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Nazim
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.05.07 16:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
Wondering how u gaiz feel? I can make more per hour of work potentially than a pimped out uncursion fleet pre nerf. Should they heavily tax station trading and redestribute the wealth? |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
313
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Posted - 2012.05.07 16:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think station trading is one of the few lucrative professions that is set apart because there is nothing artificially setting and maintaining the high returns. If station trading is so great and such easy money, why aren't there more people doing it and driving down the margins? There is next to nothing stopping competition driving margins, and thereby returns, to effectively zero.
Even something similar like supercapital building, which I also think is fine as a high return profession, you have a huge initial investment. Trading can be as simple as playing the margin on one item.
If they want to increase transaction taxes to pull more isk out of the economy in general, and it's done based on sound economic principles, then that is another matter. |
Johnny Frecko
Fruidian Logic
21
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Posted - 2012.05.07 16:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
"Wondering how u gaiz feel? I can make more per hour of work potentially than a pimped out uncursion fleet pre nerf. Should they heavily tax station trading and redestribute the wealth?"
You cannot make 200-300M per hour on a steady basis station trading.
there are a few traders that cross the 1B a day, but i think it's a handful.
You might've had a good hour that amazingly all your orders moved exactly at the same time, But that's not the case.
It also stops scaling up at around 3-4B unless you kickstart another toon.
Why would they heavily tax to redistribute the wealth?
It will hit manufacturers harder, and prices would pretty much roll down to consumers. Plus you're not redistributing anything, you just made things more expensive for everyone, and the isk is out of the system. |
Pinstar Colton
New Lunar Republic Special Tactics Squadron
33
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Posted - 2012.05.07 16:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Your windfall from station trading is dependent mostly on player skill rather than your character's skill's. The few who can make over a bil/day sitting in station have both the market know-how and the capital to do it.
There is nothing wrong with station traders. Unlike Incursions, it doesn't flood EVE with new currency. In fact it slowly reduces the currency supply (Via SCC tax and broker fees).
It is a unique profession in EVE that is not for everyone. It is not so lucritive as to require everyone to play that way to remain competitive. In fact, the more people who try to become market traders, the less everyone makes. This ensures that the income level is always somewhat on par with other forms of income.
If there are too many or too few people playing the markets, it will self-correct eventually as people change professions.
That is the primary complaint about Incursions: They introduce new ISK into the game, and your level of profit is not reduced as more and more people do them.
If you want to get a slice of the station trader's pie, give it a try.
I don't make minerals. I just make ore 20% cooler. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
292
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
you people are terrible at recognizing trolls |
Claire Voyant
127
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 17:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
corestwo wrote:you people are terrible at recognizing trolls
And yet you get into long discussion threads with Yuki. |
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.05.07 18:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
I was thinking the opposite, I want trading to get buffed via a reverse tax. Everytime I make a trade or update one, the station should give me 1 mil for the privilege of having me use their station. This is the thread where we post our terrible, poorly thought out ideas, right? |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
189
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Posted - 2012.05.07 19:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Claire Voyant wrote:corestwo wrote:you people are terrible at recognizing trolls And yet you get into long discussion threads with Yuki.
Boom, headshot. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
715
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Posted - 2012.05.07 19:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Nazim wrote:and redestribute the wealth?
NPCs don't need wealth, only hamsters |
Debiru
Flashpoint Industries
Imperial Hull Tankers
10
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Posted - 2012.05.07 19:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Station trading has risk as well as reward, and your reward depends entirely on the actions of other players. The only way to nerf station trading is nerf competition between players, and CCP doesn't do that. Station traders play their part. It's a very lucrative part, but also has decently high risk, if your investments run short, and also requires a substantial startup capital to do effectively. It also requires a person who has a measure of intelligence, attentiveness, and who does their research, and EVE rewards those things, not punish for them. Station trading isn't all that different from daytrading in real life (case in point, one of the fundamental skills for it is called daytrading). Furthermore, station traders are a very useful force for industrialists, since many of them drive up prices through manipulation, allowing larger profit margins for industrialists. The only people who get hurt are consumers, and the smart consumers wait and buy their goods when they are cheap.
It's a good system we have, and I would view a nerf to station traders (keep in mind I am not a station trader) as a horrible idea. If you think station trading is too lucrative, than don't station trade, don't see what the complaint here is. Not to mention industrialists can make just as much money as a station trader. Level 4 runners are the only ones losing out. |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
717
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Posted - 2012.05.07 20:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nazim wrote:Wondering how u gaiz feel? I can make more per hour of work potentially than a pimped out uncursion fleet pre nerf. Should they heavily tax station trading and redestribute the wealth?
Hey we already have our sh!tty EU politicians with their sh!tty Tobin taxes and other similarly ret4rded trash. Leave us be.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Olleybear
I R' Carebear
63
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Posted - 2012.05.08 00:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
The 'redistribute the wealth' line made me laugh as well.
Eve doesn't equal a real world with finite resources.
In Eve there is isk to be made everywhere out of thin air via agents and resources ( asteroids, PI, moon goo, ice ) that never really run out no matter how long you collect them. Everyone in Eve is, or is in the process of building up to being, space rich.
There is no need to nerf station trading because of the ease of becoming space rich.
I am not a trader, though I have respect for those that are able to do this both in Eve and out in RL.
Good troll.
When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life. |
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
128
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Posted - 2012.05.08 00:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Actually, station trading differs from daytrading or regular stock trading in a very important way, which is that we are actually productive. We give those who need to offload goods, but who lack the skills, time, and/or will to do so on their own using sell orders the opportunity to get paid for their items. We put our own money, and we facilitate the movement of these essential goods throughout the market, so that others can make productive use of them in PVP and PVE pursuits.
If we began taxing this at a heavier rate, there would simply be less of us around, and the movement of these essential goods into players' hands would be slowed dramatically.
I know it's easy to think that station traders don't perform any useful function, but that's simply not true. If we weren't buying your mission loot, manufactured goods, or whatever else, then you'd have to sell the stuff on your own, which in most cases would mean that you lose time doing stuff you really want to be doing. |
sitar seaton
State War Academy
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.05.08 02:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
It is the way of the world today to increase taxes and "spread the wealth". Increasing transaction taxes 10x or more would be a great way to soak it to the rich and remove isk from the system. The result would be lower inflation, which would help the common pod pilot.
Let's bring class warfare to eve! |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
128
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Posted - 2012.05.08 02:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nazim wrote:Wondering how u gaiz feel? I can make more per hour of work potentially than a pimped out uncursion fleet pre nerf. Should they heavily tax station trading and redestribute the wealth?
It takes Allot of Skill, talent desire and TIME to be successful, Most fail badly.
Most Fail badly because all they see is a huge profit margin with 30 min per day, in reality when some one comes in and tries to brute force take something over, resistance will be met, usually by some one who has bin doing that one single thing for years losses due to greed and lack patience are sure to follow.
Frankly if I cant enjoy trading, believe me I will leave, 100% guaranteed.
I left StartrekOnline, (lifetime account) and I wont hesitate to leave this one if nerfing takes the same rout that pretty much devastated that game.
Let me put it another way, I will strive to be the first to post my account details and perma quit if the devs get trolled again (playerbase gets the brunt of it) |
clamslayer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
28
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Posted - 2012.05.08 03:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
Nazim wrote:Wondering how u gaiz feel? I can make more per hour of work potentially than a pimped out uncursion fleet pre nerf. Should they heavily tax station trading and redestribute the wealth?
this chode voted for obama for sure |
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
130
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Posted - 2012.05.08 03:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
sitar seaton wrote:It is the way of the world today to increase taxes and "spread the wealth". Increasing transaction taxes 10x or more would be a great way to soak it to the rich and remove isk from the system. The result would be lower inflation, which would help the common pod pilot.
Let's bring class warfare to eve!
Actually, the result of cheap trade activity on the markets is both lower prices for the "common pod pilot" and higher buy prices for the stuff they sell to traders via buy orders. Why? Because if you have more people competing on both sides of that coin, buy prices get driven up (traders want to have their orders filled first) and sell prices go down (traders want to sell their supplies off first).
So even from a "class warfare" perspective, it doesn't make good sense to bump up transaction taxes. Remaining traders would just make "common pod pilots" pay for it anyway.
Taxes don't serve a function for the common good in EVE like they do in the real world. I don't think comparing the two is really possible. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
719
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Posted - 2012.05.08 05:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
So even from a "class warfare" perspective, it doesn't make good sense to bump up transaction taxes. Remaining traders would just make "common pod pilots" pay for it anyway.
Taxes don't serve a function for the common good in EVE like they do in the real world. I don't think comparing the two is really possible.
Trading taxes don't serve a function for the common good in RL either.
The markets are the blood that fuels all the economies. Tossing random sand in the markets cogs in the form of taxes achieves exclusively:
- A slow down of said blood. Less liquidity = less optimization = worse prices = worse competitivity on the nations involved. But try explaining this to some stupid a5s socialist we are overloaded with.
- These taxes get all immediately mirrored and moved onto the rest of the economy, expecially the end / retail users.
- Capital cannot be commanded by decree. It is as futile as grabbing water with the hands. Investors and traders just move away or circumvent it.
Examples:
- shadow banking and the resulting 2007-2008 worldwide debacles happened because (expecially in the USA) over-regulation made markets non optimal. Some big markets and expecially the liquidity just moved over to a parallel economy, where regulation did not exist. There is a regulation thresold beyond which the capital just moves to other circuits. Politician morons have to ~deal with it~.
- what "recently" happened when USA introduced more restrictions on Forex => lots of people trading on USA accounts moved to Great Britain or Hong Kong including me. The largest brokers actually offered us free moving of all our accounts overseas.
- every time some idiot governor wakes up in the morning and sets up the umpteenth market tax (instead of firing their excess state workers and reducing waste) or invents some new sand to toss in the markets cogs, investors promptly bring their capitals away and that country gets poorer as a result.
We EvE players of all should know, every time some additional cost (hidden or not) gets thrown in the economy, the affected items *immediately* become more expensive on the end buyers.
Taxes always and only impact the poorer commoneers. They are defensless against the idiocy of those governing them.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Starsnbars
Star Frontiers
Ignore This.
0
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Posted - 2012.05.08 05:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Station trading provides liquidity to the market. When I purchase something from someone that wants to sell, they get isk that they can use to buy what they want. When I relist the item I get more isk and someone can have the option to buy what they want.
In the end traders (in real life and in Eve) serve an important purpose of both seeding the market and providing the ability for individuals to both liquidate and purchase assets that they want with ease. This smooths out price swings and makes the over all market more stable.
In my mind this is a service that the game (and the real world capital markets) depend on. |
Mister Crispy
AC Enterprises
22
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Posted - 2012.05.08 07:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
So even from a "class warfare" perspective, it doesn't make good sense to bump up transaction taxes. Remaining traders would just make "common pod pilots" pay for it anyway.
Taxes don't serve a function for the common good in EVE like they do in the real world. I don't think comparing the two is really possible.
[snip]
Peter Schiff's Eve account detected.
(since that might be ambiguous, I mean it as a compliment.) |
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MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
29
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Posted - 2012.05.08 14:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:every time some idiot governor wakes up in the morning and sets up the umpteenth market tax (instead of firing their excess state workers and reducing waste) or invents some new sand to toss in the markets cogs, investors promptly bring their capitals away and that country gets poorer as a result.
Yeah, like the private capital that is pouring into Greece and how much wealthier that country is now that they've had 2 years of extreme "firing of state workers and waste reduction" (a/k/a "austerity measures").
I wonder how much else of your bloviating is flat-out wrong.
MDD |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
335
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Posted - 2012.05.08 14:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
flat rate income tax
pay for infrastructure, schools, basic healthcare, baseline social safety net, using private partnerships whenever its sensible and doesn't impinge on fundamental values of equality
pay for police and military
there, i just saved the world |
Debiru
Flashpoint Industries
Imperial Hull Tankers
10
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Posted - 2012.05.08 17:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:every time some idiot governor wakes up in the morning and sets up the umpteenth market tax (instead of firing their excess state workers and reducing waste) or invents some new sand to toss in the markets cogs, investors promptly bring their capitals away and that country gets poorer as a result. Yeah, like the private capital that is pouring into Greece and how much wealthier that country is now that they've had 2 years of extreme "firing of state workers and waste reduction" (a/k/a "austerity measures"). I wonder how much else of your bloviating is flat-out wrong. MDD
This is the kind of thinking that's going to result in Greece being ejected from the Eurozone and going further into a depression.
First of all; Private money is not going into Greece. Private money was already there. What is happening right now is that other Eurozone governments, most noteably Germany and France, as well as the IMF, are forcing those private investors to forgive parts of the debt Greece owes them, thereby reducing the % of Greece's GDP that their debt values at, in return for Greece's government implementing changes to their budget (Austerity measures) to prevent Greece from getting into an uncontrollable debt again. Should you be allowed to buy whatever you want with someone else's money and not ever change how you behave financially? No, people can't do that, we can only spend the money we have. Governments are no different. Once the money is gone, it's gone. And other governments are simply starting to hold Greece responsible for making sure it doesn't keep spending other people's money without having the ability to pay them back. At the start of the crisis, the percentage was, IIRC, something around 130%. That means the value of their debt is worth more than the total income of the nation annually. This is a situation no country should ever have gotten itself into, because there are only two options to get out of it; Default, followed by scarcity of funds and investors, resulting in a major depression, or get outside assistance, get a repression, but preserve the economy to a degree.
Greece is trying to go with the more sensible, latter option, but the populace is more concerned about preserving the comfortable lifestyle Greece's socialist-esque government has provided for the last few decades. But how did the government provide this? By pouring vast quantities of money into public sector jobs, institutes, and programs. But that money didn't come from taxes, but from outside investors, that Greece knew it wasn't going to be able to pay off. America is in a rather bitter fight right now over the same style of thinking. Democrats want to keep making new social programs (which is not bad, let me say that now), but are not thinking about the financial ramifications of it. Universal healthcare is good, don't get me wrong. But having government healthcare competing with private healthcare isn't good, nor is adding trillions (plural) of dollars to a debt that is already spiraling out of control. The money pool the government said would pay for it failed in the trial run, before even coming to implementation.
It's not private investors who destroyed Greece's economy. Private investors are what grows economies. Look at China. They have a huge investment sector and they own trillions of dollars of America's debt, along with other nations. Not to mention the thousands of businesses in the U.S. that Chinese and Japanese investors have either built, or contributed to.
It's irresponsible government - not private investors - that result in the collapse, repression, or depression, of an economy. Irresponsible government has resulted in more repressions than any natural catastrophe or failure of the private investment sector.
And before you go and call private investors the bane of the modern age again; Remember that they've existed for the last two mellinium. And more often than not, the quantity of investors is directly proportional to the growth, stability, and strength of the national economy where they reside. |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
29
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Posted - 2012.05.08 18:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
Debiru wrote:And before you go and call private investors the bane of the modern age again; Remember that they've existed for the last two mellinium. And more often than not, the quantity of investors is directly proportional to the growth, stability, and strength of the national economy where they reside.
That whooshing noise is apparently the point going over your head. I never called private investors "the bane of the modern age", and to equate their longevity with desirability is a non-sequitur. As an example, consider slavery: it has existed for many more millenia than private equity, but I hope we're agreed that slavery is a very bad thing.
My original point was to call out VV's claim (as wrong) that more layoffs and belt-tightening would prevent the flight of private capital and national wealth. I was using Greece as proof: after two years of extreme austerity, Greece's private capital situation is still terrible and the GDP is down significantly.
Mind you things would probably be better if the roughly 35 billion Euros owed in back taxes were collected. But since those are owed primarily from the wealthiest Greeks (14 billion owed by the top 4,000 offenders), and since the wealthy are the ones who control the government, I don't expect to see much success. It's easier to tax the 11 million Greeks, half of whom live annually on 12 *thousand* Euros or less.
MDD
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
302
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Posted - 2012.05.08 18:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
ahhahaha this ****ing thread
*busts out the popcorn* |
Gnast
Cohortes Vigilum
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.05.08 19:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Anyhow; increase in tax will be factored into prices. Traders will retain their margins while the customers pay the price.
Not quite OP intention. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
717
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 19:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
Debiru wrote:This is the kind of thinking that's going to result in Greece being ejected from the Eurozone and going further into a depression.
Meanwhile, the fed and ecb loan money to these private banks at 0%, I.e. print like crazy, invisibly, you get to pay for it all anyway.
Welcome to the scam. |
Debiru
Flashpoint Industries
Imperial Hull Tankers
10
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Posted - 2012.05.08 19:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
[quote=MailDeadDrop]That whooshing noise is apparently the point going over your head. I never called private investors "the bane of the modern age", and to equate their longevity with desirability is a non-sequitur. As an example, consider slavery: it has existed for many more millenia than private equity, but I hope we're agreed that slavery is a very bad thing.Quote:
Do you know the history of slavery? Slavery in Africa and America was far far different from the forms of slavery found in the Middle East in the first millennia. The former was oppressive, cruel, and slaves were obtained through abduction. The latter was a form of servitude in order to pay off a debt to society as punishment for a crime, or to pay off one's debts, and cruelty to a person's slaves was a criminal offense in most places. It was a form of indentured servitude, but done properly, unlike the British settlers' version.
[quote=MailDeadDrop]
My original point was to call out VV's claim (as wrong) that more layoffs and belt-tightening would prevent the flight of private capital and national wealth. I was using Greece as proof: after two years of extreme austerity, Greece's private capital situation is still terrible and the GDP is down significantly.
Yes, because any country's economy fixes itself from a 130% debt-to-GDP in 2 years.
Layoffs and belt-tightening is necessary in a country like Greece, where a very large portion of the populace is employed in the public sector, not the private, and the government is drowning in debt.
As for the taxation, yes, there are always tax problems. But I'm not going to delve into that particular part of the topic without a fair amount of research. Just remember that media doesn't always do its homework, and when it does, it doesn't always report it accurately or truthfully. |
Heimdallofasgard
T.O.R.
160
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 20:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Debiru wrote:This is the kind of thinking that's going to result in Greece being ejected from the Eurozone and going further into a depression.
Meanwhile, the fed and ecb loan money to these private banks at 0%, I.e. print like crazy, invisibly, you get to pay for it all anyway. Welcome to the scam.
That whole "Quantitive Easing" thing was fed to us in the UK media 2 years ago as a good thing, "getting money into circulation again" they said. When actually it's just putting more money into the system without any capital to back it up with, therefore devaluing the money its citizens are given.
what do you guys think about commodity linked currencies? like the gold standard?
Kick Heim. |
Barakach
R-ISK
Shadow Operations.
67
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Posted - 2012.05.08 20:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
"Universal healthcare is good, don't get me wrong. But having government healthcare competing with private healthcare isn't good, nor is adding trillions (plural) of dollars to a debt that is already spiraling out of control. The money pool the government said would pay for it failed in the trial run, before even coming to implementation."
Most countries with Universal healthcare not only pay less but also provide better and quicker services. If you're looking to to cut fat, look at the military. In 5 years, we spent enough on the military to pay for health-care and college for 10 years for everyone of age in the USA.
The military doesn't look big in the USA budget because anything that pertains with war does not have to come from the budget. They can just spend it and worry about the fallout later. Anything that has to do with war is effectively put on a credit card with no spending cap.
Social Security plus Medicare plus Welfare combined, doesn't even come close to our yearly war expenditures. |
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