent profit and that its immoral to make a healthy profit.
that would die of starvation if they were forced to run their own business in RL.
Or perhaps there are just a few too many vocal @$$-wipes who think that if everyone doesn't play the game EXACTLY the way they do that they're playing it wrong.
Think that's a possibility?
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Mystafyre
Caldari
Malevolent Intentions
Dark Solar Empire
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Posted - 2009.04.30 20:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: AllUrIskRBelongtoMee
Edited by: AllUrIskRBelongtoMee on 30/04/2009 11:49:43
Simply put, there are to many idiots that:
think datacores have no value
think minerals have no value
think its free to make bpcs
think its free to run a pos
think they are making serious profit by tieing up a production line for 3 days to make 5mil.
That are willing to crash the prices of items so they can make 10% of the profit that the items were selling very well at before their ******ed ass showed up.
that are carebears that think by destroying markets they are "pvping".
carebears that feel its wrong to make a decent profit and that its immoral to make a healthy profit.
that would die of starvation if they were forced to run their own business in RL.
Well, sadly, you are correct. Even this is just a game, too many people are ruining the market by acting like nothing does matter. It's a fact.
If we would use real life currency in eve, things would be different.
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Arfvedson
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Posted - 2009.04.30 20:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: AllUrIskRBelongtoMee
Edited by: AllUrIskRBelongtoMee on 30/04/2009 11:49:43
Simply put, there are to many idiots that:
think datacores have no value
think minerals have no value
think its free to make bpcs
think its free to run a pos
think they are making serious profit by tieing up a production line for 3 days to make 5mil.
That are willing to crash the prices of items so they can make 10% of the profit that the items were selling very well at before their ******ed ass showed up.
that are carebears that think by destroying markets they are "pvping".
carebears that feel its wrong to make a decent profit and that its immoral to make a healthy profit.
that would die of starvation if they were forced to run their own business in RL.
This
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AllUrIskRBelongtoMee
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Posted - 2009.05.01 02:40:00 -
[15]
Yes it is a game but the fact remains that there are those that are logical in how they do things in game, in particularly the market and those that are not. Yet those that are illogical in how they work on the market ruin things for everyone else. Unfortunately it is not true pvp.
True pvp results in actual losses for those that are outclassed,outskilled,out maneuvered and out-gunned. Generally those that can think and act fastest and on a higher level then the rest will dominate the game. Rarely do you see a dullard with zero skill and lacking in comprehension of the situation come out on top or even create a draw.
In other games outside of EVE as well as ship based PVP the above paragraph is true. The dullards will be wiped away and forgotten. Their ships, their isk, their holdings are crushed, burned and seized. However in the supposed "market pvp" rarely does such a thing happen. The dullards will remain as there will always be asteroids respawning for them to continue their moronic quest to throughly destroy the in game market with their combination of ignorance and arrogance.
They will never realize that it is pointless to fight to control zero profit margin areas of the market. They will never realize what they could have made just as much as they will never realize how little they are truly making. They will never realize how much effort they are putting into making the same amount of isk if they were to only apply 50% of that effort.
Some people should simply mine. Some should simply produce. Some should simply invent. Few should be doing more then one of those actions. The reason for such is that to many apparently cannot comprehend that they are entitled to compensation for the time and efforts they are putting into secondary processes. These people are of the slave mentality where their efforts do not require just compensation. Such people would throughly destroy RL economies if they had access to limitless materials and the ability to produce goods from such all on their own.
Either they are communists or dullards of the highest degree. In all honesty I believe it is a mixture of both as there is no need to produce and sell goods at extremely low profit margins. Especially when the customer base has the need, the desire and the money to buy at a fair profit margin.
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Life is Experience
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Posted - 2009.05.01 02:57:00 -
[16]
I think people who manufacture or buy items to sell, should realise the value (not the cost or price) of the items that go in to the items they're trading in.
The prices will be fairer, failing that test, please download the spreadsheet in my signature so that you can understand how mineral prices effect the base price of modules you can buy to refine.
....sigh....deeper sigh..
There's only one level higher in the stupidity stakes and that's the person attempting to teach a dullard the error of their ways.
God I'm more depressed than the market.
--------------------------
Life is about memories the more the better.
EXP-L Refining Calculator v1.5 |
Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.01 04:02:00 -
[17]
PROTIP: If you think someone is selling below cost, BUY THEM OUT and relist. If you don't feel comfortable doing so then their pricing is correct.
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Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.01 04:16:00 -
[18]
Originally by: AllUrIskRBelongtoMee
In all honesty I believe it is a mixture of both as there is no need to produce and sell goods at extremely low profit margins. Especially when the customer base has the need, the desire and the money to buy at a fair profit margin.
Except for one thing. If I can passively generate ~5 million isk a day per manualt it's worth rolling another. And another. And another. And another. And another...
Punch up an evemon training plan for PE V + advanced mass production IV post attribute remap. Multiply by 3 characters, subtract a 21 day buddy pass. Consider what the return of even 500K/day per production pipe means for each such account.
T1 (and T2) manufacture is just too easy to blob with alts.
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Bret Caliaro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.01 05:11:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Bret Caliaro on 01/05/2009 05:15:20
I don't usually wander into the S&I forums that much but I'm venturing from trading into tech2 manufacture so thought I'd have a look.
I'm glad I got the heads up as I will be doing some heavy research into the selection of items I'll be producing, but I'm a little off put by all the whinning going on from people about spanners on the market.
I'd also like to hi-light that there are alot of traders out there who will happily crash your markets to obtain your goods very cheaply to steal your profit. (and this has also happened to me) You ever thought that your lack of profit could be your fault?
The dullards will lose their isk and be robbed as their stuff is taken and re-sold by people who know better, they still get a pitiful amount, but hey someone else got isk from their hours of hard work for doing nothing.
So please don't whine, you either have 2 choices, GTFO out of your current market as the competetion is too tough or bear it/ combat it and keep going until you find the profit. We could all hold hands, sing hymns, then work together to create a game where everyone is happy.... or we can live in the real world (ingame).
Basicly if you know something doesn't make profit why are you still doing it? Seems a bit like trying to fit a cube through a circular hole and even 3-4years can work out that it wont fit....
Of course just adding my oppinion to an ever increasing and pointless pile.
EDIT: now with less ramble
_________________________________________________
I'm a such a lazy Bast***, so I play smart not hard. |
Mitch Taylor
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.05.01 10:37:00 -
[20]
Invent for your personal use, problems solved ;)
The Dark is Rising...
Fight my Brute! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.01 12:05:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Mitch Taylor
Invent for your personal use, problems solved ;)
You mean, "problem succesfully masked", don't you ? 
If it's not profitable to invent for sale, it's not profitable to invent for self-use either.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
AllUrIskRBelongtoMee
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Posted - 2009.05.01 13:40:00 -
[22]
Strange, one person says that it is easy to blob with manuAlts and then suggest that you "buy out" the blobbers. If the blobbers are blobbing then they are blobbing the market with tons of goods and at HUGE volumes.
So it becomes a question of how much can you afford to buy and how fast can you resell it before the blobbers blob again. Once the blobbers blob again you are stuck holding a blob of goods you will be lucky to resell at the same price that you bought it at.
the people that think there is nothing wrong with morons destroying the market kind of shot themselves in the foot right there. You basically put the finishing touches on my disgust...er...argument against the dullards that kill the market.
Just because one cannot buy up the entire stock the blobbers are putting out does not mean the prices are correct. That is ass backwards,illogical,dullard speak. The "correct" price is the price in which the majority of possible customers are still willing to purchase at. "Supply and Demand", Mother Frakker, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!? I have to say that you have no clue as to how it even works. You need to put down the book you've been reading from. I thought the hammer and sickle would have been a dead give away.
These guys have no idea what the "correct" price is. Again its within the price range that customers are still willing to purchase it. This means its at the higher end of the price spectrum, not at the lower end. Once you know what most are willing to buy at you can tweak the prices a bit more to fine tune it. This means increasing the price until you see diminishing returns.
If you can charge $10 for something and have 100% of the potential customers still happily buying, you know you can charge at least $10 but need to fine tune it as you could squeeze out MORE,NOT LESS, profit. If you could charge $20 for the same item and only loose a small percentage of the customer base you will still come out ahead. You would need to lose a whole 50% of your customer base to drop to a point where you are even with the profits at $10 with 100% of the c.base.
Of course that is how things are done in RL. No one in the world is paying a mere 5-10% profit or even less on any goods. There certainly is not a single person buying at 0% profit margins. In RL, anything from your lunch to your EVE subscription you are likely to be paying at the very least for 100% profit margins. Most places charge far more. If you look at fast food joints or a theater you can pay anywhere from $2-$6 for a soda. Did that soda really cost the theater $1.80-$5.40 to "produce"? If you even think that it cost them a $1 to buy and serve up to you then you sir are a dullard.
If this was real pvp then someone would be able to eliminate these blobbers. Unfortunately they have an endless stream of ore respawning every day. If it was just 1 or 2 people doing this then it would be easy to resolve. Yet its a problem that many contribute to.
I still laugh and shake my head when ever i read on the front page yet another site is talking about EVE's economy as though it is something amazing. It might be amazing, amazing that fools believe there is really anything to be learned. Even worse are those suggesting that it is semi-realistic and should be studied. What it is, is an exercise in what happens if fools can multiply themselves and produce and sell goods at zero-10% profit margins with zero overhead. The obvious outcome is that they will still be there years later in game, even though they would have starved to death in RL if they had to run a real business.
Market "PVP" should be about making the most isk possible, not making zero and making sure everyone is unable to make anything as well. You can't open up the market some day and make tons of profits because as soon as that happens everyone else is going to come in and get a peice of the pie. Then you have to start over again for zero gain.
2 words: Pure Fail
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.01 14:17:00 -
[23]
The "product blobbers" only work as long as the profit/line/day is above a certain price, that being the "sustainability" price via a PLEX/GTC.
30 lines per account (3x 10 per character), 30 days per ~310 mil PLEX, add +25% on top of that for some half-decent payback of time invested in training the alts, and you get the number of 430k ISK per line per day.
As long as a product makes over 500k ISK per line per day profit, you WILL get swarmed by "product blobbers" for sure.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Governor LePetomane
Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions
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Posted - 2009.05.01 14:21:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Governor LePetomane on 01/05/2009 14:23:28
Originally by: AllUrIskRBelongtoMee
In RL
Think I found your problem. 
Clair Bear is right though. Oversupply from well- capitalized mass producers looking for passive or low- effort ISK is far more responsible for narrow margins than the "X is free" people. The latter crowd are dependent on gathering the "free" materials and therefore have a cap on their achievable market share that's far below that attainable by the former.
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.05.01 17:34:00 -
[25]
maybe it would be high time for ccp to cut supply lines for a bit.
and give system time to dump the excess trash.
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Abervest
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Posted - 2009.05.01 19:53:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Abervest on 01/05/2009 19:53:45
you are all forgetting the most important aspect of the market, the consumers.
I can use cap recharger 2's long before i can use commandships, in fact i may never fly a commandship. but i use tons of cap recharger 2's. I dont invent sht, but what is the demand for command ships and what is the demand for cap 2's or mar2's?
how often do command ships get destroyed and how often do cap recharger 2's get distroyed?
its more about turnover then about material prices . also many command ship builders are building for corp or friends and never get to the market.
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Bret Caliaro
Seven Dwarves Prospecting
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Posted - 2009.05.01 21:21:00 -
[27]
Maybe my experience is different as I move my stock around and sell it at different places (for the highest profit obviously) so I don't usually have this problem, but I still think trying to sell your goods where you don't make a profit from them is still like trying to fit a fat man through a small door.
I agree with the supply and demand roles that happen in the RL and how they do in part apply to the game I am constantly using these rules to make profit, but if some one chooses to ignore these rules and be a spanner like I said, whinning isn't going to change anything, either put up with it or GTFO of that market.
And in RL in my field work gets out sourced to china, I suppose this is the equal to people crashing markets. They will still make profit as they tend to pay their employees less, this means they still make profit but alot less than us on a job but they accept it anyway. Just like the dullards accept the lower gains for their time spent, you can't ask these people to stop you can only compete with them.
_________________________________________________
I'm a such a lazy Bast***, so I play smart not hard. |
Chung Pow
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Posted - 2009.05.03 17:19:00 -
[28]
Originally by: AllUrIskRBelongtoMee
Edited by: AllUrIskRBelongtoMee on 30/04/2009 11:49:43
Simply put, there are to many idiots that:
think datacores have no value
think minerals have no value
think its free to make bpcs
think its free to run a pos
think they are making serious profit by tieing up a production line for 3 days to make 5mil.
That are willing to crash the prices of items so they can make 10% of the profit that the items were selling very well at before their ******ed ass showed up.
that are carebears that think by destroying markets they are "pvping".
carebears that feel its wrong to make a decent profit and that its immoral to make a healthy profit.
that would die of starvation if they were forced to run their own business in RL.
ok. I really like the idea of using real currency in eve. Maybe there should be an alternate eve server where real money could be used. Then, you would seperate the men from the boy's :) Kinda suck if ya lost a BS worth $1000 USD at a gatecamp and some pirate could come and loot your s*** and go turn it in for real cash? However, if you were the pirate (who sits at home and is unable to work because of disabilites or something) could make a living :)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.03 17:20:00 -
[29]
Play Entropia then
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Dariah Stardweller
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Posted - 2009.05.03 19:12:00 -
[30]
Some ppl seem to have some serious issues in this thread...
Free market ftw! If it reduces prices, GOOD! That's because of competition... If you don't like competition, go play some communist game or something...
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